Allegations, Motions, and threats... Oh my

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi all,

I'm hoping that maybe some of you have been in this position and can advise or at least give me some idea of how these things normally work. Here's the situation:

My fiance shares 50/50 custody of 2 children (D4 and S7) with his dBPDxw. It has been chaotic, but recently things have escalated to new levels of crazy. She recently filed charges against her father (the kid's granddad) alleging sexual abuse of D4. D4 was interviewed by CAC and they found absolutely nothing to substantiate the claim. (I don't for a minute belief the accusations hold any truth. The kids absolutely adore their grandparents.) I have no idea where the police investigation stands, but she has additionally filed for an RO against him, and the first hearing on that is scheduled for this week.

The month before this happened, we found out that she has blown through all of the money she received in the divorce settlement, as well as all the CS/SS payments she receives: in total about $190,000 in 10 months. Her car was repossessed. She couldn't pay her bills, etc. (Of course this was fiance's fault... . )

She has also fraudulently used both her sister's and fiance's credit card numbers (we have no idea how she got them), and we have filed police reports on that which are pending investigation.

She is now threatening to file kidnapping charges against fiance and I because we took the kids on a weekend trip "without getting her authorized approval" (which we don't need based on the court orders).

My questions is this: She seems to be out of control (understatement of the century, I know), but I'm unclear about what expectations to have regarding how these things will play out in court. Additionally, in my opinion, making false allegations of that time against both her father and us seem to be putting the kids in a horrible position, and while our lawyer agrees, he thinks going for custody at this point is a crapshoot and would actually be ill-advised until all the charges are settled. (She looks like the good, attentive parent for noticing and coming forward.) The family court system here seems to make most of their decisions based from an attachment theory perspective and are very pro-mother's rights. Has anyone had any experience with this?

The kiddos prefer to be at our house. They cry every time we have to drop them off with her. In fact, D4 doesn't even call her mother mom, and says constantly, "I don't want to go to hit_'s house. Hers fights with me all the time." We want to do what's best for them, and that would in a normal situation mean having a relationship and time with their mother. But none of this seems like a normal situation.

Any advice about the court process, observations that I may be missing, suggestions for keeping our sanity would be greatly appreciated.

[TRexwrangler]

Hi all,

I'm hoping that maybe some of you have been in this position and can advise or at least give me some idea of how these things normally work. Here's the situation:

My fiance shares 50/50 custody of 2 children (D4 and S7) with his dBPDxw. It has been chaotic, but recently things have escalated to new levels of crazy. She recently filed charges against her father (the kid's granddad) alleging sexual abuse of D4. D4 was interviewed by CAC and they found absolutely nothing to substantiate the claim. (I don't for a minute belief the accusations hold any truth. The kids absolutely adore their grandparents.) I have no idea where the police investigation stands, but she has additionally filed for an RO against him, and the first hearing on that is scheduled for this week.

The month before this happened, we found out that she has blown through all of the money she received in the divorce settlement, as well as all the CS/SS payments she receives: in total about $190,000 in 10 months. Her car was repossessed. She couldn't pay her bills, etc. (Of course this was fiance's fault... . )

She has also fraudulently used both her sister's and fiance's credit card numbers (we have no idea how she got them), and we have filed police reports on that which are pending investigation.

She is now threatening to file kidnapping charges against fiance and I because we took the kids on a weekend trip "without getting her authorized approval" (which we don't need based on the court orders).

My questions is this: She seems to be out of control (understatement of the century, I know), but I'm unclear about what expectations to have regarding how these things will play out in court. Additionally, in my opinion, making false allegations of that time against both her father and us seem to be putting the kids in a horrible position, and while our lawyer agrees, he thinks going for custody at this point is a crapshoot and would actually be ill-advised until all the charges are settled. (She looks like the good, attentive parent for noticing and coming forward.) The family court system here seems to make most of their decisions based from an attachment theory perspective and are very pro-mother's rights. Has anyone had any experience with this?

