pwBPD as they were growing up...

[SadWifeofBPD]

H has been very talkative recently about his childhood - more than he's ever been before.

H said that his older brother (who has anxiety issues, but not BPD) is very good with fixing things, and is very good with money management, and is very good with knowing the right order of doing things.

H is not logical and often wants to do things in the most illogical sequences.  Therefore his brother was constantly pointing out the silliness of how H would go about doing things.  Very likely, this sort of criticism was happening constantly at school, in the neighborhood and in the family.  The built-up anger must have been constant.

So now, whenever I or someone else points out "the better way" to do something, he flips out. 

Very likely, when it happens now (without any mentioning of "you're stupid for doing this", H is likely over-reacting because he's remembering the embarrassment of being told he was stupid for doing something illogically as a child or teen. 

For instance (and this is just a minor one off the top of my head), if H has several errands to run on the south side of town (about 15 miles away), he won't do all of them in one day.  No, he'll make 5 trips there - wasting time, wasting gas.  He doesn't do this because of anxiety, he does it because it doesn't dawn on him to do at least 2-3 of the items in one trip.   

but if I gently point out that he should try to do as many errands as he can while in the same area of town, he feels insulted.


Or, if he wants to buy a certain unusual item, he doesn't call ahead to see if a store carries it.   No, he'll waste all weekend going from store to store and then getting very upset when he can't find it.  There are many, many, many other (worse) examples I could provide.  I think this all has to do with poor executive function?


I don't know if this is typical of pwBPD, but I can see where it might be.  Because of how they were probably teased about their illogical ways while growing up, that may explain why they're ultra-sensitive now when no one is teasing them.

[Washisheart]

My uBPDfiance has great executive function. He makes total sense when it comes to errands, taking care of responsibilities, promptness.

His issue is major life decisions like moving from state to state or woman to woman. His brother also "preaches" to him. So he avoids his brother most of the time. And now even if I try to talk to him about certain things, he puts me in the preacher category with his brother and doesn't want to deal with me

[maxsterling]

His reaction is similar to what I have experienced in dealing with pwBPD - they do not like people telling them what to do or how to live, are paranoid of people judging them, do not like authority, bosses, or rules, and do not like it if people speak to them like a "parent".  My experience comes from two BPD girlfriends (one was probably also NPD and undiagnosed) and an undiagnosed BPD/NPD brother in law, but all are pretty much the same in this regard. 

I don't think the his illogical nature has anything to do with BPD.  Some of what you describe is the typical "male stereotype" (not asking for directions, etc)

[SadWifeofBPD]

have experienced in dealing with pwBPD - they do not like people telling them what to do or how to live, are paranoid of people judging them, do not like authority, bosses, or rules, and do not like it if people speak to them like a "parent". 

I think that many pwBPD have had life-long experiences of people "looking over their shoulders" and critiquing the weird ways that that they do things.  So, they think everyone is "judging them" when in fact, many times we are.  Many pwBPD can hardly let a day go by without them doing at least a couple things that cause others' eyebrows to raise and a few comments to come forward.

When I was worried when my H was staying with relatives while we were separated (and he was bad-mouthing me), my son reassured me that ":)ad can't go even a few hours without doing/saying something that others are going to think is annoying or crazy.  They're soon going to realize what they're dealing with."  And, my son was right.  Soon, his relatives were angry at him for delaying their dinner hour by selfish dawdling, making messes in the kitchen, doing no chores (not even his own laundry), wasting resources, turning the A/C thermostat down to low numbers, locking his keys in the car 3 times in one week and they had to rescue him, getting in constant political arguments with the "Lady of the House" (how rude when you're a guest!), and frequently doing things in a completely illogical manner. 

Anyway, my point is that after listening to my H describe his childhood and how his older brother was constantly "correcting him", it made me realize that many pwBPD probably faced a similar fate while growing up.  Of course, others were rightfully correcting them and these people weren't "off the mark", but for a pwBPD, they may not see that their ways are illogical so they feel "picked on".  Or, if they do realize that their way wasn't the best way, they're shamed by the realization. 

