The kid's phone is being misused...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Long story short, my fiancé's uBPDxw has residential custody in another state. He is supposed to be entitled to a minimum of one phone call a week one a specific date and time and he is very lucky if he gets even that. outy 's already been found in contempt once for this but that hasn't changed anything. Anyway, during the contempt hearing he offered to start paying for the kids to have a no contract phone so that maybe he could talk to them more.

Well that has done nothing except caused him to actually be paying for his once a week mandated phone calls (when he gets them) and the phone has been otherwise left turned off in a cupboard according to the kids.

So a few days ago she sent my fiancé a nasty text telling him he had to put more minutes on the phone. This turned into him asking her to let him talk to the kids more and he of course got nothing but abuse in return, calling him a cry baby for wanting to pay for the kids to have a phone and now getting mad that he has to pay for it.

So then we went and put more minutes on the phone and looked at the usage online. Sure enough the kid's phone has had a ton of activity on it. They are not allowed to text or send pictures and there have been numerous text messages and picture messages both inbound and outbound. Also, short calls to a number in another far away state. We can see that number but we can't see if the person being texted or pictures sent to and from is that same number. What we do know is that we can prove that she agreed that the phone's intended use was just got the kids to call both parents.

So we've been up in the air about what to do. We put more minutes on the phone so she can keep hanging herself in the custody case but obviously if we keep putting minutes on the phone till the court date the judge will know it is a fishing expedition. On the other hand we obviously can't just stop paying for the phone minutes without telling her why. We've debated having our lawyer send her something in writing saying we will no longer pay for the phone because minutes are getting eaten up and no calls have been to their father. If we leave it at that maybe she'll screw up and lie in court saying the minutes were all used by the kids to call her and we can show the records that prove the lie.

But another thought is maybe getting ahold of the lawyer and getting an emergency subpoena to the carrier getting us the contents of the most recent texts. Apparently the carrier has those for a short period of time.

My other thinking is this: we have a phone record that tells us all this is happening but we can't prove it is their mom. Really, we have a ten year old girl and a nine year old boy who could be being manipulated by an out of state predator. So really, I can't see a court denying an emergency subpoena request. What do you think?

[Nope]

Long story short, my fiancé's uBPDxw has residential custody in another state. He is supposed to be entitled to a minimum of one phone call a week one a specific date and time and he is very lucky if he gets even that. outy 's already been found in contempt once for this but that hasn't changed anything. Anyway, during the contempt hearing he offered to start paying for the kids to have a no contract phone so that maybe he could talk to them more.

Well that has done nothing except caused him to actually be paying for his once a week mandated phone calls (when he gets them) and the phone has been otherwise left turned off in a cupboard according to the kids.

So a few days ago she sent my fiancé a nasty text telling him he had to put more minutes on the phone. This turned into him asking her to let him talk to the kids more and he of course got nothing but abuse in return, calling him a cry baby for wanting to pay for the kids to have a phone and now getting mad that he has to pay for it.

So then we went and put more minutes on the phone and looked at the usage online. Sure enough the kid's phone has had a ton of activity on it. They are not allowed to text or send pictures and there have been numerous text messages and picture messages both inbound and outbound. Also, short calls to a number in another far away state. We can see that number but we can't see if the person being texted or pictures sent to and from is that same number. What we do know is that we can prove that she agreed that the phone's intended use was just got the kids to call both parents.

So we've been up in the air about what to do. We put more minutes on the phone so she can keep hanging herself in the custody case but obviously if we keep putting minutes on the phone till the court date the judge will know it is a fishing expedition. On the other hand we obviously can't just stop paying for the phone minutes without telling her why. We've debated having our lawyer send her something in writing saying we will no longer pay for the phone because minutes are getting eaten up and no calls have been to their father. If we leave it at that maybe she'll screw up and lie in court saying the minutes were all used by the kids to call her and we can show the records that prove the lie.

But another thought is maybe getting ahold of the lawyer and getting an emergency subpoena to the carrier getting us the contents of the most recent texts. Apparently the carrier has those for a short period of time.

My other thinking is this: we have a phone record that tells us all this is happening but we can't prove it is their mom. Really, we have a ten year old girl and a nine year old boy who could be being manipulated by an out of state predator. So really, I can't see a court denying an emergency subpoena request. What do you think?

[broken3]

Nope,

My advice.

Get a hold of the phones and download an app to get all pictures texts and calls.

Even when deleted from phone. It is all in archives inside the phone.

You may be horrified as to what you will find.

[Nope]

Unfortunately, she would only let us get the cheapest flip phone for them. Nothing they would be able to use easily to text or take pictures with. Which means if she is using it she is pushing each button more than once to get to the letter she wants for texts. The kids live with her several states away and the next time we see them (or the phone) will be Christmas.

We think she may be using the phone to cheat on her new boyfriend so that nothing shows up on her real phone that he might see. But the only thing that might matter to the custody case is that she agreed that if we are paying for the kids to have a phone then it is not for other uses and she is wasting our money. The fact that she is a giant slut and using the kids phone for that and we could prove it wouldn't necessarily hurt either.

