As FOG lifts, more dilemmas revealed

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I was reading a great thread that Cipher13 started on the "Staying" board, and I was compelled to respond to some good points being shared there and I thought this might make a good Personal Inventory topic, so here goes.  I'hoping to make some more progress in this area. 

So, here's the post. With your help, I hope to get to the bottom of whatever issues I have which keep landing me in romantic r-ships with emotionally fragile and volatile people. Bring on the wisdom!

As I've learned about BPD and how the illness presents within the confines of otherwise positive r-ships, I've been able to overcome a lot (not all) of the confusion that most of experience as it begins to dawn on us that something isn't just not right, but very wrong. It's like, as the emotional roller coaster begins to exhaust our stores of emotional strength, one day we wake up and realize that we're no longer living in the world we used to be living in.

But, as much as I feel like I've come to understand about this disease, I still keep finding myself stuck in some surreal Catch-22 of dysfunction.

Let me try to illustrate my challenges by responding to a few pieces of this thread. Bear with me.

Your duty is to be the real you, going backwards will be harder once you have been forward.

Your wife's choice is to either like the real you or not. That is her choice not yours.

It is not your wife's choice to decide who the real you is.

Yes. Totally. Completely makes sense. The dilemma: So, your SO clearly demonstrates by their continued negative behaviors and the repeated cycle of devaluation that she, by any "normal" standard, indeed DOESN'T like you. But she refuses to leave the r-ship, claiming that "all couples have problems, and any r-ship can work if both parties decide to make it work." Right -- IF both parties are mentally healthy and emotionally stable! Which she isn't!

Which seems to be what Phoebe is saying here:

I was warned that it will get like this especially if I'm on the right track. There is no reason it has to be like this for being on the right track.

Cipher, until it becomes abundantly clear in your mind that your wife suffers from a serious emotional disorder, as serious a schizophrenia, your relationship will continue to wobble-- you will continue to wobble back and forth.

Acceptance is a beautiful thing.  Acceptance is the "right track" to standing on firmer ground, also believing and admitting that we do indeed play a humongous role in our relationships.

There is a very good reason why it has to 'be like this' for being on the right track.  A mental illness is involved.  A dysfunctional dynamic has been established.  How many years has it taken to get to this level of dysfunction?

By consistently implementing the tools available here and not getting bogged down in the rubble of our own minds (FOG), good things happen. And they happen faster than we can imagine, if we believe in the process, believe in ourselves and believe that it does get worse before it gets better... .a lot better. We cannot be afraid of that 'worse' part, or succumb to it.  That is part of our own dysfunction.

Validate validate and validate some more.  :)o not be afraid to actually speak to your wife in a language that both of you can relate to = truth.

Yes, this new behavior of yours is different.  Yep.  Validate her recognition of it.  And speak your truth.  Listen to what she has to say.  Respond to what she says, rather than reacting using tired out old coping mechanisms.

Again, yes -- totally get this. In my case, after a 2-mo split a year ago, being painted black, lots of confessions of epiphanies and now-i-see-what-i-was-doing-wrong and promises that things would be different, got back together. You know the drill... .things were terrific for about a month, then back to the old patterns -- dysregulate, fight, panic, sorrow, make-up, a few good days... .rinse, repeat. The dilemma: So, you get awareness, you get acceptance, you learn and apply the tools -- and still nothing improves, because the pwBPD continues to blame anyone and anything other than accepting that they have a serious mental illness that warrants them getting the help they deserve! Why can't they just be as good to themselves as they demand the rest of us to be?

Validate, validate, validate -- yes. But, at what point does it just become ridiculous? I mean, when the sky's blue, and someone keeps insisting that it's orange, I've learned that there's no harm, and often some good, in acknowledging that person's reality (provided their reality isn't harmful to them or others). "Sure, honey -- I can see where you'd think the sky is orange." But call me a stubborn a-hole -- I draw the line at being required to accept that reality as my own, when everything about it conflicts with my perceptions. And, as unfair as it may sound -- I'm not the one with the brain disorder!

But, how can I be so sure?... .-- I think, simply: Because I am. Ever notice that the only people who get all riled up about being referred to as "crazy" are people who are? How can I be sure? Because you can tell me I'm nuts to think the sky's blue, but I don't care. It's blue to me, it works for me, no one else has to agree with me -- your sky can be any color you want it to be. I'm fine.  

Briefcase -- another great point:

I'll let you in on a little secret too. There is a reason I don't use the hurricane analogy anymore (or volcanoes, vampires, etc.). Analogies comparing people with BPD to powerful natural (or supernatural) forces miss the mark in one important way -- people with BPD are not powerful at all. They are broken, hurting people with a serious disorder that causes them a lot of pain and suffering (and a lot of pain and suffering to those around them because of their maladaptive ways of coping).

So, that hurricane I thought I in was a lot more about my own issues. My desire to avoid conflict. My fear of my wife's emotions. My confusion about my role and my wife's role in things. These things, coming from inside me, are what made it feel like a hurricane. I gave my wife a lot of power of over me. Most of us here do (or did).

Yes, yes, yes. After the initial shock a year ago, and the hurt -- I found my way to compassion, to forgiveness. I can and do separate the person from the illness, even while accepting and realizing that they are not inseparable. I stuck with my T, and worked on myself. I dove into these boards, into my own research and reading. I take care of myself, I'm successful in my job, I have strong attachments to my friends and my family. The core person who is me has not changed at all since before I met my ex. I am blessed with a stable, steady, consistent basic core personality that hasn't gone anywhere. I always know who I am, and where I am. I have healthy boundaries, and I enforce them when I feel that they are being challenged -- after I consider whether the challenge is a real or perceived threat to my well-being/health/sanity.

