Do you feel like you deserve bad treatment?

[musicfan42]

I started this topic in another thread however Scout99 suggested to me that it merited its own thread

I'm starting to ask myself do nons want to be treated badly?

I firmly believe that codependency is self-destructive.

Nons act like they want to be treated badly by in a variety of ways:

-exhibiting codependent behaviors

-trying to rescue the borderline

-tolerating emotional abuse

-putting up with unacceptable behavior

-not taking care of our own needs

-taking their devaluation as a personal affront instead of stepping back and detaching and realizing that it's just something they do in every romantic relationship-that it doesn't reflect who we are as people, that it's just a borderline's distorted view of us and may or may not be true... that it is emotional reasoning... an opinion as opposed to an actual fact. Borderlines haven't learned that feelings are not facts


-enabling borderlines-making excuses for their bead behavior

-trying to solve the borderline's problems instead of making them take personal responsibility for their own lives

-trying to soothe the borderline when they really have to start soothing themselves

-deriving self-esteem from our role as rescuer/fixer instead of developing genuine self-esteem from having a core sense of self... . from our achievements, our experiences etc. as opposed to our ability to "fix" one person

-not listening to our gut instinct and instead giving the person the benefit of the doubt

-having too much loyalty towards the person yet not getting that same loyalty in return

-staying in a one-sided relationship where our needs are not being met


-not realizing that we deserve better... that we are worthy... that it's not our job to "fix" someone else... that everyone has to be responsible for themselves

-believing words over actions

-trying to fix someone over and over again despite the failure of past attempts... not learning from past experiences... repeating the same mistake over and over again

-not listening to well-being friends and family who tell us that the person is "bad news" and thinking that we know better... no, we don't... we need to take advice from other people and realize that we don't know everything

-trying to psychoanalyze a borderline even though we're not professionals... we don't have phDs, we're not a psychiatrist etc... it's NOT our job to analyze them and come up with explanations as to why borderlines do certain things

-not moving on... ruminating... thinking of the borderline instead of getting on with our own lives


I'm actually getting tired of threads where people focus solely on the borderline's behavior... what about our own behavior? Society use words like "doormat" and "walkover" to describe codependent behaviors and I think that needs to be discussed here more.

I hated the words "codependent", "doormat" and walkover" before. I was in F.O.G. I felt that I was "selfish" or "a bad person" for asserting myself and having needs of my own. I was regularly told as a child that I was "a bhit" for expressing my own opinion so that had an indelible effect on my personality. In one sense, it made me incredibly feisty however in another sense, it made me attracted to "takers" in relationships.

I was in denial before too. I felt that the word "doormat" was too harsh-that it shouldn't be applied to me, just other people  

I would like to get a dialogue going on this issue with other members!  

I have a few questions-

Recovering From Codependency

-when did you realize that being codependent was a self-destructive habit?

-how did you begin to recover from codependency? What things have been useful for you in your recovery?

-do you feel guilty for taking care of yourself?

-how do you overcome that false/misplaced guilt that's triggered by taking care of yourself?

[Rose Tiger]

You know the saying 'love your neighbor as you love yourself'?  That needs to be turned around for codependents into 'love yourself as you love your neighbors'.

[Cumulus]

Very succinct RoseTiger!  Thank you musicfan for posting these thoughts and questions. The points you made were like barbed arrows of truth to me when I read them.

I can with certainty say no, I don't feel like I deserve bad treatment. Why then did I stay is the question, and at what cost to myself. I certainly tolerated all of the behaviours that you noted in your post.

I have been in only one relationship where I tolerated such behaviour and that was my 35 year marriage to my xBPDh. So, I have not been replacing one dysfunctional partner with another but rather trying to make my dysfunctional partner "normal".  For me it was the perfect storm of circumstances that partnered me with him. I grew up in a very dysfunctional family with little or no emotional support or love, I was young and needy of love. I had just broken up with my high school sweetie and was vulnerable. I was finishing college, the youngest in my class by two years and felt pressure to get engaged like many of my class mates. I met him and he pursued me relentlessly. I rebuffed him for several months until my room mate left for the summer. I was sucked in to the vortex of "love" and neediness.  I knew how to do neediness and confused it with love.

I have a personality abundant with love, compassion, empathy, loyalty, optimism and independence. I obviously don't give up easily and I thought he was deserving of all of my devotion because he didn't drink, he was faithful and he was honest. Those were my only boundaries. It was eventually finding out that no he didn't drink that made me leave.

It really wasn't until months later that I began to recognize how unhealthy my behaviours were. The very behaviours you noted. Over the years I lost myself. I lost my ability to truly care, I lost my ability to reason, I lost my ability to understand what love is, I lost my ability to recognize my own needs, to cry or to feel anger, I lost my passion for life, not just in an intimate sense but one involving all the senses. But I had such a strong and forceful personality that I was able to  emulate it to such a degree that not only were others not aware but I had fooled myself as well. It was arriving at that understanding that allowed me to begin knocking down walls and rebuilding my self.

So that was my one and only relationship in which I allowed myself to be abused. I am now educated, I have resources and wisdom obtained from the hard work of self examination. My job now is to empower my daughters. I did better for them than my mother did for me. Now I stand beside them teaching them and encouraging them to do better again with their children. The cycle of emotional abuse will stop here in my family.

Cumulus. 

[musicfan42]

Thanks for your responses guys! 

RoseTiger-I totally agree! I actually had the same thought myself before so it's really coincidental that you mention it now!

Cumulus-I think you sound like a such a strong woman-to leave a long marriage and start working on yourself... . that type of thing takes a lot of courage and you should be applauded for it! I like what you say about ending the cycle and wanting to empower your daughters! I think it's great that you're willing to learn. You're right-self-examination IS hard work.

I understand how my points seemed like barbed arrows of truth. I used to hate the words "doormat" and "walkover" because I secretly feared that I was those very things. But yesterday, I thought "why am I so afraid of those words?" and really just faced my fear there. I wrote about my codependency from an objective viewpoint, not an emotional one. I thought "okay... what would a stranger say about my behavior-someone who had no loyalty to me, someone who didn't even know me... someone unbiased in other words". It was tough to write my post-I wouldn't have been able to write it even a few months ago. I wasn't ready then... I wasn't at that stage. I feel like I'm peeling my issues back a layer at a time. 

[Blazing Star]

Great thread musicfan!

Thoughtful questions too:

I have a few questions-

Recovering From Codependency

-when did you realize that being codependent was a self-destructive habit?

-how did you begin to recover from codependency? What things have been useful for you in your recovery?

-do you feel guilty for taking care of yourself?