[gettingthru]

Hate to say it, but in the scheme of things is this really the battle you want to fight. It will cost much more in legal fees than putting minutes on a phone.  I would say put a limit on what you will pay (based on how often the kids are spoken to) and leave it at that.  Are there other ways of talking to the kids?  A house phone perhaps?  Or maybe skype?   

[catnap]

If you are not already doing this start keeping all usage records.  Keep all texts (these can be printed out) regarding the phone, especially the nasty ones that are asking for more minutes to be added.  Can you one party record in your state?  If so record her calls as well.  Keep in mind that your fiance needs to remain calm and use a reasonable tone when recording. 

So we've been up in the air about what to do. We put more minutes on the phone so she can keep hanging herself in the custody case but obviously if we keep putting minutes on the phone till the court date the judge will know it is a fishing expedition.

Maybe, but if your fiance does not keep paying for minutes he has a reasonable fear that he would not receive any calls from his kids. 

Perhaps a short visit with the attorney to see what is the best way to use this in the custody case and what impact it would have--for instance Dad paid for X minutes.  Dad only received calls for X of these paid minutes.  Other calls, texts were to unknown numbers made when the kids should have been asleep or in school. 

I really like borken3's advice:

Get a hold of the phones and download an app to get all pictures texts and calls.

Even when deleted from phone. It is all in archives inside the phone.

You may be horrified as to what you will find.

Do you think when the kids come for Christmas she will send the phone? I would research to see if what broken3 advised would work on that particular phone.  Again, if she used to send intimate messages/pics to another person, how would that impact the custody case. 

For me it boils down to using your legal $ in the most efficient manner and how will it best help your case.

[Nope]

Hate to say it, but in the scheme of things is this really the battle you want to fight. It will cost much more in legal fees than putting minutes on a phone.  I would say put a limit on what you will pay (based on how often the kids are spoken to) and leave it at that.  Are there other ways of talking to the kids?  A house phone perhaps?  Or maybe skype?   

You have a point. This isn't about the little bit of money it costs to put minutes the phone. But we do need to assess how important her lying and misuse of the phone is actually going to be to the judge. Especially considering there is no language about allowing the children to use a phone or who pays for a phone in the parenting plan as it stands. Plus as much as it negatively impacts my fiance it has no direct affect on the kids that we know of.

As I mentioned, according to the parenting plan he is entitled to a minimum of one phone call a week and a specific time on a specific day and he doesn't always get that and he certainly doesn't get it at the proper time. That is literally the only contact he has with his children most weeks. Beyond that he gets six weeks in the summer and every other major holiday vacation (Christmas, Spring Break, Thanksgiving) and one weekend a month in BPDex's state if he can afford the trip (which we usually can't). But custody is considered 50/50.

We tried asking for video chat and she denied having internet in her home to do it and refuses to use the internet from her phone as it would cost her money. She also lied in court saying she didn't have a house phone and we are working on proving that she does. She keeps the cell phone from the kids except if she feels like letting my fiance have his "mandatory" once a week call. Since the "mandatory" call often comes from her own cell phone instead of the kid's phone, it won't make any difference in the level of contact he gets.

[Nope]

If you are not already doing this start keeping all usage records.  Keep all texts (these can be printed out) regarding the phone, especially the nasty ones that are asking for more minutes to be added.  Can you one party record in your state?  If so record her calls as well.  Keep in mind that your fiance needs to remain calm and use a reasonable tone when recording. 

Maybe, but if your fiance does not keep paying for minutes he has a reasonable fear that he would not receive any calls from his kids. 

Perhaps a short visit with the attorney to see what is the best way to use this in the custody case and what impact it would have--for instance Dad paid for X minutes.  Dad only received calls for X of these paid minutes.  Other calls, texts were to unknown numbers made when the kids should have been asleep or in school. 

Do you think when the kids come for Christmas she will send the phone? I would research to see if what broken3 advised would work on that particular phone.  Again, if she used to send intimate messages/pics to another person, how would that impact the custody case. 

For me it boils down to using your legal $ in the most efficient manner and how will it best help your case.

We do keep all records of calls. We've also been recording and that has been fruitful because she often rages and him and just generally sounds insane while he stays cool and tries to work with her.

We don't think that his adding minutes to the phone or not is going to do anything to change his contact with the kids. He wasn't really getting the one call a week he is supposed to get before he got them a phone. Then she was found in contempt of court for not making sure he got those calls. Now he has been paying for the phone and that hasn't changed things one bit. We'll be bringing her back for contempt for the exact same thing as soon as we can get it filed.

I was talking to my fiance today about potentially asking to get the kids a nicer phone. If she is using it to do things she shouldn't be doing and we play stupid and keep putting minutes on it, maybe SHE would like a nicer phone to use to text and picture message her boyfriends or whatever and therefor would be more inclined to want a phone that makes that easier. If so, we can send out the new phone with a hidden app. But as for getting this phone back at Christmas, it's fifty-fifty if she'll send it. Sometimes she does when we get the kids and sometimes she doesn't. She was talking about getting the kids a phone that she pays for that they can have when they are with my fiance. I think that comes down to her wanting the excuse not to send the phone back.

