When to take death threats seriously

[singlemom]

Hi all, I'm new here and this is my first post other than the intro post.  I didn't know where to start with all the questions, and decided I might as well go with the doozy first.

My my BPD DD 18 started threatening to kill her father and I when she was 10 or 11.  Now, many years and a divorce later, she's estranged from him completely, has been in and out of therapy, group home, even juvie.  And for the first time in many years, she's started with the death threats again.  They are frankly scarier at 18 than they were at 11.  She's much more graphic and vivid and will stare at me with crazy eyes telling me how good it will feel to have my blood splashing over her body and my guts spilling all over the floor.

My therapist says that with her lack of violence in the past, she believes that DD is more likely being manipulative than actually posing a danger to me.  The worst she's ever done before is to throw things, hit with bare fists, or perhaps gouge with her fingernails.  Nonetheless, when she picked up a hammer yesterday and reared back as if to hit me, I really got scared.  I really don't trust myself to know if or when her threats become real.

Here is the kicker -- my ex and I did call the police on her at the advice of her psychiatrist who said that it would be the best or only way to get help and treatment for her.  However, the police just lectured us all (they considered it a family squabble) and left.  She did end up in the foster care system after my ex reported her for drug use, and this time, she ended up in the group home for a year, and juvie for a month, but other than normal outpatient therapy (with which she does not cooperate), they got no help for her at all.  It was all treated as a criminal problem.

So the dilemma is this:  If the threat is real, then I will need to report her for my own safety, and the safety of those I love.  However, if it *is* just drama and manipulation, then I do NOT want to get her back into a criminal justice system which incarcerates her but does nothing to help her.  The other option is to ban her from my home -- this is a reasonable option despite her young age because she's actually living in a mother-in-law apartment in the house and I can lock off the rest of the house without actually kicking her into the street.  The problems with that are 1) I'm afraid she will break down the door in one of her rages, and 2) I'm afraid that isolated down there by herself, she will end up killing herself.

So, where do I go from here?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Want2know]

So the dilemma is this:  If the threat is real, then I will need to report her for my own safety, and the safety of those I love.  However, if it *is* just drama and manipulation, then I do NOT want to get her back into a criminal justice system which incarcerates her but does nothing to help her.  The other option is to ban her from my home -- this is a reasonable option despite her young age because she's actually living in a mother-in-law apartment in the house and I can lock off the rest of the house without actually kicking her into the street.  The problems with that are 1) I'm afraid she will break down the door in one of her rages, and 2) I'm afraid that isolated down there by herself, she will end up killing herself.

So, where do I go from here?

I understand your dilemma, and really feel for your situation.  That is a tough one.

What is important, first off, is your safety.  Putting your question aside for a moment, please take a look at this, and seriously consider developing a safety plan:  Safety First

My overall thought is however hard it may be, knowing she is your daughter, is that she is 18, and an adult in the eyes of the law.  You cannot protect her, but only care about her.  She may need to learn some lessons the hard way if she's not willing to get help on her own.

Have you spoken to a domestic violence counselor who might be able to give you a bit more guidance, other than the police?  We can try and locate phone numbers for you to call if you don't already have one.

[Verbena]

singlemom,

I can see your dilemma but if your daughter is making death threats, I would take them seriously.  If she threatened to kill someone at school or at work, the police would be called.  She shouldn't be able to threaten to kill you without consequences. 

My DD28 has gotten violent with me a few times, so I can relate.  The first time it happened (when she was 18) we called the police and she was fined $350 which WE had to pay because she didn't have any money.  Last summer she nearly ran me over with her car while in a fit of rage.  I have made up my mind that if she ever does anything like that again, I will press charges.  I should have last summer, but since she didn't hit me (I jumped out of the way in the nic of time) and because she was about to get married in two weeks, I just let it go. 

Please take care of yourself and protect yourself. 

[qcarolr]

It is a hard choice as a parent to call the police on our child, and to press charges -- consistently, every time they break our safety boundaries. And so we have to figure out that safety plan first, then engage it EVERY TIME. For my family, with our BPDDD27, this has been a longer process than maybe needed because we often lacked the courage to be consistent in enforcing our safety plan.

When we finally got serious and stood up to her threats with police calls and leaving the area when she refused to go - even to the point she could not be at our house (she has been homeless off and on for several years) things have finally started to get better. She has been starting to get aware that some of the negative consequences ARE FROM HER CHOICES. And there are some serious legal consequences, luckily for us her loss of self-control is with friends and not family. We are not the 'bad guys'.

