If the BPD #1 fear is you leaving how can you go about that?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I read an interview with a Pyscologist that mentioned the #1 fear of BPD is fear the spuce will leave them. (Unconsioulsy its what they want.)  And to be careful in trying to do this or say you want to leave... . If my wife on several occations this last month along not to mention over the past 12 years has said I am doen we should just end this and I never took the bait (I seriously want to leave) how would it go if I finally said... . ok lets split up.

What has been other experiences with the original break up and divorce? What was that situation like? I mean after all its finally giving into there greatest fear.

[Cipher13]

I read an interview with a Pyscologist that mentioned the #1 fear of BPD is fear the spuce will leave them. (Unconsioulsy its what they want.)  And to be careful in trying to do this or say you want to leave... . If my wife on several occations this last month along not to mention over the past 12 years has said I am doen we should just end this and I never took the bait (I seriously want to leave) how would it go if I finally said... . ok lets split up.

What has been other experiences with the original break up and divorce? What was that situation like? I mean after all its finally giving into there greatest fear.

[Surnia]

Hi Cipher

I hear you, sounds like there is some Obligation here.

Even if we are empathetic and friendly humans, sometimes we cannot live our life without hurting somebody or let them face a big fear... .

Perhaps you may look at this workshop: Workshop - US: What it means to be in the “FOG”.

I hope this helps a little bit.

[Clearmind]

I would have to agree with Surnia. I think Cipher13 we need to decide for ourselves what is best and this decision comes in time.

I understand the need to not want to hurt them - the guilt part of "FOG".

Us leaving them is a self fulfilling prophecy for them - a way to guilt you and it seems to be working. Does your partner want out? Who knows. If they are BPD then its possible they not only fear abandonment they also fear intimacy and engulfment.

What do you ultimately want to do?

[Cipher13]

What do you ultimately want to do?

I thought I wanted out. I think in a way I still do.

I made a large mess of things last night. I don't know if it was something she manipulated or its really is something I am having a problem with.  We had a conversation where I mentioned soemthig a co-worker said to me about if I was going to be around this weekend to come over to his property. I  told my wife I said to him I had some thing planned Saturday but not sure what i have going the rest of the weekend.  She was upset becasue I shoul dhave said I can't because I don't think I am able to hunt this year... I didn't under stand I said I couldn't go this weekend but didn't mention that I couldn't at all and that I was an idiot becasue I didn't.  So i repeated back and said what I thougth was the same thing adding he asked about the follow week after work and I told him I was busy... She said you never mentioned that thats important.


To kkep this shprt and less confusing I said what I figured was the same thing but used different words. My understand was the same. Her understand ing was not.  I apparentyl do this alot. Some how this spiraled into that I change my stories when I am talking to her. She does say that to me alot. So this took a huge turn to when now I am questioning if I have a mental problem where I think I am staying on topic but just change the wording around and she says I am changing the meaning around. I don't see it that way but she convinsed me  with example I don't think I can refuse becasue she has made it so I can't even trust my own thoughts. 

That is currently the scariest thing I have ever felt. I am now afraid  that I can no trust my own thoughts and words that my original intentions are coming out of my mouth twisted into something else and I don't even realize it? Is that possible?   If thats true how can I communicate with her. IF its something turned around on me and she created this how can I communicate with her. She has been saying she can not trust what I say and now there is soem sort of proof that what I say changes without me even knowing. What the heck?  This is so messing with my mind right now I feel sick.

[Clearmind]

Neither of you felt understood probably for different reasons.

It sounds to me like the conversation went in circles - which is confusing. Instead of the conversation coming to a common understanding it became about making you wrong. Circular arguments are something you want to put a stop to because you both become invalidated and you don't trust yourself.

You need to call Time Out Cipher - How to stop circular arguments. I think she got a little dysregulated and fearing abandonment with your hunting plans.

Be mindful of staying present and not delving into another persons reality - remind yourself that you are an independent person - not part of her.