The dilemma: When the dysregulation comes and the fighting begins, I try not to do it. I try to use the tools. I've tried to give my ex validation, space -- anything that she could put to productive use, emotionally. But she always refuses to accept responsibility, and ultimately everything disintegrates to "I will not accept that this is all my fault." Yeah, yeah -- it takes two to tango. But here's the deal, folks -- and have absolutely no reason to lie to you, her or anyone else -- I NEVER start the crap! Yes -- I respond to it. As I said, I tried to use the tools -- they didn't work. I tried to get off the phone -- that was characterized as rude. Left with no other option, I'd hang up on her. That was characterized as abuse. I told her that I KNOW I'm not abusive, and that, as her friend, if she thought she was in an abusive r-ship, she should get out of it immediately, and further that I had no interest in being in a r-ship with anyone who unfairly accuses me of such a horrible thing just to win arguments, or gain the emotional advantage. Yes, she'd infuriate me with this stuff, and yes, I'd be reduced to a screaming lunatic. But, really, what else can anyone do? I used to tell her -- I felt like I was just an innocent dog, happily minding my own business in the corner, and out of nowhere, she'd just start poking me with a sharp stick. And I'd wince. *poke* And I'd tell her it hurt. *poke*poke* And I'd ask her to stop. *poke*poke*poke!* And I'd bark. *poke!* I'd bark louder. I'd try to run away -- and she'd chase me down with her damned sharp stick, poking, poking, poking me! Really, it goes on and on and on and on -- I'm sick of talking about it!  

Bottomline in my case: Regardless of how much dissonance, how many fights, how often we had stupid, ridiculous surreal arguments, sometimes even about hypothetical things that hadn't even happened -- she refused to leave! She continually exhibited signs -- and expressed using the GD English language, which is intended, as far as I know, to permit those of us who are familiar with it to convey meaningful information to each other -- that she was absolutely unhappy with me as a partner. But she'd never leave. As best as I could ever understand it, she felt that since she never cheated on me, and often vowed that she never would (I think largely b/c she knew that it was a total deal-breaker for me, having been subjected to it in two previous r-ships), and never stole from me, and didn't have substance abuse problems, then all of the other crazy-making, emotionally destructive behaviors could be overlooked. She never understood what I meant when I tried to tell her that I understood that, and I didn't think she was a bad person, but I just am not wired to be able to deal with major r-ship turbulence every few days. It makes me unhappy, and I don't have to live that way. She refused to accept this as a reasonable opinion -- always concluding with a statement along the lines of "you simply don't understand how relationships work, and you have unrealistic expectations -- if you only understood how much I love you -- I guess you just don't love me as much as I love you, because I'd never leave you." And she wouldn't -- true to her word -- she seemed willing to accept, if not embrace, any level of discord as just part of being in a committed r-ship.

After 2 yrs, I finally realized that this wasn't something we were likely to get past -- it was going to keep happening, and we would continue to fight about it until we died, I imagine. So I detached. Right smack in the middle of a huge, very real in no way imaginary health crisis for her. I didn't choose to do this -- I didn't pick it, I didn't time it this way. I didn't leave her because she was sick, as she is now saying -- I left her because she was driving herself and everyone around her, including me, mad, she had a ridiculous fit, told me not to call her and I didn't. When she didn't try to reach out to me the next week -- one week before major surgery which I'd a month ago reserved a full week off so I could be there with her -- I didn't reach out to her, either. Possibly the world's greatest extinction burst -- I don't know. I truly think she had placed herself so high on the victim pedestal at that point that she expected me to beg her to be of service to her during her crisis. Now, despite both of us being NC for over 2 wks, she's been txtg, msgng and emailing me non-stop for the past 4 days -- alternating b/t apologizing and begging me to talk to her and visit her (she was re-admitted for some post-surgery complications), to accusing me of having cheated on her the entire time we were together, threatening to sue me for the return of "all those stupid presents I gave you," and harassing me about whether she needs to be tested for STDs... .I mean, completely over-the-top cycling, and I wish the hospital would just wake up and order a psych consult. The only way I'm not crushed is that she basically did the same exact thing a year ago when we split -- the whole, sad, eerie revision of facts and fabrication of scenarios that would be far-fetched in any situation. But, yeah -- even though I know it's the disease talking, it still hurts to hear the words.

I left because I had to. Because life is short, and I prefer not to be insane during my brief time on this planet.

I deserve to be happy. So does she, with or without me.

God, I despise this disease.  :'( :'( :'(

Thanks all for listening.

[eyvindr]

I was reading a great thread that Cipher13 started on the "Staying" board, and I was compelled to respond to some good points being shared there and I thought this might make a good Personal Inventory topic, so here goes.  I'hoping to make some more progress in this area. 

So, here's the post. With your help, I hope to get to the bottom of whatever issues I have which keep landing me in romantic r-ships with emotionally fragile and volatile people. Bring on the wisdom!

As I've learned about BPD and how the illness presents within the confines of otherwise positive r-ships, I've been able to overcome a lot (not all) of the confusion that most of experience as it begins to dawn on us that something isn't just not right, but very wrong. It's like, as the emotional roller coaster begins to exhaust our stores of emotional strength, one day we wake up and realize that we're no longer living in the world we used to be living in.

But, as much as I feel like I've come to understand about this disease, I still keep finding myself stuck in some surreal Catch-22 of dysfunction.

Let me try to illustrate my challenges by responding to a few pieces of this thread. Bear with me.

Your duty is to be the real you, going backwards will be harder once you have been forward.

Your wife's choice is to either like the real you or not. That is her choice not yours.

It is not your wife's choice to decide who the real you is.

Yes. Totally. Completely makes sense. The dilemma: So, your SO clearly demonstrates by their continued negative behaviors and the repeated cycle of devaluation that she, by any "normal" standard, indeed DOESN'T like you. But she refuses to leave the r-ship, claiming that "all couples have problems, and any r-ship can work if both parties decide to make it work." Right -- IF both parties are mentally healthy and emotionally stable! Which she isn't!

