Triangle question

[Depression = 72% of members]

               Click on diagram to see lead site article


Reading about the triangle, victim, rescuer, perpetrator. Most of us started out as the rescuer and in my case my GF was the victim. So my question is.

Is the perpetrator the last BF, family friend, or someone that is the reason the GF is acting out as the victim?

So are there actually 3 players in this triangle, or do the two people (GF & BF) switch back and forth between the 3 points of the triangle?

The reason for the question stems from a point I read the other day, about not having contact with the ex. And by doing this, the 3rd leg, that would be me (the ex BF as the perpetrator now). Would cause the triangle to fall much quicker, like a 3 leg stool with only two legs. Because if I'm not engaging in the triangle with arguing about the relationship (not adding the drama for them). Then the GF would turn on the new guy, or start looking for someone else to be the new BF. So the soon to be ex BF would become the perpetrator, because he just got dumped, and is trying to save the relationship...

Do I have this right?

[dangoldfool]

               Click on diagram to see lead site article


Reading about the triangle, victim, rescuer, perpetrator. Most of us started out as the rescuer and in my case my GF was the victim. So my question is.

Is the perpetrator the last BF, family friend, or someone that is the reason the GF is acting out as the victim?

So are there actually 3 players in this triangle, or do the two people (GF & BF) switch back and forth between the 3 points of the triangle?

The reason for the question stems from a point I read the other day, about not having contact with the ex. And by doing this, the 3rd leg, that would be me (the ex BF as the perpetrator now). Would cause the triangle to fall much quicker, like a 3 leg stool with only two legs. Because if I'm not engaging in the triangle with arguing about the relationship (not adding the drama for them). Then the GF would turn on the new guy, or start looking for someone else to be the new BF. So the soon to be ex BF would become the perpetrator, because he just got dumped, and is trying to save the relationship...

Do I have this right?

[TheDude]

Hey dof, Are you referring to the 'Karpman' triangle thing? I believe that generally refers to the dynamics between two people, not three, although I suppose the concept could involve variations. I've seen it referred to that people who quickly move from partner to partner are traversing monkey bars. Hmm. A triangular shaped monkey bar set? Maybe that's why there's recycling, since a triangle is like a closed loop.

I love analogies. 

[mitchell16]

when I started dating my exBPDgf. I didnt know anything about BPD or trigulation, never heard of it. BUt i remember during the first weeks of dating she told me all these horror stories about ex boyfriends and family members treating her bad. She told me how I was the type of man she prayed for, man of integrity, how she felt safe with men. She told me how she had an ex husband who stalked her who threaten to get even and he would never let her go. later in the relationship when ever she wanted to insult me she used "its not me saying stuff about you its them" for example she woudl say " sally says your to controlling" when I asked her to explain how so. she never could. But I would get mad at sally. Or if she wanted to go off and leave me behind for a weekend, " she would say " i want you to go but my child (23 years old) wants it to be just me and them. once while with her she texted her ex husband the one she wsa so afraid of. When I asked her why she did that she said I want you to tell him off for how he treated me. That was 5 years before me and her even met and this man hasnt caused us a minute of problems. But i figured her motive was to get two guy fighting or arguing over her which would validate her and make her feel even more wanted. Just my opinion. So how I understand trigulation, it all about drama, all about using a 3rd person to do whatever they need done. She has used 3rd persons to even validate me. So I think trigulation is using a 3rd person to get whatever they need, insult you, validate them, make you a rescuer or a persecutor. Just whatever they need to make them feel better. I could be wrong but this how i understand trigulation.

[laelle]

I believe BPD behavior helps to keep their emotions contained and under control. 

Like being bullemic helps to keep the emotions of someone with bullemia contained and under control.

It is a need to feed the pain (cause) and then purge (effect) once the pain is satisfied ... . until the next time they are in pain... .

This is just my opinion... .

[TigerEye]

Drama fuels the emotions, be it "woe is me" victim or "It's all your fault" persecutor and "I'll save you" rescuer.

pwBPD need drama, it allows them to "feel" something, they can't do those more subtle emotions. Drama exists perfectly as set out by Karpman. In the beginning you were indeed the Rescuer and the pwBPD the Victim. Everyone's positions on the triangle are not fixed though. Whilst you were the Rescuer the stories you were told were based round whoever fitted into the role of persecutor for each tale, ex's, family, friends etc, what ever it took to ensure that you became faithful in your role.

As the relationship developed, and most likely without you even realising, you were moved from rescuer to persecutor (why that happens is another tale), suddenly, you questioning things that didn't quite fit were heard by the pwBPD as punitive, critical and controlling, (something they remember well from their up bringing and now plays like a loop in their head) how ever nicely you thought you put it.