When you regroup use SET - have you heard of the SET communication tool?

[Cipher13]

Yes I have heard of SET. I have been trying to use all the tools as best I can.  I know I was frustrated last night and got overwhelmed in my feelings. We did end up both calming down and were able to identify what happened and why.

You mentioned needing to call a time out. So true. We both came to that conclusion aslo. We need to find a way to realize a time out is required so that we can both disengage form the reactions of eachother and get to the real meat of the arguement instead of feeding off the trigger words.

I will read that articel thank you for point it out.

[Cipher13]

As it turns out I have read this before... But going to again. Thanks

[SadWifeofBPD]

It sounds like she's mad that you didn't put a finality to the hunting question.  Instead of saying that you're never going to go hunting (which is what she wanted you to say), you said that you couldn't go on X weekends.  Am I understanding?   If so, then she's mad that you're leaving your "options open" to possibly hunt at another time.  She doesn't ever want you to go because she doesn't want you to have any sort of life/hobby away from her. 

Anyway, back to your original question... .   If you decide to leave, then you QUIETLY make arrangements, pack your things, etc, and then either tell her right before you leave or call right after and tell her quickly and don't let her go "on and on".  The break must be clean.  If you were to tell her before you've made arrangements, she'll be at your side the whole time yelling at you and calling you names.  You won't be able to think straight and take the things you need. 

[Cipher13]

It sounds like she's mad that you didn't put a finality to the hunting question.  Instead of saying that you're never going to go hunting (which is what she wanted you to say), you said that you couldn't go on X weekends.  Am I understanding?   If so, then she's mad that you're leaving your "options open" to possibly hunt at another time.  She doesn't ever want you to go because she doesn't want you to have any sort of life/hobby away from her. 

You are close. It isn't that she doesn't want me to hunt or have a hobby. Its that she doesn' t trust me to be alone to do them. She can see me so she done't know if I am hunting or having an affair. Thats as direct as I can be about it.

Anyway, back to your original question... .   If you decide to leave, then you QUIETLY make arrangements, pack your things, etc, and then either tell her right before you leave or call right after and tell her quickly and don't let her go "on and on".  The break must be clean.  If you were to tell her before you've made arrangements, she'll be at your side the whole time yelling at you and calling you names.  You won't be able to think straight and take the things you need

Its seems like the cheap easy way out. It seems dishonest and reaks of lack of respect... . Yet you are right it sis the only way it can be done. She will never let me out the door. I tested this last night in a way. It was horrible.

[SadWifeofBPD]

It sounds like she's mad that you didn't put a finality to the hunting question.  Instead of saying that you're never going to go hunting (which is what she wanted you to say), you said that you couldn't go on X weekends.  Am I understanding?   If so, then she's mad that you're leaving your "options open" to possibly hunt at another time.  She doesn't ever want you to go because she doesn't want you to have any sort of life/hobby away from her. 

You are close. It isn't that she doesn't want me to hunt or have a hobby. Its that she doesn' t trust me to be alone to do them. She can see me so she done't know if I am hunting or having an affair. Thats as direct as I can be about it.

Anyway, back to your original question... .   If you decide to leave, then you QUIETLY make arrangements, pack your things, etc, and then either tell her right before you leave or call right after and tell her quickly and don't let her go "on and on".  The break must be clean.  If you were to tell her before you've made arrangements, she'll be at your side the whole time yelling at you and calling you names.  You won't be able to think straight and take the things you need

Its seems like the cheap easy way out. It seems dishonest and reaks of lack of respect... . Yet you are right it sis the only way it can be done. She will never let me out the door. I tested this last night in a way. It was horrible.

Don't kid yourself.  She doesn't want you to have a hobby, activity, friends, etc, that take you away from her.  She probably only tolerates you having a job because she understands that that is the source of money.  If she were to have it her way, you'd be home 24/7.  The whole "cheating" thing is just a red herring.  You could be castrated and she still wouldn't want you out of her sight.  She's afraid that you'll find life away from her is better.