Which seems to be what Phoebe is saying here:

I was warned that it will get like this especially if I'm on the right track. There is no reason it has to be like this for being on the right track.

Cipher, until it becomes abundantly clear in your mind that your wife suffers from a serious emotional disorder, as serious a schizophrenia, your relationship will continue to wobble-- you will continue to wobble back and forth.

Acceptance is a beautiful thing.  Acceptance is the "right track" to standing on firmer ground, also believing and admitting that we do indeed play a humongous role in our relationships.

There is a very good reason why it has to 'be like this' for being on the right track.  A mental illness is involved.  A dysfunctional dynamic has been established.  How many years has it taken to get to this level of dysfunction?

By consistently implementing the tools available here and not getting bogged down in the rubble of our own minds (FOG), good things happen. And they happen faster than we can imagine, if we believe in the process, believe in ourselves and believe that it does get worse before it gets better... .a lot better. We cannot be afraid of that 'worse' part, or succumb to it.  That is part of our own dysfunction.

Validate validate and validate some more.  :)o not be afraid to actually speak to your wife in a language that both of you can relate to = truth.

Yes, this new behavior of yours is different.  Yep.  Validate her recognition of it.  And speak your truth.  Listen to what she has to say.  Respond to what she says, rather than reacting using tired out old coping mechanisms.

Again, yes -- totally get this. In my case, after a 2-mo split a year ago, being painted black, lots of confessions of epiphanies and now-i-see-what-i-was-doing-wrong and promises that things would be different, got back together. You know the drill... .things were terrific for about a month, then back to the old patterns -- dysregulate, fight, panic, sorrow, make-up, a few good days... .rinse, repeat. The dilemma: So, you get awareness, you get acceptance, you learn and apply the tools -- and still nothing improves, because the pwBPD continues to blame anyone and anything other than accepting that they have a serious mental illness that warrants them getting the help they deserve! Why can't they just be as good to themselves as they demand the rest of us to be?

Validate, validate, validate -- yes. But, at what point does it just become ridiculous? I mean, when the sky's blue, and someone keeps insisting that it's orange, I've learned that there's no harm, and often some good, in acknowledging that person's reality (provided their reality isn't harmful to them or others). "Sure, honey -- I can see where you'd think the sky is orange." But call me a stubborn a-hole -- I draw the line at being required to accept that reality as my own, when everything about it conflicts with my perceptions. And, as unfair as it may sound -- I'm not the one with the brain disorder!

But, how can I be so sure?... .-- I think, simply: Because I am. Ever notice that the only people who get all riled up about being referred to as "crazy" are people who are? How can I be sure? Because you can tell me I'm nuts to think the sky's blue, but I don't care. It's blue to me, it works for me, no one else has to agree with me -- your sky can be any color you want it to be. I'm fine.  

Briefcase -- another great point:

I'll let you in on a little secret too. There is a reason I don't use the hurricane analogy anymore (or volcanoes, vampires, etc.). Analogies comparing people with BPD to powerful natural (or supernatural) forces miss the mark in one important way -- people with BPD are not powerful at all. They are broken, hurting people with a serious disorder that causes them a lot of pain and suffering (and a lot of pain and suffering to those around them because of their maladaptive ways of coping).

So, that hurricane I thought I in was a lot more about my own issues. My desire to avoid conflict. My fear of my wife's emotions. My confusion about my role and my wife's role in things. These things, coming from inside me, are what made it feel like a hurricane. I gave my wife a lot of power of over me. Most of us here do (or did).

Yes, yes, yes. After the initial shock a year ago, and the hurt -- I found my way to compassion, to forgiveness. I can and do separate the person from the illness, even while accepting and realizing that they are not inseparable. I stuck with my T, and worked on myself. I dove into these boards, into my own research and reading. I take care of myself, I'm successful in my job, I have strong attachments to my friends and my family. The core person who is me has not changed at all since before I met my ex. I am blessed with a stable, steady, consistent basic core personality that hasn't gone anywhere. I always know who I am, and where I am. I have healthy boundaries, and I enforce them when I feel that they are being challenged -- after I consider whether the challenge is a real or perceived threat to my well-being/health/sanity.

The dilemma: When the dysregulation comes and the fighting begins, I try not to do it. I try to use the tools. I've tried to give my ex validation, space -- anything that she could put to productive use, emotionally. But she always refuses to accept responsibility, and ultimately everything disintegrates to "I will not accept that this is all my fault." Yeah, yeah -- it takes two to tango. But here's the deal, folks -- and have absolutely no reason to lie to you, her or anyone else -- I NEVER start the crap! Yes -- I respond to it. As I said, I tried to use the tools -- they didn't work. I tried to get off the phone -- that was characterized as rude. Left with no other option, I'd hang up on her. That was characterized as abuse. I told her that I KNOW I'm not abusive, and that, as her friend, if she thought she was in an abusive r-ship, she should get out of it immediately, and further that I had no interest in being in a r-ship with anyone who unfairly accuses me of such a horrible thing just to win arguments, or gain the emotional advantage. Yes, she'd infuriate me with this stuff, and yes, I'd be reduced to a screaming lunatic. But, really, what else can anyone do? I used to tell her -- I felt like I was just an innocent dog, happily minding my own business in the corner, and out of nowhere, she'd just start poking me with a sharp stick. And I'd wince. *poke* And I'd tell her it hurt. *poke*poke* And I'd ask her to stop. *poke*poke*poke!* And I'd bark. *poke!* I'd bark louder. I'd try to run away -- and she'd chase me down with her damned sharp stick, poking, poking, poking me! Really, it goes on and on and on and on -- I'm sick of talking about it!  