I would respond always to these threats as real. This is the only way she will get it that you cannot be manipulated by threats. Do not participate in the drama. Leave. Say I will not be bullied and threatened. Have plan of where you will go. Have car keys where you can get them. Have neighbors that are willing to take you in without notice to call the police. I have spent a whole afternoon at McDonald's with my kindle fire waiting for dh to get home from work (they have hot spot) -- I was on this site during that time and got lots of support. I have walked across the street with her screaming at me as she followed me - til she realized where we were.

My dh and I realize, and accept, that many of her worst raging episodes are driven by drug use, most likely meth or even a stimulant med prescribed by her pdoc through Dd's manipulation. I have let the mental health center know she sells this med and it has made her more aggressive. They are no longer giving it to her.

I hope you are able to make a plan for yourself as you learn other tools here to make things better for yourself. Keep coming back - we care.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

Hi singlemom   

and 

I am so sorry you are going through this... .

I would take your situation seriously. Often violence starts as vain threats and then escalates over time. It is hard to tell where the tipping point is, and then it may be too late.

I do understand your dilemma. You want to be there to help your dd. You do not want to cut her out of your life.

Ask yourself this: if you misjudge the situation and get hurt or killed - how is this going to help your dd?

So, I do agree with the others' suggestions. Please take care of your own safety first. It will keep you safe AND it will help your dd in the long run too.

We are here to support you. It would be a good idea to seek some professional help too (as we are not here to replace that).

Let us know how you are doing... .

[vivekananda]

Hi singlemom, I am so glad you have found us   

Yes, I agree, our first job is to take care of ourselves, always. If we can't look after ourselves, how can we help others?

Let us know how you have developed your safety plan, ok? Come back to us with all the 'what ifs' that come to mind, let us support you through this, ok?... . and do you have a therapist with whom you can find face to face support and guidance?

Have you explored 'values based boundaries' yet?

Cheers,

Vivek    

[singlemom]

Thanks to all who responded.  I'm a little disheartened to see from the ages of some of your kids that it doesn't seem to get better with age.

My therapist felt that her threats were manipulation and that she doesn't really pose any danger.  My response to that was that no one ever thinks their child will actually try to kill them, and I don't trust myself to be able to recognize if the threats have turned real.  I think that I am safe for now because she's actually very smart -- smart enough to realize how much she needs me, even if she won't admit it.  I think that I would be in much more danger if she got a steady boyfriend, because at that point she might well decide she would rather have my money than me.

The main step I've taken is to hide the sharp knives, since all of her threats have centered around stabbing.  Beyond that, I have left at times, but since her threats against me have not turned real and her destructive tendencies are very real, I hate to leave the house to her to destroy.  From breaking dishes, to writing on the carpet with mustard, to bashing the front door with a heavy metal box, her damages are real, and sometimes costly.

I did let her know that while I don't want to get her in trouble, I will do what I have to do to protect myself, my family, my pets and our belongings.

Thank you again for responding -- it's just such a relief to know there are people out there who know what I'm going through, and who *believe* me!

[pessim-optimist]

Hi again singlemom,

It is so good to hear that you are safe and that you are taking care of yourself. I think that your reasoning regarding not being able to tell when the threat becomes real is wise... .

We certainly believe you, you are in a good place to be able to share and feel the support of people that have gone through some of the same struggles you are going through.   

I'm a little disheartened to see from the ages of some of your kids that it doesn't seem to get better with age.

I hear you. Coping with the disorder is depressing at times, and that is why it is so immportant to have a support system in place and also to maintain activities outside the family and the problems... .

On the other hand, from what I understand, the severity of each case of BPD is unique and they do seem to mellow out a bit with age. As far as recovery/getting better, it really depends if the pwBPD (person w/BPD) recognizes they have a problem and if they are willing to work hard in therapy or not.

[qcarolr]

Another perspective to offer on our adult kids -- we did not have the knowledge or tools when our kids were children and teens for intervention. There were lots of dx's, but BPD was not on the radar for anyone under age 18-20. And the focus in most therapies did not provide a way for them to find self-soothing, regulating strategies. DBT becoming mainstream recently has been a great improvement. And now the wealth of publications on the neurobiological development is giving treatments that better address the issues around sense of self that underlies the behaviors we observe.

I cannot raise my DD27 over again. Yet, using this knowledge and the related tools is slowly shifting something in her. Her actions with her probation sitaution are screaming out - STOP ME, HELP ME. The hardest part is for me to offer her alternatives to choose from then stand out of her way as she works towards one. It may not be what I would choose. That doesn't matter (it used to matter a lot to me). It is her gradual, intermittent awareness that she is creating some of her problems. I do think my limited abilities to be validating with her, and to love her no matter what, has supported this shift in her.