It's not dishonest or disrespectful to plan and implement your exit without telling her in advance.  That's rather typical, but especially when you're dealing with someone who won't accept the news with grace. 

[Cipher13]

She probably only tolerates you having a job because she understands that that is the source of money.  If she were to have it her way, you'd be home 24/7.

Maybe some truth to that. She has mentioned or has wanted me to have a stay at home job. At least when I was looking for a 2nd job she wanted me to find one of those.

She's afraid that you'll find life away from her is better.

This I know is 100% true. She told me I make her unhappy. I said then maybe I need to come to terms with letting you go so you can be happier. Her reply was "and when that happens all I can thing about is how happy you will be when that happens and how miserable it will make me."

I said then it might not be me then that makes you unhappy because based on what you just told me you will be unhappy either way. 

Also yes I agree the cheating is a read herring because she doesn't always use cheating as the reason. She will use that even what I say to her won't be what I do. I might say I am going here to "x". She thinks maybe I will just say that and goe some place else and do "y".

The whole making arangments seems difficult. From what I have looked into so far is to open a unknow checking/savings account.  I don't have much $ plus she is the one that balances the books on a weekly basis and I have to account for every penny so I do not buy anything. We don't carry cash just use a debit card so ever trans action is accounted for. This I don't think was  put in place to monitor anything it was just easier than figuring out how much cash to have on hand.

[Cipher13]

Anyway, back to your original question... .   If you decide to leave, then you QUIETLY make arrangements, pack your things, etc, and then either tell her right before you leave or call right after and tell her quickly and don't let her go "on and on".  The break must be clean.  If you were to tell her before you've made arrangements, she'll be at your side the whole time yelling at you and calling you names.  You won't be able to think straight and take the things you need. 

Back to this... . its exactly the scenerio she claims to have recuring dreams about that I do to her. One other is that my parents come to kidnap me... . Funny thing there is I mentioned this to them the last time I secretly met them... . my dad said that it actually crossed there lips and they talked about it.  My dad is a small plane pilot. My brother is a police officer with some connections. My moms boss has a good deal of money and connections and a private plane. My dad is frined s with the owner of the airport near there house and there son has his own helicopter. My dad said they could actually put something together and get me in a couple hours time.  They live 4 to 5 hours away by car.

So maybe I do have an option. Just I like my job an dmy work. Its my sactuary away for this. This stresses it has seem fun compared to at home.

[SadWifeofBPD]

The whole making arangments seems difficult. From what I have looked into so far is to open a unknow checking/savings account.  I don't have much $ plus she is the one that balances the books on a weekly basis and I have to account for every penny so I do not buy anything. We don't carry cash just use a debit card so ever trans action is accounted for. This I don't think was  put in place to monitor anything it was just easier than figuring out how much cash to have on hand

Is your paycheck auto-deposited on a weekly or bi-weekly basis?  If so, put a stop to that.  In the meantime (before your next check), make your other arrangements, then move out when you get your first check.

You seem to think that this is disrespectful but really it's what a person has to do when escaping captivity. 

[frustrated b/f]

some of the points you raised sound strikingly similar to the situation I was in with my uBPD g/f. She would lull me into believing I could take a break from working while in Grad school while she held things down. When I did, I was penny-less, and ultra-dependent on her, and like clockwork all the drama would arise when I had no other options. Since I've been living apart on  my own, the temper tantrums have ceased all-together. As soon as they flare, I cut off contact, and her behavior seemed to level out.

It would be an great relationship if I were in my twenties and my ideal relationship was living separate lives while being with someone!

bottom line, you need to get financially secure and let her be

[Clearmind]

Anyway, back to your original question... .   If you decide to leave, then you QUIETLY make arrangements, pack your things, etc, and then either tell her right before you leave or call right after and tell her quickly and don't let her go "on and on".  The break must be clean.  If you were to tell her before you've made arrangements, she'll be at your side the whole time yelling at you and calling you names.  You won't be able to think straight and take the things you need. 