Bottomline in my case: Regardless of how much dissonance, how many fights, how often we had stupid, ridiculous surreal arguments, sometimes even about hypothetical things that hadn't even happened -- she refused to leave! She continually exhibited signs -- and expressed using the GD English language, which is intended, as far as I know, to permit those of us who are familiar with it to convey meaningful information to each other -- that she was absolutely unhappy with me as a partner. But she'd never leave. As best as I could ever understand it, she felt that since she never cheated on me, and often vowed that she never would (I think largely b/c she knew that it was a total deal-breaker for me, having been subjected to it in two previous r-ships), and never stole from me, and didn't have substance abuse problems, then all of the other crazy-making, emotionally destructive behaviors could be overlooked. She never understood what I meant when I tried to tell her that I understood that, and I didn't think she was a bad person, but I just am not wired to be able to deal with major r-ship turbulence every few days. It makes me unhappy, and I don't have to live that way. She refused to accept this as a reasonable opinion -- always concluding with a statement along the lines of "you simply don't understand how relationships work, and you have unrealistic expectations -- if you only understood how much I love you -- I guess you just don't love me as much as I love you, because I'd never leave you." And she wouldn't -- true to her word -- she seemed willing to accept, if not embrace, any level of discord as just part of being in a committed r-ship.

After 2 yrs, I finally realized that this wasn't something we were likely to get past -- it was going to keep happening, and we would continue to fight about it until we died, I imagine. So I detached. Right smack in the middle of a huge, very real in no way imaginary health crisis for her. I didn't choose to do this -- I didn't pick it, I didn't time it this way. I didn't leave her because she was sick, as she is now saying -- I left her because she was driving herself and everyone around her, including me, mad, she had a ridiculous fit, told me not to call her and I didn't. When she didn't try to reach out to me the next week -- one week before major surgery which I'd a month ago reserved a full week off so I could be there with her -- I didn't reach out to her, either. Possibly the world's greatest extinction burst -- I don't know. I truly think she had placed herself so high on the victim pedestal at that point that she expected me to beg her to be of service to her during her crisis. Now, despite both of us being NC for over 2 wks, she's been txtg, msgng and emailing me non-stop for the past 4 days -- alternating b/t apologizing and begging me to talk to her and visit her (she was re-admitted for some post-surgery complications), to accusing me of having cheated on her the entire time we were together, threatening to sue me for the return of "all those stupid presents I gave you," and harassing me about whether she needs to be tested for STDs... .I mean, completely over-the-top cycling, and I wish the hospital would just wake up and order a psych consult. The only way I'm not crushed is that she basically did the same exact thing a year ago when we split -- the whole, sad, eerie revision of facts and fabrication of scenarios that would be far-fetched in any situation. But, yeah -- even though I know it's the disease talking, it still hurts to hear the words.

I left because I had to. Because life is short, and I prefer not to be insane during my brief time on this planet.

I deserve to be happy. So does she, with or without me.

God, I despise this disease.  :'( :'( :'(

Thanks all for listening.

[Grey Kitty]

eyvindr, it sounds like you are getting there. I want to draw your attention to two things you wrote in this. Notice, I picked orange as highlighting color

Validate, validate, validate -- yes. But, at what point does it just become ridiculous? I mean, when the sky's blue, and someone keeps insisting that it's orange, I've learned that there's no harm, and often some good, in acknowledging that person's reality (provided their reality isn't harmful to them or others). "Sure, honey -- I can see where you'd think the sky is orange." But call me a stubborn a-hole -- I draw the line at being required to accept that reality as my own, when everything about it conflicts with my perceptions. And, as unfair as it may sound -- I'm not the one with the brain disorder!

The dilemma: When the dysregulation comes and the fighting begins, I try not to do it. I try to use the tools. I've tried to give my ex validation, space -- anything that she could put to productive use, emotionally. But she always refuses to accept responsibility, and ultimately everything disintegrates to "I will not accept that this is all my fault." Yeah, yeah -- it takes two to tango. But here's the deal, folks -- and have absolutely no reason to lie to you, her or anyone else -- I NEVER start the crap! Yes -- I respond to it. As I said, I tried to use the tools -- they didn't work. I tried to get off the phone -- that was characterized as rude. Left with no other option, I'd hang up on her. That was characterized as abuse. I told her that I KNOW I'm not abusive, and that, as her friend, if she thought she was in an abusive r-ship, she should get out of it immediately, and further that I had no interest in being in a r-ship with anyone who unfairly accuses me of such a horrible thing just to win arguments, or gain the emotional advantage.

Validation is showing that you understand her view, and even why she holds it. Validation is not agreeing with it. You do not have to invalidate your own experience to validate somebody else's experience.

What you don't have to do is get her to validate your experience. She probably cannot do this. You don't need to make her do it, and if you try you'll just make things worse for both of you! If you know that you are getting out of an abusive conversation to protect yourself, you don't have to convince her of this. She may know it, she may figure it out. She may not. Trying to get her to accept why you are hanging up or changing the subject is like convincing her that the sky is blue. She sees orange. You don't need to convince her. Getting her to accept responsibility is another losing proposition. All you can do is not let her do it to you any more.

I found that the worst FOG I had was in the form of putting motivations and purposes onto my actions and thoughts that weren't there. Simply refusing to accept them was one of the best sanity-preserving techniques I found.

[toomanyeggshells]

I found that the worst FOG I had was in the form of putting motivations and purposes onto my actions and thoughts that weren't there. Simply refusing to accept them was one of the best sanity-preserving techniques I found.

Can you expand on this a little, Grey Kitty?  I don't quite understand what you mean. 

[Grey Kitty]

An example in this thread was the poster being told that he was abusive because he hung up (to get out of an abusive phone call)

Another example: My wife would tell me that I was doing something because I found her unattractive, and would leave her for somebody else.

Note that she is telling me WHY I'm doing something, based on what she KNOWS of MY mental state.

In my darkest days I was starting to wonder if I was nuts, my personal reality and thoughts were wrong, and what she was telling me was actually true. Fortunately I discovered these forums before I really came to believe that.

I came to understand that she may believe this... .but it isn't my reality, and I don't have to believe it. Nor do I have to convince her that it is wrong in order to live in my own reality.