-how do you overcome that false/misplaced guilt that's triggered by taking care of yourself?

For me it was only at the beginning of this BPD journey that I consciously reaslised that being CoDep was self-destructive. (I think, or like to believe, that I was aware on a deeper level that it was unhealthy). And understanding that I had a lot of self value attached to my role of helping others was a lightbulb moment for me, this has been hard to untangle to make it healthy.

Reading, awareness, and my T have helped me in my recovery.

Yes sometimes I feel guilty for taking care of myself, more of mama guilt kind of stuff, so I do force myself!

I overcome this by reminding myself how important it is, how I Do Not want to fall back into the Martyr role either! That I am number one and need to take care of myself before I can take care of my family, it sure can be uncomfortable at times, but it is getting easier too!

How about you? How would you answer your own questions?

Love Blazing Star

[musicfan42]

Thanks Blazing Star for your response

I realized that codependency was an issue years ago. I read "Codependent No More" back then however I hated it. It's only now that I can actually stand to read the book and not be triggered by it. I felt that it was very wishy-washy-that it was fine in theory but not in practice. I didn't like the term "codependent" either. I felt that the 12 step format was fine for addiction but not so great for interpersonal relationships.

Once I started doing assertiveness training, things fell into place. I feel like the word "codependent" demonizes people who just have weak/spongy boundaries. I don't think it's an addiction but merely a learned behavior that someone can unlearn. I've talked about that before here so I'm not going to ramble on about it again but you get the idea.

I found DBT really helpful actually. I know that it's designed specifically for borderlines however I found the interpersonal effectiveness section really easy to use. I even found DEARMAN easy because I had previously read complicated books on assertiveness and thought "oh I'll never get the hang of this". It's like DBT simplifies all these helpful coping tools in easy-to-remember acronyms.

I tried other things, don't get me wrong but that was the most useful thing for me personally.

I still feel guilty for taking care of myself however that sense of guilt is lessening the more time goes on. So I think it's just a matter of "practice makes perfect".

I think that I overcame that false/misplaced guilt by setting firmer boundaries-realizing that I wasn't responsible for other people and that I couldn't fix the entire world, just myself!

[Scout99]

Thanks musicfan42 for creating this important thread!

For me it took a three year long walking on eggshell kind of relationship with a narcissist and being in a state of total devastation after the freezing discard and a lot of therapy to finally come to the conclusion that I was having problems with myself!

I have always thought I grew up in a very loving home, an only child with two loving parents devoting their lives to me... . What could really be wrong with that picture?

Apparently a lot!

What I didn't understand then, but I do now is that my mother pretty much consumed my self for herself... . She really didn't know, (and still doesn't), where she ended and I began, and it grew into a very enmeshed relationship... . Apart from that she also had a very unstable mood. That is when she was happy, she was very loving and attentive of me. But when she was not happy, it felt to me like her love also vanished... .

To a large degree her happiness was also connected to me doing what she wanted and she even expected me to like and think just like she did... . I was really supposed to be a bit of a mini-her... .

Now as a child I quickly learned that in order to get my mothers love I had to keep her happy, so I made it my job to do just that... . Pleasing her in every way I could think of... .

My father didn't treat me quite the same way. He was more laid back, and in a way, that made me feel more at ease with him, while at the same time craving my mothers liking since she was more, how shall I put it, bombastic or passionate in her way of loving and appreciating me, when I pleased her... .

But it was also a bit of walking on eggshells, since my mom of course picked up on my comfort level being with my dad, making her extremely jealous. So showing affection towards my father came with a price... . And I often found myself defending him, when she became jealous and at the same time trying even harder to please her to make amends from my disloyalty in loving my dad too... .

In my adolescence I did make an attempt to break free... . I was creative and artistic and wanted to pursue that as a profession... . Which of course was not met with any enthusiasm on my mothers part, (even though it was because of her putting me in all these artistic classes when I was a kid that was the reason I wanted to continue in that field... .  ).

She instead wanted me to do what she wanted for herself when she was my age, and she had no interest in anything artistic... . So she gave me the silent treatment for the better part of a year I took acting classes just to name one example. She also, usually in outbursts of hysterical proportions, used to threaten to leave my father, with the really screwed up reasoning that he and I would be better off without her since I didn't want to do as she told me to?

I fought it for a while, broke contact, moved abroad for a year... . But ended up defending my father, who really should have stood up for me at this time, but instead begged me to come home since my mother was so depressed by all this... .

And eventually I chose to leave my dreams on the shelf (for more than 20 years), and instead pursued a career in a field that would please her, to salvage their marriage... .

I realize now that is the point where I truly abandoned myself, and quit living and instead began to exist... . for whomever had any need of me... .

This is also a time of my life I have very few memories from, so I realize today it was a time of turmoil for me, that I had buried for a long time... .

Needless to say it taught me some pretty warped ideas of what an intimate relationship is supposed to be about... . Me pleasing the other party. And the other party being happy because of it and in return rewarding me with passionate affection and appreciation... . in short, validating me... .

It is only a few years ago I began to realize how this whole treatment during my upbringing pretty much had robbed me of my identity... . I did not have an unstable sense of self, like a pw BPD... . I was actually worse off... . I had no identity... .

I couldn't even say what kind of music or what kind of food I really liked, Let alone what I really wanted to do in my life. And definitely not how to be in a relationship... . (I was however an expert of figuring out what the person asking me of it would like me to answer)... .  

But I knew one thing! I knew how to please another person and I could pretty much like a chameleon fit into any type of social situation... .

That is until I met my narcissist bf... . Since with him there were simply no pay off at the end... . once the idealization phase was over... . There was no reward at all for all of my efforts to please him! And that left me more lost and bewildered than I had ever felt before... . I felt that if he abandoned me I was no one... . so I tried everything I had... . to no avail... . The end of that relationship did not just leave me heartbroken... . I, as in myself was broken to the core of my being... . I felt like I was no one... . Or at least I didn't know who I was... .

I had not been abandoned as a child... . I had abandoned myself... . And now I had to find her... .

The thing is... . my trained pleasing behavior worked in the family setting where I was brought up... . And in real life it pretty much worked too... . Most people like to be pleased, and there usually is a reward to be collected at the end of that too... . It became somewhat comfortable to keep it up, I mean we tend to keep behaviors as long as they pay off. And it did... . It was just that it was on the expense of abandoning myself... .

