Seeking advice on custody order.

[Herculite]

Hi all. I'm relatively new on this board, and can I say what a great site this is.

A brief history about me.

* I left my uBPD/NPD wife 3 1/2 months ago. We are slowly entering into separation/divorce proceedings. In Australia, we have to be separated a full 12 months before we can divorce.

* We have been together for 20 years.In that time she has cheated on me on 3 separate occasions. The last time was just over 3 years ago. It was the final straw for me. But even then, in her NPD way, she blamed me for her cheating and the marriage dragged on for 3 more years. In that time we had MC which was a total waste of time. We saw 2 separate psychologists, both refusing to discuss the affair and why she did it. Both would only entertain the idea that cheating by one spouse is a result of unhappiness in the marriage caused equally by both parties, and so both should share the problem. I never bought it for a second.

Anyway, that's ancient history now and I've moved on. Along the way,I've learnt a lot about why people cheat, the sense of entitlement, gas lighting, projection, blameshifting,lack of remorse. All the things I experienced from her, but never understood why until I read about PD's, particularly BPD and NPD.

* So I feel like I've made significant progress. Leaving her was the most difficult part. Not because I was unsure, or didn't want to. I thought it through every day for over 3 years. Literally thousands of times. I've never been more sure about anything,as hard as the decision was with 2 children invovled (ages 8 & 16).


So the advice I'm looking for, if anyone may have been through the same, is regarding a custody order.

We have both agreed to a 50/50 custody arrangement. My lawyer drafted a written agreement ( a very standard document).

My wife won't sign it, because she claims she wants a more flexible arrangement. This is because according to her, if the children feel unsettled with me, and want to go back to her sooner, they shouldn't be restricted by a document.

She has no grounds to say that. I've a wonderful father, I believe. My 2 sons & I have a very amicable relationship. If anything, my oldest son has lost respect for his mother over the whole saga.

I believe the real reason has to do with loss of control. So far, she will let me know what's happening with parenting on any given weekend at a days notice. It leaves me with no freedom to plan. It's manipulitve.

Again, I see it as another facet of NPD in her were my rejection of her is painful for her, and for that I'm sorry. But, I was left with no choice but to leave. The damage was too painful.

Thanks for listening and I would appreciate any thoughts.

[slimmiller]

First off congratualtions on being able to move forward. It can be paralyzing, especially when they put us in the FOG and we believe that its our fault etc.

I dont know the laws specifically in your country but if its anything like it is here (US) then the custody agreement is more or less a guideline. In other words you agree to a plan and put it on paper so that if there are problems the law can then enforce the agreement (to a degree)  Here the courts dont seem to really care the exact times or visitations etc UNLESS it becomes a problem. The law wants the parents to more or less be the parents, do what works etc and leave the law out of it. After the case leaves the court its up to the parties to make it work. Fact is, the only time its not flexible anyways is if she is unwilling to be flexible. (herself)

Maybe if you reason with her (I know with a PD that can be a daunting task in and of itself) in this way of thinking, maybe she will be inclined to sign it. I think usually it has to do with control more then anything as you said. She wont sign because then she is locked in to her own agreement and they sometimes dont want to do that. Its like they feel they give up control, even if the agreement is their idea

[Herculite]

Thanks Slim,

I'm not sure how orders are inforced here either. All I know is that my lawyer is adamant about a definitive document being signed, and not have some verbal agreement  that is ambiguous and open to manipulation.

My wife is a lawyer, but doesn't deal in family law. So we each have our own lawyer. I'm the only non-lawyer in this 4 way communication. But from what I've seen so far, it's not nuclear physics. With all due respect to the law profession, why would her lawyer ask for an informal non-written agreement. From what I've seen , they do absolutely nothing unless a formal contract is drawn up and signed.

[ForeverDad]

With reasonably normal people a little vagueness is not generally a problem, it allows flexibility and so standard boilerplate can be seen stating "reasonable telephone contact" and "mutually agreed exchange locations".

For someone with an acting-out PD a vague order enables, even invites, re-interpretation.  How do you consistently find "mutual agreement" or "reasonableness" with someone disordered whose moods and feelings drive their world view perceptions?

So it is generally best to lock down those otherwise fine clauses so they don't invite reinterpretation.

I've come to conclude that a wandering or somewhat absentee spouse who isn't trying to parent may not cause constant problems with vague orders but if you have a controlling or possessive spouse then vague orders invite problems.  Sadly, perhaps due to our level of desperation, most who find their way here to this sight report having controllers not wanderers.

