Do you really think they left out of fear of abandonment?

[duncanville1]

In my case, my diagnosed BPD gf shifts between her mother and myself. It was a constant battle. For the most part I took the high road and did my best not to play the game. It was always a us or them battle. In the end the mother always gets my ex to paint me black and I was out of the game. This current situation has been the worst yet, attempting to have my rights removed from our daughter. I guess this does point toward fear of abandonment. The fear of losing her mother/family vs myself. Also I feel the ex thinks I will always be around no matter what happens. If her family makes her mad, or she cannot find someone else to meet her needs, I am always accept her return.  

[tailspin]

Em,

I think many of our ex's had an uncanny ability to leave before they would be *abandoned*.  I also think this was an instinct they developed early in life, probably with their primary caregiver, so they could retreat before all hell broke loose.  My ex said he could tell just by the tone of my voice what I was feeling, which is absurd, but totally made sense to him.  He would react regardless and I was left to deal with his actions as a result of what he "thought" I was thinking.  It was totally mad and unresolveable.  He was hypersensitive to the point of paranoia.  My ex would also force arguments and blame me for his rages as an excuse to leave; it must have been easier for him that way.  It was horrible for me.

Regardless of the reason, motivation, or intent... . the outcome is always the same and we are left cleaning up the mess.  I hope you're able to resolve some of these issues Em, and regardless of why he left, I hope you understand his leaving had nothing to do with you.

tailspin

[goldylamont]

while i do agree that fear of abandonment may be at the root of many issues in the r/s, at some point i feel things shift more into them wanting control, punishment and revenge. in my case, i feel like when there was actually a real fear of abandonment with my exBPDgf, we were still in the r/s and both trying to continue being together exclusively. but at some point, this fear of abandonment simply turned into hate--i feel she no longer feared abandonment, but assumed it was already the case, that i was already a cheater, that it was time for her to start punishing me for it.

after our r/s ended i didn't feel she feared abandonment any more, rather that she just wanted whatever she wanted at the moment and lost all respect for me, our past r/s and herself. this played out with her flirting/baiting me to see if i would come back--but really it was a game for her. i don't buy into the fear of engulfment/intimacy at all--she was actively seeking this from multiple men at the time. once you are this person's ex, it's all about using you for their immediate needs, which means acting nice to you if they want emotional support, and punishing you the rest of the time when they are getting this support from someone else. if anything i noticed a pattern with my ex--that being that when i was being treated badly by her, it was probably because she didn't need me at the moment because she was actively seeking intimacy elsewhere... .

[danley]

.  He would react regardless and I was left to deal with his actions as a result of what he "thought" I was thinking.  It was totally mad and unresolveable.  He was hypersensitive to the point of paranoia.  

The paranoia is draining. After a while you yourself begin to wonderful if these thoughts and scenarios are real too. You question yourself after they believe with conviction that it's happening or will. What a tiring life to live being paranoid about everything and everyone around you. But that what they feel and they believe to be true.

[goldylamont]

The paranoia is draining. After a while you yourself begin to wonderful if these thoughts and scenarios are real too. You question yourself after they believe with conviction that it's happening or will. What a tiring life to live being paranoid about everything and everyone around you. But that what they feel and they believe to be true.

so true danley. my ex had so much paranoia and was traumatized by her own thoughts. i remember being woken up in the middle of the night by her crying in her sleep. she had a nightmare that she walked in on me having sex with another woman and said i immediately started insulting her and was cruel to her about being caught. i don't even want to imagine how it feels to think these things of the person you are with, and now that i'm able to take things less personal i have a lot of compassion for what she goes through. in the end i feel like half the time she would treat me like the caring person i am, the other half she treated me like the monster she saw me as in the dream. it's really sad.

[Relentless]

Ya. Mine asked constantly before she left if I would cheat on her ever... . Or if I already had. Never and no... . But she asked all the time. On top of if I was going to be with her forever... . She made me promise... . I kept it. She left.

[Scout99]

I think you make some very interesting points here! I do believe however that most of them don't stand in contrast of the motivating factor still being found in their disordered thought patterns that all derives from an underlying fear of abandonment and feeling of unworthiness and of genuinely feeling not worthy of being loved or being unlovable... . And that in turn causes many of the behaviors that you point out and that I think most of us can recognize from one time or another in our encounters with pwBPD... .

while i do agree that fear of abandonment may be at the root of many issues in the r/s, at some point i feel things shift more into them wanting control, punishment and revenge. in my case, i feel like when there was actually a real fear of abandonment with my exBPDgf, we were still in the r/s and both trying to continue being together exclusively. but at some point, this fear of abandonment simply turned into hate--i feel she no longer feared abandonment, but assumed it was already the case, that i was already a cheater, that it was time for her to start punishing me for it.

I fully understand that this is the way things played out for you. And in that regard it really doesn't matter what the causes or the motivations may be behind it. Once it hurts us it hurts bad! And it feels malicious... .

But I have at least come to the conclusion that the motivating factor behind even the things that feels malicious also is the abandoned child. The rage of a child left by it's care taker and the horror of that repeats itself like a mantra in their minds... .

I think it wasn't until I listened to one of Tami Greens speeches for clinicians about being a borderline that I fully saw the complexity behind the fear of abandonment and how that pretty much sets everything else off... .

(For those of you who don't already know about her, I think reading about her and listening to her talk is very enlightening... . or at least it was for me... . ).

To me the whole concept of relationships is for them a loong sitting in the waiting room at the dentist waiting for the doom of having to have all their teeth removed without any sedative... . That is they know they will at one point or another be abandoned and that it is going to hurt, and they are super sensitive to anything even remotely resembling anything like it... .