Going through the different stages of finding myself again and defining who I really am through therapy and a lot of self discovering has been without a doubt some of the hardest and most painful things I have ever done... . And I am only half way there yet, as it feels today... . It pretty much means staying in a zone of discomfort all the time going against my instincts in pretty much every situation. And some days I am exhausted just from having to make all these decisions about what I want and how I feel! I am used to just going along with whatever other people want from me or feels. And it is at times still tempting to do so... . Because I don't have to be responsible at all in the way I have to when I have to be... . me... .

When I saw all this, It became clear to me why I was drawn into relationships with ___ed up men... . Usually because they were better at copying my mothers behavior, and reward me with a lot of passion, intensity and if lucky also intimacy... .

So I can pretty much say that I have not been co-dependent. I learned that love was something you had to pay a price for. And the price was pleasing. And the more I pleased, the bigger the reward... . I simply just learned that love was conditional... . And I accepted it, because I was a good pleaser... .

When in relationships with men who really have treated me well from an objective perspective, I have often after a while begun to feel bored... . There is just not enough magic or passion, a.k.a... . not enough of reward for my efforts... . I stuck it out for ten years with a really decent man who I am still friends with, but I left him in the end, because my feelings just dropped... . He did not want me to please him at all... . And then in the end I just didn't understand what I was supposed to do... . Today I can see that it was because that really left me all alone with my lost identity... . And that was an uncomfortable place to be in... .

Don't get me wrong here... . I have never been someone you could push around in a workplace or in doing what I am asked to do... . I can be quite assertive... . But in matters of the heart and when it boils down to what I want, think or feel on a personal level - I have been completely clueless!

Today a lot has changed! I am back in university, studying what I at least think I really want to do. I enjoy myself at least sometimes and I live in a completely different way from before... . Still a bit curious about where I will end up... .   And still sometimes very uncomfortable about having to ask myself what I want, and accept the frustration at times I just don't know the answer... . I have startled many of my friends by saying "no" sometimes, they almost react as if I want to piss them off... . , since they are so used to me just going along with whatever they want... . But the good ones have learned to cope and enjoy the "new" me too... . And that helps me keep going... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

[talithacumi]

I've reached a point in my recovery where I not only know, but also genuinely (finally!) feel like I never "deserved" to be treated badly.

But I'm also at a point where I can see how - growing up with an uNPD/BPD rager of a nightmare mom - I was taught, learned, became habituated to, and felt like it was "normal" for me to be treated this way - that I (not surprisingly under the circumstances) subconsciously associated this kind of treatment with being "loved" - and just as subconsciously, therefore, tended to look for/attach myself romantically to partners who treated me and made me feel that way (at least to some extent) as well.

In that way, while I never actually felt or believed I ever deserved to be treated badly, I do think I asked for it by looking for, and being attracted primarily to people who treated me that way, ignoring/denying/dismissing/excusing/taking the blame for being treated that way by them in any one of several equally co-dependent/self-deprecating ways, and reinforcing the acceptability of being treated this way by continuing to let them treat me this way pretty much for as long as they were willing, able, interested in doing so.

It took me a very long time to recognize and own up to how my own programming/core identity played into both my initial interest in, and ability to sustain this kind of relationship for over 12 years as well as why I was so devastated/hung on so long unable to move forward after it was over.

Owning that, however, allowed the still emotionally underdeveloped inner lonely child part of me to feel like we were even enough for me to finally be able let go of the sense of inequity and associated resentment/anger that had been keeping me still very much attached to my ex for almost three years.

I still have resentment/anger about other things which is, of course, keeping me attached. But much less than before, and with this success, am more committed/hopeful than ever that I'll eventually find a way to be free of him altogether.

[Rose Tiger]

That brings up another thought, about how some of us never had protection growing up, not only at home but say a bully at school or teachers that bullied.  

In seventh grade english I was reading a book totally engrossed and the teacher pulled the chair out from under me screaming that he told us to clean up.  It never entered my brain to tell someone about this.    I never had anyone stand up for me.  It makes the world a very scary place when anyone at anytime can abuse you and there is nothing you can do about it.  There must be a vibe that goes out that tells the world, it's ok to be cruel to this one.  Blech.

After I got my dog a couple years ago, my ex who had been physically abusive to me, went to tickle me.  The dog jumped up (he's big) and knocked ex's arms off of me.  Totally cool to be protected. Even from tickling.  Lord help anyone who tries to harm me with that dog around.  Feels good!

I suppose the codependence formed to attempt to make the world a safer place.  Trying to keep ex happy was my attempt to protect myself.  The inability to stand up for myself and say that is not cool to treat me like that because if I did, the underlying message was that he'd leave.  But no matter what I tried, he emotionally abandoned me anyway.  Weird how I kept trying to get people that can't love, to love me.  And feel it was because I was unlovable.  It's great to finally see the pattern and break free of it.

[musicfan42]

Thanks guys for your comments!   It's really nice to talk to people here who are also focused on personal growth!

I understand that it's helpful to look back and see where your communication style originated-whether that is a passive/passive-aggressive/assertive/aggressive communication style. I think it makes sense-that you have to understand the problem before you can fix it.

I was reading recently that communication style is not only influenced by your environment growing up but also by your temperament and by your personality. The book gave an example of how two men grew up in a house where the father was an aggressive communicator. Son #1 subsequently adopted an aggressive communication style as he felt that he had to get his needs met at any cost. Son #2 adopted a passive communication style because he was afraid of his father's anger and realized that if he stayed quiet, then his father would stop raging. This made him be afraid to rock the boat and want to keep the peace in different situations.

I'm going to read more books on this issue as I find reading examples like that is really helpful!


Scout99-It's interesting that you say that you're assertive in some areas of your life but maybe less so in other areas. I feel that I'm the same-that I have firm boundaries in many areas of my life but that I need to brush up on it in my personal life. That's another reason why I feel that codependency terminology can be sometimes undermining and unhelpful. It's important to also focus on our strengths and to build up what we already have. To recognize that we are doing many things right already and not just berate ourselves for human error. I feel that it's important to get a balance between validating ourselves for our strengths vs working on problem areas.

I also can relate to what you say about how pwBPD have an unstable sense of self but that you felt you had no sense of self at all. That comment really resonated with me. I didn't feel that I had an internal compass or a map guiding me in life. I felt very cast adrift so I almost looked to other people for guidance really. I wasn't attuned to my thoughts/emotions/gut instinct years ago... I didn't trust myself let alone know what my emotional needs were. It's been a process, figuring that out-uncovering my thoughts, feelings, gut instinct and emotional needs. It's as if I'm unpeeling an onion, layer by layer.


talithacumi-You really hit the nail on the head there! That you learned that it was "normal" for you to be treated that way and that you subconsciously associated that kind of treatment with being "loved". The word "subconsciously" is really important because I think nobody deliberately becomes codependent-it just sort of... happens, unbeknownst to yourself and it's only after interpersonal difficulties that you start assessing your life and then you uncover all this stuff that you didn't even realize was there in the first place! I think that's probably why it's so important that we all treat ourselves kindly in this process as it is hard work!

