Delusional conversations?

[aglaophone]

Stamp posted a question on memory loss, and I have a question that's similar but a bit different.

I have an uBPDgf and I insisted we see a therapist after a recent incident. She had asked me if I had feelings for an exGF because I'd mentioned the exGF in a conversation (she asked repeatedly, and then said I should have given her more or better assurances). Later that night, she insisted she'd never asked, but that I'd blurted out "I don't have feelings for exGF." unprovoked. That freaked me out after several previous, so I insisted on therapy. On the way home from the first session we got in a fight and she said that during the therapy session she had asked if I thought the relationship was good more than 95% of the time, and she said I had responded no. This conversation never remotely happened, but it was now the subject of a fight about why I was even staying in the relationship.

We have another session tonight and the thing that really concerns me is that the therapist is playing these incidents down. The therapist used an example where she sometimes gets words mixed up. I don't think that's remotely the same thing. Am I taking crazy pills here? Am I expecting too much? This isn't supposed to happen in general, right?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Wrongturn1]

What you describe is relatively common for people with BPD based on my experience and based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere.  During times of dysregulation, they may be out of touch with reality (in a state of “psychosis”), and later not remember what happened while they were in that altered state.  Or they might invent a totally different set of events than what actually happened and then try to convince you that their version of events is the correct one (“gaslighting”).  Along these lines, Bon Dobbs has a great discussion about the nature of perceptions and reality in his book on dealing with BPD, “When Hope is Not Enough.”  I would suggest trying to identify and validate your BPD’s emotions instead of debating the facts – and be sure to hang on to your reality!

Also, please do keep us posted on what happens with your couples therapy.  I’m hoping the therapist is sharp enough to see what’s going on…

[connect]

Hi,

Same thing happened to me. My bf with BPD claimed he asked me not to speak to a certain person (He didnt say this!) I spoke to that person and my bf thought I had expressly ignored his wishes. This caused a spiral of silent treatment etc and him reassessing the r/s... you know how it goes.

My bf FELT he didnt want me to speak to that person and as Feelings=Facts he thought he had therefore told me...

if you look at some of my recent posts - I got quite a few answers on my similar situation - it might help.

As for the T. I would hope that they will pick up on the behaviours soon.

[Stamp]

This happens to us all the time when my partner is disregulated, and it's really tough.  When she's in a bad place, my partner will try to provoke me by talking about all her exes, even going so far as to talk about what they were like in bed etc.  I've learned to shut that out, she's just lashing out because she's in pain, so there's no point in getting upset.  However, a little while after that, she will often complain that I talk about my exes constantly and that I see them and communicate with them constantly.  I don't see any of my exes.  I used to try to point out to her that she was wrong, but she really believes what she's saying in those moments, so it's pointless.

[aglaophone]

The T doesn't seem to be picking up on anything. In fact, she turned it on me.

I mentioned the incident where she flipped the accusation onto me as if I had confessed it. That was simply a "misremembering and a misunderstanding" and I need to focus more on the feelings my gf was trying to express... .It's not worth arguing facts with the gf, but I was hoping at least the T would recognize it, because the short of it is that these issues never resolve, and they continue to come up, because I'm obviously looking for a way to get back with this ex, look, I even admitted it... .

[connect]

Any chance you could see the T on their own and run through your concerns ref the memory stuff? Or have a telephone appt without it showing on the notes?

Is your T familiar with BPD?

[aglaophone]

Didn't ask if the T was familiar with BPD. I mentioned the memory issues as one of my primary concerns at our first session and the T made the analogy to sometimes getting words mixed up, so I didn't have a lot of hope. I think it's time to call out of hours and see if I can get a few minutes to chat. Thanks for the advice Connect.

[aglaophone]

I brought the memory issues and changing the past again tonight, and the therapist replied, "Sometimes feelings can be pretty real." and I realized that the therapist doesn't get it. the point is that feelings can be intense, but we should be intent on discerning between feelings and reality. ugh ugh ugh

GF has set a two month time-frame, if I don't commit (propose) in two months, it's over. She's said as much to the T. The T didn't bat an eyelash. T recommended we talk this week and work out a strategy for overcoming these issues, and before we walked in the door to the house after the appointment, GF turns to me and says, let's make it a great 6 months (implying that this is our last 6 months together, since it's hopeless). Melodrama for the win ... .

[eeyore]

Didn't ask if the T was familiar with BPD. I mentioned the memory issues as one of my primary concerns at our first session and the T made the analogy to sometimes getting words mixed up, so I didn't have a lot of hope. I think it's time to call out of hours and see if I can get a few minutes to chat. Thanks for the advice Connect.

Why would you call out of hours?  How did you choose this T?  Asking because a good T will see through but has to build trust with both people in a relationship.  That generally takes time.  It doesn't sound like you have gone to that many sessions.  Please correct me if wrong, I wish to understand better. 

[aglaophone]

eeyore, you're right, I'm being impatient. Unfortunately, GF has set a deadline, and we aren't addressing one of the things I said I wanted to address. I want to talk off-hours to understand why. A simple, "we aren't going to address that now because, X" or, "that concern isn't relevant because y". I think it's a little unfair to hear someone say, "This thing really concerns me" and then ignore it for 4 weeks.

[eeyore]

eeyore, you're right, I'm being impatient. Unfortunately, GF has set a deadline, and we aren't addressing one of the things I said I wanted to address. I want to talk off-hours to understand why. A simple, "we aren't going to address that now because, X" or, "that concern isn't relevant because y". I think it's a little unfair to hear someone say, "This thing really concerns me" and then ignore it for 4 weeks.