[eyvindr]

Thanks for the feedback, Grey - appreciate your insights.

eyvindr, it sounds like you are getting there... .

... .wish it felt like it on this end.

Validation is showing that you understand her view, and even why she holds it. Validation is not agreeing with it. You do not have to invalidate your own experience to validate somebody else's experience.

What you don't have to do is get her to validate your experience. She probably cannot do this. You don't need to make her do it, and if you try you'll just make things worse for both of you! If you know that you are getting out of an abusive conversation to protect yourself, you don't have to convince her of this. She may know it, she may figure it out. She may not. Trying to get her to accept why you are hanging up or changing the subject is like convincing her that the sky is blue. She sees orange. You don't need to convince her. Getting her to accept responsibility is another losing proposition. All you can do is not let her do it to you any more.

Yep -- I do understand this. But it doesn't keep the confusion from bubbling up again. I realize that it makes no sense whatsoever -- and never will -- to re-listen to the tapes of old arguments when they play in my head, and to rephrase my responses, each time more precisely worded so as to be more clear, more easily understood -- all of that is totally irrelevant.

In the past week, after a few weeks of no contact, she has sent me upwards of eleven THOUSAND words, and attempted to call me dozens of times. The closest I've come to ANY kind of response was to send her via the mail a box of some things she'd left behind that seemed particularly keen on needing -- otherwise, not a single word has been shared. The ONLY think that has kept me from responding has been what I went through with her the last time -- how, once I finally broke down and responded, she took it as an opportunity to get even more vicious.

But, back to my sh!t. It's pretty clear that I fall into the caretaker role -- the information presented in the article that's been circulating around here, finally helped me understand the difference between being a caretaker and being codependent. From past introspection, I've felt that partly why I'm attracted to pwBPD is b/c of all of the attention they're willing to give, during the idealization phase. I'm the oldest of 8 kids, and I likely only got the standard level of attention from my mom for the first 2-3 yrs of my life -- not out of any sort of neglect or anything -- just that mom was always consumed with mothering! But this always felt a little short of an answer for me, to myself, because I'm not someone who is emotionally needy at all. If anything, I err on the other extreme -- I'm pretty fiercely independent. I take care of myself, I raised my son mostly on my own, I'm comfortable in my own skin, and absolutely do NOT feel the need to be in a r-ship to "complete" myself. So, I never really felt it was the whole story.

Lately, I'm thinking it may be more of a comfort level thing, scary as that is for me to consider. From a pretty young age, I was expected to help take care of my younger sibs. Again, nothing outrageous here -- just, as the oldest, I was always taught that I was supposed to "set and example" and be "responsible" for the younger kids. I was pretty comfortable in the role, though I remember as I got older beginning to feel that it was kind of a pain in the ass, simply because I'd rather be doing my own stuff than having to make sure that one little one or another didn't set themselves on fire. But, fast-forward to adulthood, and I can see in almost all of my romantic r-ships -- and certainly ALL of the serious, long-term r-ships -- I quickly fell back into this care-taking role. I think I was a little blindsided initially, because, as a kid, the care-taking was almost 100% practical -- the job duties involved keeping the kids safety and correcting behavior, not serving as a primary source of emotional support. And that role of nurturer, of being made to feel like an anchor, a rock -- it's attractive. It appeals to me, still -- though I now know about the dark side.

What's weird and now horribly frustrating to me is that I know that this is not a role I want to be cast in. Ask me what I want in a partner, and I can very clearly tell you that I want a true partner, an equal, someone I admire, someone I know I can rely on as much as they can rely on me, but who isn't continually relying on me for their own happiness and emotional support. I don't want to take care of anyone unless they can already take care of themselves. I'm not looking for additional liabilities, I'm looking for someone who can be as independent as I am, and be ok with it, and not be threatened by it -- but still be able to connect on a direct, intimate, open, consistent level. I'm NOT looking for someone with the emotional maturity of a child.

So, the women I've consistently been attracted to initially fit that bill. They've ALL presented themselves as being happy, happily single but open to a relationship, decent people, independent, working, together, relatively free of baggage -- awesome. So I go for it. And they respond. And everything's terrific, until... .

Yeah -- you know the rest.

What gives? Aside from TISA (the Take It Slow Approach -- I just made this up -- feel free to use!), I don't know how else to separate the healthy from the unhealthy.

Problem with TISA, for me, has been that, by the time all of the  's are up and waving, I've already fallen for the poor souls.

So, how do I know whether these people are the wrong ones without investing too much time and energy into the r-ship up front?

[123Phoebe]

Hi eyvindr 

I'm curious to know what you're like during the honeymoon stage of a new relationship? 

The reason I ask is because I realized I've been very lovey-dovey, available whenever and interested in anything (boundary-less?), up up up almost manic happy... .  It's like I'm me on steroids!  The real me is much more reserved.  I still carry those attributes but not to such an extreme.  If someone fell for the honeymoon stage me and wanted that girl who is ON, they'd be pretty bummed out once we settled into the real world

Have you thought about the vibes you give off in the beginning compared to what you're really like?  I think we all put our best foot forward, to what degree though? 

If we look at someone else in comparison, can the same be said for them?  And can we deal with the difference?  The real them? 

Knowing ourselves intimately helps...   It's helped me to know what lengths I'll allot for some leeway... .

[eyvindr]

Hi Phoebe --

Thanks for listening.

I have thought about that. Because I've been accused of "not being as excited as you used to be when we first started dating." If there's one way to take the wind right out of my sails, it's to be r-shipping merrily along, only to hear this the first time:

":)o I look cute? You always used to tell me how nice I looked."

Or: 

"We never seem to have anything to talk about anymore. We used to talk on the phone for hours when we first met."

Or:

"You don't seem excited to see me."

