Q: about what's appropriate?

[eeyore]

Scenario:  I have been with my BF for about 6 years in a committed relationship.  For the first years (2 or 3) our relationship was challenged by his enabling of the ex of 20 years.  In the last years they both moved on and our relationship was moving forward with boundaries in place concerning the ex. 

In the last 3 weeks his ex was hospitalized.  At first her condition was undetermined and appeared to be dire. As it ends  up the prognosis is better than initially feared.  However, in that first 2 weeks absolute chaos ensued in our home.  As soon as she went into the hospital we visited her out of concern.  Then my BF began becoming a caregiver and emotional support for his ex. He tells her call day or night for any reason.  He has gone over to the hospital and nursed her while her family went to sleep staying with her for more than 18 hours. She has a BF she lives with, a sister, and both of her parents.  She has been released from the hospital and he is now attending doctor appointments with her because she asked him to.

I can understand she does need emotional help as I have witnessed her pain both physical and emotional.  I can not imagine the despair she must feel.  I have also reached out to her on occasion by visiting with him and sending flowers.  I do not wish to be uncaring but at the same time I do not feel responsible for care giving. 

As you can imagine, he's been an angel to her with the most positive attitude to help her get through this tough spot.  As for when he's home he only talks about her, has constant phone calls to friends asking them to support her, and doesn't appear to be in our relationship.  His emotions have been all over the place and I struggle with what's appropriate now with how he is behaving. 

He says thank you when I visit with her or have done something kind but then the rest of the time he badgers me for more. 

At first he asked if she needed hospice could she and her family come and stay in our home.  That didn't happen so when she was released he asked if she and her family could come stay in our home because our home is bigger and can accommodate her family better than her place.  He is now disappointed in me because I am not as good a person as he thought I was.  How could I be so selfish?  This has made me very upset.  However,  I've tempered my discussions/disagreements with him due to the circumstances.   Now that things have calmed down she still has a tough road ahead I think it's time to discuss what is appropriate or not for care giving of her and by whom care giving should be provided by.

Please let me know what you think? 

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[clairejen]

That is a real crisis. Hospice usually means the person is dying. Although they are not together anymore, she was once with him and he is feeling the upcoming loss.  BPs rarely do things "halfway", so he is really focused on the loss. It sounds like she and he appreciate your support.

Claire

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi Eeyore

Sounds like you're going through a tough time. It seems like your BF is going above and beyond in caring for his ex and I can understand how that would make you feel second best.

How about you talk to your bf about this using SET with heavy emphasis on the E-part (validation)?

How would you phrase that?

[eeyore]

That is a real crisis. Hospice usually means the person is dying. Although they are not together anymore, she was once with him and he is feeling the upcoming loss.  BPs rarely do things "halfway", so he is really focused on the loss. It sounds like she and he appreciate your support.

Claire

I don't feel appreciated.  She never needed hospice and hospice is a LONG way off.  That is the BP way of thinking which is why I told him we should wait to cross that bridge.  I agree the loss feels real to him in the mean time. I feel like his first priority is to spend time with her which is at the cost of our relationship. 

[eeyore]

How about you talk to your bf about this using SET with heavy emphasis on the E-part (validation)?

S.E.T. starts with signaling Support.

I'm concerned that the situation with _____ has become overwhelming.  How can things get less overwhelming? 


It continues with demonstrating Empathy.


This is a tenuous situation for everyone.  This is rare for a girl in her 40's to have _____.  I understand how much she means to you and the thought of your ex passing one day is too much for you to bear. 

(This is the part I personally have difficulty understanding why he feels so much for a woman who left him over 6 years ago that he would give up our relationship to go take care of her.  But I do understand he feels this way for her.)

It concludes with expressing Truth.

About 10 hours of your days are spent researching her medical condition, talking to others about her, and talking to her.   You work 4 hours.  You do house stuff for a few hours  and you sleep for 6 hours. 