[nevaeh]

I knew very early in our relationship that H's childhood was not good.  He would talk on the phone with his mother for 1-2 hours at a time, and sometimes during those conversations they would yell and scream at each other and he would call her horrible names... . $itch, stupid @unt, you name it... . I should have seen that as a HUGE red flag at the time!  However, the way he described his upbringing made me think that his mom was the problem and had likely been a mean and abusive mother.  Still, that didn't really explain to me why, then, he would even want to talk to her at all, but I got along great with my parents so I figured I just didn't understand how dysfunctional families "worked".  He was 18 and I was 19 at this time.

Over the years that we dated and eventually married, I did see his mom rage over things and saw her temper first hand.  One year we were at their house on Christmas day and she started yelling at my H because there was a dent in the closet door and she blamed him for it.  They stood in the middle of the room screaming at each other (he had a valid point that he hadn't lived there for over 10 years so why does she automatically think HE did it?) and we eventually packed up our infant daughter and all of our stuff and left in the middle of the Christmas celebration.

I have picked up little clues over the 23 years we have been together as to how his life was growing up.  My observations are:

• H was criticized a lot.  He grew up feeling unworthy.



• His mom is a bitter woman. She told me about how my FIL was "in charge" of everything... . money, kids, etc. She was a SAHM for many years so had even more control over her. She complained about FIL to me A LOT while H and I were dating and early into our marriage.  Once I started seeing H's personality/BPD traits come out, I started to really resent MIL for how she raised H... . thinking that it was largely her fault for bringing her son up in an abusive home.  I stopped wanting to talk to my MIL because I felt like she made him be the way he was.



• FIL passed away about 5 years ago. I have learned since his passing that he raged like my H does. To hear him described he was just like H... . always nice and helpful and funny around everyone in the community where he was well liked.  Always willing to help people out in the middle of the night with house problems, etc.  But he would rage at the kids/family.  I also realized that H never talked to his dad on the phone until his dad became sick with cancer and then they seemed to have more ability to talk on the phone.  I believe that FIL had BPD and that H grew up "hating" his dad and his mom was somehow the only person he "had" who he could go to and they were close in some strange way, but because she was also dysfunctional he didn't really have a positive role model at all during his childhood.



• H has told me that he was "bullied" as a child.  He was small and their family didn't have a lot of money.  They grew up in a very small town and he graduated in a HS class of 19, so there weren't a lot of options for friends either.  I know H grew up feeling "less than" and it has always been important to him to have the appearance of being successful, both with his career and his family.  It is important to him to have the appearance of a perfect life.  Nice house, smart/athletic kids, successful career, wife with a successful career, nice cars, etc.  It's all superficial, but necessary for him.  



• H's sister also has some serious mental issues.  I would imagine she deals with BPD as well. Her daughter has some pretty serious mental issues - she really struggles in school and has serious anxiety (she pulls out her hair/eyelashes/eyebrows) and has begged one of my H's other brothers to let her come live with him and his wife because home is a miserable place for her.  SIL's husband is an alcoholic and has made comments about SIL's rage and that he doesn't know how to handle it, particularly since he is the man in the relationship and can't exactly fight back.  I think he wants to leave her but doesn't want to leave their D15 with SIL.  Their D15 has the maturity of a 10-year old.  SIL exhibits what I think is something like Munchausen by proxy and is always "bragging" about her D15's ailments and all of the medications she takes.  It's like she has a need to talk about how well she takes care of their D15 but it's just really weird to me.



• H's older brother has been married 3 times and divorced 2 times (currently married).  He has 5 children by these women.  I know he has rage issues as well and that his 2nd wife in particular was scared of him and wouldn't allow him any contact  with their son after they divorced.  I suspect he was abusive, or if he raged like my H does, she just was "more" scared by it than I am.

I have no doubt that the way H is now is a direct result of his upbringing.  I can't get him to talk about what happened to him as a child... . whether his parents were abusive, etc.  But he does treat our S12 like I believe he was treated as a child.  Frequently insulting him, telling him he is a slacker and a loser, getting mad for small indiscretions such as not throwing his gum wrappers away or leaving his socks laying on the floor, or for antagonizing our other S8.  It's actually quite sad to watch happen, because I then start to imagine/see how H lived his younger years and it breaks my heart to know that he went through that.  Those are the times when, as much as I hate him for being that way to our son, I also understand that he "can't help it".  

