Is it typical for a BPD partner to talk badly about you behind your back?

[TriggerMortis]

One of the most harrowing things about BPD for me is the volatility — a nice supper can go to hit in minutes, if not seconds, due to "looking at her wrong" or not letting her interrupt your conversation.

My uBPDw has a history of ranting at me, then if I cut the fuel to the fire and go away, she'll talk badly about me to others and go on about our problems. The next day of course, she might praise me as a great guy. It's extremely contradictory. I know this because I hear back about it, details that could have only come from my wife. I don't like it because I believe trust in a relationship needs to be built on not backstabbing each other. Part of what I've read in general advises me to "not give a hit" because that kind of behavior is beyond my control. I've already talked to my wife about keeping things between us, and in her "out-of-control" moments she continues to flail around and vent to others. This is not helpful. Talking to her therapist, I can understand, but to her friends breeds more distrust when they only get her (very distorted) side of the story.

This seems to be extremely common with BPDs. Have you had this experience, and what do you do (or not do) about it?

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[schwing]

Hi TriggerMortis, and 

One of the most harrowing things about BPD for me is the volatility — a nice supper can go to [heck] in minutes, if not seconds, due to "looking at her wrong" or not letting her interrupt your conversation.

Some of the criteria for the diagnosis of borderline personality disorder include the following:

"A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called 'splitting.'"

"Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)."

"Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights). "

Any of these could be describing what your uBPDw is going through when she has her episodes.

My uBPDw has a history of ranting at me, then if I cut the fuel to the fire and go away, she'll talk badly about me to others and go on about our problems. The next day of course, she might praise me as a great guy. It's extremely contradictory.

The "extremely contradictory" behavior of one day talking badly about you and the next day praising you as a great guy, this is "splitting."  This is the alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.  And it is important to know that she is doing this not so much because of who you are or what you do, but because this is part of her disorder's process.

So in a sense, she praises you one day, because she *needs* you to be the "good guy" but on the next day when she *needs* you to be the "bad guy", she will devalue you or even talk badly about you behind your back.

So this kind of behavior (the splitting) is in fact quite common for people suffering from BPD.  Although how different pwBPD express their splitting can vary.  It is quite possible that some pwBPD, when they devalue their loved one, they keep this to themselves.  But they still go through it.  Your uBPDw chooses to openly communicate her alternating feelings.

I don't like it because I believe trust in a relationship needs to be built on not backstabbing each other. Part of what I've read in general advises me to "not give a [&*%@]" because that kind of behavior is beyond my control. I've already talked to my wife about keeping things between us, and in her "out-of-control" moments she continues to flail around and vent to others. This is not helpful. Talking to her therapist, I can understand, but to her friends breeds more distrust when they only get her (very distorted) side of the story.

I know this kind of behavior can be destructive to a relationship.  And it is your choice how you wish to handle this behavior.  You just need to accept that until/unless your uBPDw takes steps towards finding other ways (e.g., in therapy or recovery) to manage her disordered feelings, this is just part of her disorder's process.

I imagine from your wife's perspective, it is preferable for her to communicate her feelings to other people because they are not in a position to contradict her account and would only be able to validate her feelings (disordered as they may be).  But yes, her friends are very likely to only get a "very distorted" perspective of your relationship.

Best wishes, Schwing

[Washisheart]

Yes, mine I found out the hard way had done it in the past. And I am sure he probably still does. It's disheartening. I read other people's accounts on this site and I feel like we are all living the same life

[sara101]

wow, I have the same situation with my husband .once he spoke badly about me behind my back to a few of his friends and a few of them actually called me and told me about it. I was so embarrassed. I confronted him and asked him not to behave this way and he said he woudnt do it again,however he cant control himself. my husband has a tendency to lie &/or exaggerate truths,i think his friends know him well enough and i don't think they believe all his stories   

[confusedhubby]

This type of splitting behavior is very common for pwBPD. My diagnosed with of 14 years did it to me all the time after the idealization stage. Whats worse is when they do it behind your back. I think part of the problem for them is an inability to deal with the problems they have created/ So there response is to blame there significant other. 