We will talk to the lawyer tomorrow about how potentially helpful any of this is to our case. If the judge doesn't care that this is just one more agreement between the parties (that was discussed but never signed in mediation) that she has broken then I suppose it doesn't matter and we should just stop paying and send her a letter from the lawyer (that we write but have the lawyer send on) saying that we will no longer be paying for the phone because we have reason to believe that it has been misused and just bring what we already have to court.

But again on the other hand, if she is texting about partying and drinking and whatnot it might help our case to be able to bring that to the court's attention since while we were there for contempt she told the judge "I have no life. All I ever do is work and parent my children." The martyr. 

[Matt]

What does your lawyer advise?

Does she have any experience with similar cases?

My thinking would be to have the kids bring the phone out next time they come to see you guys, and see what's on it.

Or maybe ask for a hearing to discuss this subject - maybe file a motion asking that she be declared in contempt for blocking phone access, and subpoena the phone.

My kids were 8 and 10 when we separated.  I got them both phones and gave them to the kids, not their mom.  They were thrilled, of course.  We had some basic rules - call other family members or 911 in an emergency but no calls from anybody you don't know.

If I ever called them and they didn't pick up - maybe I would call again a little later - but if they still didn't pick up, then next time I saw them I would ask why not, and let them know that I wouldn't pay for the phone if they don't pick up when I call.  The key was, this was an arrangement between me and each kid - my rules, I paid, and my purpose - which I was open about with them - was to make it easy for us to talk to each other any time.  I did not forbid them to call their mom - entirely their choice, just not during dinner or school.

If their mom had taken those phones away, or prevented them from calling me, I would not have accepted that for even ten minutes, and I'm sure she knows that.

I think your fiancee has allowed himself to be bullied by this woman - she probably bullied him while they were together - and now she is continuing to bully him - he has to pay for the phone, but she makes the rules, and probably uses it for her own purposes.

Some counseling may help him - or maybe it would help if you both go - to figure out how to re-establish the relationship with her along better lines.  He probably doesn't understand just how screwed-up his relationship with her is, or how big his role has been in letting it get this bad.  (And by the way, everything I'm saying about your fiancee could have been said about me too!)

[livednlearned]

I would prioritize it this way:

File a motion for contempt of court: Mother is not allowing kids to talk to Dad per the court order, which is not good for dad/kid relationship. 

Dad requests a modification to the parenting plan: Kids are to video chat with Dad 3 nights a week from 7-7:30pm.

Dad requests that mother do not use the phone he is paying for.

If you present this as though it's about how she is using the phone, it sounds like you are not focused on the kids. Make it about the relationship with their dad first. Then offer a solution. Then mention that the mother is misusing the phone -- that way, you can justify the fishing. It's just a footnote in court what she's doing, but it's wrong. Get it out there and corrected while focusing on an issue that the courts really care about, which is the relationship between kids and dad, and whether it is being supported.

[Nope]

@Matt: She has no fear of being found in contempt. She already was once and the "reasonable and customary" amount in her county is only $500. To be paid in $25 a month increments. Until it is paid off. She has several judgements for thousands of dollars of credit card debt she racked up a couple of years ago and has never paid so even if she doesn't pay the contempt fines at all she is judgement proof.

I agree that bullying took a huge toll on my fiance but he has been a whole lot better over the last year. The truth is that when she pulls this stuff there isn't a lot he can do from eight hours away. We tried this past summer to tell the kids no more phone unless they use it to call him and they both seemed to not care if they lose the phone if it means not having their mother angry. When he has asked in the past why they don't call they seem to panic and say they are too busy (at 9 and 10 years old) or that they forgot how to use it. It is BPDmom who they live with full time and who decides if they get treats or if they even get to leave their rooms from day to day. Calling their father just is not worth pissing her off. But that is easy to say, hard to prove. We are working on that.

@livednlearned: We are going for a second round of contempt and full custody based on the kids not getting proper care and parental alienation. In the meantime getting a court date is very slow going as we have to take days off from work and fly in, pay for hotel, etc. Plus she has been granted continuances for lawyers quitting on her. I think we have a good chance of finally having the judge listen but who knows. We had a solid case against her for contempt the first time and he let her walk. We had to have it overturned on appeal.  :/

[ForeverDad]

Wow, what court did you have to order once-a-week calls?  I had a "reasonable telephone contact" order until she complained in court she couldn't call 'her' son for 5 days (my cell was dead, I changed the greeting saying to use the house phone but she just left angry VMs in the cell account demanding to speak to son) and without even asking me for a response the magistrate order daily telephone calls.  With the 'reasonable' removed it created havoc with vacations and the occasional failed contacts.  In my mind, an order for daily is too much but then so is once a week to the other extreme, too little.

You can ask for the old phone to come along, but don't fret if it doesn't come.  Just buy the new or slightly better phone, set up your apps as recommended by experts - so it is a quality app, I think some even automatically send any texts and pics to the backup location - and send them back with the new phone.  Then stop funding the old phone and put minutes only on the new phone.

Or why wait months?  An alternate is to send the new phone sooner by mail with instructions that you've stopped making payments to the old phone and started funding of the new phone.  I don't think she can successfully argue to the court that it should order you to keep using the old phone.