Once the relationships fail it become a release for them. A release of anxiety. Like when we finally get into the dentist chair and realize they are only going to drill just a little and there will be both a sedative and a bookmark for good behavior as a reward in the end... . In short they can exhale for a bit... . Then comes the pain of loss... . Of actually realizing they have again become abandoned... . (And in their mind they will feel abandoned even if they are the one doing the leaving. Even if they have instigated the leaving by cheating or acting hurtful or whatever the reason may be... . That is part of the disordered thinking and the selfish mindset).

So they react and feel hurt and unjustified and replay the feelings of loss and rage from whatever trauma caused their disorder to begin with from their past... . In essence, when we feel they punish us, they do. But it is not really us they punish. They are punishing the person who they feel made them unlovable, who abandoned them... . To us it feels personal, because we are human beings!

But to them it too is all about them, and partly self punishment for the guilt and shame of being a person who is unlovable. And from that comes the rage and wish to punish the one who did this to them, (primary care giver usually), and the person who made them feel this way again, (us). And so they project on us, who have been their partner. But we know we are not guilty of the crime. But we become the target since they don't know how to direct it to the right place... . It just has to come out of them and right then they feel we are the cause... . A disordered thought.

after our r/s ended i didn't feel she feared abandonment any more, rather that she just wanted whatever she wanted at the moment and lost all respect for me, our past r/s and herself. this played out with her flirting/baiting me to see if i would come back--but really it was a game for her.

The push and pull and baiting that very often seems to repeat itself in so many relationships here, I believe too stems from the fear of abandonment... . Sure they told us to eff off... . But then the guilt and shame and the feelings of loss come and they feel that we don't love them anymore, so they feel abandoned... . And hate feeling so, so they test it... . Like a child who have been punished by a parent... . They seek contact again, usually not wanting to apologize, but they can't bear the feeling of being an outcast... . So they try to sneak back a bit... . at least enough to know we don't hate them... .

And they too need constant validation... . My ex has a lot of old exes he still is "friends" with, and other people too... . They are in his world people he feels he can go to when he need some support or validation... . He never gives anything back. But he keeps them close for just in case reasons, selfish reasons... . The reason he doesn't give anything back, I believe is because he really doesn't trust that any one of them truly care for him for real, (since he sees himself as unlovable)... . Instead he feels used by them... . But in reality it is the other way around... . Again... there is a lot of self loathing behind his actions. Fear or in his mind knowledge that he is unworthy of being loved for who he is, and will always anyway be abandoned, so he is afraid to invest any feelings into it... . And might as well take what he can... . I believe that's how he justifies his actions a lot... .

I too have often felt it was like a game. Selfish deeds usually feel like that when one is on the receiving end of them. But I truly believe the motivation factor is not game playing... . It is disordered thoughts about their own worthlessness... . I mean, what is the point of being nice, if you cannot be loved or will in the end be abandoned anyway?

Could you see any of that in your ex? Or is it just me?

i don't buy into the fear of engulfment/intimacy at all--she was actively seeking this from multiple men at the time. once you are this person's ex, it's all about using you for their immediate needs, which means acting nice to you if they want emotional support, and punishing you the rest of the time when they are getting this support from someone else. if anything i noticed a pattern with my ex--that being that when i was being treated badly by her, it was probably because she didn't need me at the moment because she was actively seeking intimacy elsewhere... .

Here I wonder if perhaps we mean different things when we use the word intimacy. (English is not my native tongue so I feel always a bit insecure). When I use the word intimacy I don't mean sex. I mean the closest form of connection between two people, where our vulnerability gets exposed... .

If you mean sex, yes then I get you... . I think most pw BPD who have a pattern of using sex for validation will use it all they can post a break up from someone they have cared about, and feel abandoned by, (usually unjustifiably so, but still).

I also however believe that a pw BPD can just like everybody else have some relationships that mean more to them and others they just use for validation... .

Again the motivating factor when going in to a for them "real" relationship is in my opinion a childlike fairytale wish of finding that one person who will make everything ok for them and set all that has been wronged for them right again... . So then they go all in, and of course get disappointed when the idealization breaks... .

When in relationships that doesn't mean so much to them the motivating factor is seeking temporary validation. And they have learned from their childhood how to make people respond to them in a favorable way to avoid getting hurt... . Again it is repeating a behavior often learned from an abusive or dysfunctional parent or care giver... . The reason is selfish. But the motivating factor behind it is more like, I am unlovable anyway, so the other person is just using me too... .

And that too can be related to fear of abandonment... . Even if it feels to us as if they do it with a malicious intent... .

In my opinion they do it with a disordered intent... .

Fear of intimacy, (my definition), and or engulfment comes when the relationship to them begin to make them feel vulnerable. When they feel they are falling deeply in love or they feel the other person is being really serious about the relationship... . This since that puts them right into the dentist's waiting room... . They fear the pending doom, and feel this is gonna hurt big time, since they have begun to invest feelings too... . They have lost control... .

However, not all pwBPD are the same, not all fear relationships as badly as others... . I believe there are different levels of severity, different levels of core wounds that control that... .

I find this to be a very interesting discussion no matter how we all view these things! It has helped me realizing that most of the hurtful thing my ex BPD guy did to me, when push come to shove, wasn't so personal after all... . Selfish yes! For sure. But not with a malicious intent, but a disordered one... .

That sadly counts for some of the nice things he did too... . But still it has helped me realize I couldn't stay in it anyway... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

[rollercoaster24]

Hi all

Mine was putting ultimatums back on me again. Kick your son in law out, and let me move back in, (to prove to me that you are committed to me).

Or move into a place together, (but I would have to pay once again!), and leave your daughter and her partner to their own place.

For the first two years, he lived with me off and on, but refused to live in peace at the house, preferring and justifying his need to create permanent conflict with me, (that apparently I deserved).