I can understand where you're coming from when you say that you still have resentment/anger. I'm relieved that you've said that as I've really struggled with feelings of anger and resentment. I feel like a lot of people here talk about many different emotions but that anger isn't mentioned enough. Maybe it's a societal no-no... that anger is deemed an unacceptable emotion?  I don't know-that's just a guess! I don't think there's anything wrong with anger though provided that you handle it appropriately. I think that identifying and naming all emotions, including anger is really such a healthy thing to do.


Rose Tiger-I was about to post my comment when I noticed your response! Good job too as your comment is so insightful! There is a lot of wisdom in what you say-there were times for me too where nobody stood up for me and many times when I felt completely alone and unprotected. It made me cling to anyone who I thought would protect me because without that, I was going to be totally on my own. I didn't realize that I had a fear of abandonment until my BPD ex mentioned his!  

I agree with you that codependency can be an unconscious way of trying to stay in control-of attempting to make the world a safer place as you say. I totally know what you mean when you say "I kept trying to get people that can't love, to love me. And feel it was because I was unlovable". Omg yes! I would think "what's wrong with me?" I'd literally sit there and try to work out what was "wrong" with me. It's so sad to reflect back on now but as you say, it's great to see the pattern and break free of it.

[Rose Tiger]

If you are interested in seeing a movie that plays out the whole codependence process, from beginning to healing, check out End of Innocence with Dyan Cannon.  It's her autobiography story and it might ring a lot of bells for you.

[Dave44]

In a sad way -- yes. Honestly for me, if I can't "help" or "fix" my partner in some way shape or form I don't know why she'd want me. If I don't have that to offer what do I have to offer? The relationship seems pointless and meaningless unless there's problems for me to step up to the plate and fix. Therefore -- I accept emotional abuse... .

[Rose Tiger]

Dave  :'(  You have intelligence, kindness, a soft heart, that is A LOT.

Pondering this more, the big thing on this site, a main point is 'we teach others how to treat us'.  This is what I'm pondering, how do we teach others to treat us right?  Boundaries against the unsafe folks, check.  But that vibe, how to turn it around?  The whole power thing.  Like Gisele and Tom Brady, net worth $350M, tons of respect.  But I have more like $3.50.  Hitler, Osama, narcissists extraordinaire, terror, abuse, that got respect.  As my T says, I couldn't hurt a fly, and that's true, I couldn't, so being a dictactor arsehole is out.  A baby demands respect, just by being so... . so... . I don't know, dignified.  If that makes sense.

How do we teach people to treat us with dignity and respect?  I see how BPD ex did it, by being a unlit powderkeg, ready to go off any minute.  The narcissist, garnering support for the very bad ex and we rush to their side to champion 'poor them'.  It's like we are all after that power to not be treated like crap.  And yes, it is exhausting to always be on the lookout for it, was that a dig?  Was that a swipe?  Am I being too assertive?  How do others do this so effortlessly?  I'm ready for a cabin in the woods, tend a garden and just live in peace.  

[musicfan42]

Thanks for the recommendation Rose Tiger!

I think you're really honest Dave and that's a nice quality to have. Codependents tend to base their self-worth on their ability to fix other peoples' problems. It's good that you're here, seeking support.

No one deserves emotional abuse. You are a human being so you have a right to be treated with respect and dignity. You have inherent worth just by the fact that you're a human being. Rose Tiger mentions that celebrities and political figures have a lot of power in society however authority figures may abuse their powers so that's all the more reason why everyone needs to be assertive and demand to be treated with respect.

[Rose Tiger]

I think some of it, too, is letting bad behavior be owned by the disrespectful person.  That shows what they are, the behavior reflects their inner self.  Not letting it take us down a peg just because another throws some crap our way.  I mean, not letting others dictact our worth.

I put up with some awful treatment from the ex, all over the fear of being alone.  My T had to practically drag me away, kicking and screaming.  Because of this deep intense fear.  Turns out it wasn't that bad, I had it built up much bigger than it really has been.  Other things and people fill the void.  The further out you get, the more you wish you had left a lot sooner.

[Scout99]

musicfan42 wrote:

Scout99-It's interesting that you say that you're assertive in some areas of your life but maybe less so in other areas. I feel that I'm the same-that I have firm boundaries in many areas of my life but that I need to brush up on it in my personal life. That's another reason why I feel that codependency terminology can be sometimes undermining and unhelpful. It's important to also focus on our strengths and to build up what we already have. To recognize that we are doing many things right already and not just berate ourselves for human error. I feel that it's important to get a balance between validating ourselves for our strengths vs working on problem areas.

Yes... . this part was the hardest shell to break in myself when I began i therapy... . My instinct told me I was assertive, and I was and am - in areas that are not about relationships or come close to my heart, if you will... . But totally the opposite when it comes to relationships.

In the beginning I had a hard time accepting that fact... . And felt wrong all over the board so to speak... . But instead - just like you put it. We need to use our strengths! And I just needed to learn, and am still learning how to transfer my assertiveness in other areas also into matters of the heart... . It is tough work... . and it feels at times as going totally against everything I ave up to now believed to be true... . but I need it... .

Glad to here someone else could relate to it, since sometimes I have felt a bit alone in this... .

And I agree with you that the term co dependency does not fully explain this, or doesn't quite fit the bill... . this really goes deeper than that... . I believe... .

musicfan42 wrote:

I also can relate to what you say about how pwBPD have an unstable sense of self but that you felt you had no sense of self at all. That comment really resonated with me. I didn't feel that I had an internal compass or a map guiding me in life. I felt very cast adrift so I almost looked to other people for guidance really. I wasn't attuned to my thoughts/emotions/gut instinct years ago... I didn't trust myself let alone know what my emotional needs were. It's been a process, figuring that out-uncovering my thoughts, feelings, gut instinct and emotional needs. It's as if I'm unpeeling an onion, layer by layer.

Yes! Exactly like that! First unpeeling the onion to find out what the core of me really is... . to get reconnected with the person, I once abandoned... . And then start listening to her, and let her guide me in choosing what new layers to put on, instead of the band aid versions I have been carrying around... .

it is a hard job too, that sometimes however also can be quite funny, when I discover something I never before realized I liked or found important... . The hard part is to keep listening to that still weak inner voice of the true me, and not fall back into old habits... .