So how does this help?  His answer to how to help is to move her, and her family into our home and for me to help.   And her illness will most likely go on for many years. 

What would you do?

[123Phoebe]

Eeyore, only you know how much of this you want to take on and I feel for you

I think the Truth part should be about your truth and how this situation effects you/what you're going to do to take care of yourself.

Dearman might be better for a situation of this magnitude.

I don't know what your relationship is like with this woman, but is it really your place to take care of her; do you want to?  If he moved her in, would you move out?

What is your boundary around this?

[eeyore]

She behaved poorly towards me the first 3 years.  We instituted a boundary that he would not go places with her without me.  She would ask him to go to doctor appointment and not tell me or to meet for lunch etc.  She was the proverbial I want my cake and to eat it too type.  There was a time where she wanted to get back together with him and that was very trying on our relationship.

In the past 3 years she has accepted that I am not going anywhere.  We have gotten to the point of cordial to one another before her diagnosis.  Since her hospitalization she has been warm and thankful and I do feel compassion for her.  I don't have an issue with her behavior.  I have an issue with his over zealous behavior in taking care of her.  However, I don't feel she's been understanding of how I feel about the situation and I'm certain it's unintentional as she's suffering with the emotions of coming to terms with having an illness. I feel it's inappropriate for him to be so involved given the situation. I'm not comfortable with my feelings if she were to be in our home for more than a visit. 


I am interested in what other people would do?  Am I really that selfish as he says or is that the BPD way of saying something to win the argument? 

Given I have over 5,000 posts I feel I have learned DEARMAN and SET just fine.

I need help with sorting out my feelings.  What do other people do in situations like this?  Are exes really that involved when they have new partners/spouses?  Should there be a boundary?  My gut feeling is telling me something's wrong.  But I don't know what.  How many doctor appointments should he be going to?   I have asked some mutual friends that are couples.  That means his friends that have wives.   Can you guess what they thought?

[MaybeSo]

It's unusual for an ex to be this involved. Concerned and supportive, depending on the history and kids in common... . but, very unusual to put this much time and energy into an ex who is ill.

You said she has a man living with her?

What does her bf think of her ex H riding in on a white horse like this? Usually, your family and current partner would be the ones in that role, not the ex H... . who has his own new life and a partner.

My ex husband is in the medical field and a very nice, coey kind of guy, and we have a daughter together and have always remained friendly and good coparents. He'd be very

upset and concerned if I became ill. I'm sure he would visit me in the hospital (not for days

at a time, he would visit) and try to be of practical help if he could, but there is no way in

hell he would suggest to move me into his home with his current gf! He might if we were both singal again at the time, but otherwise, no way. If he did today,  I think his gf  would

leave him. I would not agree to it, anyway... . unless I were on deaths door and had no one else at to care for me in my last days on earth or something.

So, ya, it's a very, very unusual situation.

[eeyore]

You said she has a man living with her?

What does he think of her ex H riding in on a white horse like this? Usually, your family and current partner would be the ones in that role, not the ex H who has his own new life and a partner.

Yes she moved in with her boyfriend.  I believe they have been together 2 years.  I don't know what he thinks.  He doesn't talk to me.  The first time we met them together I gave him my e-mail because I was interested to know something and he said he would e-mail me the information.  The next day I was told how incensed that made her feel.  Basically she gets her boyfriend and mine and I'm the red headed step child.  :)oes that paint the picture well enough for why our relationship has been strained?  

Thanks for the information on what is usual.  Is there anyone here who thinks that his involvement would be typical?  I'm just wondering?  

By the way, no kids for any of us. 

[Suzn]

Eeyore this is a unusual situation for sure. If I were in your shoes I think I would attempt to share that her bf is the main caregiver since they are in a relationship and that he may be uncomfortable keeping boundaries. Therefore it may be over stepping to do too much. Some people only step up given the opportunity. In other words don't under estimate his capabilities. Otherwise he could leave and then this presumed responsibility may very well fall in your bf's lap... . and yours. Keep your boundaries eeyore. If it feels uncomfortable to you then maybe your boundaries are being compromised. You are the only one that can control your boundaries.