I had already suffered all forms of abuse from him, (along with 4 attempted murders, 1 premeditated), plus constant verbal/physical abuse, financial, public humiliations, harrassment at work, stalking, sexual abuse, (body comments, comparisons, threats to find another woman etc), consistent sleep deprivation, damages to property, (at home and work), serious invasion of my privacy, threats to others, stalking others that I knew, likely he was cheating on me as well, and a high suspicion he may have been abusing substances, (meth in fact).

I did not always react well to his provocations, and occasionally, (being trapped in his car and not allowed to get out) or woken in the middle of the night, or my property stolen, smashed, etc, I would fight back to his war of words.

I am not proud, but also did not have any other options most of the time, as I could not escape his constant harrassment.

If I locked myself in a room, he would break the door down, (I lived in fear of being evicted from my rental and having nowhere else to go) or damage something else. If I tried to escape in my car, he would block me in his, or steal my keys... or phone, (I was in such constant trauma that I did not always have the ability to think ahead too much.

Between running a home, looking after my teenage children, working 3 shifts per day, (at 4 sites in a Supervisory role) and living with uBP, life was hell.

I actually got to recover a little when he disappeared for a few days each time... It usually took me a week to get my mojo back at home though, and was only just making it at work...

I never knew where he went most times, and it wasn't always to his free loading lifestyle at his elderly parents either...

He would just refuse to take time out for an hour or so to calm down, would prevent me leaving, and would not stop the provocation until he was told to leave...

Sometimes I had to resort to being almost as cruel as he was, since nothing else would work... this pleased him, because then he could cry 'abuse' and justify leaving, (which was what he always secretly wanted due to his screwed up thinking that I really wanted that!).

So for the past 15 months we have been LD, and he had returned to his elderly parents permanently... Initially this went OK, but every week he runs out of money, is miserable, and blames the world... (me his parents, and my family/friends/his family!) Never would he think about trying to find a job, to actually help himself out!

The statements for the first two years that he knew he 'needed help mentally' stopped altogether once he returned to his parents, and he would become violent/aggressive, if anybody reminded him that he was the one admitting it...

He has denigrated my family and friends the whole 3.5 years of involvement, and last Monday, (after only seeing him twice in two months anyway) he had assaulted me and verbally abused me on both those occasions.

Then he recycled me again, (after 2 long weeks of NC instigated by him, the first ever that long) but fobbed me off by phone, promising to spend nice times with me, but on the day would cancel the plans once again, and the next day or the same day, he would start painting us black once again.

Back pedalling through the same weary toxic denigrations of his parents and my family and his relationship with me, (the source of all his misery).

A week Monday past, he rang, and I heard that familiar snarling tone of voice. This came after I listened to him and validated him for 3 long hours on the Friday before. When I said that I had to go now, (wasn't feeling well and had things to do too) his tone became sulky, and to 'punish me' he did his usual weekly disappearing act overnight, (cannot be reached by mobile ever when he goes to this place, yet insists he is sleeping in his car with his mobile nearby incase I call.

I decided on the Friday night that this simply was no longer acceptable to me. I have stated countless times that I do not resent him going to this city, nor for the night, however it is important to me that he develop the same trust he has long expected from me. That is to answer his mobile at least at some point... He refuses to, and there has always been an eternal excuse.

So I sent too many messages, (I was really hurt and annoyed that he could do this again) and told him so... some of the texts were not pleasant.

The next morning, he rang, but was more toxic back, (and since he reverted to saying, months back, that we haven't been in a relationship now for the past 15 months since I 'kicked him out once again' this is too convenient)... I have always been the supportive partner, consistently, and throughout much abuse. Always been there, always answered the phone, and kept helping him, validating him, supporting him... His support to me? Well, you guessed it, but then we aren't supposed to expect it now are we?

I stopped asking him to do things for me, since it seemed such an effort to get the basics mostly, (even affection or good company). Occasionally I might ask for his help, but he would punish me for asking, then complain I didn't 'need him for anything' since I have it all and he has nothing, thanks to me of course.

Last Monday, as I said, his tone of voice was a snarl, he called his parents C**t's, (they are encouraging him to remove all the stuff he has hoarded at their house, and move on eventually) and then called my daughter and her partner the same horrible word, and I then stepped in, and said Stop, I don't want to hear you use that horrible word, and I don't like hearing you talk that way about people I love and care for... I do not agree with you that they are such a thing...

To this, he replied, 'WELL, F**K OFF THEN YOU F****N C**T... .

And that was the last I heard from him... He is ignoring me... Just like he did after he assaulted me... Although after the assault, he did try phoning, offering to buy me a new phone, (too late to wait for him to do something) I had to sort out a replacement through a technicality in the insurance clause...

When I told him I had another phone, he then launched into painting us black, and how I should move on, how the police said not to go there again etc, (after he assaulted me).

I copped so much toxicity and verbal abuse that I hung up, and pulled out my home phone... The next day he rang back, this time humble and apologetic... And wanted to stay in contact over the phone, each day encouraging me to come back... I never made plans to go back to his shed at his parents again, until I had a lot more than his pathetic apologies which have never meant anything anyway, since he reverts back to the bad stuff quickly...

I am slowly grieving, and beginning to get some motivation back for my home, but this toxicity has worn me down, and a lot of stuff has piled up on the backburner, due to low energy and motivation levels.

I dread him ringing back, (which is his pattern) as I am still so much in love with him, and it annoys me so, since he doesn't really give a damn about me.

I still think about him telling me, that he didn't want to be the 'monster in my life anymore'... . and it makes me cry...

What the hell is wrong with me...

I am also starting to find evidence of his unfaithfulness,  and the extent of his lies... So I intend to confirm as much truth as I can, and then I will be prepared for his last attempt at recycling...