Sadwife, I need to respectfully disagree that this approach will create a calm and centered situation. It is the exact thing that triggers a Borderline and even if she wasn't Borderline it would trigger. As partners Cipher and his wife need to sort through the triggers with boundaries not disappearing acts.

[waverider]

Anyway, back to your original question... .  If you decide to leave, then you QUIETLY make arrangements, pack your things, etc, and then either tell her right before you leave or call right after and tell her quickly and don't let her go "on and on".  The break must be clean.  If you were to tell her before you've made arrangements, she'll be at your side the whole time yelling at you and calling you names.  You won't be able to think straight and take the things you need.  

Back to this... . its exactly the scenerio she claims to have recuring dreams about that I do to her. One other is that my parents come to kidnap me... . Funny thing there is I mentioned this to them the last time I secretly met them... . my dad said that it actually crossed there lips and they talked about it.  My dad is a small plane pilot. My brother is a police officer with some connections. My moms boss has a good deal of money and connections and a private plane. My dad is frined s with the owner of the airport near there house and there son has his own helicopter. My dad said they could actually put something together and get me in a couple hours time.  They live 4 to 5 hours away by car.

So maybe I do have an option. Just I like my job an dmy work. Its my sactuary away for this. This stresses it has seem fun compared to at home.

I think what Sadwife is getting at, and also my feeling, is that there is no easy rational negotiated ways of parting with a pwBPD. ie compromising. So whatever you decide to do needs to be thought through, and pretty final in your own mind with a firm plan of following through. Definitely not reactive or left to "suck it and see" type of planning. Mud will be thown, things will get confused. The result will not be beneficial to either of you if not fully prepared for enacting.

I would not be sneaky or try slipping away, but open and make it clear with plenty of warning that this behavior, is not something you are willing to continue living with and that steps need to be taken to ensure it does not continue. Either by her, or by yourself, to protect what is important to you.

Leaving should not be the consequence of a "last straw' conflict, nor that be made to sound like the reason. Above all you need to be absolutely certain that you have no other choice, and that you are acting as fairly, even handed, and as honorable as is possible in what are traumatic times for everyone.

Anything you can't risk being destroyed should not be left behind

[SadWifeofBPD]

Anyway, back to your original question... .   If you decide to leave, then you QUIETLY make arrangements, pack your things, etc, and then either tell her right before you leave or call right after and tell her quickly and don't let her go "on and on".  The break must be clean.  If you were to tell her before you've made arrangements, she'll be at your side the whole time yelling at you and calling you names.  You won't be able to think straight and take the things you need. 

Sadwife, I need to respectfully disagree that this approach will create a calm and centered situation. It is the exact thing that triggers a Borderline and even if she wasn't Borderline it would trigger. As partners Cipher and his wife need to sort through the triggers with boundaries not disappearing acts.

Oh, I wasn't implying that this would create a calm situation for the pwBPD.  there really isn't a solution to create a calm situation for leaving with this type of person.  If he nicely tells her that he's leaving, she's still going to come unglued. 

From what he's described, any attempt to give her advance notice would result in outbursts, raging, etc.  In that scenario, it would be hard for the OP to "think straight" in order to go forward and gather his things to leave.  That's why I suggested getting things in order first, so that when the outburst occurs, he can either quickly leave or be elsewhere.   

I know that this is the same advice that my sister, a T, has given me.  Too many spouses get a violent response when they try to leave with the pwBPD there when a quick exit isn't possible.

[Suzn]

We don't want to assume your wife's thoughts about anything or to assume what she "might" do. Assuming creates a "non-reality" and we often act on that non-reality, instead, let's try to deal with the facts, the reality. The fear your wife has is very real to her Cipher. This is apparent with her attempts of control over you. As it seems, she is succeeding and as you are seeing, her control is not squashing her fears. She is going to have to be the one to learn to cope with her fears, you can't cope for her. You can be as validating as possible though not give up everything you want to do in your life.