[eeyore]

If I were in your shoes I think I would attempt to share that her bf is the main caregiver since they are in a relationship and that he may be uncomfortable keeping boundaries.

Thanks.  This has been mentioned to him by others as well.  My BF believes his ex's BF is less than capable.  He believes her sister should be stepping up. I believe because my BF keeps taking it as his responsibility the others let him.  Her family lives about 5 hours away by non stop direct flight to the area so they are too far to really care give.   And they would be lucky to get a non stop direct flight.  They would need to make a big life change to be where we live.

[Skip]

I don't know if this really is a question of appropriateness as much as it is a question of personal values.

Your boyfriend has a 25 year relationship with his ex that has continued past the divorce.  Clearly she is family to him.  It is not typical.  It is also not unheard of.  I attended a family holiday event last year where an exwife attended and she was as much family as anyone in the room.

You struggled with this in 2009 and decided to stay in the relationship and accept this.  They have maintained their relationship while both have developed separate live-in romantic relationships.  It doesn't seem to be a romantic threat to your relationship.

I can accept this is the way it will be and nothing will change.  I'm choosing a path and I'm asking people for what the options are for ME to make a decision.  ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN YOUR POSTS MAKES ANY SUGGESTION AS TO A DECISION FOR WHAT ACTION I MIGHT TAKE OR HOW TO DEAL WITH MY FEELINGS.   My decision and action are what are going to make my life change.  I'm done looking in the mirror.  I've been doing that for a long time and I've been making changes.  Things are MUCH better in a relatively short amount of time.   I'm to the point of making a decision and taking an action.  I'm preparing for what lies ahead. The good, the bad, the ugly.

So, right now your boyfriend is being a good family member in this time of significant need.  If this were his brother, you probably wouldn't feel as slighted - you might even be impressed.

If you try to stop him, you are probably going to do a lot of damage to the relationship and look selfish to others.

Maybe the best thing right now is to join him - be a part of it - get her boyfriend, your boyfriend together and discuss how best to help her - maybe get him (her boyfriend) more involved.

Also, if you feel there is an area of neglect - raise it in a problem solving discussion - be specific and look for a specific solution.

[MaybeSo]

I remember it was tuff in the past, because the ex crossed some boundaries and wasn't very nice to you.

But, it sounds like things have been much better in the last couple years?

Her illness doesn't appear to pose the same threat as in the past; she isn't pursuing him.

But, he does appear to consider her family, she's an important attachment for him.

I geuss I'd be torn about disrupting my relationship with my ex because he is legitimately concerned about another person. My ex's interest in others was always strictly romantic. A sick person is not "romantic". It's hard work and emotionally upsetting to see a close one sick or suffering.

I geuss part of me would love to see my ex put this kind of effort into another individual under such difficult circumstances, even if it was his ex wife.

In fact, my ex's ex wife had breast cancer a couPle of years ago. I always felt very alarmed and was always checking how she was with through the kids, would have kids bring her flowers out of the garden etc. My ex didn't care about it one bit.  He was too bitter to care. I really dislike that about him. A lot.

I think your guy shows much more basic compassion and maturity than my guy. I would love to see that kind of concern from my ex toward someone who isn't feeling or looking fantastic. In other words, I'd like to see my ex more attached in a sgnificant way, to others, because I think it would be a sign of better mental health.

[eeyore]

So, right now your boyfriend is being a good family member in this time of significant need.  If this were his brother, you probably wouldn't feel as slighted - you might even be impressed.

Thanks for the input. 

Just wondering did you see that he's asking to move his ex and her family into our home?  At this time I don't see the need as significant.  I feel it's over dramatization and melodramatics. 

1.  He absolutely hates his brother right now and says he wouldn't lift a finger for his brother ever.  His brother told him he thought he was acting inappropriately. 