[whatathing]

Scout99, that is all very interesting. Could you just please clarify a little, why does the idealization phase end? Why couldn´t we be really the ones who helped make everything right for them? I heard sometimes that a good r/s, love, could be a source of growth and correct bad experiences of the past. Why is it that it has to be a task that the person does for herself so that she can have a mature r/s? Why can´t a good r/s help her achieve the levels of security, trust, self discovery, etc., that leads into a mature person?

In my experience with my uBPDexgf, I believe that what happened is that we weren´t totally similar, as no one is, and I wasn´t perfect, as no one is, and she lacked the capacities for empathy, trust, and emotional investment in a different person, all things that are essencial for a r/s to be real. But still, I wonder: could the r/s have been more suitable for her to develop these kinds of capacities and serve as an emotional interpersonal context in which she could develop as a relating person?

[charred]

They also leave because of a fear of engulfment and intimacy.

Sounds dead on; They leave because they are afraid you will leave, or because you are clearly staying or because you are actually getting close to them... . kind of gives them something to be triggered by unless you are a lump... and they are expert at getting you to do something... so even being a lump is out. Not a lot of options for how to keep from triggering them.

[Blaise]

That's exactly the question I am asking myself.

I do not have the response but suspect that it means that love cannot heal a disease (although it may perhaps help them to be in a secure r/s.

The second element to this -- which would also be the most difficult to accept, because of the bad image it reflects on me -- is ... . is it/was it really love?

I was deeply attracted by the vulnerable side of my dBPDexGF, at the beginning of our relationship and each time she appeared to be such a vulnerable thing in the course of the r/s.

I must admit to myself, although I feel a lot of shame when I think about it, that she lost a lot of this attractiveness, if not all of it, when she was in "good" phases, believing that she was a great person and looking like she needed no one.

[sm15000]

I believe it was fear of intimacy and engulfment with my ex.

I was in a long distance r/s for 13 years so I think this aided him not to feel so much of the above.  We really did have a stable r/s, no raging, mood swings, sulking, silent treatment    Yes, in hindsight there were *strange* things I noticed about him but he was never disrespectful or hurtful to me.  His thing is other women which I have realised now but didn't know then. . .our beginning was a dodgy with that but for many years I had no suspicions he was cheating.

Towards the end they was most probably a mixture of things that set this off - in the later years I, light heartedly, used to make comments about what we would be like living together or would suggest plans for holidays in the future.  I also think he sensed a change in me from hitting that peri-menopausal age and misread those plus I went self-employed which can be stressful.

I also think there was part of him that was bored - not helped by his imminent 50th birthday - he needed the rush and thrill of the chase again.  He got quite jealous about my younger, good-looking neighbour and in so many words asked if I'd thought about coming on to him.  When I said I wasn't interested, I was in a r/s so why would I do that, he replied 'just to see if you could'. . .said it all and especially when I was suspicious things weren't right anyway 

At the end he also said about the responsibility you have in r/ships. . .I tried to say he wasn't responsible for me but you could tell he didn't want to have that.  Saying that, he didn't leave the r/s. . .I had to end it.  I think in a way he was trying to ride the wave (of dysregulation) hoping I would let it go about the other women and what I had now experienced with him.  He said something about me being his 'best bet' and that he thought we should go back to dating again   

Why can´t a good r/s help her achieve the levels of security, trust, self discovery, etc., that leads into a mature person?

My ex once told me he had a self-destruct button and that I had helped him with that.  The thing is they are so sensitive to any change, or stress that it's eventually going to blow.  My ex wasn't a regular dysregulator with me, I think with some of his ex's he was. . .it's just our dynamic aided this.  But he could not take being shamed or exposed. . .it was deeply hidden - and when stuff really triggered him, he just went. . .into a totally different man.  He wrote once 'I have turned into the man you wouldn't want me to be, and I don't want to be'. . .it's very sad really

[Scout99]

Scout99, that is all very interesting. Could you just please clarify a little, why does the idealization phase end? Why couldn´t we be really the ones who helped make everything right for them? I heard sometimes that a good r/s, love, could be a source of growth and correct bad experiences of the past. Why is it that it has to be a task that the person does for herself so that she can have a mature r/s? Why can´t a good r/s help her achieve the levels of security, trust, self discovery, etc., that leads into a mature person?

In my experience with my uBPDexgf, I believe that what happened is that we weren´t totally similar, as no one is, and I wasn´t perfect, as no one is, and she lacked the capacities for empathy, trust, and emotional investment in a different person, all things that are essencial for a r/s to be real. But still, I wonder: could the r/s have been more suitable for her to develop these kinds of capacities and serve as an emotional interpersonal context in which she could develop as a relating person?

Now I am no expert here. But from my two experiences in having relationships with both a pw NPD and pw BPD who in a lot of ways differ from one another in some aspects and are the same in others, this represents the conclusions I have been able to arrive at... .

First of all idealization doesn't equal love. That is a fact. However most of us idealize a new partner due to the fact that we mirror each other and we share feelings of infatuation and often also passion, and sexual desire for one another in the beginning of a relationship. That is all chemical really and part of the reason people get attracted to one another and seek out partners in the first place. That is it is normal!

The mirroring effect is stronger from a pw BPD due to the fact that they have an unstable sense of self, that means they don't have a clear or stable personality so they imitate and mimic things they initially get attracted to in us, and reflects that back to us, creating a somewhat false ideal image of them that we in return believe to be true about them. In essence we all appear more perfect than we are to one another during the idealization phase and that can't be sustained neither by us nor by them.