I admit it -- once we get beyond the honeymoon/infatuation phase, I probably do lose some of that initial gaga I-can't-stop-touching/looking-at-you stuff. I'm afraid, however, that it's quite normal. What isn't normal would be to go from OMG-I-can't-stand-to-go-ten-minutes-without-kissing-your-face to I-can't-stand-being-around-you-for-more-than-ten-minutes. Which I don't do.

That said -- I very much do struggle with people who set what they call "normal" expectations, and then vehemently try to enforce them when they're anything but normal. I like a healthy level of spontaneity in life, and in r-ships. I don't mean that I need to play every second by ear -- I need my routines as much as the next person -- but if you ask me every 2 hours if I still love you, it doesn't leave me with much of an opportunity to just tell you how I feel about you.

If you spend almost every minute in between time together whining about how much you miss me, as an opening to scold me for how "normal" people who "are in love like us" can't wait to be together, then I probably am *not* going to be as excited to see you as I otherwise would be had you, oh, I dunno, let me miss you a little.

If you're always fishing for compliments, I don't really have a chance to tell you how great I think you look. I used to get so frustrated by this -- before I could get a word in, my ex would be downloading some frustration-of-the-day on me, and I'd be trying to actively listen to her and be supportive, and then I'd get blindsided with something like, "You didn't even tell me you liked my shoes. You know, I bought these just to look good for you." Arrrrrrrgh!

And how much talking really can anyone do? Yes, when you've just met someone, you've got a lot of things to learn -- lots to discuss, lots of ground to cover before you can determine what potential is for a new r-ship. And if every day you're spending in continual contact via email and txt msgs (b/c "that's what normal people who are in love but who don't live together do", plus a good hour on the phone each night -- well, you don't have much to talk about when you finally get together. Questions like, "How was your day, honey?" seem pretty irrelevant when you've heard a minute-by-minute breakdown already as the day progressed.

So, yeah -- I "change," in that I settle down a little. I get comfortable. Aren't we supposed to be able to relax into the r-ship? Not much you can do if the person you're with expects you to never leave the infatuation phase -- it's kind of annoying!

[Grey Kitty]

eyvindr, it sounds like you are getting there... .

... .wish it felt like it on this end.

I was speaking to how you seemed to have a realistic view of the problems you are facing. Until you know the questions/problems you won't find the answers/solutions. It looks like progress, and I can easily see why it wouldn't feel that good to you.

But, back to my sh!t. It's pretty clear that I fall into the caretaker role -- the information presented in the article that's been circulating around here, finally helped me understand the difference between being a caretaker and being codependent. From past introspection, I've felt that partly why I'm attracted to pwBPD is b/c of all of the attention they're willing to give, during the idealization phase.

... .

Lately, I'm thinking it may be more of a comfort level thing, scary as that is for me to consider. From a pretty young age, I was expected to help take care of my younger sibs. Again, nothing outrageous here -- just, as the oldest, I was always taught that I was supposed to "set and example" and be "responsible" for the younger kids. I was pretty comfortable in the role, though I remember as I got older beginning to feel that it was kind of a pain in the ass, simply because I'd rather be doing my own stuff than having to make sure that one little one or another didn't set themselves on fire. But, fast-forward to adulthood, and I can see in almost all of my romantic r-ships -- and certainly ALL of the serious, long-term r-ships -- I quickly fell back into this care-taking role. I think I was a little blindsided initially, because, as a kid, the care-taking was almost 100% practical -- the job duties involved keeping the kids safety and correcting behavior, not serving as a primary source of emotional support. And that role of nurturer, of being made to feel like an anchor, a rock -- it's attractive. It appeals to me, still -- though I now know about the dark side.

What's weird and now horribly frustrating to me is that I know that this is not a role I want to be cast in.

That sounds like the classic result of growing up: As a child, certain tools/roles are right for you or even required of you, and are what you need in order to survive to adulthood. Despite this, they may not serve you well as an adult. Then you need to really think about them and understand them, so you can move on and try something that will fit your needs now.

Here's a question about your history of being attracted to women who invite you into that caretaker role:

If I get your history correctly, you are here on bpdfamily.com because of a recent exBPDgf, and know how unhealthy that r/s was for you. Prior to this realization, did you notice how unhealthy your other r/s were? Or do you only see that pattern looking back now?

[eyvindr]

Thanks for reading and responding, Grey Kitty.

If I get your history correctly, you are here on bpdfamily.com because of a recent exBPDgf, and know how unhealthy that r/s was for you. Prior to this realization, did you notice how unhealthy your other r/s were? Or do you only see that pattern looking back now?

Oh, yeah -- my first experience with BPD was with my ex-wife, who as far as I know was uBPD. She exhibited ALL of the classic and typical symptoms -- but I was very naive about r-ships when I met her and pretty much ignored all the  's, or simply accepted her version of reality without question, when it came to details that didn't make sense. Like, how I met here when she was working as an admin asst for an arts group -- though she had one class left to be eligible for a JD. Turned out she never even went to college -- later, after we were married, she decided that she wanted to go to school to become a phlebotomist, and she mysteriously couldn't get her transcripts and "had" to re-take the GED... .A month after we were married, we were pregnant -- though she was diligently taking the pill. A few months after our son was born, she started an affair with an intern in the hospital she was working in as an orderly. Major negative wake-up call for this boy, I tell ya. But, I accepted my role in it -- I was naive, and pretty stupid about a lot of things. Anyway, we separated -- she had me believing the purpose of the separation was so we could work out our issues and get back together, but it never happened -- and six months later I filed for divorce. When she got the papers, I still remember her calling me, and telling me over the phone, in tears, "I never wanted this to happen." Really. (For context, that was about 20 yrs ago.)

Prior to the separation, I started to learn about personality disorders, and BPD fit her to a tee. Also began realizing that I had some pretty serious codependent traits, and vowed to myself to be aware of this so as not to make the same mistake again.