I think it's good you see that you and your wife's decision for money management isn't done in malice. Though if this makes you uncomfortable you have a choice to change it. We, as adults, can change our minds, we can reassess situations and make changes.

It is difficult to start setting boundaries for yourself though very necessary. You are both adults. Having hobbies is a healthy outlet for you and following through with your plans to pursue them is a good plan. You can't stop the rages if that's the route she takes, that is her choice. You deal with rages with time outs. You say you attempted this last night, what happened?

[SadWifeofBPD]

" (I seriously want to leave) how would it go if I finally said... . ok lets split up.

What has been other experiences with the original break up and divorce? What was that situation like? I mean after all its finally giving into there greatest fear."


Maybe I misread one of Cipher's earlier posts in another thread, but I thought he said something that implied that based on past behavior, he thought his wife would be very difficult if he tried to get ready to leave with her right there.  Or, maybe it was his post that his family feels the need to "kidnap" and rescue him.   

Frankly, even in a relationship with another Non, it would be very hard and likely combative if the spouse who is leaving does everything (pack, etc) in the physical presence of the other spouse.

Anyway, he's asked what others have experienced.  When I've tried to leave in the past, it has not been pretty except when I've quietly have left. 


"Anything that you can't risk being destroyed should not be left behind."

This is really what I'm referring to. One needs to plan ahead.  A person who's been married for 10+ years likely has accumulated many items and to try to quickly gather them up (and even think about what needs to be gathered) in the midst of telling their spouse that they're leaving would be impossible.  I've been there.  After I left with the things that I quickly gathered, H went around the house to find things that I would still want, put them into his car and dumped them into some unknown dumpster - never to be seen again. 

[Cipher13]

I wish I didn't have to go home at 3 yesterday so I could have kept up with this thread.  Anyway I want to get to a few questions.

You say you attempted this last night, what happened?

I know I didn't handle this the best way but when the topic of hunting came up again. Now mind you I never once asked her to change her mind and let me go and I never implied I wanted to do so. It started to get elevated and louder. So I mentaly hit the point where I said ok I need to leave the room its getting to heated. I said I need to step out until this calms down you talking to loud and I'd like to talk in a quieter manner. She was getting more up set. I decided a different room wasn't the option now I needed to go outside. Went into the bedroom and put my shoes on. She shut the door and stood infront of it blocking it with her body. She grabbed and push my hands away from trying to get to the knob. All the while I said I will stop and sit down the second you lower your voice. BY this point she was screaming no you are not leaving stop. It wasn't and I'm angry with you it was a full blown uncontolled rage. I saw it in her eyes. Its was at that point I told myself there were 2 ways this could go. If I continued to try to leave it may get violent or I can be the adult here and just sit on the bed and wait it out. I was angry to so I needed to calm down. I kept cutting her off which made her angry so stopped doing that.  So thats what happend just when I attempted to leave an arguement for a time out.


As far as any type of leaveing... . we have a joint account. Her check goes to saving mine to checking. Both auto deposit. We have auto bill pay for some items to. For me to leave I anly would need clothers as over 10 years of being married the stuff accumulated  is not mine. I havea car thats paid for. I have a crossbow never been used and clothes. Thats it. I have no momentos. the rest is stuff that I can do wothout. I have little to any personal items as it was never really allowed. Over time I sold most of those things as they got inthe way of the time i ned to spend with her... . ie video games and books and guitars.

Probelm is that I know she hates were we live... eventhough she picked it out... . and I like the house. But I'm not so attached that I couldn't leave it. I just don't want o pay for it if I don't live there.