[Herculite]

Thanks Foreverdad.

You speak with wisdom and experience, I can tell, and given your number of posts, you must have helped many. I'm honoured.

My u BPD STBXW is definitely in the "controlling , possessive" group. Her motives are all about contolling and manipulating the situation. It's one of the last cards she has to play. Quite sad really. Do BPDs ever reach a point where they finally let go? I keep reading they keep coming back again and again for another swipe. Or to recycle you back into their life. She has so much going for her: attractive, great university degree and career etc. I just don't get it.

So what you say about locking down the "fine" clauses is true. She wants it informal and vague, so as to manipulate.

I'm still waiting to hear back from my lawyer.

Thanks again.

[Waddams]

Sounds to me like she wants to be able to say "the kids don't want to come to your house so I'm not sending them and I don't have to per the orders" when your parenting time rolls around.  Could she be pre-planning this particular maneuver already? 

FD is right.  Anything in the orders that isn't clear cut and explicit will be used by her to screw with you.  I'll give you an example:

We had a clause in our original divorce that said if either of us wanted the other to babysit, we had to give the other parent 24 hour notice.  My L explained it as something that said was supposed to make it so neither could call each other on 5 minute notice and say "here take the kid" and use that means as a way to spoil each others other plans.

My XW re-interpreted that as right-of-first refusal and went ballistic when I would do things like leave my son at home with other people to run to the store for 30 minutes, etc. instead of send him to her for babysitting.  I have it in writing from her where she is quoting that line of the orders and telling me if I so much as needed to run out for 5 minutes to get milk, I had to get her to babysit first.  I ignored and told her pound sand, but that was extent of her attempts to try to manipulate and screw with me.  She included in this complaint in a frivolous law suit she filed against me (where she also complained about me giving him poptarts and candy as occasional treats... .oh the abuse!).  Sometimes I still wish I'd made her take me in front of a judge that time instead of settling.  I would have loved to see a judge's reaction, but I'd gotten her to agree to some changes to our orders that were very beneficial to me, so I went ahead with the settlement.

[Herculite]

FD is right.  Anything in the orders that isn't clear cut and explicit will be used by her to screw with you. 

 

Thanks Waddams,

That is exactly what she wants. In her BPD mindset, she has been rejected. I was reading SWOE again today.  It mentioned that to a scorned, rejected BPD, high conflict contact with the rejecting other (me, in this case), is better than no contact at all. That is her plan. In her messed up mind, it's a way of keeping the flickering hope of reconciliation alive.

She's already done it this afternoon. Our current informal arrangement should mean that she has the children this weekend. But she texted this afternoon asking if I would have them this weekend and for the next week. I had plans, but the others involved new I might have to bail out. And now I have to. I have no doubt she new I would have plans.

Most likely she was hoping I would say "no, I can't, I have plans" and then save that as evidence that I don't show enough care or interest in my children. So I'm at her mercy until such time as a written,clear concise order is drafted & signed.

Stay tuned!

[livednlearned]

Have you read Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy? If not, highly recommended! It will help you understand how BPD plays out in family court situations.

Also, how telling that she is already disagreeing to cooperate on a set schedule. Expect that to go on indefinitely -- after you two sign a consent order, she will ignore it, and you will decide whether to file motions for contempt. When she doesn't bring your kids to you on time, and tells you how it's going to be, you need a legal document that you can take back to the judge and say: "She consented to this and has repeatedly ignored it."

It takes a long time, unfortunately, but over time, her behavior will start to tick off the courts. It's hard for them to tell in the beginning who the problem is, but once she starts signing legal documents, she's expected to ask like a grown up and follow through on the agreement. Because pwBPD can't maintain interact in a consistently adult way, her immaturity and irrational reasoning will start to draw attention to her.

I'm sorry you have to go through this. Your sons are lucky to have you.

[livednlearned]

She's already done it this afternoon. Our current informal arrangement should mean that she has the children this weekend. But she texted this afternoon asking if I would have them this weekend and for the next week. I had plans, but the others involved new I might have to bail out. And now I have to. I have no doubt she new I would have plans.

Most likely she was hoping I would say "no, I can't, I have plans" and then save that as evidence that I don't show enough care or interest in my children. So I'm at her mercy until such time as a written,clear concise order is drafted & signed.