Must say too - very interesting posts in this thread! I hope it will live on for a while!

Best Wishes

Scout99

[MaybeSo]

Recovering From Codependency

-when did you realize that being codependent was a self-destructive habit?

I think it started to sink in and I had some ah-ha moments about two years into the relationship with my ex and after about one year of posting on this board, mostly on staying. I was ranting about what a jerk my ex was being... . and I started to get a lot of really strong feedback that basically said, if he's such a complete jerk... . what the heck is going on with you that you are staying in this dynamic with him?  I realized I was kind of being a jerk myself (who loves someone that they are describing as possibly evil or predatory?) I began to realize that I had some issues with fixing and staying really obsessed and preoccupied with HIS behavior exclusively and was doing nothing to make myself more comfortable, happy, at ease and my boundaries were very confused... . I started slowly to get in touch with ownership of my own life and my own choices.  It took about two years of reading this site and lots of books and articles and it was the first time I really started to have light bulb moments about what the word "CD" really was about. I'd heard and used the word loosely for years... . but, I really didn't get it until I was in this r/s and talking about it on this board.

-how did you begin to recover from codependency? What things have been useful for you in your recovery?

By turning my focus onto my own  self-care. What makes me happy? What feeds my soul? What made me happy before I met my ex? What does it mean to take care of myself? Am I getting enough rest, eating well, exercise, balancing work with relaxation?  If I say NO to any of these with the excuse that "I'm just so overwhelmed with XYZ that I can't take care of myself... . that's my #1 cue that my issues with CD are starting to make an appearance.  Seriously, I didn't go to the dentist or a doctor appt. for like 5 years because I was too busy and stressed out with my ex.  That is just B.S.  If I'm not taking care of myself, then I'm not being a grown up. No excuses.

-do you feel guilty for taking care of yourself?

If it's basic health and life issues, it actually makes me feel better; I notice my self esteem goes up almost immediately when I exercise, get rest, eat good food, create a safe home for myself, etc. when I take care of my basic needs I feel better and more at ease.  Sometimes it means cutting out time that I may have used to work or provide for others, so, maybe a little guilt, but the pay off is pretty immediate because it makes me feel like I'm on the right path.  If I do something to take care of myself in a relationship that involves saying No or disappointing someone else... . I do feel a sensation in my body almost immediately that I call 'guilt' or 'anxiety'. I try to just notice it as a feeling,  and not give it as much power over my behavior as I use to.  I consider it, but I don't let it drive the bus.

-how do you overcome that false/misplaced guilt that's triggered by taking care of yourself?

I think you have to accept the discomfort of sitting with the feeling and just noticing it without judging it or acting on it. Any feeling is a packet of energy that resides in the body, it comes and it goes.  I try to just let it come, and then it goes... . no feeling lasts forever.  I try not to take it as seriously as I used to. I try not to 'fix it'.  I just let be there until it's not. It can be pretty uncomfortable for a while, but it doesn't last forever.

[musicfan42]

Rose Tiger-I think you were really brave to leave the relationship. It's natural to have a fear of being alone, especially after you're used to being in a relationship however I think it's good that you decided to take the leap and leave the relationship. I totally agree with you that the fear of being alone is much worse than the actual reality of being alone. I didn't want to be alone because I worried that I'd spend too much time thinking by myself. I can be quite obsessive about things so my way of overcoming that was always to keep busy, to distract myself. I feel that I've been in relationships and friendships in the past purely to distract myself from my own issues as opposed to actually having a good connection with the person. It was easier for me to focus on other peoples' issues as opposed to my own issues. I felt in control when I gave people advice whereas I felt a real sense of helplessness/powerlessness when it came to my own problems. I still don't discuss my problems with people very often.

I discussed a FOO (Family of Origin) issue a while back with someone however the conversation didn't go well at all. I felt that the person invalidated me and my experience and it left me utterly inconsolable that day. I experienced such anger, rage... such hurt! I still find it hard talking about my FOO issues. I can talk about my own issues like my struggle to find a stable sense of identity for ages and not feel uncomfortable however the FOO issues trigger me. I know that's because there's still a lot of emotional pain there. I'm being gentle with myself by not forcing it... by realizing that I'm not ready to talk about it in detail and just giving myself space to process it. I tend to push myself a lot however I'm realizing that I also have to respect my personal limitations-that I have to say "look I don't feel safe dealing with this just yet" to myself and feel okay about that. I actually try not to think about FOO issues so much and just focus on the present because I find that dwelling on the FOO issues tends to lead to constant rumination, feelings like sadness, anger etc, self-destructive behaviors. I hope that I get to a point where I can deal with my feelings around my FOO issues without acting those feelings out. I can deal with my feelings in the present however I feel utterly flummoxed when I think of the past.

Scout99-how do you do quote pieces of text multiple times?

I know what you mean when you say that you have felt a bit alone in this. I had an enmeshed relationship with my mother so that's where my codependent behavior came from. I had an antagonistic relationship with my father so that made me somewhat aggressive in other areas of life. I struggled to find a balance so it was such a relief when I learned that I could be assertive.

I was reading a book called "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Manuel J. Smith. It mentioned that there are different types of relationships. There is a defined structure for interactions in the workplace whereas in your personal life, there isn't. I felt a sense of relief reading that because I thought "oh there's a reason why I find relationships harder to navigate". I knew before that I was seeking structure in my personal life but I didn't really know why until I read that passage. I thought "aha! I get it now".

I can relate when you say that it feels like you're going against everything you believed before. I've felt like that before however you have the right to change your mind. I actually think it's psychologically healthy to demonstrate some flexibility-to not lock yourself into all or nothing thinking and be open to new possibilities.

Change feels very scary though. It feels uncomfortable. It's hard to tolerate that discomfort-to not just go back to my old ways. I've gone back to my old ways at times and then felt an enormous sense of guilt and self-hatred afterwards. I tend to expect perfection of myself-that I'll do everything perfectly so I've felt disappointed with myself for lapsing back into old ways again.

I'm getting good at seeking support though. I used to think that I had to do all this on my own. I was in therapy however I didn't discuss my feelings with anyone in my actual life and that was hard. I would have a 1hr session with a therapist but then I'd feel alone the rest of the week. I had huge issues asking for help. I felt embarrassed, ashamed so that was a huge obstacle to overcome. I also worried that people would judge me. I was in a 12 step group and they had a slogan "principles not personalities" and that has helped me so much. It basically means to focus on working on your own issues as opposed to seeking validation from others. They say to apply it to the 12 step meeting however I actually apply it to my whole life now.