In either case don't try too hard to negotiate the change from old to new phone.  It just IS.  Perhaps you can search around and choose a better carrier or vendor that will provide more extensive usage or content data.

As for the Contempts, if you can afford them, stack them up.  The more there are, the more the court ought to see a need to re-evaluate the custody order, well, maybe.  It will show a pattern that she is unwilling to share.  In my Custody Evaluator's report it meant a lot, it was noted that mother couldn't share 'her' child but father could and recommended she immediately lose temp custody.  While the court didn't act on the recommendation at that point, I believe her side knowing it was in the report helped me get a settlement on Trial Morning.

[Matt]

@Matt: She has no fear of being found in contempt. She already was once and the "reasonable and customary" amount in her county is only $500.

Your lawyer can explain that to the judge and ask for jail time instead of a fine.  The purpose of a contempt citation is to bring consequences so everybody will obey the court's rulings.  If a fine hasn't accomplished that she should be jailed.

[Nope]

@ForeverDad: When the parenting plan was being drawn up my fiance was still afraid of her. She was keeping him from having ANY contact or visitation at all with the kids until the parenting plan was signed. So he just wanted to give her something she might actually sign. That's why he asked for so little. He was desperate. As it turned out she didn't sign until the day before the court date anyway. Making it a total of a year and a half where he neither saw nor spoke to his children or even knew where they lived. He thought if he just played the verbal and emotional punching bag he had always been she would eventually do the right thing. He knows better now. But it was a hard lesson.

@Matt: *blink blink* Riiiiggght... . . The judge is going to throw a single mother of three in jail because she's being mean to her big strong ex husband. I've seen judges not throw single mothers in jail for a whole lot worse when they've been convicted of actual crimes, not just civil infractions. And if we ask for it then her L will just call that bullying and intimidation tactics. I think our best bet is just to say that clearly she can't do what she is supposed to do so the kids will be better off with the parent who can.

[david]

So you are paying for a phone. Me exBPDw bought our youngest a phone 6 years ago when she left. He was only 4 at the time. We also had an 8 year old but she had more control over the younger one. I was told that I was not allowed to touch it. That was by the ex of course. I thought it was not a good idea to let the 4 year old have a phone but that was another issue. I decided to not touch it. He lost the first phone. I believe he buried the second. Long story. The third he reverse engineered. I gave him a zip lock to put all the pieces in it. He lost a total of 7 before she realized this wasn't going to work. I just figured I would give you a laugh.

                                                                                                                                              I forget the type of phone but she had complete control of it. It had a phone book with 911, mom, and dad in it. You could not make any other outgoing calls with the phone. I figured the number out so I could call the phone if I wanted to. Perhaps you can get a phone like that.

[Matt]

@Matt: *blink blink* Riiiiggght... . . The judge is going to throw a single mother of three in jail because she's being mean to her big strong ex husband. I've seen judges not throw single mothers in jail for a whole lot worse when they've been convicted of actual crimes, not just civil infractions. And if we ask for it then her L will just call that bullying and intimidation tactics. I think our best bet is just to say that clearly she can't do what she is supposed to do so the kids will be better off with the parent who can.

The judge will decide what to do.  You just need to show that she has violated the court order repeatedly, and that the consequences given to her previously - a fine she didn't have to pay all at once - weren't sufficient.  And yes, courts sometimes do put people in jail - maybe for a very short time - to get their attention.

If your lawyer isn't willing to stand up for you, in some appropriate way, then you may need to find a lawyer who will.  She should be making a strong case to the judge on this issue.

I think you're right, this is one example which shows that she has some sort of problem and it is interfering with her judgment.

[ForeverDad]

The long term goal isn't so much to get meaningful consequences, though that is necessary, it is to show to the judge that she has a consistent pattern of not allowing a meaningful relationship with the children's father.  Even though he acquiesced way back when he thought he could appease her by trying to avoid ruffling her feathers, that didn't work.  So (1) time has passed, (2) she hasn't gotten any better with sharing even the small amount of parenting she agreed to and (3) so dad is asking not just to get the crumbs already in the order, but also more time so that he can have a more meaningful involvement in parenting.

Be sure to always stress that he has shown he can share but she has shown she can't share and won't foster a meaningful father-child relationship.  At some point that aspect may sink in as actionable to the court.

How much of the summer does he get?  Since he doesn't see them often during the year, why can't he seek more during the summer, perhaps if she is to keep school year then he gets the summers and she gets up to 3 weeks of vacation during the summer if requested.

He may have agreed to crumbs back at the final decree but most courts allow a parent to return to court later for modification of custody, parenting schedule or both, usually after at least a year.  If he is seeking a change of custody then in most courts that is called Change of Circumstances.  I had Shared Parenting with equal time, my case took a year and a half but I walked away with custody, no small accomplishment.

[ForeverDad]

Generally custody and the parneting time schedule are two different things.  Custody has to do with making the major issues, such as medical and other big decisions.  The parenting schedule is often separate issue, determined by a variety of circumstances and history.