In a normal relationship the idealization fades when we start to learn more about each other and discover the natural truth that we all have some flaws. And then it is compensated by the fact that we start to grow more mature and intimate feelings for each other. And if all goes well the love deepens. We learn to love each other warts and all so to speak... .

In a relationship with a person with BPD this happens to some degree for the non, but for the BPD party the scenario is not the same. First of all they fear any real intimacy (and by intimacy I don't mean sex, but the deepening bond that comes from exposing our vulnerability to each other) and they fear engulfment, since that to them translates eventually to both chaos in their emotions and ultimately triggers their fear of abandonment.

That is what they have learned in their past and is the very reason they have developed their disorder.

Idealization to them also often equals the only love, together with sex that they are capable of feeling, and since they have a hard time sustaining any emotions but suffers from fluctuating feelings due to the unstable sense of self - developing any deeper set lasting loving emotions is very difficult for them. And to most of them the price tag on that is simply too high... .

Deep down they believe of themselves to be unlovable. So our move towards more intimacy rings in them a bit false. They simply don't believe in it, since their primary care giver or the person they have modeled their ideas of love and relationships from, for whatever reason were not capable of creating in them any faith in unconditional love or even sustained love. It unfortunately doesn't take much to create that kind of wound or trauma in a child. Especially not a child who is genetically born with a greater vulnerability to begin with. And when it develops into a disorder it becomes a very definitive mindset in them.

They often harbor hope of finding that one person who will set all the things right in them, love them unconditionally and heal them if you will. But when that doesn't happen, since it cannot happen... . (Once we are adults the only person who can change anything in anybody's life is ourselves). So that hope is bound too for disappointment in them... . And when they discover we cannot heal them, they either move on to search for a new person or they begin to dysregulate, cheat or do whatever to help them temporarily ease their pain and suppress the fear of abandonment... .

At the same time seen from their perspective, they know from the start that the person they present themselves as to us in the beginning is not their true self. So they too on some level believe we fall in love in a figment of our imagination... . They may not know really who they are, but they know they are not that person... . Therefore they never fully believe we love them for who they are... . And in a way they are right... .

If the non involved in the relationship for any reason also has issues in the relationship department, and also seeks passion and idealization first hand and not the perhaps calmer but more sustainable kind of intimate love, then you have a combination that will complicate things further... . Since then both party's have unrealistic expectations for the relationship. The non will be disappointed when the pw BPD begin to dysregulate and the BPD person gets disappointed when the request for more intimacy begins to emerge.

Idealization can not be sustained in any relationship since it does not reflect the true presentations of ourselves. It is our best feet forward so to speak... . But it can definitely not be realistically expected that a severely disordered person that suffers from an unstable sense of self can be able to sustain such an ideal image of themselves towards anybody. That I believe goes without saying.

In a normal relationship the deepening of feelings and the acceptance of each others flaws and/or more realistic images of each other can provide a ground for mutual growth and even healing to some extent. But we cannot heal a mental disorder by ourselves in another person with our love. It simply doesn't happen... . No matter how hard we try or how much we want to.

What needs to be healed in a pw BPD is their deepest set life rules and most primary beliefs of life, themselves and ideas of relationships and the traumas or wounds that they probably are not even aware of completely themselves... .

It takes extreme forms of therapy like schema therapy and DBT to even begin to heal those wounds. And mostly even very skilled therapists don't get all the way. Most pw BPD undergoing therapy learn at best better coping skills to lessen the conflicts with people around them. But the core wounds and the unstable self remains. If you add the genetic or hereditary aspect to it, that is a genetically induced vulnerability that is abnormal, then it becomes even harder.

BPD is a severe mental disorder. We who have a loved one suffer from it doesn't want it of be, but it still is.

To make a relationship work with a person with BPD it will first of all take them choosing to be in it. And for their partner to accept them radically for who they are with their disorder. That is asking a lot from a partner. In many cases it means having to put up with multiple break up attempts, perhaps multiple cheating, put up with mood swings and fluctuating emotions, rage, unwillingness to accept treatment, inability and/or unwillingness to create any deeper forms of intimacy, and all the other symptoms that comes with this disorder. And not take it personally!

Add to that also committing to working hard at upholding our own boundaries, learning communication skills to prevent too much conflict and all the other things that you can read about going on in the relationships that have stood the test of time on the staying board here.

What we can not expect if we want to try and build a lasting relationship with a pw BPD is that they magically will heal themselves and become the person we first saw in them through our love. Because that person is not real. That person is largely a figment of our imagination and a result of idealization and mirroring on both parts. In essence that person is partly their best image of themselves coupled with our best features reflected back to us from them... . Asking them to be able to pull that off for any length of time is not very realistic in my opinion.

Again, this is my take on this. Others may have a different view. I believe it is quite possible to create a lasting relationship with a pw BPD but only if the other party is very balanced and stable and is willing to radically accept them for who they really are, and by that not trying to hold on to the initial idealized version of them that we helped create... . And not without a lot of sacrifices made on the non's part.

Best Wishes

Scout99

[Learning_curve74]

They also leave because of a fear of engulfment and intimacy.

Sounds dead on; They leave because they are afraid you will leave, or because you are clearly staying or because you are actually getting close to them... . kind of gives them something to be triggered by unless you are a lump... and they are expert at getting you to do something... so even being a lump is out. Not a lot of options for how to keep from triggering them.

The truth is we become the trigger, so that is why it turns into a no win situation. When you are the trigger, it is impossible not to trigger your partner.

[charred]

They also leave because of a fear of engulfment and intimacy.

Sounds dead on; They leave because they are afraid you will leave, or because you are clearly staying or because you are actually getting close to them... . kind of gives them something to be triggered by unless you are a lump... and they are expert at getting you to do something... so even being a lump is out. Not a lot of options for how to keep from triggering them.