Document this -- make sure you track how much time your kids spend with you, how often she asks you to care for them.

Also, might be worth asking for what you truly want. Is it more than 50/50? Because with pwBPD, it's always good to ask for more than what you really want so you have room to settle.

Also also: even when the consent order is in place, she sounds like the kind of pwBPD who will cancel often, and you'll end up having the kids more than what's in the court documents.

[david]

My xBPDw left in 2007. The first custody agreement was crafted by the atty's and the court since I had no idea how the game was played. One thing I learned is judges want solutions given to them. Our current custody order was written by me and is detailed. Every problem that came up over the years is addressed with a reasonable and ironclad solution. Some of the major pieces, all communication is done through email, once an agreement is reached by both parties it can not be changed unless both parties agree in another email. All holidays are spelled out. This includes every school holiday, inservice school days when the kids are off, Thanksgiving week, Christmas week, spring break, etc... I left no wiggle room except we can change anything if we both agree in an email.

You really need to think about what works best for the kids, what works best for you and if the court will view it as reasonable. Our order had major revisions in 2009 and has pretty much stayed that way since. The changes since then have been through email agreements.

[Herculite]

Have you read Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy? If not, highly recommended! It will help you understand how BPD plays out in family court situations.

Also, how telling that she is already disagreeing to cooperate on a set schedule. Expect that to go on indefinitely -- after you two sign a consent order, she will ignore it, and you will decide whether to file motions for contempt. When she doesn't bring your kids to you on time, and tells you how it's going to be, you need a legal document that you can take back to the judge and say: "She consented to this and has repeatedly ignored it."

It takes a long time, unfortunately, but over time, her behavior will start to tick off the courts. It's hard for them to tell in the beginning who the problem is, but once she starts signing legal documents, she's expected to ask like a grown up and follow through on the agreement. Because pwBPD can't maintain interact in a consistently adult way, her immaturity and irrational reasoning will start to draw attention to her.

I'm sorry you have to go through this. Your sons are lucky to have you.

Thank you so much livednlearned,

That's just the advice I need. You sound like you've been through this and can relate. Yes I have read  "splitting" as an audio book which I've listened to. It scared the hell out of me. Now it's time to go through it again.

You don't know my wife but you have summed her up, and her motives so precisely.

I've learnt to remain calm in the high pressure situations. I hope.

She is smart. She's a lawyer in our small city, which immediately makes me think she will get a biased advantage.

I'm focused. I'm just aiming to be as ready as possible.

Thanks for the support!

[Herculite]

She's already done it this afternoon. Our current informal arrangement should mean that she has the children this weekend. But she texted this afternoon asking if I would have them this weekend and for the next week. I had plans, but the others involved new I might have to bail out. And now I have to. I have no doubt she new I would have plans.

Most likely she was hoping I would say "no, I can't, I have plans" and then save that as evidence that I don't show enough care or interest in my children. So I'm at her mercy until such time as a written,clear concise order is drafted & signed.

Document this -- make sure you track how much time your kids spend with you, how often she asks you to care for them.

Also, might be worth asking for what you truly want. Is it more than 50/50? Because with pwBPD, it's always good to ask for more than what you really want so you have room to settle.

Also also: even when the consent order is in place, she sounds like the kind of pwBPD who will cancel often, and you'll end up having the kids more than what's in the court documents.

It was a text message, so it's documented.

I have a lawyer, and less to lose than she has, so I just have to play the game for now. ie: be the great dad, which I think I'm doing naturally, and go from there, one day at a time.

[Herculite]

My xBPDw left in 2007. The first custody agreement was crafted by the atty's and the court since I had no idea how the game was played. One thing I learned is judges want solutions given to them. Our current custody order was written by me and is detailed. Every problem that came up over the years is addressed with a reasonable and ironclad solution. Some of the major pieces, all communication is done through email, once an agreement is reached by both parties it can not be changed unless both parties agree in another email. All holidays are spelled out. This includes every school holiday, inservice school days when the kids are off, Thanksgiving week, Christmas week, spring break, etc... I left no wiggle room except we can change anything if we both agree in an email.

You really need to think about what works best for the kids, what works best for you and if the court will view it as reasonable. Our order had major revisions in 2009 and has pretty much stayed that way since. The changes since then have been through email agreements.

Thanks David,

I find that reassuring. I believe I know what's fair and normal. My experience with the "professionals" ie" lawyers/psychologists" is that they are either extremely good ( which is very rare } or they they have no *&^^%'n idea, which is more common".