For example, her history of majority parenting means a lot to the court, as my lawyer stated, the court is reluctant to 'upset' the children by making changes to the schedule without good basis.  My custody evaluator made a similar statement, that my ex's majority parenting history would be a huge hurdle to overcome, however in the CE's report it summarized that my ex couldn't share 'her' child but I could and CS recommended the court immediately end her temp custody (which it ignored and just went to the next step).

So the kid's dad has avoided therapists thinking it might make him look bad?  Though the ex may see it as a fault, actually, courts and professionals see therapy as a big plus.  Dealing with possible issues is seen as far better than Denial.  As my lawyer told me, "Courts like therapy!"  Also, courts seem to give less weight to a diagnosis and more weight to the actual behaviors and behavior patterns.  (To my knowledge my ex has never received an official diagnosis.  Although it has moved 'baby steps' in the right direction over time, this was largely due to her poor behaviors, not just my good ones.  That's true for many if not most members here.)

If he's getting therapy and she refuses, that speaks volumes.  Of course, whether court or other professional are listening or even care is another matter entirely.  Ex will naturally try to distort a good thing into allegations and blaming.

D10 is painted white and S9 is painted black and we can only sit here and watch the kids get more and more emotionally messed up the older they get. S9 has no sense of self worth and no confidence at all and has serious behavioral problems at school. D10 is used to being seen as perfect so if you call her on anything she is utterly shocked and denies she could have possibly done anything wrong because she doesn't do things wrong.

While you're seeking changes to custody and parenting time, don't forget therapy for the kids.  Or use the word counseling if that sounds better.  But it has to be with an experienced and perceptive counselor/therapist.  If ex picks one that gets conned by ex's emotional 'facts', convincing distortions and pressuring claims, well, a negative advocate like that could really confuse things for the court.

The reason to ask court for counseling is that you believe they need counseling to deal with the conflictual parenting and co-parenting on mother's part, also you are concerned that their current behaviors as you described above are beyond their normal inclinations, were groomed by their mother and sabotaging their proper emotional and values development which effective counseling can assess, monitor and deal with appropriately.

[DreamGirl]

My husband pays for my stepdaughters' phones. There's a rule that it must always be answered when he (or I) calls, or no phone. That has more to do with their prioritizing their friends over the people who actually pay for their phone. Don't get me started on how many times I've called 5 children with 5 separate cell phones and not one of them answers.  

I wouldn't pay for a phone that wasn't being used to contact me when the main purpose of purchasing the phone was in fact to contact me. I also would inquire about an unknown number that showed up on my kiddos' phone bill by a phone that wasn't be used to contact me.

I think responding to Mama in a calm, direct manor is an OK thing to do.

Support the fact that you're willing to put more minutes on the phone.

Don't accuse her of using it - express that it's not being used to call you though.  

Let her know that you won't keep purchasing minutes if they don't call.

In my own situation, when the girls were too young to have phones, my husband circumvented mom to talk to his kids. He went to their daycare and asked them if he could call just about every day at 4:00pm - if that worked for them. Told them that his ex-wife and him had a hard time getting along, even in front of the kids and that he just wanted to talk to his girls on a daily basis, but without interupting her parenting time.

They agreed.  

Win-win for everyone.

[Forward2free]

I would probably try to skate around the phone situation and ask if the kids have been using the phone to call other numbers as they are showing up on the bill, and you are concerned about who they might be etc. Plus, the credit is being used and then you can't speak to the kids... .

In my case, that would be enough for BPD/Nxh to know I was aware of it and not accusing him, and usually enough for him to modify his behaviour for a time. Hopefully the same would work for you. Waiting for court and the time/money wasted in the meanwhile is frustrating and expensive and setting traps is never as clean cut as you'd like.

I agree with David that a phone which has programmable numbers and restricts all other calls is an effective communication tool for children, and cannot be messed with by adults either.

[livednlearned]

If you get the kids smartphones, and the phone is in your name, as a parent, you are legally allowed to download an app that gathers all of the data your phone generates. For $125 or so, it will upload every text, every voicemail, any images, video, and -- this part blows my mine -- any conversation within 15 feet of the phone even when it is turned off. Every night, it uploads a file and you can access all the data from your computer. You cannot tell if the software is on the phone unless you take it in to be looked at by forensic specialist.

I thought N/BPDx had installed it on the smartphone that I gave my son. It would be legal for me to install that software on my son's phone because he's my son and I paid for the phone. But if N/BPDx did it, that would be a felony because the phone is in my name and we are divorced.

Just mentioning this in case you want to use her behavior against her by buying a phone for the kids that she abuses. If you consider it, talk to an L first about how that kind of evidence would play out in court. I have found that Ls and judges are shockingly ignorant about basic technology, and family law attorneys don't tend to be experts on privacy laws.

Sometimes I read this stuff and can't believe how much weird stuff we know because of BPD.  

[Nope]

How much of the summer does he get?  Since he doesn't see them often during the year, why can't he seek more during the summer, perhaps if she is to keep school year then he gets the summers and she gets up to 3 weeks of vacation during the summer if requested.