[Cipher13]

My wife has been the one to bring up splitting or divorce. I am sensing now that the way she is doing it is to put it on me. She claims I make her unhappy and we should break up. At the same time saying it woul dmake her miserable to see me happy after that happens.  So the question pose to her with no answer if I make you unhappy and thus not being with me still makes you unhappy could it be that i'm not what makes you unhappy?

I have never said or brought up leaving or divorce. I have always said I don't want to. Even though my head says I need to get out f here. I think she says this to get that answer out of me that I don't want to break up. The closest I ever came was saying maybe I shouldn't be selfish and let you go since thats what you just told me you want to do.

[Clearmind]

cipher, people with BPD live in fear of being abandoned. Her threats for divorce are simply that - threats - they are to test your resolve.

Can you validate?

[Cipher13]

Can you validate?

I have tried but I am not doing it right or she isn't responding to it. Plus how do you validate is this situation. I mean everything is all my fault even a text. If asked a question yes or no and I say yes or I say no I was disrespectful nthe way I said yes or no.  How can 1 word cause that? It can't. Its her perception. So its hard to converse with her if she wants what i say to  be mean or nice she is the only one that controls that. She looks for everythign to have a hidden message. Sh has even told me that. "I don't beleive anythign you say so I have to find out what you are hiding."

[Suzn]

She looks for everythign to have a hidden message. Sh has even told me that. "I don't beleive anythign you say so I have to find out what you are hiding."

Cipher to the right of your screen are links to Choosing a path. These lessons are your best friend. For you and for her. Your reactions are seen in many ways, not just your words, it can also be seen in your body language. If you are timid, it is seen, if you are angry, it is seen, indifferent, it is seen... . and so on.

This is the first lesson.



Step 1 - Stop the Bleeding

You are probably asking yourself, Why was she doing this to me? Why does she think I am the cause of all the problems? Why is she so unreasonable and hurtful? Why is there such a double standard? You are probably feeling either hurt and defensive, or resentful and angry, or both.

Often we find ourselves caught up in a cycle of conflict. We trigger reactions in them. This in turn triggers reactions in us. And so on. You may be living together - yet alone and in cold war. You may be separated and fighting.

What should you do? The same thing we do for any wounded soldier: "stop the bleeding". This is not a long term fix for the soldier and it is not a long term fix for you. But if we don't stop the bleeding, nothing else really matters.

What does it mean in this context to "stop the bleeding"? It means to end the destructive, pointless, circular miscommunications with your partner. This can only happen when one party stops. If your partner has BPD or BPD traits, this is not likely to happen unless you initiate it and stay strong. For you to do that, you must first believe that "stopping the bleeding" is in your best interest - and far more important than all the things that are driving the cycle of conflict.

Unless there is physical abuse, stopping the bleeding is more important.

How do we stop the bleeding? First, we stop fighting back. This goes beyond just 'not arguing'. It includes: no pouting, no passive aggressiveness, no silent treatment, no saying "whatever".

Second, we use proven communication techniques. Everyone wants to be heard and understood. After food and shelter it is one of the more basic of human needs. Giving this to the pwBPD (or with BPD traits) is a powerful way to break down the immediate trauma. It is possible to stop making things worse and it begins with learning a new way of responding and listening. And it includes learning how to ask for what we want in a constructive way.

There is a formula for speaking with someone that has a better chance of success if used properly. Our attitude, tone of voice and body language has a huge impact on how our message is interpreted.

Communication techniques are discussed here. They take practice. They take time to work. Be patient. You may get frustrated, but keep trying as the payoff could be a new, healthier relationship.

Validation is a skill we aren't born with we have to practice and that takes a little while. This won't change overnight and to expect that is unrealistic. We can help you with these skills, finding the courage is hard and we get that too. The choice to pursue these skills is one only you can make. It does take work. You are still with her and learning some of these skills can help right now.

Validation is the acknowledgement of her feelings, it doesn't mean you have to agree with them however you can make a connection by understanding her point of view and showing her that you see her side.

You can read more about Validation skills here:

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it