You mention "the weak inner voice of the true me". I feel that the voice of the true me has gotten stronger over time but even now, I can  still succumb to old habits. It's interesting that you use the word "weak" because I tend to feel that my true self is weak... vulnerable. That was the reason I used all sorts of defense mechanisms in the first place... to mask that emotional vulnerability. I can be so strong in some ways yet so sensitive in others. I try not to box myself into one category though because I feel that everyone is three dimensional... that we can all have many different personal qualities.

I notice that you say too: "to get reconnected with the person I once abandoned". Yes, I can totally relate to this. I felt abandoned by my father so that caused me to abandon myself in turn. I felt that if he didn't love me, then there must be something wrong with me. It made me feel a lot of shame about my identity so I tried to be someone else. It took me time to see things from an objective viewpoint-that his parental failures were not my fault.

maybeso-wow, I really like your answers there. I still struggle with feelings of guilt for taking care of myself so I definitely appreciate your insight into handling that. That's pretty much why I started this thread in the first place-to see what tactics people used to overcome that sense of guilt. As I was saying before, I used to find it hard to ask for help whereas now I'm more inclined to say "ok, I'm struggling here, I need help" and reach out for the help.

[Rose Tiger]

Interesting revelations MF.  I've been reading the Divergent series for fun.  In it, the main character joins a group called the Dauntless.  They are put through some rigorous training to overcome their fears by using aversion therapy, by facing the fears, they fear has less of an affect on them.  Just another thing I've been thinking about lately, facing fears to overcome them. 

[delusionalxox]

Thank you for this.

I have been split in my feelings about the bad treatment I received. I was with a very projective uBPD/narc who threw back at me all the (correct) criticisms and observations I made about how unbalanced the relationship was, how much I was expected to take and give.

I had a very abusive FOO. A mother who told me constantly how I had ruined her life, how I was ungrateful, ugly, ridiculous. I adopted the victim pose and was bullied at school too. It's a bit of a sad tale really.

I covered it up with a veneer of gloss as I got older. UBPD ex tapped into my worst fear at the end: that I am indeed ugly, crazy, horrible, a bhit who will always be alone.

I still cry every day feeling these feelings of intense loneliness and unworthiness.

But I know there is a different side to me too. One that is kind and that tried to make things work and look after someone as I wanted to be looked after. It was misguided. But it was an attempt to create something good.

I need, need need to look after myself, heal the terrible pain I am in day and night. The fear that wakes me up at night, that I am nothing, worthless. That life will erase me. I need to find kindness to myself, somewhere.

With uBPD ex I veered constantly between forgiveness/doormat behaviour and attacks of rage where I would leave him and tell him exactly what I thought of him. This led to accusations of me being the crazy one, a 'psychopath', a bhit, a nightmare. He saw himself as a hero putting up with me. Whereas in fact I was funding the entire relationship; I provided the home, the food, even his clothes a lot of the time; I am the one who (just about!) holds down a job and brings up kids. He was not the hero. But he made me feel what I thought I was all along. A total piece of ___... . yet he put up with me.

How's that for amessage from the FOO :D 'you are unlovable, but you are mine'. My mother's message.

I hope for us all, that healing can come. Every morning now I wake up afraid of dying alone and still in pain, still hating myself. Sometimes I'd rather die now, than feel like that another minute. But I know I must go on. I have children whom I love, who love me.

a big hug to all.

xxx

[Scout99]

Scout99-how do you do quote pieces of text multiple times?

There are two ways you can make quotes and both of them allows you to do it multiple times... .

The one above here is made using the quote link in the top of every post... . if you push that you'll get the whole text in your new post as a quote. But you can edit it! First take out all the text you don't want to quote so you are left with the pieces you want. Make sure you don't cut out the "code" at the top - that looks like this:

(quote author=musicfan42 link=topic=207450.msg12301460#msg12301460 date=1377045021) (but with ][ around it not parentheses... . )

You also don't want to remove the small code at the end of your original quote that looks like almost like this: [ /quote ] (but without spaces... . )

When you have arranged the different parts of the texts you want to quote the way you want them - then you can copy and paste the long code at the top and the small code at the bottom. Make sure you do it around each quote! When posting it will put the separate quotes in a purple box with designation at the top from which post and who wrote it.

Make sure though you only have codes around the actual quotes you want, so you don't leave extra codes anywhere since that will make the whole thing purple if you are unlucky... . It is easy to modify though!

This is really way easier than it sounds... . Just hard to explain for a computer analphabet like me... .

Scout99-how do you do quote pieces of text multiple times?

The other way to quote does not show who wrote what and when, but is perhaps even easier technically. Here you just take out the part of the text you want to quote and then use the little button in above the posting area where you write. (where you also find the buttons to make texts bold for example). There is a button that looks like a speaking bubble from a cartoon. Press that and you will get two codes beside each other and then you can just insert the text between them. It will result in a purple button containing the quote, but if you want to add who wrote the quote then you will have to add that yourself, either by spelling it out outside the quoted piece or together with the quote... .

To make multiple quotes like that, you either cut out a larger chunk of the text you want to copy from and then edit out the pieces you want in your own post and cut away the parts you don't. (Or you need to have two windows open with the post you want to quote from, since you cannot copy from the "topic summary" below the posting area... . A.k.a cut from the post in one window and then paste in your posting area in the other... . ).

There is no limit to how many times you can use the quote button in the posting area.

I am terrible at explaining these things!   So good luck!

I'll get back to you on some thoughts and reflexions later!

Best Wishes

Scout99

[musicfan42]

Scout99-thanks for the instructions... . much appreciated!

RoseTiger-yes, I totally agree with you there... that facing the fear is the answer

Delusionalxox-yep, I've veered from being passive into being aggressive in past relationships. I've realized that it's a sign of a dysfunctional/abusive relationship. I know when I get that angry, then there's something seriously wrong within the relationship. I think that anger is a sign of something seriously amiss... that my boundaries are being overrode-that I'm being taken for granted in the relationship. It's not that I'm against feelings of anger per se however I can only speak about my own experiences really and other peoples' experiences may be totally different.

[connect]

Hi MF - good post!

I read the book "Women who love too much" in my early twenties and it resonated with me. I knew already that I did more than the other person did in my r/s's. I was lucky though that I was involved with healthy men so the traits didnt come to the surface so much.

Still my friends would tell me I did too much for my then partner (like picking him up from nights out at 2.30am etc etc) . When I met my now BPD boyfriend the ___ really hit the fan... .