Yeah we tried to ask for that. She screamed and threw a fit. He gets them for six weeks during the summer that must be taken in June and July and aren't to touch August because the kids sports start in August before the school year starts. This past summer he finally had our L send her L a letter asking that we have the children THREE extra days on the front end of the visit for Father's Day. We get S9 for his birthday every summer because it falls on my fiance's parenting time. Due to deployments during the early part of their lives and BPDmom keeping the kids from him the rest of the time, he has never had his children for Father's Day. BPD mom gets the kids every year for Mother's Day and for D10's birthday. Her L wrote back looking for a compromise that would have meant we got the kids for Father's Day but would return them three days early so that BPDmom could have the kids for S9's birthday. OR would he be willing to trade off getting Father's Day every other year for not getting S9's birthday for that year. We thought this was utterly absurd because of how little time he gets in the first place. It isn't a question of us not wanting her to have him for his birthday. That could potentially be worked out. But Father's Day is now a bargaining chip? Really? It means nothing to her. THEN we got nasty texts before and after drop off from BPDmom because she has Saturday's off from work and she had to miss work on Monday to drive the kids her portion of the way because my fiance "wouldn't be flexible". The woman literally seems to have no concept of the fact that had she given him a few extra days she could have avoided missing any work. But this is all going to come up in court.

As my lawyer told me, "Courts like therapy!"

Not in the state we are working with. Or at least, not in the county we are working with. It's the middle of nowhere. The kids learned in school that "ain't" is a word. We spent our six weeks this summer deprogramming S9 from using it.

While you're seeking changes to custody and parenting time, don't forget therapy for the kids.  Or use the word counseling if that sounds better.

She told the judge that she wanted to put D9 in therapy. She said it was their dad's fault she hadn't done it yet because he needed to send her a list of preferred providers for her area as he provides the health insurance. The one that came to her was for our area. She had never asked for one. My fiance got in touch with the insurance company and got it mailed. She then never did anything with it and S9 is still not in therapy. We will be bringing that up in court as well.

Support the fact that you're willing to put more minutes on the phone.

Don't accuse her of using it - express that it's not being used to call you though. 

Let her know that you won't keep purchasing minutes if they don't call.

Tried that. She threw a fit and screamed at him. A month later over text he tried to bring it up again after she sent him a text saying he needed to put more minutes on their phone. She told him he said in open court he wanted to be in charge of a phone for the kids to use to call him and would pay for the minutes. If he was going to be a "big baby" and "start crying about it" then why did he ask to pay for a phone for them in the first place. Her response to the question of since he is paying for the phone could he get more calls was that there is nothing in writing that says she has to do that. Actually, she is wrong about that because the parenting plan specifically states that both parties are to encourage phone calls and a good relationship with the other parent. So that will come up in court as well.

I would probably try to skate around the phone situation and ask if the kids have been using the phone to call other numbers as they are showing up on the bill, and you are concerned about who they might be etc. Plus, the credit is being used and then you can't speak to the kids... .

We asked the lawyer what to do and are waiting for guidance. It's a disposable phone and we don't necessarily want to tip our hand that we can see how it gets used. If we tell her first before even trying to call the number, she'll find a way to have whoever that is change their number. Example of the crazy: One day screaming at my fiance on the phone about how going for custody meant he was trying to take their son away from everyone he knows and loves. BPDmom: "S9 loves his grandma, S9 loves his grandpa, S9 loves his nanna!"  She repeated this sentence like five times throughout while my fiance and I sat there with her on speaker phone looking at each other in a confused manner. Finally my fiance said, "Um... . BPDmom... . S9's grandpa has been dead for two years... . I told (the grandma) that I was sorry for her loss when I found out." The phone went silent. And then BPDmom said, "What's going on in my family is none of your business." Then by the time we went to court she had this whole big story about how her former elderly neighbor from before she moved to her current residence who watches the kids is like a father figure to her. She started having the kids call him "Papa (insert first name)". But whenever we talk to the kids about him they refer to him as "the babysitter". 

I agree with David that a phone which has programmable numbers and restricts all other calls is an effective communication tool for children, and cannot be messed with by adults either.

That would be great but so far she has refused to let us get the kids a nicer phone. She chose this phone and that is all the kids are to have because she doesn't want them texting and they have no need of a better phone than that. It should be noted, anything we've sent out that BPDmom hasn't like has either mysteriously vanished or mysteriously been broken by a suspiciously strong toddler little sister.

If we can get the kids smart phones we are willing to go the extra mile and download an app to see how it gets used. The problem is getting one into their hands.

The truth is, we've got a particularly bad pwBPD on our hands. A master liar and manipulator. She'll scream things in a person's face like they are absolutely 100% fact when they actually have no basis in reality at all. She comes up with all kinds of supporting evidence that has no basis in fact either. She seems to honestly believe that she is being wronged and that anyone with a set of eyes should be able to see that. She won't hear differently. Not from her L and not from anyone else. She actually texted my fiance at one point saying that she knew about a conversation S9 and my fiance had two days prior where S9 said (without any prompting at all) that he wanted to live with my fiance and I. She then said that if S9 was going to stab her in the back like that then she wasn't going to let him play baseball anymore. She didn't make good on that particular threat. But the fact that she is so sure she is in the right that she would even put that in a text is very telling. Obviously, now that S9 is no longer says he is sure where he wants to live, we are going to bring her bullying him up in court.