So with you now taking up the position of Persecutor that leaves the rescuer role open to be filled, in some cases, by the very people who were originally the perceived Persecutor, the ex's, family, friends. Failing that it's the old BPD favourite, bring in someone new with those tales of woe.

The Drama Triangle is like a game of chess with people moving around the positions at the whim of the pwBPD, and this is why you hear people say "the best way to win is not to play", leave it to others.



Don't forget, you're in this triangle too. When you're being raged at, they're your Persecutor, you are the Victim, so who was your Rescuer, did you have one?

[dangoldfool]

TigerEye, you said

Don't forget, you're in this triangle too. When you're being raged at, they're your Persecutor, you are the Victim, so who was your Rescuer, did you have one?


I don't think I was ever raged at in  the 3 year relationship.

As the end of the r/s came up. I didn't know she was setting up the trailer home that I helped her to get and furnish, for herself, and the new friend. Now BF. She just left me thinking everything was fine. I found out as her story started to fall apart. 

I guess the new BF is the rescuer, as he has her problems now?

But with NC from me, where/who is the Persecutor now?

[TigerEye]

It will quite simply be whoever she feels fits the bill, you don't have to be present to fulfil that role, it's what ever she needs to bring about the desired reaction/attachment in the person she's with at the time.

By being NC you're not involved in the game, as in, you are not reacting. This is her drama and you're having nothing to do with it, the only way to win.

I don't know your whole back story, but generally speaking there are many distorted perceptions in the mind of the pwBPD so there is every chance that the persecution is not based on reality as you see it. 

[talithacumi]

Regardless of what starting position you take/are assigned in the Karpman triangle (victim, rescuer, or perpetrator), everyone is actually a victim of, and victimized by the disordered emotional dynamics in play.

The victim perceives him/herself as being forced in some way by someone/something (the perpetrator) to suffer some kind of completely unwarranted slight, discomfort, hurt, or damage ... . or to engage in some kind of absolutely reckless, irresponsible, irrational, insensitive, or otherwise personally reprehensible behavior with the same result to themself/others ... . from which, in the former case, they need to be protected/rescued ... . for which, in the latter case, they need to be excused/forgiven altogether, relieved of all responsibility, and not made to suffer any consequences ... . and in both cases, be given the understanding, compassion, sympathy, comfort, and support they feel they actually deserve for having been forced to endure such horrific treatment from another human being in the first place.

The chosen/designated rescuer perceives him/herself as having no choice under the circumstances but to do all of the above for the victim ... . regardless of their actual ability, the cost to their own relative safety/welfare/self-esteem, and even in defiance of their own perception, understanding, thoughts, beliefs, and feelings about the relative validity of the injustice/harm the designated victim claims to be suffering at the hands of the chosen/designated perpetrator.

It is the designated perpetrator, however, who generally ends up being the real victim in this dynamic. They often aren't aware of the accusations being made, or blame being placed on them by the designated victim. They often aren't actually guilty of, or responsible in any way for either one of those things. And they frequently find themselves being subjected to punitive treatment/actions for both that they neither understand nor deserve.

The perpetrator, in this triangle, largely seems to be the most convenient/rational/reasonable/effective object the designated victim can use to get whatever it is they need/want in the moment from the rescuer.

We think tend to think of the perpetrator as another person. An abusive parent, boss, co-worker, ex-partner, friend, neighbor. Your teenaged/willfully hateful children. The innocent-looking friend of a friend in the bar who slipped her a ruffie and took advantage of her in his car. That crazy infatuated girl who's just saying/doing all these horrible things because she's jealous.

The perpetrator can also be an organization. The IRS or a collection agency. The bank. The hospital. The company she/he works for. The police. Any agency with any modicum of possible control over any aspect of someone's life.

And the perpetrator can also just be an abstract concept. The strong feelings someone still has about an ex-partner and/or the children, home, hobbies, interests, life they shared that interfere with their ability to invest/commit themselves as fully as they'd like/are expected to someone else.

Clearly, neither an organization nor an abstract concept can actively participate in the emotional/psychological dynamic that lies at the heart of the Karpman triangle - yet both are seen/used for that purpose by both the victim/rescuer on a regular basis.

Under the circumstances, there really seem to be only two people playing the game. The victim who created it, and the rescuer/fixer/caretaker for whom it was created ... . who, when it doesn't work to get the victim what he/she wants, by the way, often becomes the persecutor from whom rescue/fixing/caretaking by another can/will be leveraged by the victim.

It's all about the victim getting the interest, understanding, approval, support, and unconditional love/acceptance they can't get from, and aren't able to provide for themselves.

Which begs the question: why did we all play for as long as we did ourselves?