BPD is a serious mental illness and splitting is amongst its most destructive behaviors. Unless they acknowledge there problem and get therapy for it, there is no hope of it ending.

[waverider]

Keep in mind that this is not really about you. It is about displaying her emotions, which quite often are more about how she feels about herself. But they have difficulty with open self criticism as denial is their chief form of defense, otherwise they would implode with self loathing.

In order to let their anger, or other emotions, out they need to project it on to someone else, most often this will be you. Its your fault they are having a bad day, its your fault they feel like a failure. Likewise when they are feeling great it is because you are the whitest of knights (idealization).

Hence the contradictory attitudes. There is little in the way of balanced considered opinions. The past is rewritten to validate the mood of now, and future plans are made, changed and cancelled based on the mood of now. This gives rise to the difficulties in regulating their physical life as well as emotions. In my partner this shows as virtually nil productivity in anything she does, or plans to do. Consistent planning is impossible.

Everyone she has had any regular contact with has has 'abused" her at some stage, and also been an absolute role model at others. Both persecutor and rescuer. These roles are constantly swapped between everyone, with no one remaining static.

This is where third parties easily fall into the triangulation role as mentioned previously, it is hard to avoid. You find yourself being convinced someone else is persecuting them (being convinced you are the rescuer who understands them), only to find they have switched allegiances, and your are then the one with the issues and needs to "get over it". You are left feeling set up, creating resentment. Historically this is what causes people to then abandon pwBPD. Self fulfilling the abandonment issues and the "I'm unlovable" self loathing they suffer.

[connect]

Very astute Waverider 

[confusedhubby]

Hi Waverider.

Thank you for that insightful explanation. Very accurate as far as I am concerned.

The question I have always pondered is whether the process you described, are they aware of what they are saying is a falsehood? Is it there self defense mechanism is so strong that they believe what they say? Or is it that wht they are saying is a falsehood and say just to appease there desire to not feel guilty.

My diagnosed pwBPD wife has painted me black recently and will tell anyone that listens how abusive I was to her. Problem  is that it's just not true. When I confront her with what other have told me she tends to deny she ever said it. I have even confronted her with the text messages she has written with these false allegations and she again denies it or says I misunderstood what was written. Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

[waverider]

Hi Waverider.

Thank you for that insightful explanation. Very accurate as far as I am concerned.

The question I have always pondered is whether the process you described, are they aware of what they are saying is a falsehood? Is it there self defense mechanism is so strong that they believe what they say? Or is it that wht they are saying is a falsehood and say just to appease there desire to not feel guilty.

My diagnosed pwBPD wife has painted me black recently and will tell anyone that listens how abusive I was to her. Problem  is that it's just not true. When I confront her with what other have told me she tends to deny she ever said it. I have even confronted her with the text messages she has written with these false allegations and she again denies it or says I misunderstood what was written. Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

They are aware that what they are saying is not the absolute truth to a degree, but they dont attached the same importance to the truth and facts the way we do. Truth, twisted truths and fabrications often have little boundary between them, and they will use either, or a combination which best describes how the feel right now.

it reminds me once of an interview I saw with David Bowie, who said he wrote lyrics, especially in his early days, by cut and pasting sections of text until they sounded good and conveyed the mood, or emotion, of songs, though he completely ignored the continuity of the lyrics. As a result he wrote many catchy songs, many of which people remember the words, which convey a mood. However, the lyrics when read as a whole are nonsense.

BPD convey their emotions the same, the components are not important, it is the essence. They do not think logical or linear hence normal logical communications are not adequate to convey what they feel. To feel abused is conveyed by claiming real abuse, to say they just feel it will result in being told they are being silly and hence invalidated. So they state it as a fact, and gain support. (feelings=fact)

This is why it is best to support and validate feelings rather than the stated facts. Feelings are real and unique and can't be denied. Stated facts are always subject to perspective and their meanings are debatable. pwBPD dont do debatable, that is where we go wrong leading to conflict when we are actually meaning to be supportive.