[Nope]

You know guys. I guess what I really want someone to tell me here is that we have a shot at actually at least getting poor S9 out of there. I think that's what I want to hear more than anything else. Your advice has been awesome and we are already asking the L about some of it. But I just need someone who's been on the FATHER's side to tell me that it's possible to do this. IRL I only seem to know of fathers who lost and now have grown or almost grown kids who have all sorts of emotional issues from the treatment by their mothers but who still won't talk to those fathers.

My fiance broke down crying a couple of nights ago because he loves his kids so much and has no idea what they are going through over there and he knows she rages and he can't protect them. He is so overwhelmed by all this court stuff. One of the things on his plate right now, quietly, is finding a therapist.

[broken3]

Nope,

Just keep doing the right thing and document, document, document.

I was able to get custody of all 3 of my kids from my stbxw.

When you start compiling names, dates, times, photos, doctor visits, therapy, school, activities.

You can then present a mountain of evidence backed up by facts and proof.

Not just the twisted recollection of someone who is troubled.

Because they have a mental illness. They will show up in court believing that they are entitled. And everyone will believe the vomit that comes from their mouth because that is what they are used to.

When they get challenged with facts over and over. And shown to manipulate and lie.

That is when they fall apart. And all the seams unravel.

Hopefully that is when they implode... .

That is what mine did!

[Matt]

You know guys. I guess what I really want someone to tell me here is that we have a shot at actually at least getting poor S9 out of there. I think that's what I want to hear more than anything else. Your advice has been awesome and we are already asking the L about some of it. But I just need someone who's been on the FATHER's side to tell me that it's possible to do this. IRL I only seem to know of fathers who lost and now have grown or almost grown kids who have all sorts of emotional issues from the treatment by their mothers but who still won't talk to those fathers.

My fiance broke down crying a couple of nights ago because he loves his kids so much and has no idea what they are going through over there and he knows she rages and he can't protect them. He is so overwhelmed by all this court stuff. One of the things on his plate right now, quietly, is finding a therapist.

Yes, it absolutely is possible for a father to get primary custody - it happens.

A lot depends on how things are done where you live, and on your lawyer.

My suggestion would be to start a new thread around just that topic:  Your strategy for primary custody.  I think you'll get a lot of good ideas to consider.

[DreamGirl]

You know guys. I guess what I really want someone to tell me here is that we have a shot at actually at least getting poor S9 out of there. I think that's what I want to hear more than anything else. Your advice has been awesome and we are already asking the L about some of it. But I just need someone who's been on the FATHER's side to tell me that it's possible to do this. IRL I only seem to know of fathers who lost and now have grown or almost grown kids who have all sorts of emotional issues from the treatment by their mothers but who still won't talk to those fathers.

Nope wants hope.

Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies. (I didn't write that. It's from the Shawshank Redemption.)

Our stories are all different. Our personalities are all different. Our Judges are different. Our lawyers are different. The pwBPD in our lives are all different. There is not a cookie cutter way to approach these circumstances. You have to do what's right for you.  My husband handled his custody case a lot differently then I handled mine. We had different lawyers based on what it is that we were ultimately trying to accomplish. My lawyer kept my neurotic self in check because my case was sound and my fear-based emotions had no business being there. My husband's lawyer was no-nonsense and aggressive and my husband needed that to clear the smoke and mirrors that his ex-wife was creating. There was a lot of effort that went into picking a lawyer. 

I'm sure it's been recommended, but have you read Splitting yet?

I've learned that the best kept secret is to surround yourself with good, knowledge-based, grounded advice. Don't let the emotions get the best of you. The courts don't care how you feel. They care about facts and conflict resolution. Mental Illness is also not grounds to lose custody of your children.  Never forget that.

My fiance broke down crying a couple of nights ago because he loves his kids so much and has no idea what they are going through over there and he knows she rages and he can't protect them. He is so overwhelmed by all this court stuff. One of the things on his plate right now, quietly, is finding a therapist.

This is why we are all here. The children.

Not many agree with a sentiment that my husband decided to accept a long time ago and that has brought him so much peace... .

He is not their savior.

and neither am I... . even though we tried to be for a really long time.

They are their own champions and the best gift we ever gave them was tools in learning how to be. They'll get thru this. Never give up hope.  

[livednlearned]

You know guys. I guess what I really want someone to tell me here is that we have a shot at actually at least getting poor S9 out of there. I think that's what I want to hear more than anything else. Your advice has been awesome and we are already asking the L about some of it. But I just need someone who's been on the FATHER's side to tell me that it's possible to do this. IRL I only seem to know of fathers who lost and now have grown or almost grown kids who have all sorts of emotional issues from the treatment by their mothers but who still won't talk to those fathers.

Like DreamGirl said, our cases are all so different, and whether or not your partner files for primary custody and loses -- no one can predict that. But speaking from my experience, I couldn't believe how hard it was for me as the mom to get full custody of my son, and was scratching my head about where all this mother bias was that people keep talking about. I don't know where my ex's behavior falls on the spectrum of abuse and crazy, but he definitely takes the gold for displaying his crazy where it's plain as day and easy to document. Even so, it was a long uphill slog to get sole custody.