   

[dangoldfool]

Which begs the question: why did we all play for as long as we did ourselves?

Because were insane in the membrane, insane in the brain.

talithacumi,  Reading your post/answer, I'd would guess, you are a lawyer. Really good answer. Thank you.

[talithacumi]

"Reading your post/answer, I'd would guess, you are a lawyer."



Definitely NOT!

Just someone who's been designated the perpetrator in absentia, as an abstract concept, mostly without my immediate/direct knowledge, never with any real cause, and frequently with the consequence of being stalked, harassed, and threatened by one, the other, or both of them acting in cooperation with each other.

I've accepted the fact that I "asked" for the treatment I got while we were together because of my own core issues.

But I know, for a fact, that I didn't "ask" for the treatment I've gotten ever since he made the decision to dump/abandon me in typical BPD fashion after 12+ years for a woman he'd known/been sleeping with for less than a month.

Me being made the perpetrator was essential to justifying his initial interest in her, fueling her interest/need in being with him, and forging the primary bond upon which their relationship was based. I have been given a number of reasons to believe that one, the other, and/or both of them continue to cast me in that role as necessary in order get from each other whatever it is they need/want in order to continue to justify having the relationship/life they actually have with one another at this point.

At a certain point, it just gets ridiculous.

I've been NC for almost 7 months. Very LC for 6 months before that - maybe one or two text exchanges around the holidays with the usual perfunctory greetings. So a year of basically no real engagement of any kind at all with each other.

Two months ago, I get an email message from her (using an address she hadn't used before and, therefore, I hadn't filtered to go straight to trash) asking me to please try to be normal/nice for once and wish him happy birthday the following week.

I ignored her request. I'd worked really hard to start focusing on myself/my needs, wanted to stay focused, and felt I wouldn't be able to continue to do so if I even tapped - however gently/innocuously - on that particular door right now.

A week later I get another email blaming me for ruining both of their lives by NOT being normal/nice/doing what she asked - which she claimed he'd INSISTED was the ONLY thing he REALLY wanted for his birthday - him being REALLY disappointed/depressed that he didn't get it - him blaming HER for making me not love/like him enough to even wish him a simple happy birthday anymore - her DEFENDING her unquestioned commitment to his eternal happiness by telling him how she'd actually HUMILIATED herself by emailing me/begging me to do it, and telling him how me not doing it SHOULD make him see just how much of a real b***h I actually was/how much better of a partner SHE was than I ever had been/could be instead of the OTHER way around - which, OF COURSE, made him really mad because he'd made her PROMISE never, ever, ever to contact me - which only made HER even madder at him ... . so they had a HUGE fight ... . ON HIS BIRTHDAY ... . and broke UP ... . (again!) ... . ALL BECAUSE OF ME! ... . and would I please just stay the F**K out of their lives once and for all.

A year after consciously, intentionally, and deliberately taking myself off that damn triangle - and I get this.

Unbelievable.

Being the perpetrator sucks.

[Skip]

I want the new relationship to fail badly, and the new BF to get dumped as hard as me. Maybe that's me being mean or something. But this guy knew we were in a relationship. And just walked right on in. So I hope she reels him in, and throat hooks him. I don't want her back. I just want her to suffer some pain that she seems to have side stepped away from, dropping me on my head. &%$^**^.

Not sure this is a "Karpman" question.

Isn't the real question "if I go NC will it hasten the demise of the new relationship?".

The answer is that it could go either way and the relationship success depends  a lot more on their relationship dynamics than Karpman dynamics.

I think we can all agree that having two men vying for her affection is ego boosting and when one drops out, the ego high drifts off.

It's probably also true that while you are in the picture, the other guy is going to try harder.

Its probably safe to say that any new relationship has less than a 50% chance of going six months.

And its probably safe to say that if you want to be in a position to step back in when and if the new relationship fails, the sooner and more dignified you release the better.

But drawing two people into a persecutor/victim dynamic by going n/c is not so clear as Karpman sayz that the triangle is a result of non-resolving relationship conflict - not the need of a constant persecutor.

[dangoldfool]

Skip

Thanks for the link on my original post, that helped me to understand a little more clearly.

Isn't the real question "if I go NC will it hasten the demise of the new relationship?".

That probably was a hidden question in my original post.

But honestly I wanted to know if 3 people actually had to be involved to make the triangle work. Like me, GF(new guy drama) OR me, her (ex BF drama)   

talithacumi 

I enjoyed reading your post, looks like you've done your research. Seems like you just can't win. 

[Learning_curve74]

Skip

Thanks for the link on my original post, that helped me to understand a little more clearly.

Isn't the real question "if I go NC will it hasten the demise of the new relationship?".