2.  His guy friends have initiated conversations with me about their feelings that his behavior is over the line and disrespectful of my feelings.

[eeyore]

In fact, my ex's ex wife had breast cancer a couPle of years ago. I always felt very alarmed and was always checking how she was with through the kids, would have kids bring her flowers out of the garden etc.

Yes I've visited with her and I've sent flowers to her hospital room from me.  He didn't want to send flowers from "us".   

I'm not saying he shouldn't be concerned or involved I just think it's over the top. 

[123Phoebe]

Just wondering did you see that he's asking to move his ex and her family into our home?  At this time I don't see the need as significant.  I feel it's over dramatization and melodramatics.  

The fact that's he's asking may indicate that he's confused also about what is appropriate given the nature of her illness.

He obviously and understandably has strong feelings about this.  As do you.

I still don't think it's your responsibility to hop on board and agree to it wholeheartedly, unless you want to.  And wanting to, has varying degrees of the role you'd play concerning her care... .  

Even married couples negotiate caregiving when it comes to caring for elderly parents, sometimes opting for living with, sometimes opting for living closer but off premises, designated feeding/medicating/bathing duties, in-home nursing agencies stepping in for some of it etc... .

How much time will you have together to nurture your own relationship?  Respite for your (and his) own self care, separate from each other's.  And how many years are we talking here?  Is she able to take care of herself at this time?  

I don't think you're a selfish person for not wanting her and her family to move into your shared home.  What about her boyfriend?  Will he move in also?  How does he feel about this?  I think selfishness only fits into the equation if you're not willing to try to understand you bf's point of view about it, or concerned about her welfare and willing to negotiate.  Which doesn't sound like this is the case at all.  

Is your bf taking your concerns into consideration and willing to negotiate a plan that takes everyone's best interests into consideration?  Or is he riding in as the White Knight?  Something in between?

This is a situation that has the potential to bring your relationship closer or blow it apart.

Tough decisions facing everyone.  A lot of emotions flying around.

I think I'd try to stay very very realistic about it, knowing myself and how much I can handle.

This is a tough situation, Eeyore.  And your own personal values will have to enter into it.

Take really good care of yourself and hopefully the path forward will become clearer... .

[Skip]

Just wondering did you see that he's asking to move his ex and her family into our home?  

Is this the pending issue right now?  Has an invitation been extended and is being considered by her or her family to move into the home you share?  Or was this gesturing?

2.  His guy friends have initiated conversations with me about their feelings that his behavior is over the line and disrespectful of my feelings.

Are they having this conversation with him?  

eeyore,

It's understandable that you don't like this.  And there are any people that would have long ago considered the relationship with the exwife uncomfortable and too compromising of their values and walked away.  

And certainly bringing anyone into the home for hospice care is a huge decision that you need to be part of.  Its a life changing event.  No question.  

You can say it's too much and walk now.  

But if you want to stay, it might be best to (1) keep it all in perspective (there is a long history of her being family), (2) focus on the 1-2 most significant tangible issues and (3) break this down and work through it.

Of course the other option is to stay and be generally offended by the whole thing and escalate the conflict to a standoff - with the hope he will realize that he is over the top and will stop, know what changes need to be made, and will make them - or with the hope that he will ask you to direct his participation.

[eeyore]

Is this the pending issue right now?  Has an invitation been extended and is being considered by her or her family to move into the home you share?  Or was this gesturing?

When she first went into the hospital it was a pending issue to him without having a diagnosis. He had to have my answer immediately if she needed hospice  she and her family stay in our home.  He asked me repeatedly.  I feel, It's a realistic subject to discuss for if/when the time comes now that we have a diagnosis.  And my answer is/was, "currently I'm not comfortable with it".

Once he knew that she was going to live but needed surgery and future care, leads us to the NOW situation.  He wants to know if they can be brought to our home while she recovers, gets future treatments because her boyfriend's house isn't as large as our home. My answer has been I'm not comfortable with that.   That means this week for 3 days & nights and other times in the future.    I don't know if he extended the offer or hinted at it.  I know he's asking me so that he can extend the offer and know he has my buy in. 