It all came out. I couldnt understand my own behaviours - I had always had them but they had not had such a wide avenue to roam unchecked before! I started accepting things that I had always said I would run a mile from. I started losing myself. Still have really. Still learning. I went to some co-dep meetings and need to restart them - Like Maybeso said - I missed lots because I was too stressed with my BPDbf's behaviors etc! Yep I definately NEEDED to go if I was missing them for THAT reason! So back on those again this week!

I think its interesting that the BPD's have often had similar childhoods to the co-dependants. It seems like the coping mechanisms are different. I wonder why some abusive childhoods end with a BPD child and some with a co-dep child? My b/f and I both had abusive childhoods and we are both sensitive people. It's not a competition or anything ( ) but my childhood was way more abusive than my b/fs was - I wonder why I ended up co-dep and him as borderline?

I have some serious work to do on myself. My r/s with my BPD bf has alerted me to this fact. I am trying to make little steps. I try to say no more to my friends and they find this a shock (like Scout I am quite assertive in some areas but not in relationships) i am trying to make plans regardless of my b/f but this is early days. Its wierd as in past r/s i always made my own plans with no problems AT ALL! I think the lack of security in this r/s is the thing that throws me off balance. Like I always have to be available or trtying so hard with him. In the healthier r/s's of my past the r/s would be a solid base from which I would work from with my own life. The lack of solid base has made me feel I have to get the base solid and THEN I can have my own life. Not a good thing at all - just saying how I see myself atm. My b/f said to me once "If you spent as much time thinking of yourself as you do about me you would be much happier". He is right. Yesterday I was a bit low. I tried an excercise and tried to gve myself the advice I would give to my b/f if he was a bit low ... . get nice clothes on, wash hair, eat well, rest, do something constructive with your day, call a friend etc etc... . it worked. Wierd That I have to pretend I am my bf to look after myself! At least I am becoming aware of these things. long process i suspect... .

[musicfan42]

Thanks Connect

Is the book "Women Who Love Too Much" good? What type of recommendations does it make?

How are you finding the Codependent meetings?

[musicfan42]

I've realized that I AM codependent. I was so disgusted by the idea that it was an addiction. I was determined to fix it myself through working on my assertiveness skills etc... just boost my confidence.

And sure, working on my assertiveness has helped improve my behavior however I'm still left with obsessive thinking and mindfulness isn't really cutting it. I can keep up mindfulness for about 5 minutes and that's it. I tried to practice self-compassion and it was a total flop for me. I like the idea in theory however it hasn't worked for me in practice. So I feel like the 12 steps gets rid of the obsessive thinking.

I also feel a bit of a "dry drunk" right now-that I'm not actively being codependent... that I've quit for the moment under my own steam but I'm still feeling very angry... restless, irritable and discontent. I notice that when I stop being codependent by myself, it feels like an uphill battle-like giving up cigarettes for example. It feels like I'll crack at any minute and just give in... . I've been experiencing a battle between my emotional mind (heart) and my reasonable mind (head) and I didn't have any wise mind. I don't like mindfulness so I actually need the 12 steps to access the "wise mind" part. If other people find mindfulness and self-compassion helpful, then good for them but it just hasn't worked for me personally!

I actually ended up googling the book "Codependent No More" online today. I literally hated that book before... I flicked through it in a library and thought "yeah, I know all of this" and never looked at it again. I felt so disappointed because I thought "why are people raving about this book-it's useless". Whereas now, I'm coming back to the book after doing DBT and CBT and it makes a lot more sense. I realize now that when I was reading it before, it triggered a lot of feelings of shame on my part. I could relate to all of it but I didn't want to. I didn't want to be associated with that kind of thing. I didn't want to call myself "codependent". It felt like I was calling myself a loser really... just a total sign of defeat.

I only fully realized just how codependent I am today. I was complaining about a situation to a friend and this friend ended up confronting me about my B.S. I felt incredibly angry with this friend but I reflected on it and realized that they had a point. I was going to say "they were right" but no-I still don't agree with them 100% however some of it definitely was common sense.

There was a part in the Codependent No More book that caught my idea today... that you could just feel compassion for someone and not act on it! I've learned that I can feel anger and not act on it so why not compassion? It sounds kind of messed up... not acting on compassion however the book pointed out that codependents typically overreact to situations.

There was a chapter on reacting as opposed to responding to situations. I'm fairly okay with that now however there was another chapter on detachment vs attachment. I don't think being attached to someone is a bad thing however with codependents, it seems to be a case of OVERattachment... again, overdoing it really. And overdoing anything isn't a good thing-there has to be some kind of a balance.

I'm realizing now too just how useless the CODA meeting I went to was. I went to it for ages yet I never learned any of this! My al-anon meeting was better however I didn't relate to any of the other people there so that was another barrier. I felt like the really mouthy outsider... which is weird because sometimes even here on this forum, I feel like the "outspoken one"... the one who just says how I feel and then is told that I wasn't diplomatic enough... that it's implied that I was rude or thoughtless or whatever. This is a trigger for me because growing up, I never felt entitled to my opinion. I'm really opinionated however any time I stated my opinion as a child, I got into trouble. It feels like a pattern that has followed me ever since. And that is hard.

I'm also dating a really self-contained man right now so that isn't helping me either. He is the type of person who is so self-possessed. He doesn't have my emotional outbursts... he never gets angry. Well, I think he has emotions but they're all repressed/bottled up. I know that he feels excited around me because I'm the total opposite but it's getting on my nerves. I feel like I have to "perform" for him in the relationship-that when I'm calm, he's not as attracted to me as when I'm being over dramatic about something.

I just wonder now whether a lot of men here are attracted to female borderlines because they're emotionally repressed and then here comes this female borderline that taps into all their emotions and makes them feel things they never felt before. I sense that I have this effect on this guy I'm dating. I'm not a borderline however I'm deeply emotional. I'm not even trying to offend men here by saying that... I'm genuinely wondering... although I'm sure that I'll get at least one person telling me how wrong I am for giving my opinion yet again!  

The Codependent No More book mentioned that codependents are really controlling. My friend told me how she heard me on the phone to someone, telling them what to do and that it sounded like I was enjoying it. And yeah, I was. I like being in charge. I can be a bit bossy at times. And I don't have much patience so in the past, if someone asked for advice, I just thought "oh they're useless" and gave them advice because I didn't have any respect for them. I still don't have any respect for them but then, I never did. That's why I gave people advice... that's why I was a rescuer... because deep down, underneath all my nice outward behavior, I didn't respect these needy people. My deeply buried feelings manifested themselves in rescuing behavior-I felt that they were a bit pathetic deep down. I'm only realizing that I felt a certain level of contempt towards these people now... back then, all I was aware of was this feeling that they were useless and that I'd have to do it... that I couldn't leave it up to them or else nothing would be done. But that is contempt/lack of respect. And I suppose it is controlling behavior. I remember always being astonished when the person I was rescuing was able to do anything by themselves... because I thought that I was the smarter one. I thought that I was the more capable one. And see, that's what I think my current boyfriend thinks! I feel that he sees himself as more capable than me... that he can keep his emotions in check but I can't. He listens to me etc however I have wondered whether he has some codependent tendencies. He's set some boundaries with me which has been helpful for both of us yet I tend to act up with him because I know that he will listen to me etc.