The kiddos prefer to be at our house. They cry every time we have to drop them off with her. In fact, D4 doesn't even call her mother mom, and says constantly, "I don't want to go to hit_'s house. Hers fights with me all the time." We want to do what's best for them, and that would in a normal situation mean having a relationship and time with their mother. But none of this seems like a normal situation.

Any advice about the court process, observations that I may be missing, suggestions for keeping our sanity would be greatly appreciated.

[Matt]

Tell us about your attorney - how you found him, what experience he has with cases like this, and what he has told you about the way the process works where you live.

And what will your role(s) be in the case against her father - will you be witnesses, and have you been in touch with him and his attorney?  Does he have a criminal defense attorney?  And are they taking any actions to hold her accountable, such as filing criminal or civil charges against her for making those accusations?

I'm not an attorney and nobody here can give you legal advice.  My gut tells me that filing for primary custody soon might be good, because it will take a long time for that case to be heard, and in the meantime you can be gathering information and building your case.  Maybe you can find out about the time involved, and how long it might take for the accusations against her father to be resolved.

[david]

Finding the right attorney is key. The legal system is a set of rules and someone that knows how to play the game best wins. The threats and allegations are roadblocks that should be taken seriously. I was arrested for a false allegation and jailed. I now carry an audio and video recorder with me whenever I pick our boys up.

[Matt]

I was arrested for a false allegation and jailed.

Me too.

[ForeverDad]

There is no limit to what she might do.  She squandered her settlement, committed identity theft or stole credit cards.  Now she's moved up to false allegations.  Sadly the professionals won't call them false or even unfounded, probably just 'unsubstantiated'.

You can't start out trying to make a deal with such a person.  You may end up with some sort of settlement but don't start out with that idea in mind.  A deal made too soon won't be in your favor.  Halfway decent deals won't happen until some major event is impending.  As an example, I had a 2 year divorce and my ex delayed as much as she could since the temp order was in her favor but was ready to settle only minutes before Trial was to start.

Although the kids aren't in school yet, they soon will be.  Your fiance should try to get Residential Parent for School Purposes if at all possible.  Technically it may not mean much but it would give him a slight edge if he can't get majority time or custody yet.

[Matt]

You can't start out trying to make a deal with such a person.  You may end up with some sort of settlement but don't start out with that idea in mind.  A deal made too soon won't be in your favor.  Halfway decent deals won't happen until some major event is impending.  As an example, I had a 2 year divorce and my ex delayed as much as she could since the temp order was in her favor but was ready to settle only minutes before Trial was to start.

FD and I are coming at the same issue from a couple of different angles... . a super-important issue:  Your lawyer's experience and skills.

What I think FD is implying here - and if so I agree completely - is that you can't assume your attorney is a skilled negotiator.  He may be or he may not be.  Some attorneys have studied how to negotiate skilfully, and some have a talent for it;  others don't.  My first attorney was a very bad negotiator;  I made a change and my second attorney was much better.

Generally, attorneys like to make deals, and generally it's probably in their clients' interests to work out a settlement, since going to trial is expensive and stressful.  But that assumes the other side is acting more-or-less rationally.  If the other party has BPD, or something similar, that assumption isn't valid.  Most of us have found that they won't negotiate in good faith til they see the writing on the wall, which means the date of the trial is approaching and their position is weak.

So... . you may need an attorney with experience in similar cases - cases where the other party has a personality disorder.  And your strategy might need to be - rather than focusing primarily on a settlement - focus mostly on preparing for trial - preparing so well that you're very likely to get a good result.  Then, as the trial approaches, the other side will see this - there are lots of ways attorneys can see how the trial is likely to go - and the opposing attorney will decide it's in his client's interest to offer a settlement which is acceptable to you.  So, a few weeks before the trial - or in my case, the day before the trial - the other side will make a good offer, and you'll be able to negotiate a settlement.  It often happens "on the courthouse steps" - that is, very shortly before the trial.  And it's more likely to happen - and you're more likely to get a settlement you're OK with - if you are in a strong position to win at trial.

So... . if your attorney's experience is entirely around settling without a trial, and if he hasn't won some cases (or obtained good settlements) in situations similar to yours, you may want to look carefully at whether he's the right guy for the job.

[TRexwrangler]

Thank you for your thoughts. How does one find out about an attorney's negotiation skills or their experience with cases like these? Our atty was referred to fiance by a friend. He thinks a great deal of him, but I have my doubts. The divorce settlement was not particularly favorable to fiance, even though dBPDxw was hospitalized twice in a psych unit (once for a suicide attempt that was damn near fatal). I'm honestly not sure if that was due to the atty's skills or fiance just wanting to get the damn thing over with (it took two years). We did consult with another atty who was recommended to us, but he shared the same view as the first as far as likelihood of changing the custody agreement, though that was before the false allegations. We also plan to subpoena all of her medical and financial records to see if we can find anything there.

We have been in contact with her father who does have an atty. We told them to subpoena us as witnesses. I don't know if they plan to countersue. I suggested it and hope that they do, but they were really blindsided by all of this and are terribly upset.   

[TRexwrangler]

Sorry if my questions sound a bit naive. This is an entirely new world for me.

[Matt]

Yeah, we're all new to this, but unfortunately we all get way too much experience with these issues over time... .

Let me suggest a couple of ways to evaluate your attorney's ability to help you.

First, I think it's a good idea to be pretty frank with him, and ask him about his experience with similar cases.  He probably won't give you any names, to protect the confidentiality of his previous clients.  But he can tell you "war stories" - examples of cases he has handled, which are similar to yours, and what he learned from them.  Even if he didn't get a good outcome in some cases, if he he learned something of value, which applies to your case, that might help you decide if his experience is right for your case.

Also, I can suggest an approach which helped me evaluate my first attorney.  Decide on your key objectives - what would be a good outcome to your case? - and share those with him, and ask him for a plan to achieve them.  Not a guarantee - no attorney will give you that - but a well-thought-out plan to get from where you are to the results you want.  When I asked my first attorney for that, he got defensive, and told me my objectives weren't realistic - though I later achieved them with the help of another attorney - and got kind of hostile.  So I knew he wasn't the guy for the job - he was more interested in convincing me that my objectives were unrealistic than in helping me to achieve them.

My second attorney was much better - she didn't promise the outcome I wanted, but she was able to suggest practical steps that made sense, to move in the direction I hoped for.

One more thing to consider is talking with some other attorneys,  Some give a free initial consultation, or charge you just for 30 minutes of their time.  You don't have to give anybody a retainer til you're sure.  After talking with a few, you might decide yours is the best, or you might decide he's not, and there is somebody else who could do a better job.

[catnap]

She has also fraudulently used both her sister's and fiance's credit card numbers

It might be prudent to check if she opened any lines of credit using the children's Social Security numbers. 

[TRexwrangler]

Good call. I hadn't even considered that.

[ForeverDad]

If she has committed identify theft/fraud with the children's SSNs or names, then IMO that would be a big reason to seek custody since it directly affects the children's welfare and futures.  It's no longer just adult behaviors that are legally presumed by court not to affect parenting behaviors.

I wouldn't warn her nor give her any ideas.  Just monitor and if it happens then take action regarding the accounts and regarding custody.

[DreamGirl]

She's stressed out. (Yeah, it's me, Captian Obvious)

A pwBPD + stress = dysregulation

The core issues of Borderline Personality Disorder is the inability to regulate emotions. Did something happen with her Dad that would cause this kind of reaction?

My stepkiddos' BPDmama accused her own mom of child abuse - called CPS about her home being unfit for children. Her mom was the kids' daycare provider and was upset when my husband wouldn't agree to a switch (their court order required the BOTH agree and being that my husband was ordered to pay daycare costs, she had no choice really). Her mom not lending her money was the first domino in domino effect that landed CPS at her front door. It all worked out in the end being that the home was more then fit for children.

It's difficult that you're getting all caught up in this; her accusing her own father of sexually molesting the 4 year old is a very serious accustation (and situation). There's no going back here and mama may very well feel that she's doing the "right" thing. She feels there is a means to an end and her belief system probably is suggesting that lying is appropriate when trying to do what's "best". (William Eddy talks about this in his book, Splitting). She's a creature of the moment and doesn't have the skill set to grasp how damaging all of this is (and will be) to everyone involved. Especially to SD4. 

You and your fiance also have to tread lightly because you have your own sanity and well-being to protect here. In my husband's own situation, he never said to his ex-wife what she was doing was wrong. He simply told her that he would agree to disagree.  

I think the 4 year old needs a therapist, of your choosing. If mom is falsely accusing, SD4 needs to help navigate the fact that her mama is actively alienating her from her grandfather.  A therapist will also definitely help bring to the surface any concerns you may have with the situation.

She's your #1 priority here.

Sorry you are going thru all of this - false accusations are so tough.  :'(

~DG

[ForeverDad]

As many have experienced here... . once the allegations start, there's no limit.  Anyone, including you two, can be 'next'.

After my son was born my then-spouse shifted and became more and more "way out there".  At first she just complained about others' comments, glances, etc.  But before long we were losing friends and even my relatives were getting painted black until son (and I) became isolated from former friends now despised.  Isolation is a typical divisive tool used by pwBPD.  Then, with nearly everyone else blacklisted, she started looking sideways and suspiciously at me.  That's when I really accepted the marriage was about to implode.  And it did a few months later.  After we separated it got worse, she started trying to convince all the professionals I too was suspected of child abuse.  She even fooled the child therapy agency for over a year, though I had standard alternate weekends in the temp schedule, it wasn't until the court's own social worker's report recommended I get additional time that the therapists moderated their stance.

Be prepared for her to shift target at some point to BF and/or you.  Why?  She has to make other people look worse than her.  If she is made to look bad - as happened with the exposed fraud - then she had to find some way to make other(s) look worse to distract attention from her own misdeeds.  As DreamGirl asked, probably something happened to her relationship with her Dad that would cause this kind of reaction, perhaps he confronted her about her recent fraud.

[Matt]

Yeah, someone who would make an accusation like that, against a member of her own family - there's probably nothing she might not do at a moment when she is upset.

Consider whether it's safe for you or any member of your family to have any contact with her at all.

[livednlearned]

She is now threatening to file kidnapping charges against fiance and I because we took the kids on a weekend trip "without getting her authorized approval" (which we don't need based on the court orders).

My ex did this too. He tried to use the word "kidnapping" in court, and the judge wouldn't let him. My L objected to the word because it was false, and not accurate in the eyes of the law, and that was that. I know it's hard, but try to not let it get to you. If anything these kinds of threats work in your favor when you put together a case against her.

She recently filed charges against her father (the kid's granddad) alleging sexual abuse of D4. D4 was interviewed by CAC and they found absolutely nothing to substantiate the claim. (I don't for a minute belief the accusations hold any truth. The kids absolutely adore their grandparents.)

How awful for him. In BPD thinking, she may have done that because the kids loved him. She may actually believe it, in the "emotional reasoning" kind of way. "Kids love grandfather + kids don't love me = there must be something wrong." Therefore, she believes her emotions instead of facts. Doesn't make it any easier, and certainly not when you have a charge like that laid against you. Hopefully her dad gets counseling to try and understand BPD, if he doesn't already.

Also, it's not uncommon for non-BPD partners to give up too early or easily. That, combined with a mediocre L can be a trainwreck for the kids. But the courts also have rules about how far back you can go, especially prior to a settlement. The suicide/psychiatric stays may not be admissible now that custody has been settled.

[Matt]

Is there any reason you can't take the kids to visit their grandfather when they are with you?

Might be comforting to both the kids and their grandfather... .

[TRexwrangler]

This all started because we let her parents come visit the kids while they were with us. So, she is now alleging that he abused SD4 5 months ago! I have no idea what her beef with him was before. It's none of my business, and I frankly don't care. The kids love their grandparents, and I think they deserve to have as many loving people in their lives as they can. I'm cautiously optimistic that this will get resolved at the RO hearing, but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.

I know that her stress level dictates the level of hell she slings at everyone else, which makes me worry about what she may do once it is all resolved.

Fortunately, no one (except the kids) has to have any contact with her. The way our custody schedule is set up, one parent drops them at school on Friday and then the other picks them up. (It's actually worked out great.)

Yeah, the parenting coordinator tried to explain to her that a parent can't "kidnap" their own kids, and also that the orders don't say anything about needing to alert the other parent when traveling much less get their ok. So, now she is agree with the parenting coordinator and refusing to meet with him anymore.

I'm sure this will all get worse before it gets better. But, I suppose the worse it gets, the stronger our case becomes. I just hate that she is now using the kiddos as weapons. That's not cool.  Anyway, thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions.

What a damn mess.

[david]

Dealing rationally with an irrational person will not work. My first atty went through the motions and just wanted to settle things. When things didn't make sense she continued to try to settle. Eventually I realized she was settling and did not need to. My atty now is different but I also changed. I gave him what my goals were in writing. I gave him enough evidence and proof that it is easy to get to where I want to go. We just went to a mediation, which is required before you see a judge, and I sent him an email explaining how it was going to play out. The first 25 minutes or so went exactly as I predicted. The next 20 minutes went about 85% like I predicted. Nothing was settled. We walked out of the room and all he had to say was , "I see what you mean. This should be easy in front of the judge and I think we will get everything you are asking for." I didn't say a word at the conference. My atty handled it all and ex just set herself up repeatedly. The conference officer recommended that the judge would have to decide my proposal. I expected this because it would change the custody ratio and in Pa. the only one allowed top do that now is a judge. The state supreme court recently made a ruling saying so. It actually made parent coordinators no longer valid and ended all currently ordered. However the conference officer also recommended that everything ex requested be denied and dismissed. Ex made so many irrational statements in the conference. At one point my atty said 4 times, in different ways, that what she was saying made no sense. The conference officer then stepped in and said the same thing. I sat there and said nothing and made no facial expression at all. Give someone with BPD enough rope and they will use it. My ex fancies herself as a self taught lawyer and, of course, is smarter then her own atty.

[sanemom]

I am going to reiterate what everyone else has advised... . get an attorney skilled with these kinds of people.  Ask for stories.  Listen to how it was handled.

Our attorney recently found out that we have reason to file contempt charges against BPD mom.  He suggested we save those until the final hearing when the judge will be more ticked about them (he knows how our judge works) and so she will continue doing the behavior to make herself look worse.  If we filed them earlier, the judge would wag his finger at her and forget at final hearing.  If we save them, the judge will be mad at final hearing  and her bad behaviors are more likely to sway his opinion.

It's a game of chess... . got to find someone who can play wisely with you.

[livednlearned]

Yeah, the parenting coordinator tried to explain to her that a parent can't "kidnap" their own kids, and also that the orders don't say anything about needing to alert the other parent when traveling much less get their ok. So, now she is agree with the parenting coordinator and refusing to meet with him anymore.

Actually, parents can kidnap their own kids. But that's not happening in your situation.

The most important person in my case was the parenting coordinator. As a third-party professional, her testimony was key to me getting full custody of my son. She experienced the worst of N/BPDx's behavior, and the judge listened. Even if the pwBPD refuses to meet with the PC, continue to engage the PC when it makes sense. The courts created that position to lighten the load of high-conflict cases, and (at least in my state), the PCs have extension of judicial duties. Disrespecting the PC is no different than disrespecting the judge.