My H is like others on here... . always ready to critique and/or criticize how others are doing things, but does not handle criticism directed at himself well AT ALL.  He can "jokingly" say things about people that are actually an insult but if you try to do it back to him he gets PISSED.  He gets into political arguments with others and can get brutal when not agreed with.  He HATES it if he is in the beginning/middle of a rage and I try to "talk him down"... . he just gets more pissed and says that I'm being patronizing.  I suppose I probably do sound like a mother when I am talking to him but he acting like a child at that point, I suppose.  

My H, however, IS intelligent and organized and logical (he's an engineer as well as a Lt Col in the military).  He has no patience for people who aren't exactly like him and who don't have the abundance of common sense like he does, including me... . I have no common sense and am not nearly as smart as him (despite the fact that I am the CFO of a $60M/year operation and am clearly capable of being independent and taking care of myself and our kids during the many times he has been deployed for military duty).  

H has a very hard time making decisions about anything.  He will continually say he needs to do something... . over and over and over... . like he has never thought of it before. And heaven forbid that I remind him that he mentioned that before because if I do he will likely rage at me for bringing it up.  

[briefcase]

I think most people, BPD or not, would not like to be constantly corrected, or told how to live their life.  And, people with BPD do especially poorly with this kind of thing, or any other invalidation.  

Current threories are that BPD is a combination of nature and nurture - many of our BPD partners probably were raised in an invalidating environment.  I know my wife was.  But, there is likely a predisposition to this as well.    

[SadWifeofBPD]

I think most people, BPD or not, would not like to be constantly corrected

I completely agree!  But, generally speaking, a NON isnt' likely doing multiple things wrong every day that would bring on these constant corrections.  A Non, learns as he goes.  A Non watches and learns. 

[Cipher13]

But, generally speaking, a NON isnt' likely doing multiple things wrong every day that would bring on these constant corrections.  A Non, learns as he goes

i agree with this 100%... . Well now I do it took years to figure out that maybe it isn't really my fault she is angry all the time and that I make her miserable.

[briefcase]

There are many intelligent, capable and efficient people with BPD, and many others who are not. I do think the black and white thinking can get in the way of self-improvement (of any kind) with people who have BPD.  Admitting errors and areas that need work can trigger that all or nothing mindset - If I'm no good at doing XYZ, I am must not be good at anything and I'm a bad person.  So, it's easier to avoid the problems (and thus not learn from them).

I don't like to delve too deeply into the mind of a person with BPD though.  It's a foreign land with a foreign language and no translater.  Best to stick with what we do know, and can control - ourselves.   

[eyvindr]

The highlighted stuff aggravates me, too:

His reaction is similar to what I have experienced in dealing with pwBPD - they do not like people telling them what to do or how to live, are paranoid of people judging them, do not like authority, bosses, or rules, and do not like it if people speak to them like a "parent"... .

That said, I don't generally give a flying rat's ass what people think of me, I tolerate authority and rules -- and I don't hesitate to ask for directions!

[maxsterling]

The highlighted stuff aggravates me, too:


That said, I don't generally give a flying rat's ass what people think of me, I tolerate authority and rules -- and I don't hesitate to ask for directions!

That's exactly it. None of us likes people to tell us how to live our lives, and therefore I don't like to tell others how to live their lives because I know how it feels.  But when people do it to me, I get annoyed, blow it off, or deal with it rather than take it out on others. When I have dealt with pwBPD, they tend to respond by passing the anger and frustration on to others. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

None of us likes people to tell us how to live our lives, and therefore I don't like to tell others how to live their lives because I know how it feels

Right, but I'm not talking about that so much. I'm not talking about situations where people are saying:  You should take this job, or you should major in this subject, or you should buy this car, or you should invest your money this way, etc.    It's much lighter situation.

When friends and siblings are together, they'll rib/tease each other over the littlest things.  It's all part of the give and take in friendships and families.  It's not "telling each other how to live their lives." 

The point is that now that I understand that H was likely teased by others, and he didn't understand that his ways of doing things made hin especially vulnerable and a target. 

Now that I understand that, I'm more careful about "choosing my battles". 