The truth is we become the trigger, so that is why it turns into a no win situation. When you are the trigger, it is impossible not to trigger your partner.

I had to be the trigger, as she went off so often.

If BPD goes back to early attachment issues with fear of abandonment... . which I think it does... and attachment theory is on the money, and it seems to be ... . then things are just getting worse and worse. For years women have been encouraged to join the workplace, use daycare, and told the kids are fine. That doesn't seem to match the facts. The push has been to have kids as independent as possible as fast as possible... don't coddle them... don't give in to their unreasonable demands... . etc. When it sure seems like the first 5 yrs are pretty critical, first 2 yrs really critical.

Suspect we are mass producing people with PD's. How much worse now that a lot of young people (think young mothers) are nearly inseparable from their smart phones... how many kids will give up getting attention and decide something is wrong with them/their needs.

[Ironmanrises]

 Fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment. That is why they leave. The closer I got to my exUBPDgf, the more it triggered her. Both times I was in a relationship with her, the outcome was exactly the same. She left.

I still tumble from space to Earth.  :'(

[seaside4x4]

My exBPD of one week went after me!  I wasn't interested, but he pushed.  We were engaged 3 months later and married 2 months after that.  Now he left after 2 and a half weeks of marriage.  I am still in shock!  He won't speak to me and texts that it is over, move on, he doesn't love me anymore.  We were writing our wedding thank yous the night before he left together and had a wonderful evening.  He took care of my daughter all day for the first time as I had a teacher workshop to attend.  My first day back to work and he left the next day.  I don't think he could handle me back at work.  I am so angry at myself for allowing him to make me believe he was the one.  The day before he left I told a colleague that this was the man that would never leave me.  Crazy!

[Blaise]

My ex left when I told her that I was not ready to commit more because I was not happy the way our r/s was developing.

That to me is fear of abandonment.

The irony is that I was not prepared to commit more because I felt it impossible to developp intimacy with her. She acted as a partner was supposed to act but I could feel that there was always a fear of letting go, a fear of getting closer.

I believe this is fear of engulfment/intimacy, although I felt it more like fear of being dependent.

I guess that the fear of being dependent is also linked to the basic fear of abandonment: when you are not dependent, abandonment is less an issue.

[whatathing]

But we cannot heal a mental disorder by ourselves in another person with our love. It simply doesn't happen... . No matter how hard we try or how much we want to.

What needs to be healed in a pw BPD is their deepest set life rules and most primary beliefs of life, themselves and ideas of relationships and the traumas or wounds that they probably are not even aware of completely themselves... .

It takes extreme forms of therapy like schema therapy and DBT to even begin to heal those wounds. And mostly even very skilled therapists don't get all the way. Most pw BPD undergoing therapy learn at best better coping skills to lessen the conflicts with people around them. But the core wounds and the unstable self remains. If you add the genetic or hereditary aspect to it, that is a genetically induced vulnerability that is abnormal, then it becomes even harder.

Scout99, wow. Thanks, you´re insights are really useful. It´s not that I don´t have already understood it, but somehow it is hard to get into it, to really learn the lesson. It´s strange, although I´m already informed about how everything about this was disordered and it needs a different set of criteria to analyze than a normal r/s, I keep analyzing it through the lens of a normal r/s, of a normal breakup, of a simple rejection, but it wasn´t like that. I need to keep remembering that this "game" was a lot more complex, and that the answers aren´t simply "she didn´t love me" or "I wasn´t good enough for her".

Blaise, I also was really troubled by the same in my r/s, and in the end she said something like "I think there´s something lacking". I believe that what she sensed was lacking, came, among other things, from the fact that I wasn´t trusting her love, and so I was a bit less involved because of that.

[goldylamont]

Even if it feels to us as if they do it with a malicious intent... .

In my opinion they do it with a disordered intent... .

In my opinion, their intent often is malicious, and they are aware of this and purposefully do so. And the fact that they do this is because they are disordered. To me, it's not malicious vs. disordered. It's malicious because they're disordered.

I find this to be a very interesting discussion no matter how we all view these things! It has helped me realizing that most of the hurtful thing my ex BPD guy did to me, when push come to shove, wasn't so personal after all... . Selfish yes! For sure. But not with a malicious intent, but a disordered one... .

That sadly counts for some of the nice things he did too... . But still it has helped me realize I couldn't stay in it anyway... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

I've learned a lot from this discussion also and thanks Scout99 for taking the time to respond to me and everyone else. I do totally agree with you that what our ex?BPDSO's did to us wasn't personal, it was going to happen with anyone, most likely happened to many before us and most likely will happen with many after us. And in a way, as sad as that is, it is comforting after I'm able to process things to know that it wasn't really me, it was nothing personal, anyone could get a fee taste of the toxicity .

And yes I think we can respectfully have different opinions on their intentions. It doesn't sound like you've identified any malicious intent in your r/s and that's great. At the same time, I have seen it directed toward me, and I've also seen her purposefully do it to others. Of course this is all b/c she is disordered, but that doesn't mean she doesn't know what she's doing it just explains why. The way I see it is that if someone is lying and manipulating situations then they must be aware to some degree that what they are doing is hurting others, or they wouldn't have to lie all the time to get what they wanted. But, ya know at the end of the day I guess it's valid to feel also that people can do bold face lying and manipulating all the time and not have a clue that they are doing this... . just wasn't really my experience.

[Emelie Emelie]

To make a relationship work with a person with BPD it will first of all take them choosing to be in it. And for their partner to accept them radically for who they are with their disorder. That is asking a lot from a partner. In many cases it means having to put up with multiple break up attempts, perhaps multiple cheating, put up with mood swings and fluctuating emotions, rage, unwillingness to accept treatment, inability and/or unwillingness to create any deeper forms of intimacy, and all the other symptoms that comes with this disorder. And not take it personally!