More or less, I've done ok. I've had a few serious r-ships since my divorce. First big love post-divorce I was with a survivor of sexual abuse, so I attributed a lot of the issues we had -- insecurities, pushing for commitment, turbulent r-ships with her FOO and friends -- to PTSD, though at times I thought she probably was bipolar, with maybe some narcissistic traits, looking back. But I refused to move in with her, and after 2 yrs, one weekend when we were about to have the same argument we'd already had 50 times, I walked away. I remember thinking clearly that the only way I'd ever speak to her again was if she sent me a thorough apology for all of the needless negative emotional over-reactions she had, and took accountability for her role in them, vs blaming me as the cause for everything.

Next big serious r-ship was with a woman 14 yrs younger than me -- who I really didn't ever expect to land in a serious r-ship with, to be honest. Largely because she was so much younger than me! -- I was 35 and she'd just turned 21 at the time -- it just seemed absurd to me that anyone her age would be seriously considering a future with someone so much older than her. But she was bright, and fun, and attractive, and seemed to have a good albeit broken family -- before I knew it, she was pretty much staying at my place every night, and after a few months she moved in. Turned out she too was a survivor -- and pretty definitely bipolar, with some intense OCD stuff going on, too. But she knew it, and on and off would see a T, and get a prescription and take it mostly regularly. We had our problems, but we always worked through things, and I thought that, if we got engaged, she'd finally stop worrying about how serious I was about our r-ship -- even though we'd been together for over 4 yrs, and had moved to another state together. I gave her a ring, and no sooner than 2 months later discovered she was having some kind of affair with a semi-mutual colleague (we worked in the same field). So, I broke of our engagement and we split up, then decided to work on things while living apart, eventually she lost her job, I let her move back in, and it just didn't work. Found myself supporting her while she messed around with online r-ships instead of looking for a new job. One night, her phone rang while she was taking a nap, and I picked it up to see if it was an important call, and it was a bunch of sexy txt msgs -- I called her on it, and she basically confessed. Told her, look -- we've been through this before, we don't need to make this a big hairy mess, just figure out what you need to do to move out by  the end of the month. And that was that.

So, yes -- I recognize that my past r-ships have all had their share of dysfunction, too. And I accept the role that I played in both landing in them and contributing to the dynamic. But -- this last one -- first, I was totally fooled -- and that's not my fault. But, once I started seeing the  's, WHY did I stick around? I mean, aside from the obvious -- I thought we'd be able to work through everything.

[Grey Kitty]

Prior to the separation, I started to learn about personality disorders, and BPD fit her to a tee. Also began realizing that I had some pretty serious codependent traits, and vowed to myself to be aware of this so as not to make the same mistake again.

More or less, I've done ok.

Hmmm... .OK in some ways, but perhaps not so good in others. It sounds like you have kept yourself from getting too deep in your post-marriage r/s with variously disordered women, and it sounds like you have not chosen emotionally healthy partners.

Do you have any idea why such women attract you?

[eyvindr]

Thanks for keeping this going, Grey.

Why am I attracted to these women? Well, to go back to what I said about my childhood -- as the oldest of 8 kids, I can't imagine I ever got what would be considered a "standard" degree of attention from my mom beyond the age of 2 or 3 again, not due to any kind of neglect on my mother's part, just that she was busy with the youngsters. So, I began to think that perhaps on some unconscious level, I respond to women who give me all of their attention -- ? maybe to compensate for the attention I didn't get from my mom when I was a kid -- ?

But, as I wrote before -- that hypothesis sounds great on paper, but it doesn't really resonate to me inside. So I've thought more about it. And that brought me to the caretaking role that I was cast into as a young kid, as a watcher of even younger kids. While I didn't choose the role, and actually kind of balk at it, consciously, I can see where it might be possible that I keep assuming the role as an adult, because it simply is what I've been conditioned to expect out of life -- ? I don't look for it, I don't seek it out -- in fact, I purposely look for the opposite! But it seems that I get sucked into it, and then I've had difficulty removing myself from it, out of some sense of moral obligation... .as in, you don't bail on people you love when things get difficult.

It's something I've tried to work on with 2 therapists so far. We don't ever seem to get anywhere. The other common thread between my past r-ships is that the women have all been attractive, outgoing (initially), funny, bright (turns out to be superficially so, really) and to have somewhat addictive personalities (be it alcohol, nicotine, food or some unusual variety of prescription meds -- like over-the-counter pain meds, or allergy stuff).

Honestly, this piece of me is a complete dilemma to me still.

[eeyore]

We all want to feel loved.  I think in the infatuation stage we feel loved.  That's where we get stuck.  We have false hope of that feeling we had will be around forever.  Problem is it is false.  Therefore there should be NO hope. 

I would imagine it's like a heroine high that you get the first time.  Then after while you might get high it's never like the first.  (From reading not from personal experience.)  So you keep trying and hoping.

[Grey Kitty]

You may have historical/FOO reasons for this... .you may not. If that feels like a square peg aimed at a round hole, no need to go looking for a bigger hammer Here are a few more questions in another direction:

In the initial attraction, do you pick these women and pursue them, or do they pick you and pursue you? Or has it gone both ways?

You mention them being attractive... .which is in the eye of the beholder, but there is a normal cultural definition there as well. Do they look models that walked out of a fashion magazine? Or a bit more "normal" but still attractive? (The obvious alternative of going for women you find unattractive would just be bizarre... .I wouldn't suggest that!)

You mention addictive behaviors. I'm guessing this is something that shows up later (after you're hooked) rather than initially. Can you think of any cues to this that grab you?

You mention outgoing. I can't think of any questions here... .that seems like a reasonable preference. Are you more introverted?

[eyvindr]

Thanks again, Grey -- I appreciate this.

In the initial attraction, do you pick these women and pursue them, or do they pick you and pursue you? Or has it gone both ways?