That probably was a hidden question in my original post.

But honestly I wanted to know if 3 people actually had to be involved to make the triangle work. Like me, GF(new guy drama) OR me, her (ex BF drama)   

Triangulation is different from the Karpman drama triangle.

Only two people are needed to move through the three roles of the Karpman triangle. You can start out as rescuer of your gf victim, but then you find her demands on you so oppressive she becomes a persecutor to you who is now feeling being the victim. Maybe you eventually get angry about it and start to fight back going into the persecutor role and your gf responds by trying to subdue your anger thereby going into rescuer mode. And so on and so on. This drama continues when each person feels too responsible for the other person's feelings and actions. If each person recognizes that they are adults responsible for their own well being, then they can avoid getting trapped in the Karpman drama triangle.

Triangulation is when the relationship between two people is directly affected affected by bringing in a third person. It could destabilize or stabilize the original two pertain relationship. They don't necessarily have to fit the roles in the Karpman triangle. For example a couple may feel disconnected from each other but when their baby is born, they pull together in solidarity to give their new child as much love as possible and it rekindles the love connection between the couple. In this case, triangulation can be seen as a positive thing.

If you're trying to get your ex back or break her and her current bf up, be careful about playing games trying to stack the odds based on what you think the situation is from psychology. She and he might decide not to play nice! You can only control your own actions and not that of other people.

[Skip]

Excellent description of the differences between Karpman and triangulation.

[gettingoverit]

"Reading your post/answer, I'd would guess, you are a lawyer."



Definitely NOT!

Just someone who's been designated the perpetrator in absentia, as an abstract concept, mostly without my immediate/direct knowledge, never with any real cause, and frequently with the consequence of being stalked, harassed, and threatened by one, the other, or both of them acting in cooperation with each other.

I've accepted the fact that I "asked" for the treatment I got while we were together because of my own core issues.

But I know, for a fact, that I didn't "ask" for the treatment I've gotten ever since he made the decision to dump/abandon me in typical BPD fashion after 12+ years for a woman he'd known/been sleeping with for less than a month.

Me being made the perpetrator was essential to justifying his initial interest in her, fueling her interest/need in being with him, and forging the primary bond upon which their relationship was based. I have been given a number of reasons to believe that one, the other, and/or both of them continue to cast me in that role as necessary in order get from each other whatever it is they need/want in order to continue to justify having the relationship/life they actually have with one another at this point.

At a certain point, it just gets ridiculous.

I've been NC for almost 7 months. Very LC for 6 months before that - maybe one or two text exchanges around the holidays with the usual perfunctory greetings. So a year of basically no real engagement of any kind at all with each other.

Two months ago, I get an email message from her (using an address she hadn't used before and, therefore, I hadn't filtered to go straight to trash) asking me to please try to be normal/nice for once and wish him happy birthday the following week.

I ignored her request. I'd worked really hard to start focusing on myself/my needs, wanted to stay focused, and felt I wouldn't be able to continue to do so if I even tapped - however gently/innocuously - on that particular door right now.

A week later I get another email blaming me for ruining both of their lives by NOT being normal/nice/doing what she asked - which she claimed he'd INSISTED was the ONLY thing he REALLY wanted for his birthday - him being REALLY disappointed/depressed that he didn't get it - him blaming HER for making me not love/like him enough to even wish him a simple happy birthday anymore - her DEFENDING her unquestioned commitment to his eternal happiness by telling him how she'd actually HUMILIATED herself by emailing me/begging me to do it, and telling him how me not doing it SHOULD make him see just how much of a real b***h I actually was/how much better of a partner SHE was than I ever had been/could be instead of the OTHER way around - which, OF COURSE, made him really mad because he'd made her PROMISE never, ever, ever to contact me - which only made HER even madder at him ... . so they had a HUGE fight ... . ON HIS BIRTHDAY ... . and broke UP ... . (again!) ... . ALL BECAUSE OF ME! ... . and would I please just stay the F**K out of their lives once and for all.

A year after consciously, intentionally, and deliberately taking myself off that damn triangle - and I get this.

Unbelievable.

Being the perpetrator sucks.

This is spot on! I think that is exactly what holds them together for a long time. Especially if the replacement knew they were in a relationship. I have been placed into the persecuter position by both of them in my situation. Both of them have done and said some pretty horrific bs about me. The only two things they have in common is pot and the fact that they screwed me over. That's it. My xBPDgf can pretend to be anything she needs to be in order to keep her "soul mate", even to the point of convincing marriage after three weeks. Sooner or later however, reality sets in and the real person with BPD sets in. They can't keep blaming you forever. Even for them that gets old. As you mentioned... . it really does get ridiculous.