[Washisheart]

The arguing over the dent reminded me of four years ago we drove seven hours to have Thanksgiving with his family. He hasn't been to that part of the country for a few years. The morning after we got up and heated up some leftovers then headed to his uncle's. his mom called him pissed that we ate her SIL's macaroni. The containers weren't labeled and it wasn't intentional. He tried calmly to tell her that. She went on so bad over this macaroni we left that day. He was so upset. To drive HOURS to spend thanksgiving with his family only to be screamed at over leftovers. To make it worse, he didn't even eat it, I did!

So yes while I see raging is a learned behavior, I repeatedly tell him we don't have to be the parents our parents were. I don't want my daughter to grow up like EITHER of us did honestly.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Admitting errors and areas that need work can trigger that all or nothing mindset - If I'm no good at doing XYZ, I am must not be good at anything and I'm a bad person.  So, it's easier to avoid the problems (and thus not learn from them).

I agree. 

[GreenMango]

Really if the disorganized actions aren't hurting, like making two trips, than who cares?  He's outta your hair for the day doing his thing, it may be different than you do it but it one of those things. 

Now that I understand that, I'm more careful about "choosing my battles".

Great way to look at it.  Somethings things don't matter - save that energy for the stuff that does.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Really if the disorganized actions aren't hurting, like making two trips, than who cares?  He's outta your hair for the day doing his thing, it may be different than you do it but it one of those things. 

Well, it's not that simple.  He expects me to go with him.  And, it's a waste of gasoline to make multiple trips downtown.

But, really that example is just a tiny one.  My point was that they make themselves constantly vulnerable to others' comments because they so frequently do things in an illogical fashion.  If they've been doing this their whole lives then it's no wonder why they're hyper-sensitive to any constructive advice. 

Yesterday I bought a rotisserie chicken (cooked) and a pkg of fresh stuffed ravioli.  they were sitting next to each other in the fridge.  I mentioned to H that the chicken was for quick bites if he was hungry. This morning I noticed the empty pkg of ravioli in the trash.  During the night, H had eaten the ravioli (uncooked!).  that was supposed to be for dinner tonight.  The COOKED chicken that was next to it was untouched.  I didn't say anything, but it's odd things like that that will cause others to say something like, "hey, why would you eat a pkg of raw ravioli when there was a cooked chicken next to it that I said was for snacking?"

Or when there's a small spill, he'll grab 20 sheets of paper towels to wipe it up, when clearly one sheet would be plenty.  (this also annoyed the relatives that he was staying at... . they repeatedly corrected him, as I have for 30 years).  He also broke a couple of things at their home because he's rarely ever careful with nice things (another thing I've often tried to warn him about).

Again, my point is now I understand that his whole life has been a series of people commenting on how he does things.  Knowing this has helped put things into perspective.

[GreenMango]

It's good to have that understanding as why he may do and feel the way he does.  Nobody likes to be harped on like that.  Perspective really and empathy.

As for the ravioli - seriously thats funny - raw did he get sick?  did he even notice it was raw? 

Yes SW there's a lot of waste - papertowels and gas.  He works hard right?  He makes a good living. He's wasteful.  Is this going to break the bank and ruin your retirement?  Irritating definitely but what's the worst that comes from letting those things go.

Dont go with him on the second trips.  You can get him out of your hair.

I still like your pick your battles strategy.  It's smart.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Is this going to break the bank and ruin your retirement?  Irritating

Yes, his crazy ways are breaking the bank and are hurting retirement.  That's become a HUGE issue because he wants to retire in the next few months but he's hurt us so much financially with his wasteful ways and silly notions that we can't afford him to retire for a very long time... . but he won't wait. 

Without my knowledge, he has been covering up his wasteful ways by quietly withdrawing money from retirement accts over the years.  There are just so many, many, many things I could list that would demonstrate how he's financially hurt us over the last 30 years.  It's the impulsiveness and the refusal to consider financial impact. 

