BPMother - do they really not remember ?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hello- first time posting but have read a lot of posts that sound way to familiar. My mother says horrible things but the next minute acts as if her words were not meant to harm and act as if she did not say them or claims she does not remember. Could she really NOT remember?

[Enoughforme]

Hello- first time posting but have read a lot of posts that sound way to familiar. My mother says horrible things but the next minute acts as if her words were not meant to harm and act as if she did not say them or claims she does not remember. Could she really NOT remember?

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hello Enoughforme,

I'm glad you found us.  Has your mother been diagnosed with BPD?  Do you still live with your mother?  I believe my mother has BPD, so I understand the frustration and confusion.  As far as answering your question as to whether or not she remembers what she says, I cannot answer that.  Have you caught her in lies? 

A book that helped me understand some of the dynamics a lot better is Understanding the Borderline Mother

This video might be helpful: Video-What is Borderline Personality Disorder?

Phoenix.Rising

[livednlearned]

A book that helped me understand some of the dynamics a lot better is Understanding the Borderline Mother

My brother and N/BPDx are disordered, so I read Randi Kreger's most recent book about BPD: The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tools and Techniques to Stop Walking on Eggshells

There's a section in there about the lying, including how pwBPD view the quick changes in mood. I found with my BPD brother and N/BPDx husband that the shifts in moods were a form of "lying" because they didn't seem to remember in the same way I did, as though what just happened was somehow insignificant. According to Kreger, some of the "forgetting" appears to be rooted in neuroscience, and a lot of pwBPD tend to have less of whatever it is that scientists can measure when they're looking at memory. When the brain is flooded in stress, memory is apparently less effective.

Understanding the Borderline Mother is also really good. My grandmother was BPD, so it helped me understand what my dad and his siblings dealt with.

The stuff about emotional reasoning kinda makes sense. Have you read about that? It doesn't diminish how crazy it feels to hear it, or experience it. When I first heard about it, I thought it was just a way to make lying sound acceptable, but it does help explain why pwBPD seem so convinced with their lies, and why they can turn on a dime and believe something completely opposite.

[Taolady]

Hello and welcome.

Isn't that just the thing that makes YOU nuts? How could they not remember? Doesn't it make you doubt your own  perceptions? It's a hallmark of BPD. From my experience with my mother, it seemed to be all about power and being right. If she needed to lie, appear to have forgotten, misperceive, pretend, or invent something outrageous in order to come out on top, that's what she did.

It really makes you wonder for awhile, but little by little you'll see it for what it is. Right now, my mom really does forget things, so if I call her and she doesn't remember, she won't believe me or "give me credit" for having called. Any kind of drug or alcohol use just compounds the problem.

This is one of the most frustrating things about this disorder. It's not you. Good luck- we're all right there with you!

[zone out]

Hi Enoughforme

I too have often been puzzled by this memory issue.  I think when the BPD launches into a rage they are so out of control that they just lash out with the most hurtful things they can come up with on the spur of THAT moment.  My mother has come up with some very extreme accusations during one of her 'episodes' than next time has said something equally extreme but diametrically opposed to the previous time.  I have never challenged her on any of it when she is in one of her 'calmer and rational' moods - I have really wanted to but it is a case of let sleeping dogs lie!

One thing I have noticed is the fact that the ability to manipulate very effectively is always with them no matter how irrational and crazy their behaviour is.  Does anybody else notice this - no matter how out of control their behaviour is, they are still highly manipulative and controlling of the situation. 

Keep reading and posting - it really helps so know that you are not alone, so many people here share the same experiences.

Zone out

[Phoenix.Rising]

I've found that they can have selective memory, as well as create their own reality based on their feelings, not on actual reality.  I believe they do this with their feelings quite often, as feelings for pwBPD often equal fact.  So they must bend reality in order to gel with their feelings.  Otherwise, reality poses a major threat and they do not want to, or cannot, deal with that.

livedandlearned, I will get around to reading the book you suggested, and it makes sense what you are saying about the neuroscience being different in their brains.  I can see where the emotional dysregulation might set them up for these situations.

Enoughforme, are you still with us?

[Calsun]

Hi Enoughforme,

They don't.  I have come to feel as though this is a quintessential part of the borderline's experience.  My mother is an uBPD, and she just lacked any concrete memory of anything that she did.  She could abuse, say the meanest, cruelest things, and she would then deny ever saying them.  I do believe that borderlines have brain function issues that really impair not only their impulse control, but their memory, as well.  