Let's just say she addresses it. How do you think that would happen?  And what do you think the results would be?  Sometimes being right results in a wrong way.

[aglaophone]

You make a great point, thank you, Eeyore.

[pallavirajsinghani]

I think that we need to understand to begin with, why are we using a certain T with a certain specialty.  For instance, using a couples counselor or a marriage counselor explicitly gives the counselor the message that both the attendees want to improve the relationship.  Thus the focus will be primarily on communication, setting of mutual goals etc.  The focus will NOT be to assess any of the parties for any PD or other psycho-physiological disorder.  To the contrary, even if T recognizes any of the typical symptoms, the T will not discuss the suspicions of an illness.  Simply because, the parties have given the T the task of helping them stay together, and not split apart.  So the focus is on helping the couple develop cohesiveness in the relationship.

Idea is similar to:  I go to a grocery store, to buy groceries.  I go to a priest for spiritual guidance.  I go to a cardiologist for my heart problems... .Vitamin C does not do what Vitamin B says and the label on the bottle makes it quite clear, the scope of the services/benefit/goal.

Your concern in this case is suspicion of a PD.  Then what ideally should happen is that the engagement of a T specializing in diagnosis of PD's should be undertaken and consent explicitly granted for PD evaluation.

When the goal is relationship, a T's strategy is different, when the goal is evaluation, it is different.

Hope this helps.

And by the way, a couples counselor is prohibited by the ethical code of seeing either one of you separately without the knowledge and consent of the other.  This is their way of developing trust with both of you.

[aglaophone]

I'm not hopeful for therapy. There are a couple of problems. First, the therapist says it's ok for her to manufacture crises to elicit reassurances from me about our relationship. So, she doesn't think anything of making up things that didn't happen in order to have me make some impassioned plea to save our relationship.  A quote from the T, "I did that to my husband all the time."

To make matters worse, the GF gave me an 8 week ultimatum to propose or leave. It's funny the way she phrased it to, "You have 8 weeks to decide to propose, or you will have decided to leave." I wouldn't have thought much of it, but she's done it a few other times. It isn't, "You do X or I'll do Y", it's "You do X or you have chosen Y". Nothing negative is ever her fault or decision. Sounds a lot like a physically abusive husband who says his wife chose to be beaten by not listening.

The T has known about this ultimatum for the last 3 sessions and hasn't said anything about it. It's a little frustrating. I'd like a little bit of support.

[aglaophone]

Ugh, other fun gems... .Turns out she faked a pregnancy during a previous recycle event.

This evening I'm in trouble for announcing (yesterday) that I'd be taking the evening to study for a masters course I'm taking.

I've mentioned concerns from the past where I'd be in trouble for even listening to a football game while vacuuming her car, and other times for studying. She always insisted those were simple 'mis-communications'. This sucks.

[eeyore]

if I was in your shoes I'd choose a new gf. 

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not hopeful for therapy. There are a couple of problems. First, the therapist says it's ok for her to manufacture crises to elicit reassurances from me about our relationship. So, she doesn't think anything of making up things that didn't happen in order to have me make some impassioned plea to save our relationship.  A quote from the T, "I did that to my husband all the time."

I don't find that kind of behavior acceptable. If I heard that my T thought it was OK, and did it herself, I wouldn't be seeing that T again.

To make matters worse, the GF gave me an 8 week ultimatum to propose or leave.

That is harsh. But never mind what she is saying/doing... .here's the important question: What do you want?

Do you want to get married?

If not, do you wish to end the r/s?

 GK

[aglaophone]

I already know this is wrong, but I like the idea of marrying the person I hope she can be. This is why we're going to therapy. But if she's unwilling to make positive strides toward getting better, then I can't live the rest of my life questioning my sanity. So, I'm not going to cave under the ultimatum, but I did have hope that we could find productive ways to deal with this. I think that time has passed.

I agree, that we needed to find another therapist, but when I floated that idea, she blew up and accused me of just looking for a therapist who would tell me what I wanted to hear. Which is true, where "wanted to hear" is synonymous with sanity.

[Grey Kitty]

WANTING to marry the person you hope she can be is a pretty normal feeling, and more importantly, it is your real feeling. There is nothing wrong there.

Actually choosing to do it for that reason is much less of a good idea 

Do you want to marry her as she is right now?

I agree, that we needed to find another therapist, but when I floated that idea, she blew up and accused me of just looking for a therapist who would tell me what I wanted to hear. Which is true, where "wanted to hear" is synonymous with sanity.

She can argue if she wants, and accuse you of anything she wants to... .but if the T isn't working for you, that is your reality, and giving in on it isn't going to help things. OTOH, it probably won't be worse than wasted time and money.

You might try something like S.E.T. on this one: [Perhaps somebody will improve for me]

I love you and I care about our r/s and I'm doing what I can to improve it.

I understand that you like T

Couples therapy can only work if both of us respect and trust the therapist. T doesn't work for me.

[aglaophone]

I definitely can't live in this state indefinitely. I can't be trying to head off invented dramas. I think I'll be switching forum topics, soon, unfortunately.

[Grey Kitty]

I can't be trying to head off invented dramas.

You are right--it isn't possible to head off invented dramas--if somebody wants/needs to invent drama, you cannot stop them from doing so. And a pwBPD will create drama because the result works for them, if you let it.

What you can do is step out of the drama once it is invented, especially when it becomes verbal/emotional abuse.

The amazing thing is that at this point, the pwBPD doesn't get the relief they are used to (by taking it out on you) and has to find a different way of coping with whatever they are feeling. And usually they do come up with another method; often one that is better for our r/s.