My big concern with divorce/separation process is the competence of the  highly paid so called professionals involved. I don't mind paying the fees, but I want an extremely competent individual who knows what they're doing. Not someone who has been at it too long, and has fixed ideas.

[livednlearned]

She is smart. She's a lawyer in our small city, which immediately makes me think she will get a biased advantage.

You might be right that there will be a bias toward her. But just as likely, she may also have a bad reputation among her colleagues, and some may even be enemies.

N/BPDxh is a lawyer. He was a trial lawyer until recently and because of that, I was doubly terrified of going through divorce. During our marriage he would often use his expertise to intimidate me, saying no judge would ever believe me, I would lose custody of S12, I have no clue how things really work, blah blah blah.

The thing is, BPD is BPD, even in lawyers. Even in so-called high-functioning lawyers! I cannot believe how distorted N/BPDx's judgement has been throughout this process. That angry impulsive entitled quality we all know so well does not go away during legal proceedings. In fact, it might get worse. They don't listen to sound advice from their Ls, they don't think twice before sending angry emails, and they cannot put the kids first.

My wife won't sign it, because she claims she wants a more flexible arrangement. This is because according to her, if the children feel unsettled with me, and want to go back to her sooner, they shouldn't be restricted by a document.

Even that right there is a red flag. Maybe it's subtle right now, but it won't stay that way. She's a lawyer! Lawyers draft legal agreements for a living. Why? Because legal agreements keep things neat and tidy. Which is important when kids are involved! This would be troubling thinking for a regular client. It's doubly so coming from a lawyer.

Courts think Ls should know better. At least here in my county, the judge also held N/BPDx (who ended up representing himself) to the highest standard possible in case N/BPDx tried to appeal on a technicality. Everything was by the book. It might not seem that the courts see your side in the beginning, and maybe they don't. But over time, your disordered ex is probably going to draw attention to the same personality issues that made you leave her. Where I live, spouses have to separate for 12 months before the divorce is final too -- the advantage to that is that you start establishing legal agreements that your ex is going to have a hard time following through with. My judge became so irritated with N/BPDx disagreeing with things N/BPDx agreed to in the consent order, he ruled that N/BPDx has to pay my legal fees. Not sure I'll ever see the money, but at least the judge saw what was going on.

Have you also read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak? Parental alienation tends to go hand-in-hand with high-conflict divorces, and this is the best book out there to help you prepare for what's coming. I also read Power of Validation -- as a good dad, you're probably doing a lot of this already. Kids don't get a lot (if any) validation from BPD parents, and it's essential to their emotional health. So lay it on thick   and help your kids figure out who they are and what they believe, feel, and want.

[Herculite]

Thanks again LNLd,

I appreciate your sharing the details of your case. That's the sort of moral support I could use.

When we did the false reconciliation in MC with a psychologist, my STBXW often lost the plot and went into narcissist/borderline rage. The P's only comment to her: "you are so aggressive". Like it was all a big joke. I should have walked out at the point. What a waste of time that was.

It wouldn't surprise me if she lost the plot in court or in mediation. In Australia, you must first have mediation, before it gets to court. To a normal, psychologically well balanced person, it should be resolved at mediation. But I assume when you're dealing with a BPF/NPD fruitcake, they're always going to derail the process. Her bad temper may work against her. Although, as this has dragged on for years now, she has become more controlled. At one point some months ago,  she forced me to tell what I thought was wrong with her. I told her that I thought she had BPD. Predictably, she verbally abused me and told me that I had it. How many times have I read that in the literature. She then told me a story about a cousin of hers who visited her years ago. The cousin told my STBXW that she thought her mother, and my STBXW's father (siblings) both had BPD. My STBXW scoffed at the idea. Looking back at it, there would seem to be a very strong genetic link. All 4 individuals, in my memory were prone to abusive outrages.

Thanks for the reassurance about the children also. We get on so well, and having them more in my life now only makes things better. I will get those books. Thanks for the tip. It's Amazon time:)

Again, thank you for your sincere advice. It's very much appreciated. Everyday I still worry about the battle ahead. I dislike confrontation so much. My STBXW on the other hand thrives on it, and exploits the fact that I avoid confrontation. Anyway, I'll pick my battles when neccessary and get throught this.