One of the other things that my mother lacked was the memory of events in her shared life with her children.  Some parents might be able to reminisce.  Remember when we went here, remember when we did that.  Wasn't that fun? It's almost as though her life had no history to it, no sense of past events. She wasn't connected to anyone really, she had no capacity for attachment even to her own life. She would compare me to other kids, and almost acted like she would replace me with those kids in a heartbeat.  History had no weight.  Everything could be replaced, even what she said two minutes ago could become a non-thing and just erased from the history books.  A little like what Stalin did. Stalin just rewrote the history, and wrote certain people and events out of it. That's also the hollowness and emptiness of the BPD.  And my uBPd mother filled her void with rage and abusiveness.  I guess without that she felt that she would completely disappear in the ether, like what she said a few minutes ago.  It had to have been the result of brain abnormalities from trauma.  

My uBPD mother had a tenuous and distorted grasp on reality, which was a horrible nightmare for me as a child.  And she didn't even experience the reality of her children's personhood, which can make one feel that nothing, including oneself is real.  That Mom could write you out of reality, the same way she could write out what she said five minutes ago.  It could make you feel that your very existence was tenuous. 

But this awareness has been hugely important and helpful to me.  And I am coming to see that this isn't life, this isn't the reality of living, it was a reality of a person with brain abnormalities who couldn't function the way healthy people can.  And I am increasingly becoming one of those healthy people.

Best,

Calsun

[zubizou87]

I had a very interesting exerience with my mother this summer that I thought I should share with you. My mother is highly functioning, she has the ability to be very successful in her career but has always struggled with frendships and her relationships with other people, she'll go through female friends like brands of moisturiser.

So she has been aware for a long time that I don't like this about her and when she rants and says horrible things about her friends and sisters I give her no encouragement and make it clear I don't like it when she does that.

So we were talking one day about her sister who I really like and enjoy spending time with and she's always trying to talk me out of liking. She said somethig like 'and I know you don't like me complaining about people but... . ' I responded by saying that sometimes I worry she's not very happy and for me when she is being exsessively negative I worry it's because she's suffering. Then I asked her if sometimes she was unhappy which she told me she was.

I know every person with BPD is different but I have found through trial and error that if you accuse someone with BPD of saying something they feel like they're being attacked. If you repeat it in a sympathetic way "when you said this I was worried that you were going through somthing bad" they seem to remember more and be more understanding.

I hope this helps smooth over all of your interactions with your mothers... . God knows we could all do with a bit less shouting!

[Phoenix.Rising]

I know every person with BPD is different but I have found through trial and error that if you accuse someone with BPD of saying something they feel like they're being attacked. If you repeat it in a sympathetic way "when you said this I was worried that you were going through somthing bad" they seem to remember more and be more understanding.

Yes, I found this to be true as well.  A good technique for this type of communication is called S.E.T.

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

[Enoughforme]

Thank you everyone for the wonderful replies and making me feel so NOT alone. I just keep reading the boards and think wow I am not alone. I go between angry and sadness with this stuff. There is so much more to my story but that was the first question I wanted to ask. I will have to post where I am at on a new thread... . thank you all !

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hi Enoughforme,

Keep reading, and yes, we would like to hear more of your story.  I felt very relieved knowing I was not the only one going through the craziness.

When a family member has BPD, the illness can negatively everyone in the family system, including children, siblings, and in-laws. Senior members on the [L5]  Coping and Healing from a BPD Parent, Sibling, or Inlaw board are experienced with and can help you with setting boundaries, finding relief from FOG, encouraging self-care, improving your handling of relationships impacted by your BPD relative, and pursuing a path of recovery from traumatic experiences. The validation, information, and support will give you strength on your journey.

Phoenix.Rising

[todayistheday]

Some things she doesn't remember.

Some things she won't forget.

And lots of things she remembers very very differently from how I remember them.

[Santa Clara]

I have the same experience with my uBPD mother.  What you described in your first post is exactly my experinece and I have the same question. xx

[zone out]

I was thinking of what Zoubizou87 posted.  I would like to take this approach with my mother but I am scared of unleashing a can of worms.  I have often thought there must be something real and serious behind her 'episodes' rather than the totally insignificant things.  I wonder do BPDs do this - could the rage about the cat pawing the window just be a cover. 