Is there anyone here that also has waif-tendencies? That can act up a bit to get attention/care? I feel that I'm mostly codependent however a little part of me is a waif too. The codependent side is the top layer and then underneath, the waif. No wonder why I could relate to my BPD ex!

I'm also wondering now too whether my opinionated nature is another way for me to be controlling? A way for me to say "I'm right and you're wrong". I certainly enjoy giving my opinion. I try not to a lot of the time in my actual life but there is a part of me that enjoys it. The book did mention how codependents can be controlling... .

I'm realizing that the whole "they're useless-I'll have to do it myself" feeling actually originated with my father. He was incredibly unstable so there were times when I gave him basic advice and I'd think "how does he not know this?" I didn't respect him at all... not one bit... never did... never will... There were times too when I didn't respect my mother's judgment-I'd think "how do I know better than her? how am I wiser than my own parents?"

I don't feel that anyone really understood my emotions as a child and that made me feel emotionally invalidated. It also contributed to that feeling of "they're useless-I'll have to do it myself". I felt so misunderstood. I felt like a freak. I'd talk about how I felt and I'd be misinterpreted so much. I don't remember any family member ever actually listening to me instead of jumping to conclusions, making assumptions and judging me... or else giving me advice!

Even when I went to therapy, I didn't feel like my therapist really understood me either so I quit therapy and thought "this is useless-I'll have to do it myself". Even with my al-anon meeting AND the CODA meeting... I went for an extended period of time and then thought "no this is not for me-this is useless, I'll have to do it myself". That feeling has followed me around my entire life! That feeling of never being able to trust anyone... never being able to rely on anyone... afraid of being let down. Plus not respecting anyone deep down... thinking that they were all hypocrites, saying one thing and doing another. I didn't realize the deep mistrust I had of people started so early on in my life but it must have started when I was about 4 years old... maybe even sooner.

I remember wondering why I wasn't getting on with my therapist-I never trusted her. I didn't want to work alongside her because I didn't feel like she cared. It was all transference... the feelings I had towards my father were projected onto her. I would get angry with her and just end up insulting her when I wasn't making any progress. Which obviously wasn't helpful. But then, I did the same thing towards my father. When my father wasn't giving me the love I wanted so badly, I'd insult him. Maybe he was mean to me first but either way, the claws came out and I was mean. I still feel that my father deserved it though. I still feel my therapist deserved it. I have no regrets on either score. I still feel justified yet I know that there's an indisputable link between the two events...

I remember not trusting the people in the CODA or Al-Anon meeting... wondering whether they were judging me... . hmm.

[Perfidy]

I sure don't feel like I deserve bad treatment. I feel like I deserve respect. I know for a fact that I am a respectable human being. I am respectful to others so I expect to have respect back. The problem is when I receive disrespect I accept it sometimes. But only from people that I'm having sex with. If I don't want anything from you i ain't going to put up with your crap. I have a low tolerance for bs normally. I know when I'm being disrespected and I won't allow it. Disrespect me physically you might get laid out. That happens sometimes. Anybody ever been in a fight? I know I'm not the only one but I know there are people that have never found it necessary to fight in their lives. When the T told me this I laughed. I thought it was normal to fight. It's not. Codependency has to be a feature of BPD as well. I cannot fathom it any other way. I perceived my ex to be extremely codependent. My codependency combined with hers was like the two likes repel effect. We totally clashed. That along with the lopsided love. It could be a question of who was the biggest codependent.

[slimmiller]

Wow folks. Thank You Thank You

When I grow up, I want to be where some of you are in your journey of leaving codepency... .


I have just recentlY come to that big question myself. Basically as I try and coparent with a waifish, impossible to deal with ex, I ask myself what in the HELL made me need to be on the road that Im on. More then how can I reason/deal with her. There is no reasoning and working with her so what can I do with ME.

Anyway, there is much here for me to digest and ponder.

And to answer the question about do we deserve bad treatment? Absolutley not! We are some of the most compassionate, empathetic folks on the face of the earth and we should be appreciated for that. As a matter of fact we should demand it. If we look at the good in us and what we aspire to be, people should take note and emulate us.  Okay that sounds a bit like the narsisistic personalities some of us have dealt with...   But in all seriousness, my conclusion is that we will only be treated as we wish to once we demand it.

How to do that however (at least for me) is the bigger question and the one I m most determined to make myself asnwer.

I am the oldest of a large family and have been helping with others for as long as I can remember and have never really took time out for me. Was never really a kid and was starkly reminded just last night. My s11 was complaining about his mother when I said Theres not much I can do about it when he said, 'yes you can'  I asked him what do you mean, he said, 'stand up for yourself'  (meaning I need to stand up to his mother, my ex BPD)


I have work to do with ME!

[musicfan42]

Thanks for your comments guys! 

perfidy-I really admire how candid and honest your post was! I also found that my BPD ex was codependent so that's an interesting point that you make. I think it's great that you're going to therapy-it's really a brave decision. I went to therapy and support groups. I've found the workshop section here great too


slimmiller- Please don't compare yourself to other people here! You are here, seeking support and you wrote a really expressive post-that demonstrates good communication skills I like the way you say "what can I do with ME"-that's exactly how I feel about it. I know that I can't change other people, only myself.

I don't think it's narcissistic to want to be respected by other people-everyone deserves respect. It would be a tad narcissistic to demand constant attention/admiration but respect is a basic human right. No one deserves to be mistreated or abused.

[Rose Tiger]

Musicfan, good post.  I can relate to a lot you are saying.  The I'll do it myself feeling of not being able to trust.  One of the hardest things I had to do was ask for help at the grocery store after surgery.  It about killed me to say yes when asked if I needed help out.

[musicfan42]

Thanks RoseTiger!

It's good that you did ask for help at the grocery store after surgery. 

I think there's an upside to that "I'll do it myself" feeling-resilience, self-sufficiency, independence etc. I think the "I'll do it myself" thing only becomes bad when it's taken to an extreme... when I never ask for help. It really is about trying to strike a balance as I mentioned before.