Add to that also committing to working hard at upholding our own boundaries, learning communication skills to prevent too much conflict and all the other things that you can read about going on in the relationships that have stood the test of time on the staying board here.

When my BPD boyfriend was "choosing to be in it" I did accept him for who he was with his disorder.  I would always tell him, this is part of you, but it doesn't define you.  And I meant it.  There was a lot of good in the rs and I was willing to put up with the symptoms.  There was no cheating or physical abuse.  He had a great deal of awareness about his behaviors which was key.  I did work hard at establishing boundaries and learning communication skills.  This has a lot to do with why I felt so betrayed.  I worked so hard to understand and do the right things.  I read somewhere that when they were raging or criticizing it's because they're scared.  So I would just try to love him through it.  And eventually he'd come back to me.  That's a big part of why I felt so betrayed.  He was so afraid no one (and especially me) would stay with him because of his disorder.  But there I was.  Willing to stay and love him and accept him for who he was.  Because for a long time the good far out weighed the bad.  And he left me anyway.  Of course he would say it was because I left him one night.  Didn't contact him all night.  Preyed on his worst fears and insecurities.  But I was like hey... . I've certainly dealt with a lot of your less than pleasant behaviors... . aren't I entitled to a mistake here?  And that's still where I'm very confused.  Did he really "quit" because I left him one night or because he on some level wanted to and my leaving gave him a reason? 

[goldylamont]

When my BPD boyfriend was "choosing to be in it" I did accept him for who he was with his disorder.  I would always tell him, this is part of you, but it doesn't define you.  And I meant it.  There was a lot of good in the rs and I was willing to put up with the symptoms.  There was no cheating or physical abuse.  He had a great deal of awareness about his behaviors which was key.  I did work hard at establishing boundaries and learning communication skills.  This has a lot to do with why I felt so betrayed.  I worked so hard to understand and do the right things.  I read somewhere that when they were raging or criticizing it's because they're scared.  So I would just try to love him through it.  And eventually he'd come back to me.  That's a big part of why I felt so betrayed.  He was so afraid no one (and especially me) would stay with him because of his disorder.  But there I was.  Willing to stay and love him and accept him for who he was.  Because for a long time the good far out weighed the bad.  And he left me anyway.  Of course he would say it was because I left him one night.  Didn't contact him all night.  Preyed on his worst fears and insecurities.  But I was like hey... . I've certainly dealt with a lot of your less than pleasant behaviors... . aren't I entitled to a mistake here?  And that's still where I'm very confused.  Did he really "quit" because I left him one night or because he on some level wanted to and my leaving gave him a reason? 

Emelie Emelie please don't blame yourself at all for your ex leaving. I don't believe for a second that you leaving for one night is the reason why he left. he left because he wanted to, whether his reasoning was disordered or not. to me this is the narcissism that comes out during the breakup--they will always find something to blame you for so that they are justified in behaving badly.

in a way i feel that my ex needs her partner to give themselves completely to her, so that she then feels in control and can throw them away. in some cases it's because she's scared they will abandon her, in other cases it's just because she's grown tired of them, they've served their purpose, it's time for a shinier toy. this is just my theory, but i feel like some pwBPD seek to break through all your boundaries and get total commitment from their partners, and once they have this they are done and off to the next. if you comply and give everything if yourself in a few weeks, the r/s will be short, if you are stronger and hold your own, then they might not be used to this, can actually chase after you (instead of you after them) and the r/s could be longer. i feel like this need to take take take then dump is the root of the term "emotional vampires". do others feel this way?

[whatathing]

I´d never heard the term "emotional vampires", but it makes sense to me... . I always felt that she was absorbing, draining me out, and leaving me in a fragile position where it was difficult to me to simply be in a good mood, and have the strength to deal with the constant surprises she came up with... .

[dangoldfool]

seaside4x4, I feel your pain. I thought also I could trust my ex GF of 3 years. We weren't married, but I had her in my will to care for my kids if I were to die.

A fairly sizable chunk of money in life insurance to care for my kids.I thought she was honest and trustworthy. Wow was I wrong.


Scout99

Thanks for your post as a reminder, how difficult if not impossible it would be to make these relationships work. And to remind ourselves. It's really not if we did anything wrong in the relationship, other than getting into the relationship to start with. I always go back to maybe if I did this or that she would still care. Forget about it. Heal myself and move on. Life lesson I hope not to repeat. EVER again.

[Hazelrah]

i feel like this need to take take take then dump is the root of the term "emotional vampires". do others feel this way?[/quote]
Yes!  "Emotional Vampire"... . I used this exact term to describe my BPDw to myself at many points during our marriage.  I allowed her to drain my emotions, my energy, my sense of well-being, all too frequently.  If there hadn't been those fleeting, wonderful times where she was able to give these things back to me, I would be dealing with the end of the relationship much easier.  But yes, I felt as if I was giving and acting as a caretaker to the point where I was emotionally exhausted.  And yet the irony of the whole story is that the main reason she gave for wanting to end the marriage is that I was 'emotionally unavailable'.  I can't make her see the irony in that, however.     