If he retires anyway, we'll really be in deep do-do because his Rx's and everything else he considers "necessities" will cost us more than his retirement income.   Two days ago he spent $1000 on a Rx that he doesn't need, but "wants" because it will help him grow more muscles when he works out.  Ugh!  He won't admit that's why he uses that Rx, but it's true.  he has NPD along with BPD, which is why he blows money on cosmetic type stuff... . Botox, etc.  He's vain and ridiculous.  I expect that he'll get hair plugs soon since he's losing his hair a bit. 

Right now, he earns a high income, but he's spending EVERY penny.  He can't even cover MY basic expenses.  I needed to put gas in my car and he told me to only put a small amount in because he won't get paid til Friday.  This is someone who earns over $160k per year.  This is nuts.  He won't discuss a budget.  He won't cut back.  Even if he agrees to "cut back", when he's been caught indulging, he claims it's a one time thing... . which it's not. 

[eyvindr]

OMG, the WASTE! I thought I was the only one who dealt with that! Guess I assumed part of my pwBPD's comorbidity was just OCD stuff.

Thought it was funny, at first -- and joked about it, in good fun! When she started spending nights at my house, I'd do the usual tidying up beforehand, including making sure there was enough TP in the bathroom. Began to wonder how I'd go from a full roll in the morning, to being out that same evening. Turned out the ex wouldn't *touch* any shared surfaces directly -- so, whenever she'd go to wash her hands, she'd tear off a few feet of toilet paper to turn on and off the faucet for washing her hands. In the kitchen, it was paper towels -- some tiny spill always required 3-4 sheets. She never took one napkin -- always a handful. At her house, she generally used paper plates, so she could just pitch them and avoid having to wash dishes -- but she always used 2-3 at a time! Never used a toothbrush more than ONE time! Wouldn't drink water from the faucet (even though we live in a part of the US where the tap water is always rated as excellent), so always was opening bottles of water -- which she'd then take 2-3 sips of, forget about for 10 mins, and then POUR out because it had been "sitting out"! Wouldn't eat anything off her own D6's plate, and if the little girl so much as sneezed, she'd throw out all the food. Hardly ever cooked, out of a fear of raw meat -- actually was a vegan for years before she had her daughter, according to her... . realized over time that very likely she wasn't so much a vegan as that she'd found a really convenient excuse to not cook! So, bought most of her meals, and her daughter's, prepared -- NEVER ate leftovers. I could go on and on... .

Yes, GreenMango -- I agree with letting the small things go. When I'd try to discuss these things with my ex, she'd get all rattled, and say, "oh, everyone has their quirks -- come on, you do too! -- don't sweat the small stuff!" And I agree. But, when the small stuff seems to be just about EVERYTHING -- and the person "not sweating it" is also NOT PAYING FOR IT, then it's a different story! She used her D6 as leverage to basically mooch off her parents -- her mother for childcare, and her father for financial assistance. He told me himself that he spent close to $500 a month on water, paper towels and toothbrushes alone! I don't know why he did it -- except that, if he refused, he'd be told that he couldn't see his granddaughter. But she would push, push, push me about why I was hesitant to move in together. And would REGULARLY ask me questions like, "So, if something were to happen, like, if I lost my job, you'd make sure me and D6 had a place to live, wouldn't you? I mean, you'd take care of us, right?"

Any time I expressed concerns, or even attempted to make productive suggestions like, "Hey -- I'll always help you as much as I can. Why don't we sit down and look at your expenses, and come up with a budget?" -- she'd freak out, cry, accuse me of overstepping my boundaries -- "We aren't married. I don't have a ring on my finger. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, my finances are none of your business, and I would appreciate you not bringing them up again."

Ugh. Like that kind of response is going to get you any closer to your stated goal... .  

[SadWifeofBPD]

But, when the small stuff seems to be just about EVERYTHING

Very true.  For H, it's not OCD, it's just impulsiveness.  He'll buy energy drinks at the gas station at 3 times the price.  It would be fine if he did that once in awhile, but he does it all the time.  When I try to buy "in bulk" at a discount, he'll mow thru all of them in a couple of days!  So, that wipes out the savings.  HIs relatives noticed this too with bottled water.  They bought a large case and H went thru it in a day. 

I think we need a thread about how to rein in their spending habits in a productive way.  Maybe some here have had success with a particular approach.

H wants to buy another property, and I'm hoping THIS would be my chance to force him to make a budget.