My mother, on the few occasions when I have confronted her, will deny much if not all of the nasty things she has said, but one thing she does not forget is the subject of her grudges.  I have practically lost touch with relatives, it is just not worth inflaming her.

Do any of us really have an inkling of what goes on in their minds?

Zone out

[Phoenix.Rising]

Do any of us really have an inkling of what goes on in their minds?

It is next to impossible to understand them on a logical plane, so we have to learn to relate to them on a feelings level.  I've seen my mother hold on to the same grudge for over 30 years.  I did not understand it, but it makes better sense to me now that I think she has BPD.  Their thinking seems to run in circles, without any firm resolutions.  They seem to have a very hard time resolving any type of conflict.  I think their conflict resolution skills are out of whack.  If they have a resentment, I think they just compartmentalize it without ever doing anything about it.  They seem to be good at compartmentalizing their life and their feelings.  But since very little is ever resolved they are always walking around with this underlying anger, hence their episodes of aggression and nastiness.

[jdtm]

but one thing she does not forget is the subject of her grudges.

Many researchers claim BPD is a disorder rooted in abandonment issues.  I sometimes wonder if BPD is rooted in self-centeredness with abandonment issues resulting from not being able to consider any other person's feelings or situation.  It is always "about them".  Period.  Anyway, just one opinion - and a layperson's at that ... .

[zone out]

That explains a lot about my mother Phoenix Rising.  Her conflict resolution skills are very very out of whack - as even the merest potential for conflict is seen as a threat almost a personal assault the hackles go up and she digs in.  Quite a lot of issues are relatively simple and could be solved for her by me ... . but all my attempts at resolution are rejected.  She even yells 'no' when I start to speak - I am needed as the punchbag or the fall guy but woe betide me if I actually try and contribute something useful.  It is almost as if she thrives on some form of conflict - when she runs out of issues she tends to launch her aggression at me.

The compartmentalizing idea is interesting - I hadn't thought of that before.  Perhaps that explains how she can change so rapidly - its like something triggers her to move from one compartment to another - I used to think she had some multiple personality disorder but the BPD definitely fits.  

Thank you all so much - this is a great site.

zone out

[zone out]

Jdtm

I can relate very well to what you are saying about self centered issues.  I once tried to reason with my mother regarding some issue by pointing to someone who was in a very bad situation ... . she kept repeating over and over again "I don't do comparisons" - I thought it a really strange thing to say.  I think they probably have no control over the way their mind functions.  On one level they act like they have low self esteem, on another they behave that their needs are all important and must come first.  Perhaps it is all linked with the self esteem issues - they have to have you pander to their needs in order to feel worthwhile within themselves.

I used to wonder whey her 'turns' occurred statistically more often when I was busy with work, children's birthday parties etc.  She was probably jealous that my attention was elsewhere.

Zone out

[Phoenix.Rising]

I think most of the time they do consider conflict or disagreement with them as a threat, so they feel like they are being attacked.  And since BPD involves emotional dysregulation, their emotions escalate rapidly, so they are probably feeling an 11 on a scale of 1 - 10 while we are feeling a 5 in the same situation.  We may not be attacking them, but that is what they are feeling, and their feelings are their reality.  So, what we must do is learn to validate their feelings, but we don't have to agree with their reality.  This is not easy to do, and it takes real effort and practice on our part.  I think it's important for us as well not to try to rescue them from their negative feeling state.  They need to learn how to soothe themselves. 

[zone out]

(their feelings are their reality)  - This is the crux of the matter really.  Not a bit of wonder we are tearing our hair out - we are not dealing with reality, we are dealing with someone's perception of reality and a pretty warped perception at that.

The validation is really difficult - my early attempts have not been successful.  I have had so many conversations with her in my head but when it comes to the bit my mind just blanks and my heart races.  I feel if I could get the hang of SET it might help me gain some meaningful input into my most difficult interactions with her rather than being in the typical 'punchbag' scenario with her raging at me.  I wouldn't let anyone else treat me like this!

Zone out

[Phoenix.Rising]

Zone out,

Maybe you could post some examples of using S.E.T. on here and others could discuss and give their input...