[mitchell16]

the fear of abandoment never set well with me cause it didnt make sense to me. Of course now I relize that Im looking at from how my brain sees it. Logical. To me it would make sense that if you didnt want to alone then dont push away someone who loves you. But as I think about our patterns, it make sense a little. The break ups always came after a vaction, a family event, holidays and after she brought up getting married and I started following through at that plan. But thinking back to very ealier in the relationship probabley around 2 month mark maybe, we had a big argument which she was accusing me of an emotinal affair becuase a lady I work with who is married, mother and devoted christian was talking about how much house she had to get done and she was trying to figure out how to get her husband to help. I explained to the lady who has been soemone I have known for over 10 years, what worked for me. I told her men dont take hints very well that we need to be told directley alot of times. Later that night my exBPDgf asked me about two of my coworkers that she knows. she asked how they had the been. I told her one was doing well and the other one was good but was stressed out from work, housework, rasing children etc (this was the lady) she exploded in a rage I never saw in anyone before, she went on a tirade how I was shouldnt be having that type of conversation with a female, a married female at that, How I was having an emotinal affair. I was shocked and tried to explain that wasnt the case that this lady is very good friend and just seeking a mans opiinon on how to handle that sitituion. My ex kept rating and raving I finally said I cant take this anymore tonight That I was leaving. She got quite and calm and asked me not to, then she exploded and told me just go ahead and leave. Anyway I didnt leave and stayed the night. The next morning we talked and she said you should never threaten to leave someone with abandoment issues. I told her I didnt know she had those issues and I was trying to defuse the sitution because she was getting out of control. So I beleive she knows she has BPD (therapist) and she knew it all along. that was the first of many clues that she had BPD, but I had never heard of it and had never heard of anyone having abndoment issues. Of course as the relationship progressed, she told me she suffred from adhd, ocd, sexual addiction, in the past has had anorexia/bullimia, adult child of alcoholic parents, she had tried to commit suicide once about 20 years earlier, she liked to drive reckless and she didnt know why. she had 4 affairs on her first husband, she had relationship issues, commitment issues. I wished I had known about BPD at the first couple of months I might have not stayed as long. I dont know.

[cylec]

What gets me through the day is the realization that what I fell in love with was a lie, not a real person.   It was a made up personna by my ex to just hook her next mark (me). 

[Clearmind]

Its interesting how we didn't see the taking as a red flag!

I cannot blame my ex for the relationship demise because I didn't recognise the relationship as unhealthy to begin with. I need to be accountable for my own choices and not a victim of circumstance because I chose to stay rather than leave.

[Scout99]

When my BPD boyfriend was "choosing to be in it" I did accept him for who he was with his disorder.  I would always tell him, this is part of you, but it doesn't define you.  And I meant it.  There was a lot of good in the rs and I was willing to put up with the symptoms.  There was no cheating or physical abuse.  He had a great deal of awareness about his behaviors which was key.  I did work hard at establishing boundaries and learning communication skills.  This has a lot to do with why I felt so betrayed.  I worked so hard to understand and do the right things.  I read somewhere that when they were raging or criticizing it's because they're scared.  So I would just try to love him through it.  And eventually he'd come back to me.  That's a big part of why I felt so betrayed.  He was so afraid no one (and especially me) would stay with him because of his disorder.  But there I was.  Willing to stay and love him and accept him for who he was.  Because for a long time the good far out weighed the bad.  And he left me anyway.  Of course he would say it was because I left him one night.  Didn't contact him all night.  Preyed on his worst fears and insecurities.  But I was like hey... . I've certainly dealt with a lot of your less than pleasant behaviors... . aren't I entitled to a mistake here?  And that's still where I'm very confused.  Did he really "quit" because I left him one night or because he on some level wanted to and my leaving gave him a reason? 

No, he did not leave because of you going away for one night... . In all likelihood he left because all the conflicting emotions the relationship created in him, because he always does and always will be struggling with abandonment fear and the conflicting fear of intimacy and the again conflicting fear of engulfment that due to the disorder actually does define who he is... . That conflicting and frustrating torture is part of who he is, the defining part of his personality. And it is caused by a severe mental disorder. One that you cannot love him out of, no matter how much he wants you to, and you want to... .

When the pain and frustration is beginning to get the better of a pwBPD, the narcissism often reveals itself and they become focused on one thing, and that is to flea from or get rid of the pain and the frustrations from conflicting emotions, and their usual (disordered) way to solve such problems is to blame it on the circumstances, the other party and move to change them... . All in order to find (temporary) relief... . This is usually the time when we as partners become painted a bit black... . And the relationship gets deemed... . Then either a recycling pattern begins or they just simply move on to another partner trying to make things work there... .

There is really not anything you can do as a partner to prevent these things from happening... . We can not intervene their disordered thinking... . Yes, there are ways to change disordered thinking patterns, but loving someone out of them, is not one of them... . They have to do the work themselves, and they need to want to work hard for change... . Not because we love them, but because they want to create change for themselves... .

In the moments when the thoughts calm down, the pw BPD usually regrets what has happened, but knows at the same time they have a hard time sustaining feelings... . Even feelings they want to sustain... . This is the hardest thing to understand... . How they can seem so in love at one time and like they have completely lost it at another... . But that impart of who they are... . That is how the disorder defines them through their personality... .

However, pw BPD are individuals! So how much of their personality will be defined by their disorder, depends on the severity of the disorder... . And so it is with their relationships. Depending on the severity of the disorder and the ability to sustain emotions and keep fear of abandonment at bay... . The harder a person has to handle all of those things, the harder they will have to keep stable relationships... . It is not about us, and not about you... . But all about them... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

[Relentless]

Scout... . You're so insightful. I hate that I've been painted black and made to be something I'm not. For me idk what will happen with mine... . She was gonna be gone for 4 months... . In the weeks leading up to our fallout (her self created fallout that didn't need to happen)... . She asked constantly if I was going to cheat while she was gone or leave her. I've been cut out of her life 5 weeks now. We were friends 13.5 years before dating. I'm at a loss for words, but to contribute to this thread, yes I definitely believe that is sometimes the underlying cause, however, my ex left because she thought I took pics of her and sent them to someone... . Then that I was cheating... . But those irrational fears which became real stemmed from her believing I would abandon her in some way.