There is always hope.  Gotta keep working the skills.  Taking care of myself; knowing and consistently using my values-based boudnareis; always keeping focus on validating communication. Practice, practice, practice with everyone r/s in my life. Then I can do this better with DD.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

... .   I'm a little disheartened to see from the ages of some of your kids that it doesn't seem to get better with age.

My dd is 32. Like qcr, if I had known earlier, then things would be very different. As I see it, life with your pbd kid is a real hell in those teen years. If you have survived that, then the early adult years are problematic with the increased freedoms that adulthood brings - self medication and self harm can be especially problematic here. Then by mid 20's - when 'normal' kids are settling down more easily, so to with our BPD children. What I am trying to say is that I think that once these particularly traumatic years are passed, our kids may become more settled - but they still have their BPD. Then it's the cumulative effect of the earlier years that builds up the pain. So, it does can better in some ways, and in other ways it can be more difficult again.

This is why it is so important to take care of ourselves and to work on our skills (as qcr says), to continue to learn about BPD and to begin to understand and practice mindfulness and compassion. We want to be strong and balanced for our children.

For all of us the story is different, where we share things the same, it is in the effect of having a child with BPD. The pain, grief and confusion is the same for all of us. At least that's how I see it.

so, stay with us - we do understand how it feels. Have you worked on your boundaries yet?

Vivek    

[singlemom]

Boundaries are definitely something I am working on now.  My ex was a harsh and emotional abusive man.  Or rather, he is an excellent father to our son, but his rigid black and white punitive-based parenting style was very harmful to my DD.  As a result, I have stood for much of the past 7 years trying to be a buffer between them, and to protect her from the harm he does.  Feeling like I was her only refuge made it difficult to take a firm line with her even as she would rage against me.

I am now in a much better place, and with her having reached legal adulthood and both my ex and DSS out of our lives, I'm able to let go of that protective role and start protecting myself instead.  For example, the thing that kicked off the latest rage was that I was about 20 minutes late picking her up from work.  I texted her to tell her I would be late.  She works in a coffee shop with wi-fi and has a smartphone, so she had a nice comfortable place to wait.  In addition, there are other shops around she could have explored.  Instead, she stood on the side of the road in 90 degree heat and obsessively called me, screaming into the phone about how I had AGREED to pick her up at 2:00, and there was NO EXCUSE for me to be late, and I'd better GET MY A** down there to get her RIGHT NOW!

I did pick her up and take her home since she didn't have her bus pass with her, but I told her, "I was giving you rides as a favor, and since you don't like the job I'm doing, I will stop."  And I did.  The next night she called demanding to know where I was when work got out, and I just said, "I told you that I'm not giving you rides anymore."  She'd taken the bus *to* work, so I knew she could get home. 

So, now she has a consequence.  A 10 minute car ride has turned into an hour and a half bus ride.  I kept that up for about two weeks, and I'm just starting to give her rides again since the raging has subsided.  But only if she's civil and non destructive or threatening.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

that sounds like good work to me. Ah it's hard isn't it? That sense of self entitlement is a killer isn't it. And then the self righteousness of how they see things.

Those in the know here recommend a book on boundaries: "Boundaries - when to say yes, how to say no to take control of your life" by H. Cloud and J. Townsend. If you felt it would be helpful for you to extend you concept of them, this might be a good read. Sadly for me, boundaries aren't an issue, my dd has basically no contact with me - a long story.

Ok, how about your validation skills? How is that progressing? Validation is the one thing I have learnt a lot about and it has been really helpful to me in so many ways. I discovered depths of meaning to the concept over a lot of reading, thinking and discussing here.

I'm glad you are able to return to the car lifts after a while. I hope your dd can learn from her mistakes... . but it's hard to break that cycle of behaviours. Afterall she is employing tactics which have got results in the past, isn't she?

Cheers,

Vivek    

[singlemom]

Well, the problem is that if I do nice things for her -- like give her rides to/from work, she begins to see them as her right.  So we will see how it goes. 

By validation, you mean validating her feelings?  I have been working hard on trying to talk to her and listen.  For so many years the only advice I got was to stay calm and not engage her when she was being insulting, etc.  I'm sure that worsened her feelings of not being heard or validated.  Sometimes it works and she calms down and I feel great.  Sometimes though... . I mean, when she's threatening to kill me, or when she's destroying my house, etc... .   I mean, I try, but I'm not a saint.

[vivekananda]

Validation is a great thing   it is a multi faceted and multi layered concept that can bare a lot of reading about, studying and putting into practice. It's not at all easy but it does become easier with practice.