It's gone both ways. In my earlier r-ships, as I did the autopsy on the break-up, I realized I'd permitted myself to be drawn into the r-ships. Kind of a situation of being available, being pursued, enjoying being wanted, having fun and just falling into the r-ship. So, I made a conscious decision to be more aware, and to "pick" people. I still seem to pick the wrong ones!

In my most recent r-ship, I responded to a profile on a dating site. Then, before we actually met in real time, we took turns emailing each other -- not much, really -- just a few times over a 6-mo period, before we actually met. Once we met, I definitely did the pursuing -- because I liked her, enjoyed our time together, and couldn't quite read what she was looking for, as in friendship, or more. But, once we became intimate, she was all consuming. I didn't have to do anything -- if anything, getting a minute to myself was a struggle.

You mention them being attractive... .which is in the eye of the beholder, but there is a normal cultural definition there as well. Do they look like models that walked out of a fashion magazine? Or a bit more "normal" but still attractive? (The obvious alternative of going for women you find unattractive would just be bizarre... .I wouldn't suggest that!)

Definitely more normal -- some would even say average. But all of them had their beautiful points -- be it their eyes, or their smiles, their voices. All of them had gorgeous brains, though. That's the clincher for me. Gorgeous, that is, until they dysregulated... .

You mention addictive behaviors. I'm guessing this is something that shows up later (after you're hooked) rather than initially. Can you think of any cues to this that grab you?

Not initially -- which is where most of my residual anger lives. ALL of them presented themselves as healthy, happy, independent, women who were NOT looking for "some guy to take care of me -- no WAY!" But, once they felt they had me locked in, they began to show their true colors -- drinking too much or too often, smoking too often, binging on candy or various junk-type food, etc. When I tried to discuss it with them, any of them -- they all to a head became immediately defensive.

You mention outgoing. I can't think of any questions here... .that seems like a reasonable preference. Are you more introverted?

I think my basic nature is more introverted than extroverted. I am very comfortable being alone, and have that need for "me time" to "recharge my batteries" that we hear introverts talk about. I was a pretty painfully shy kid who didn't really come into my own, in terms of being mostly comfortable expressing my personality around people I wasn't close to until I was in college, and I was still fairly shy then, if I wasn't with a a group of friends. I still fight it sometimes, but it's become much more easy to go into situations alone -- I'm older now, I've worked on it, and got a lot of practice through my career. I really enjoy people, and social situations -- particularly when it's a mix of both people I know well and new people -- I like to make friends, and do so pretty easily, but I'm pretty selective about who I spend my quality time with. That said, at the end of the day, I like peace and quiet, and if I have a few days or a weekend chock full of socializing, or interacting on a work level, I definitely look forward to a couple nights of downtime.

I can see how my past SO's could at times feel confused, once the r-ship had moved beyond the initial getting-to-know-each-other phase, and we'd begun to settle in. Ironically, that's a really great point in the r-ship, for me -- when I begin to feel truly comfortable, and that neither of us is trying to prove anything -- enough time has gone by that we've learned what we really like about each other, while we've seen a few cracks, but learned that they're acceptable. Where my SO's have expressed "confusion" or "concern" is in that whole "you don't seem excited to see me like you used to" area. I see what they mean, in that I've "calmed down" a little, as part of feeling more comfortable, but it doesn't justify that they seem to think we need to stay in the infatuation stage indefinitely. It's just not realistic.

Also, I'm never defensive about it -- always glad to talk about it, and to explain how I'm wired. Up to them if it works or doesn't work for them, just as it's up to me whether their quirks are too much to handle for me. 

[Grey Kitty]

Well of those three characteristics you commonly pick, only one of them seems unhealthy

And it is the last one for you to notice. The obvious suggestion is to spend more time dating (possibly dating more than one woman) so that you notice the addictive (or PD) characteristics before you get too involved. Take things more slowly.

The other possibility that comes to mind is to spend some time enjoying being single while you ponder on it.

Maybe somebody else has better ideas.

[eeyore]

The obvious suggestion is to spend more time dating (possibly dating more than one woman) so that you notice the addictive (or PD) characteristics before you get too involved. Take things more slowly.

The other possibility that comes to mind is to spend some time enjoying being single while you ponder on it.

Most put their best foot forward while dating.  I believe people with a more serious issues do know they have a problem (that they don't define and/or admit) and therefore can hide their problems for a long time if you aren't looking at red flags. 

For me I'm no longer a proponent of taking things more slowly.  I feel I've done this historically and wasted a lot of time. While I have only recently changed my opinion on this I also can't say I'm successful yet.  It's more a willingness to try something different because what I have been doing hasn't worked for me yet.

I want to define what my red flags would be better.  My issues have really revolved around not having boundaries for myself.  The flags may start out as yellow and become red.   Sometimes I wouldn't put a color on the flag because I had not decided if the issue required a boundary. When I see the red flags I want to be able to have clear paths forward.  Meaning if the red flag is RED then that is the time to leave gracefully rather than keeping false hope that the flag will miraculously go away or change color to green for go.  So for me it isn't a matter of going slow it's a matter of keeping my boundaries. 

Can you define some boundaries for your RED flags?  I accept that there is some degree of feeling invested that I must do to find out if there are red flags.  I therefore have to be willing to take my medicine of having to enforce my boundaries. 

Here's an attempt to start a list of the flags and what the boundary would be.  Not sure if this is helpful to you but it's where this thread has taken me in thought.  Thank you for putting it out there as I might not have thought this hard about it. 

1.  Drinking/substance abuse

A person who is a big drinker would not be good for me because I only socially drink.  Long term I know that a drinking lifestyle would not be conducive for a long term relationship for me.  A recovering alcoholic would be a red flag for me.   My boundary as soon as I found out the person was a recovering alcoholic would be _____hit.

2.  Mental Illness

3.  Sexual incompatibility

4.  Financial incompatibility

5.  Flirting with others/cheating/third parties

6.  Neglect (if I feel you neglect your child or animal you will most likely neglect me)

7.  Excessive baggage, this is the hard one to define.