I feel she should be with all of her things not just treating our home as her family's hotel getaway.  For me when I'm sick I don't want to be at a vacation place.  I want all my creature comforts that I am accustomed to right there.   Her treatments may be challenging for her and if all her creature comforts are necessary, most likely it will be me accommodating her.   For example, in the hospital she wanted a slurpee.  Of the 4 people in the room.  I heard her say it twice and it was enough for me to go get her one.  The rest of them sat there clueless.  I know she appreciated that I saw what would make her feel comfortable when she was in pain and just wanted a slurpee.  I don't mind helping as I can but I know that her needs will become too great for me and the situation will make me very unhappy.  I know it will be more than getting a slurpee.

Moreover, I predict if our home is their vacation getaway that makes me the maid, cook, and nurse.  Which I am not willing to do for people who have always invited him to lunch, dinner, events and specifically said I wasn't invited.  Kudos to him that he saw this as unfair to me and declined unless they were willing to be cordial to me.  They never were.  The first time I ever met these people was at the hospital as they would never acknowledge me before.  We were all cordial which was good.  It's a shame that it takes an illness for people to be cordial.  I can think of many scenarios that might build a bridge to a better relationship but we aren't there yet. 

Are they having this conversation with him?  

Yes I believe people are.   I understand from my BF that he is currently so angry at his brother for telling him he was too involved.  I should add he has never had a great relationship with his brother.  I know of two other people who talked to him.  As of this morning I do think he's tempered his position due to those conversations. 

Thank you for the other advise.  I don't want to make things worse.  I am willing to walk away if it becomes too much.  For now I think I'm just assessing the situation trying to sort my feelings out.   I think we reached consensus this morning that she won't be staying at our home in the near future.  He might try to find them a beach condo.  So the next question is who will pay for that.  This isn't affordable to them.  I do know a dire time will come but it's not now.  And I want to leave my options open. 

[eeyore]

Thanks Phoebe for the good comments. 

Even married couples negotiate caregiving when it comes to caring for elderly parents, sometimes opting for living with, sometimes opting for living closer but off premises, designated feeding/medicating/bathing duties, in-home nursing agencies stepping in for some of it etc... .

I agree.  In our relationship most of this stuff falls to me.  He deals with house maintenance. 

How much time will you have together to nurture your own relationship?  Respite for your (and his) own self care, separate from each other's.  And how many years are we talking here?  Is she able to take care of herself at this time?  

That's one of my biggest issues.  He doesn't want to nurture our relationship he only worries about her.  When we spend time together it's me watching him cry over her.   She can walk and drive her car.  She could fully recover and live a long normal life but it's highly unlikely. 

I don't think you're a selfish person for not wanting her and her family to move into your shared home.  What about her boyfriend?  Will he move in also?  How does he feel about this?  I think selfishness only fits into the equation if you're not willing to try to understand you bf's point of view about it, or concerned about her welfare and willing to negotiate.  Which doesn't sound like this is the case at all.  

I don't know what the boyfriend is thinking because I have not been included in the conversations with him.  Generally speaking given his history his stability is highly suspect.  While he may love her his ability is limited.  (Financially and emotionally)

Is your bf taking your concerns into consideration and willing to negotiate a plan that takes everyone's best interests into consideration?  Or is he riding in as the White Knight?  Something in between?

He is the White Knight.  It would be easy for her to misconstrue his attention.  She has always said if she could ever have the chance to be back with him she would. 

I feel he isn't considering other people's interest.  Per your above question about the boyfriend, I asked if he would be coming as well.  My bf's answer was "well someone has to take care of his dog and his dog can't come here and I'm not sure who would take care of the dog if he didn't."  I feel my BF has already taken her BF out of the picture.  Obviously my bf and I have a difference on opinion about this.