[confusedhubby]

Hi Waverider.

Thanks for the explanation but I am still a bit confused.

When you wrote earlier

Keep in mind that this is not really about you. It is about displaying her emotions, which quite often are more about how she feels about herself.

Are you saying that when she says I was abusive, she is really claiming that it was her who was abusive (or that she felt that she was being abusive)? Is this her just projecting on me so she does not have to deal with the emotions of it?


Thanks in advance for your inputs as I find them very informative and helpful.

[waverider]

To feel as though you have been abused does not mean you actually were, it is just how she feels, the anger is within her, she may be abusive or not, but the feeling and need to abuse someone is there.

It is not always a literal equivalent behavior just the emotion, in this case it is probably just of overwhelming anger. She will not be able to own the origins of this, it has to be projected as a response to something you did. ie she is only responding in self defense in her mind, you provoked it, hence you must have been abusive. The feeling of being abused can often be exaggerated from an intense feeling of invalidation, and the anger this provokes in her

[confusedhubby]

Hi Waverider.

So what your saying is that if I have invalidated her previous claims that I am abusive what she does is to get angry with me and to state it as a fact? That this is just her anger emotions on display and not about her believe that I was abusive? 

[waverider]

In extreme cases simply disagreeing is enough to bring about a claim of being abusive, if it brings about an aggressive feeling within her. She cannot be the cause of the anger it must have been the way you were treating her. Blaming you is a way to validate her own actions, owning aggression is too difficult

Invalidation/rudeness/stubborness/anger/abuse, We all go through these stages in a normal rising pattern. pwBPD can jump up and down this scale rapidly with often inappropriate attribution. One level could be labelled with either, that is basic lack of emotional regulation. The label is not relevant to your actions, simply the feeling evoked within her. She has minimal empathy so what you are actually doing, or feeling, is of little concern, it is all driven by herself, almost a self commentary.

If your reactions are more based on this realization you will avoid a lot of the stress. If you are attempting to try and apply logic to what it looks, and sounds, like on the surface you will just escalate this. Ironically by doing so you make it about you, but as stated it is not about you, she is not really interested in you, only her feelings, even if she is unaware of it. So you are now miscommunicating and increasing the frustration. To deny being abusive is invalidating her feeling of being abused (perception) by saying she is wrong, invalidation=abuse, back to start.

This is a lot easier said than done, as bottling up reactions is not good either, you need to get to a stage where you genuinely dont feel a need to react, that is when you are starting to get your head around true Acceptance as a concept.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Waverider, your insight is profound.  I appreciate what you share.  Take care.

[confusedhubby]

Hi Waverider. Thank you for your inputs. They are very helpful.

I am uncertain of one of the things you said however.

To deny being abusive is invalidating her feeling of being abused (perception) by saying she is wrong, invalidation=abuse, back to start.

Are you saying that we Non's should validate what the pwBPD says even if it's not true? For example when my wife claims I am was abusive and it is not true, should I just agree that I am and validate her false statement? Wouldn't this just reinforce the lie in her childish mind and convince her even more that I was abusive and further justify her demonization of me?

[waverider]

Hi Waverider. Thank you for your inputs. They are very helpful.

I am uncertain of one of the things you said however.

To deny being abusive is invalidating her feeling of being abused (perception) by saying she is wrong, invalidation=abuse, back to start.

Are you saying that we Non's should validate what the pwBPD says even if it's not true? For example when my wife claims I am was abusive and it is not true, should I just agree that I am and validate her false statement? Wouldn't this just reinforce the lie in her childish mind and convince her even more that I was abusive and further justify her demonization of me?

No, you are stuck in the cycle of trying to fix, or have an answer to, everything she does or says. Dont, when you get stuck in these circles disengage.  It is this faulty circular self defeating thinking that is one of their core issues that keeps them stuck and unproductive, by trying to have the right response for it you are just going around in the same circle trailing behind them.

pwBPD have this self defeating circular thinking as their first language, you wont be able to outsmart them, they will keep you locked in it forever as long as you try.