Yes, at it's simplest it is about acknowledging the feelings of the other person. Rather than go into a rave about what it means, check this out and tell me what you think, ok?

Understanding Validation in Families - Alan E. Fruzzetti, PhD

Also, have you read Valerie Porr's book"Overcoming BPD"? I highly recommend it, and it has a chapter on validation too. Ahh while I think, there's another excellent book: "I don't have to make everything all better" by G & J Lundsberg. It's not about BPD, just about validation 

Vivek    

[singlemom]

Thank you for the recommendations.  I'm watching the video now.

[singlemom]

Ack!  Why did the video end right there?  If he'd have said, "Honey, I'm worried, are you ok?"  What if she'd said "My life is none of your business!"  Do you accept that and walk away?  Do you keep trying?  And do you ever clean up the plant?  Because if you don't, chances are she never will. 

[vivekananda]

We are not perfect (someone told me that  ) it takes some learning and some time to build a relationship. We have had years of doing things that didn't work, we can't expect it to change overnight.

So, the purpose behind the video was not to solve our problems, it was to teach us how to validate and what invalidation is all about, etc. It was to give us the skills to begin to change how we communicate.

The purpose in being validating is not to get others to do things we want them to do. It is about building our relationship with them. About recognising how they feel. It is one of the tools in our toolbox. The other is boundaries.

You are in the difficult stage of your dd being legally adult, but still so childish. You cannot force her to do anything, can you? So, you need to work on your relationship with her - accepting she is considered by the world as an adult. You and I and the others recognise the reality that BPD presents us with, but that doesn't matter to the world. Technically she is responsible for her actions.

So, was the video helpful at all? (did you take notes to keep track of what he was saying? That can help.) Should I send you someone else to listen to on UTube? My favourite doesn't talk about BPD at all... .

cheers,

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

By validation, you mean validating her feelings?  I have been working hard on trying to talk to her and listen.  For so many years the only advice I got was to stay calm and not engage her when she was being insulting, etc.  I'm sure that worsened her feelings of not being heard or validated.  Sometimes it works and she calms down and I feel great.

Sometimes though... . I mean, when she's threatening to kill me, or when she's destroying my house, etc... .   I mean, I try, but I'm not a saint.

During those occasions it's time to be calm, compassionate and firm while enforcing our boundaries. (Validation takes more of a back seat, and that's ok   )

[singlemom]

Oh, yes, I did find the video very interesting -- didn't mean to imply otherwise.  I sent a link to my boyfriend as well, and while he hasn't watched it yet, we did discuss what I remembered of it.  He's also up for getting and reading some of the books. 

And sure, if you have favorites, pass them along.  :-)

[pessim-optimist]

Ok, if I was to give my favorites, it would be:

'Loving someone with BPD' by Shari Manning

'Boundaries' by H.Cloud & J. Townsend (christian perspective, but excellent and sound information for everyone - the best I've seen on the topic)

'I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better' by G. Lundberg (a wonderful book on validation)

[vivekananda]

The best 'overall' BPD book is I think "Overcoming BPD" by Valerie Porr. She is the mother of a daughter with BPD, the person behind the Tara Centre in NY, I believe. She writes with compassion for us and for the people with BPD. The book has a chapter on Validation and Boundaries each as well as introducing the therapy of Mentalization to us. It's like a bible to me.

Pessio says those other books and they are on my list too... . well I haven't read Shari Manning but would like to. I have heard so much of the Boundaries book - so I need to read it! And the Lundsbergs' book is excellent. (the Boundaries book and the Lundbergs' book are BPD free they are general self help books)

singlemom, this concept of validation caused me enormous internal turmoil when I first faced it. But I had no real problems with boundaries. See my dd isn't living with me and we rarely see her, my circumstances meant that validation was my priority. Coming to grips with validation was for me the beginning of me changing the person I was - and that is/was a real challenge. I had to change the way I thought. But my situation is not necessarily the same as for you. It seem to me you have to juggle validation and boundary setting and everything all at once. You are living with an intense experience.   

I am so pleased for you that your bf is with you on this journey, I can see only a powerful good for you both in that. It will help you in your relationship with each other to learn this stuff too 

When I was learning all this stuff (not that I have stopped learning it) I was always back here asking my friends here about stuff. I felt like a puppy dog with big feet in those days. Stuff that people seemed to know and I didn't get... . I asked some questions I can tell you    and the good people here were so patient with me. You sound much smarter than me. In those days I was so angry and hurt and frustrated that I couldn't do anything... . you seem very sensible to me.


Vivek    

 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders