He raged and I left... first time I have done this - support welcome

[connect]

Hi guys,

Back again! Am on these boards a lot lately...

Hoping for some help on the new territory I have just embarked on.

He has previousley said in calm moments that when he rages the best thing for me to do is to leave immediately (as is the advice on this board) Up until now I have always stayed and either tried to talk him down or given him space in the house for a while. Sometimes it's worked but most often the rage has just esculated to the point of him starting to say (or actually saying) the r/s is over.

After his small push and space request on Sat morning I left him alone for the long weekend and did my own thing, although I struggled on the last day. Last night he called me and apologised and asked me to come over and stay the night. He spent the evening apologising and saying he knows it's him and he is accepting the fact that he must have mental health issues to act the way he does. He said it was a "blip" and he was sorry.

All fine this morning apart from him being sick when he woke up (happens when he is stressed) We arranged that I would come over and stay tonight. He has his first appt with psychiatrist tomorrow and I was hoping we could have a peaceful evening and a chat about things he may want to bring up at the meeting.

So I arrived and was greeted with the mother of all rages. Wow - it was out there! Shouting - hand clapping, repeating phrases over again, wide eyes, strange look, the whole works. The last one like this I saw was when he was dissociated and he dumped me on June 1st for 12 days.

He started talking about needing space again (forgetting he had apologised for this last night) He said I was clingy, his house doesnt feel like his own (we dont live together but I stay there a lot), he is worried about me but needs to look after his own mental health, no-one listens to him, he didnt get enough space at the weekend as he saw his mates (not my fault buddy), he has a hard job, he feels guilty about me having a bad time atm, etc etc.

It started going south. I did as you (and him) advise on the boards and said I would go but would be back in 2 hours. That inflamed him further "That's not space if you come back in two hours!" It started edging towards him looking at our r/s and how hard it was for him to cope with the pressure.

That's when I did the thing I have never done before. I remained calm and said "This conversation is not doing me or you any good. I am not angry - I will be okay but I am gong to leave now. You have the boys over tomorrow so I will call you on Thursday" And off I went.

I think this is about space but also about the fact we have had a period of closeness where I lived at his for three weeks and also he has the psychiatrist appt tomorrow which he also mentioned.

So looking for a bit of support here! I have never done this before - left as a rage was in full flow and heading south. It feels wierd like I abandoned him but I left to stop him saying anything worse and to protect myself from hearing more of it.

What happens now? Like I said i have never done this before... This is a good thing right?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[lostandunsure]

"This conversation is not doing me or you any good. I am not angry - I will be okay but I am gong to leave now. You have the boys over tomorrow so I will call you on Thursday"

This was great! You have my support! What you did was difficult. You kept calm in the face of extreme anger and you stuck to the boundaries that you set. None of that is easy.

I didn't notice, is he diagnosed with BPD? Is he being treated specifically for that?

You might want to start thinking about how you want to deal with things when you see him again. What are your expectations and what boundaries might you have?

[123Phoebe]

Hi Connect,

Yes, leaving was a good thing to do and you did it for the right reasons

All fine this morning apart from him being sick when he woke up (happens when he is stressed) We arranged that I would come over and stay tonight. He has his first appt with psychiatrist tomorrow and I was hoping we could have a peaceful evening and a chat about things he may want to bring up at the meeting.

This is just me, but think I'd hang back where bf's therapy is concerned, i.e., what he wants to bring up etc. In a perfect world we'd all discuss our issues openly and not be defensive if our flaws are pointed out, simply have nice peaceful chit chat over cheese and wine and resolve our differences... .

Our internal world is just that though, ours.  When we're struggling it's best to talk to a professional.  SO's don't make good therapists to their partners.  We need to keep hold of our own internal world, recognizing our own motivations, impulses and try to speak/act openly and honestly about ourselves, where we're coming from, while keeping true to our values.

You've spent the better part of the last 3 weeks with him at his place.  Are you still working on getting your own?  :)o not lose sight of yourself and your goals while managing what's going on with him.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Way to go, Connect! 

Take care of yourself during this time-out to make sure you don't dysregulate yourself.

[zaqsert]

Hi Connect,

You did great!  It's hard trying out new behaviors.  But as some wise people here point out, nothing changes without changes.  And you're making good changes.  Hang in there.  I hope it starts to feel easier over time.



zaqsert

[connect]

Thank you so much - so so appreciated!

Am still shell shocked - was in and out of his place in about 15 minutes - not the evening I had anticipated. Dont know what will happen now as have never done this before. His old pattern after a rage this big is to contact me on the day or the following day and end the r/s by text, but then I have never left mid rage before so dont know if that will change it... . what do you guys think?

I didn't notice, is he diagnosed with BPD? Is he being treated specifically for that?

You might want to start thinking about how you want to deal with things when you see him again. What are your expectations and what boundaries might you have?

Thanks Lostandunsure - Need the support here - feels like its going to be a very tough few days my end.

In answer to your question, no he is not diagnosed but shows very strong traits. His diagnosis is depression and anxiety so far. His antidepressants did help but he took himself off them in March and the behaviours got worse. I am still working on boundaries. My expectations are very poor without treatment of some kind tbh - it doesnt seem sustainable as it is. With treatment my expectations are much better as he is a lovely man when regulated and was loads better on the meds. Boundaries are my weak spot. Leaving in a rage looks like its going to be one though. Fingers crossed it doesnt backfire on me but everyone here advises it so I had to try it and my way wasnt really working!

You've spent the better part of the last 3 weeks with him at his place.  Are you still working on getting your own?  :)o not lose sight of yourself and your goals while managing what's going on with him.

Thank you as ever Pheobe   Means a lot! its so wierd doing something out of my comfort zone. Yes I am in negotiations with my ex on timeframes to move back into my old flat. Money is an issue affording it on my own so job hunting too. I know what you mean about the psychiatrist appt - think I am worried now he will manipulate or lie saying the psychiatrist thinks he should be single to work on his issues... oops am spiralling negative paniky thoughts... have to rein that in.

Scarlet - thank you too - have eaten a big dinner and am not going to stay up late mulling it over this time. Does me no good.

You did great!  It's hard trying out new behaviors.  But as some wise people here point out, nothing changes without changes.

Zaqsert - wise words - am hanging onto the fact that this is different behaviour from me.

Forgot to say earlier. He kept saying he thought he was going to die (he keeps throwing up as doesnt take his ulcer meds) This is the sort of thing that leads me to thoughts I have abandonded him  :'( But then this is also typical dysregulated talk too I suppose. I just see the scared boy in him - he really doesnt look after his stomach problems well in a preventative way. I am bound to question my different action though aren't I? This is my way into spiralling thoughts myself so trying not to dwell on it. Hope I can keep this mood up that I am in now. Am not too bad atm but I am so shocked its not sunk in yet. I was in and out of his house in 15 mins and was meant to be staying the night!

Will lie low for 2 days and make no contact. Any contact now will be bad I think. I did say on the way out I am on the end of a phone if he needs me. Tried to validate in the rage at first but it only worked briefly as he was too far gone so had to cut and run.

I cant do the limbo thing again for ages - I hope me leaving mid rage speeds this process up. Do you guys think it does speed up them regulating again in your experience? Some of you must have been like me before and stuck around for the rages and then changed to leaving. Did it make it better quicker?

[waverider]

Do you feel in a more positive and healthy place for you, from your own perspective?

You handled this well, not much more you could do.

I would not press him on how the appointment went, as this will come back to invading his space again. Not much gets achieved in one appointment so it is best you dont trigger an issue over it otherwise it will just become another reason to discontinue with it.

The thing is now to be consistent. You are choosing to do this because YOU believe it is the right thing for YOU, not because he told you to. Next time he may tell you to react differently. It is about protecting you not appeasing him. He will not be consistent in his requests. Consistent responses will reduce your stress levels considerably

[zaqsert]

Do you guys think it does speed up them regulating again in your experience? Some of you must have been like me before and stuck around for the rages and then changed to leaving. Did it make it better quicker?

In my experience with my uBPDw, walking away from rages first escalated into an extinction burst, but then did seem to shorten the rages, and perhaps even led them to happening less often.

It felt really hard the first few times.  I got great support from wonderful people here.  Over time my new behaviors felt more comfortable.  Today my T referred to this as building a new repertoire for myself.  After a focusing on others' needs for so much of my life so far, it's definitely new for me.  As I practice it, it feels more comfortable, and I can do it again.

Recently I tried something new too -- I ignored my wife's threat of leaving me and our D2.  That escalated quickly to raging threats of undermining me in front of D2.  I ignored that too.  Even closed the door to the room I was in.  A couple of hours later she was acting as though none of it had ever happened.

Also very important, it feels better not to have to put up with the verbal abuse after I remove myself from the situation.

[Chosen]

Hi connect,

I think you did really well!  It takes a lot of courage to leave.  There's so much unknowns out there! 

[Scout99]

Forgot to say earlier. He kept saying he thought he was going to die (he keeps throwing up as doesnt take his ulcer meds) This is the sort of thing that leads me to thoughts I have abandonded him  :'( But then this is also typical dysregulated talk too I suppose. I just see the scared boy in him - he really doesnt look after his stomach problems well in a preventative way. I am bound to question my different action though aren't I? This is my way into spiralling thoughts myself so trying not to dwell on it. Hope I can keep this mood up that I am in now. Am not too bad atm but I am so shocked its not sunk in yet. I was in and out of his house in 15 mins and was meant to be staying the night!

Will lie low for 2 days and make no contact. Any contact now will be bad I think. I did say on the way out I am on the end of a phone if he needs me. Tried to validate in the rage at first but it only worked briefly as he was too far gone so had to cut and run.

I cant do the limbo thing again for ages - I hope me leaving mid rage speeds this process up. Do you guys think it does speed up them regulating again in your experience? Some of you must have been like me before and stuck around for the rages and then changed to leaving. Did it make it better quicker?

I wish there was some kind of patented answer to that... . I really do! But the truth is they are individuals, and the severity of the BPD is different from person to person, and also changes over time, which makes things even more complicated... .

Your guy does however often react in the same fashion as my ex BPD guy... . And in his case his rages are always connected to unbearable and/or to him uncontrollable fear and anxiety. And that makes him push me away since he feels I become a part of the anxiety too at such times... . I'd say he would push anybody close to him away at such times, but since I haven't seen that, it is still a guess... .

He also reacts very physically to his anxiety. He often gets headaches, stomach pain, upset stomach, chest pains and nausea and even vomiting on occasion... . So all of that, and probably the ulsar too is anxiety driven, if you ask me... .

In my guy I could pretty much identify three different stages in his dysregulated phases.

1. The beginning. Anxiety levels are rising. The worry factor is high, could be about pretty much anything but usually the initial stressor would be some kind of change, like going back to work after vacation... . Or the opposite... .  in this stage he is vulnerable and often seeks out me for comfort and support. It is in this stage he can talk about his anxiety and his fears and how he wants to get rid of them and how tormented he feels about them. It is at this stage he is inclined to seek help and calls the doctors about all sorts of things... . He could be very sweet and loving to me at such times. Sending me sweet texts letting me know how important I was to him... . But it was still a part of him being dysregulated... .

2. Denial... . Anxiety level is high about to peak but suppressed with everything he has got! Irritations can be felt like an ever present undercurrent and he can get very snappy.

Focus is moved from him and his fears to external factors. Chest pains is suddenly due to a lingering cold that potentially could kill him if he doesn't take it seriously, (this is a building block for panic attacks... . ). He will still seek out a doctors appointment. but the defenses are up, so there is no chance in h*ll he will be talking to the doctors about his fears... . solely about his physical symptoms... . Any remark about anxiety or fear coming from me will be dismissed. And so will our relationship... . These are the times when he would suddenly shift our r/s into undefined friendship territory... . Regardless of what the anxiety or symptoms were about! My guess is this is a time for flight, not fight. And he is willing to do anything, to sacrifice anything to get relief from the conflicting emotions in his mind... .

It is in times like these you could get very conflicting responses from him. He could on one hand say things like: I am really only seeing the doctor about my cold, the chest pains are gone now but I think they are connected to the cold, so I really want to get rid of the cold... .

And then later while attempting to sabotage us seeing each other; if we can't meet just as friends this time, then I don't want us to meet at all - I don't want anymore anxiety than I already have!  

Needless to say, at this stage there is no point whatsoever to talk to him about anything important... . Especially not discussing anything... .

3. Rage or loosing control... . This has hardly ever happened with my guy... . He usually gets caught up in the anxiety suppression stage and when the anxiety wears off he goes into a more cautious state for a while before he sort of began to miss me, or the vulnerability called for some TLC... .

But I have seen it a couple of times... . Usually when I have gone against my better judgement and engaged in a discussion about something while he is in level 2... . Which he will interpret as a major row or argument. Then he very suddenly looses control over himself completely and just rages and can say pretty much anything, often hurtful, and if on the phone, hang up on me in total anger. To then texting minutes later stuff like: please call... .

If I do he can still be out of control and angry, but I can tell he is now struggling to regain balance and at the same time terrified I will abandon him now... . It is almost like a man turning into a werewolf being afraid he is not going to recognize his loved one, while being the beast and kill her... . There is a whole lot of crazy going on in this stage... .

Usually he will get back into the vulnerable stage once the rage subsides. And used to be very sweet again in the aftermath... .

But, and this is a big BUT! I see clearer now that the normal times are really quite rare, and usually what our r/s was built around was his stage one behavior... . Then he needed me, and therefore made me feel loved and needed by him. In the normal times things were great, but I believe in our case anyway the BPD had gone untreated for so long and that had made him develop all these other symptoms of severe anxiety and panic and he had no control over that, so it is allowed to take him over more and more... .

And in the second stage I become the enemy... . Or at least a part of his life he is willing to sacrifice to rid himself (temporarily) of the anxiety and that is a pretty painful place to be put in as a partner... . Even when we know what it is about... .

Actually I hated this stage the most, since there is really no way to talk to him then, he is so far away from reality... .

The rage was easier to handle... . For me at least. Walk away or let him hang up and then wait for his regret to set in... . Once you get to that stage there will at least be some kind of release, and that changes things usually to the better once the rage subsides... . (Temporarily at least... . )

My guess with your guy is he is frantic about his doctors appointment, and about what will happens to him now, once he has chosen to cross this bridge... . Should he run away from it all or stay the course, how will it affect him? Will they put him in a straight jacket and declare him crazy? Or will he get tons of pills that has tons of side effects? I can't even imagine how it must feel to be a dysregulated BPD and going through a mental health evaluation... . Must be pretty terrifying... .

I think you have done exactly the right thing! You have kept your boundary, which to him gives you respect. He has to walk through this whole psych evaluation by himself. And there ain't much you can do to help him with that. Nothing to be honest... .

If he will go silent with you it will be because he is putting himself in a stage 2 mood... . Where he wants to run away from the knowledge coming from the psych evaluation... . It has nothing to do with you, or even about the feelings he has for you. But being with you or with anything that triggers intimacy in him will remind him constantly when trying to suppress, that there are things in need of suppressing... . He is too much enmeshed in himself then to be able to be close to anybody else... . And all we all can do in those situations is sit back an wait... . Which is hard... . Or choose to walk away, to let go... . We can't really do anything else, since we are not their therapist or healer... . We are "just" the love interest... . And the anxiety is so all consuming that not even that is enough at these times... .

My guess is however if your guy is indeed in some ways like my ex... . That he will get relieved after the doctors appointment, and then he will reach out to you. He will be in the vulnerable stage then, so he will be looking for plenty of reassurance. But if lucky the anxiety has gone down and will stay down for a bit... . But you should stick to what you have said, so if you don't hear anything today, stay calm and don't attempt to seek contact until you have said you would. And perhaps even wait a bit longer... . If you can!

My heart goes out to you! Because I know exactly how you feel, and it is hard!    

Best Wishes

Scout99

[Whichwayisup]

Thankyou for such an eloquent and detailed response to his issue Scout - it hit home with me on so many levels and has provided much greater clarity on the manifestation of the illness. I think I shall be refering to it a lot in future!

Whichwayisup

[blurry]

 I'm kinda right here with you on leaving for the first time, been 3 weeks now since I initiated the split but during this time I have to admit I tried getting her to come back in various ways, nontheless she went full blown rage that day and hasn't stopped yet. But ultimately I think she knows I mean business now because I initiated, she could of stopped it, what put us both in very precarious positions in every way. Usually its just me more or less having my life turned upside down but now she got a taste of her own medicine, from her own choices. Next I need the willpower to go full NC, to get her to stop raging through text and to get the clock ticking till she attemps to reconcile. Told her I want to see 6 months documented therapy, before I even consider seeing her ever again. I doubt she will, be easier to keep me painted black and find a new codependant guy. Hope I can follow through.

You're not alone out there is I guess what I'm saying.

[Seashells]

 

What happens now? Like I said i have never done this before... This is a good thing right?

I think it's a good thing.   

I think it will be a better thing for your own self care and perhaps even the relationship when you can do it for yourself without being concerned about his reaction or the outcome.  Unfortunately that often seems to come down to having been pushed so far you don't feel there is much other choice than saying "enough is enough" when you've had all you can take and/or feel if you don't you'll completely lose yourself and drown along with them in the chaos.  At least that has been my experience.

[connect]

Hello guys,

Thank you a million for your replies. And Scout - wow that message really described the undescribable! Will also be referring to it in the future a lot.  

Well here's my update. Am writing this from my bf's house... . I know - who'd have thought it? All I can say is that this new way of dealing with a rage really really helped   I was nervous to do it but tried to use my wise mind for a change and listen to you lovely guys here and do something that felt really alien to me. It felt so uncomfortable but I knew that you guys said it was the best way to handle it. So thanks  

I made no contact since the rage yesterday and then late afternoon today he called me (unusual in itself as I normally am the one who calls the most) He acted as though it had never happened! He said he'd had a bad day and was feeling low and talked to me about it. As the call progressed he cheered up. At the end of the call he said that it was good talking to me and did I want to come over tonight on his boys night in.

Goodness! When I think back to how a large rage usually pans out - the difference is astonishing! Normally I would stay and try to validate or give him space but stay in the house. That has resulted in such escalation sometimes that I have been dumped twice in similar circumstances. It's all starting to make a bit of sense to me now. I felt better as I didnt have to listen to it. He didnt have a chance to lay more blame on me. I also felt better about myself that I left when it happened - stronger. This has been a new behaviour I tried that I have liked. Am speachless that it worked so well all round. Wow  

As for the appt, he claims he got the date wrong and its on the 11th - I suspect he changed the appt but he says he is still going. Will try to let go of inteferring with that.

Still a bit delicate here so am keeping calm. Too early to talk about it with him (and the boys are here) but am very pleased. Fingers crossed that it can stay calm for a bit and the dysregulation subsides.

Thanks a million  

[zaqsert]

Glad to hear, Connect!  Congrats!   

[LynnieRe]

you did awesome. 

[eyvindr]

Good work, connect! -- it's a wonderful feeling when you try something new, for your own sake as well as your partner's, and it has a positive outcome! I hope there will be more to come.

And I echo your words of gratitude to Scout -- wow. Thank you SO much for sharing that, for taking the time to write it out so clearly. So much insight and strength. 

[connect]

Hi guys and thanks as ever 

An update on this rage situation from that day. He and I have been getting along quite nicely since this event so I had a chat with him about it. I think, however that I may have said something "wrong" so to speak... .

He explained about the bad day he had had on the day of this rage and how it had made him angry and frustrated. I said that from my point of view it was best to leave. I did tell him that it felt uncomfortable for me to do this but I did it for two reasons

1) He had asked me to do this previously on calm discussions on what to do in the event of a rage

2) I didnt enjoy the rage and left for my own benefit.

I am concerned that me mentioning one of the reasons I left that day was because he had asked me to invalidates my own reasons for going and takes away some of the power that I maintained over the situation. Could this in fact have made me less worthy of respect in his eyes? respect is what I want from him. I said this to show him that he was "heard" and to validate his feelings too as he says no-one listens to him.

On another note - a lot of his rages are due to him wanting "space" for a few days. When I leave if the rage is about "space" am I just rewarding him for his behaviour?

And lastly - he told me that after I left on that day he cried (he has never admitted crying to me before) I asked why he cried and he didnt seem to know - frustration in general perhaps he thought... . Crying is better than raging though and a different release... .

[Scout99]

Hi!

Nice to get a bit of word from ya! And glad things are still well!

About your concerns I think you did well! First of all if we all the time feel that we need to say or do the right things, then that too very easily becomes another way of walking on eggshells... .

So you need to feel ok with saying what is on your mind, whenever you feel and want to!

Then we can always learn how to get better and better at how we say things. But then again, not at the expense of us otherwise getting silent... . If we don't know the best way to say something we want to say, then say it anyway if you want to!

In this case I think you validated him by showing both in action and with words that you have heard his request, and chose to act on it. Also because you don't want to be in the crossfire of his raging... . (upholding your boundary). What more could be asked of that situation? I think you did good!

Now when you write you validate an unwanted behavior... . I don't really see it that way... . Maybe it actually is a good behavior on his part, to acknowledge when he needs a time out and space to deal with his conflicting emotions... . ?

After all there is nothing you can ever do to "help" him in such situations... . He must learn how to self soothe, all by himself... . And hopefully he will learn tools for it in his future treatment... . But them too, will not be about you... .

This is one of the hardest things I believe in living with a pw BPD... . Learning and accepting that there are parts of them that we cannot share with them completely! And that we sometimes need to step back, when they need space, and we at the same time feel overwhelming urges to help... . Since we cannot help... . Or the only way we can truly help is by stepping away and let them struggle... . It is hard, there is no doubt about it... .

I this case, actually accommodating his wish, gave you a bit of a reward... . He dared to open up a little bit more to you and dared to show you part of his vulnerability... . That is validating you! So see that as a bit of a victory!  

Best Wishes and

Scout99

[MaybeSo]

Often we seek respect from a person, as in "give me respect", or  "I deserve respect", but fail to respect ourselves.

Staying while a person rages at you shows a lack of self care. Leaving indicates you respect yourself enough to attend to your own personal needs for safety and well being. That is respecting yourself.

It also allows an opportunity for a person who is outside themselves with dysregulated emotions, to deal with their own emotional storm. There is a degree of respect afforded that person in validating their request (that you leave) and it also conveys the idea that they need some space when they are that raw, to be alone and weather the storm; and that they can (are capable) and should learn to self regulate without you. And without using a loved one as an emotional vomitorium, which is actually demoralizing, hurtful, and disrespectful for you both.

[Grey Kitty]

  Great job on boundary enforcement and protecting yourself.

I'd also say that this sort of boundary enforcement doesn't need reasons or justifications. All it takes is sticking to your decision not to be raged at. When you are back together you don't have to say much about why you won't be raged at either... .

In this stuff, actions matter and actions work.

Great job, especially since it was a stretch for you!