I am a nerd and actually looked at the research on the mother/father bias, specifically trying to inspect the bias about whether moms are more likely to get primary custody. Here's the big thing: more moms file for primary custody. That's a big deal! Of the research on cases where dads filed for primary custody, researchers found dads were just as likely to get primary custody as a mom filing for the same.

I second what Matt suggested -- start a thread about how to get primary, or even full custody. You'll learn all kinds of stuff about strategic ways to make your case.

[Matt]

Here's the big thing: more moms file for primary custody. That's a big deal! Of the research on cases where dads filed for primary custody, researchers found dads were just as likely to get primary custody as a mom filing for the same.

Wow, that is a big thing!

I had never known that, but it makes a lot of sense.

I filed for primary custody, but before I did that, I did a bunch of stuff that hurt my case, so I had to come from behind.

If I had done the right thing from the start it might have gone better and been easier.

[ForeverDad]

The more I read and ponder this, the more I think you have multiple options.

For example, you could go for Contempt of Court now.  That would be another ding to her credibility as a parent willing to foster the child's relationship with the remote parent.  But not much else would happen.  Could you do it separate before the next wave of motions or do it all together?  Ask a lawyer, this is brainstorming peer support.

But you also want to do other things as well.  Custody is 50/50, is that legal custody for major decisions or is that parenting time schedule as well?  I'm guess it's just about legal custody.  While you could seek custody, that's is a real struggle and could take a year or more, in many states it requires you to file Change of Circumstances.  (For me that took about a year and a half.  We were in Shared Parenting, viewed equivalent to 50/50 and I filed it had failed and petitioned to end it and get custody.)

A little quicker (in my case not really by much, 15 months so far with ex's 4 requests for continuances) is a Modification of Parenting Time where you seek for the children to live mostly with the father.  Asking for majority also means asking for Residential Parent for School Purposes.  With this you can list, if applicable, that mother places obstacles in telephone contact, mother refuses to allow counseling for the children, children are underperforming in school, mother refuses to allow the children to be with their father on Father's Day, mother cannot share the children whereas father can, etc.  List as many items, incidents and issues as possible for the shotgun effect, hoping that it will be enough to make a difference.

Why ask for majority time?  Why not just a reasonable amount extra?  Because you may get a judge, GAL, evaluator or some other professional that my be inclined to just split the difference, hoping neither will feel they lost or won.  So if you have about 12% now and ask for 25% and she asks for you to get reduced to 5%, do you see that you might not get much more than you have now?  But ask for majority, give solid reasons for it and you just might get it.  Even if you don't, it takes a lot to convince a judge to make a drastic change, it'll lay the groundwork for another try later when you have additional documentation from new obstructions and incidents.

[Nope]

Thanks everyone! I'm going to take your advice and sit down for a bit tomorrow and get a new thread going just on this, stating the major circumstances and what we are trying to accomplish. I've just been hearing that she practically has to kill them for us to have a shot at getting anywhere and that's very discouraging. I really appreciate the advice and the clarifications. This site has been the first support I've gotten. We just emailed the lawyer on Tuesday with all of our questions and requests so we haven't been given any information yet.

He is not their savior.

That is going to be the single hardest thing to get through both of our heads. They are just kids. Just nine and 10. Every time we send them back S9 falls further behind and is more shut down and D10 gets more distant and tells more lies. It's so hard to watch.

But back on the topic at hand, I think she is done with whoever she was texting and sending pictures to. She must have split them black because the initial burst over the beginning of the long weekend stopped entirely. I would think she just switched phones, but she was on a tear with my fiance this weekend. She was so nasty and angry at my fiance for no reason that we were left very confused. But maybe it was just because she made a big deal out of telling my fiance that the reason he was getting his phone call late was because she was watching her new boyfriend play softball. I think she was hoping he would care. He didn't respond to the text.

Then on Monday my fiance was entitled to an extra call due to the fact that it was a court recognized holiday. At about noon he sent her a polite text asking to speak to them since it was a holiday. She wrote back "I already know how the parenting plan goes so I don't need your comments." He didn't respond. Then a half hour before the call was supposed to come in, his phone rings and it is BPDmom's number. So he picks it up and it goes dead. He assumes the call was the kids and the connection failed, so he tries to call back. He ends up leaving a very short polite message and then immediately gets a text back from BPDmom saying: "I shouldn't have to explain this obviously I called you by accident so I hung up. Kids have their own phone and it's not time for your call yet. But of course you would over react and call my phone back thinking it was them, no one could possibly make a mistake but hey let's just leave a message while we are at it and panic."

Last night there was one incoming text on the kid's phone. Other than that no activity. We'll see what happens next on this and we'll see what the lawyer says. But I'm half inclined to call the number and find out who this person is myself.

[Matt]

I've just been hearing that she practically has to kill them for us to have a shot at getting anywhere and that's very discouraging.

Who has been telling you that?

Lots of us have heard negativity like that from our attorneys, because it's easier for an attorney to lower her client's expectations than to meet them.

Unfortunately, the solution sometimes has to be a change of attorney.  My first one was a loser, and I couldn't fix him, so I had to find a better one.