Step off the roundabout and you wont get as dizzy.

Validation is a good relationship maintenance tool, but it is not a fix all.

[confusedhubby]

@Waverider.

I am not certain I fully understand.

Are you saying that when she says I am abusive, I should just walk away and say nothing?

Doesn't this omission just reinforce her false belief? And how do I go about explaining to her that the "abusive" comment is a falsehood?

[waverider]

Are you saying that when she says I am abusive, I should just walk away and say nothing?

There empathetic ways of doing this but, effectively yes.

Doesn't this omission just reinforce her false belief? And how do I go about explaining to her that the "abusive" comment is a falsehood?

Reinforce in whose mind?

Be careful that your need to convince her of anything is not driven by the need to protect your own ego. I know it is hurtful when people make hurtful accusations. pwBPD know this, it is one of the triggers they pull to get us engaged in nonsense.

You are trying to control her perceptions, push that too far and it becomes a form of emotional abuse. She is allowed her perceptions, no matter how faulty, just as you are allowed yours.

It is a mental illness believing in skewed reality is simply a fact of life when dealing with mental illness. As a partner of someone with a mental illness you sometimes just have to suck it up and walk away if necessary.

[confusedhubby]

Thanks for sharing waverider.

I understand what you are saying but I have to tell you it's difficult to fully accept. I know what your saying about everyone is allowed to have there own opinions and perspective but there is a clear line between right and wrong. I think that by validating what they are saying you are just perpetuating a myth and feeding there childish perceptions. Surely there must be a better way? So what do you do if she comes out and says you raped me? Do you just say okay and walk away?

I don't think this is about maintaining the Non's ego.

I understand they have a mental illness and that logic as we Non's know it does not apply to them. At the same time however two wrongs certainly don't make a right. The only way I can see this working is that after a while the pwBPD finally gives up and starts to act in a non-projecting manner. However what happens if they don't stop and the accusations become bolder and grander?

Will have to sleep on what you have said... . makes sense but boy is it illogical at it's core. 

[waverider]

Everyone and every relationship is different and there is a fine line between worthwhile validation and just being dragged into engaging neediness. We all have to work out were that it is for us, what gets a productive result and what does not. The main thing is to realize there is a point were little or no progress is being made and they need to self soothe, they will not do this while you continue to engage.

Getting back to original thread title

Most pwBPD will talk badly, and make false or exaggerated claims, about people behind their back.

Can you stop this? No, not while they still have BPD.

You can substantially reduce how this affects you and your life. It is their problem after all not yours.

My partner by the way has made at least two claims of rape (which I believe to be false, though could not prove either way) against people who were close, then were "dropped", these claims came as parting shots if you like.

I have been accused of all sorts of physical abuse, and being bossy, shouting, being angry etc. This used to result in me being angry, now that i just shrug it off the claims have subsided and carry little conviction when made.

I do get angry and raise my voice at times, but it is rarely ever done in a reactive way. As it is not a reaction to her being angry she rarely counters with claims about me being abusive (ie she is not in projection mod) The claims are nearly always made while she is in that mode regardless of the way I behave.

[Phoenix.Rising]

confusedhubbyofBPD, If you are going to validate, it doesn't have to mean you accept or agree with their reality.  You are validating their feelings (which are very real to them), not reality or logic as you understand it.  This is where the Truth part of S.E.T. can come in by gently guiding them towards the truth after validation.  This takes a lot of practice and experience, in my opinion, because it needs to be done with a sense of realness.  In other words, I think they can usually tell if you are not sincere.  So, try to understand them on a feeling level.  You won't be able to relate to their reality, because it is not logical to you.

[confusedhubby]

Thanks for sharing Pheonix.

After thinking about what you and Wave Rider have said, it makes complete sense.

Had I known this before separating with my wife it may have made a significant difference... or maybe not as she would have to also have to accept her issues and want to recover. In reflecting on my past I think I may have done this when trying my best to understand her actions.

Regardless, I understand what you are trying to say. Very insightful. I have learned a great deal from this exchange. Thank you all for sharing.