[livednlearned]

It wouldn't surprise me if she lost the plot in court or in mediation. In Australia, you must first have mediation, before it gets to court. To a normal, psychologically well balanced person, it should be resolved at mediation. But I assume when you're dealing with a BPF/NPD fruitcake, they're always going to derail the process. Her bad temper may work against her. Although, as this has dragged on for years now, she has become more controlled.

Losing the plot -- that's such a great way to phrase it 


I did mediation first, too. Not sure if it's the same in Australia, but here, the temporary orders you draft in mediation often become permanent. That "temporary" part is misleading.

Another important thing I learned -- judges take very serious anything you consent to. If you are conflict avoidant, you may feel tremendous pressure to agree to things in mediation (because people are tired, or hungry, want to go home, or feel you are very close to a deal, etc.). Ls want you to settle. Judges want you to settle. (For good reason, because court is stressful, and also for bureaucratic reasons, because court is overflowing with cases). Just know that these are your children, this is your life, your case, and your decision, and you can say no to things! Write down on a pad of paper what you want. Then write what you are willing to negotiate. Then what is absolutely your bottom line. Take that with you and read it while you're in there to remind yourself what's important to you. Mediation can be very stressful and intimidating, and very emotional, so it helps to pre-think your points of negotiation before you get in there. I didn't mediate with N/BPDx in the same room, and I still found it extremely stressful. If you mediate in the same room, I highly recommend not having eye contact with your spouse. Make this about you. 

Also, another thing I learned is that you can agree to almost everything in mediation, and then set aside anything you can't agree on. At least here, it's not an all or nothing situation. For example, my temp consent order from mediation settled 98% of our affairs, child custody and financial, etc. But I would not agree to joint legal custody. In my temporary order (which became permanent), it says "The parties do not agree on joint legal custody and this matter will be put forth before the courts." Or something like that. So don't feel like if you disagree with one point, you can't still move ahead with the others that you do agree to.

I didn't get sole legal custody, but it was stated in my consent order that I felt strong about it. And when I went back to court 2.5 years later to get full custody (with a whole bunch of evidence in my favor), the judge saw that I was consistent in what I was asking for.

One thing, too, about being conflict avoidant -- it's good that you know that about yourself. I personally think it makes it more likely that your actions will be impeccable in terms of how things go in court, and how you conduct yourself while your custody case is active. But you will be tested many times in the months and years ahead. Friends here are awesome at giving moral support when you need help finding that backbone    And having a good T is also very helpful. If ever there was a time to get yourself into therapy, this is it. The same qualities that made us doormats in our BPD r/s can be a problem for us when fighting for our kids. It helps to have other people check your thinking and give you some tools for the work ahead.

Hope you let us know how things go. 

[Herculite]

The thing is, BPD is BPD, even in lawyers. Even in so-called high-functioning lawyers!

Thanks LNL'd.

I think that line is very accurate. I'll go a step beyond and say that they most likely handle their disorder probably worse than others in this situation. Huge ego's, combined with a percieved superiority and  advantage that they have over you in their world. No disrespect meant to lawyers in general. I know some who are perfectly well balanced individuals. I'm also a professional, in a profession top heavy with swollen ego'd PD'd individuals. That doesn't mean I'm one of them.

Thanks for your very specific advice. It sounds like it will be a long haul, depending on how she behaves. I'll continue to read, communicate and have faith in my L, and keep my cool at all times. I'm pretty good at that. Sometimes I'm probably too patient. I know it got me unstuck in MC.

Regarding conflict avoidance: I'm not a total pushover. I just don't enjoy conflict. I think you need to be very messed in the head to constantly turn to conflict/verbal abuse as your modus operandi. I find knowledge is the best way to deal with it. Stay calm and don't be baffled by their BS.

I'm currently looking for a T'ist/psychologist who is knowledgable in BPD/NPD. It's proving difficult. So far, I discovered, none of them are very familiar or interested in NPD. And the ones who deal in BPD, only deal with that small % who are low functioning, self harming types who are often institutionalized. They seem to be totally unaware of the high functioning, cunning, invisible ones who are out ther in much higher numbers. I sometimes think society believes this behaviour is normal in some people. Almost neccessary, because they seem to portray strong leadership etc. Trouble is, there is a huge difference between leadership and manipulation. Anyway, just ranting

LND'd , thank you again. I appreciate your detailed responses. They will be very beneficial in my journey, of that I'm certain. I will keep you posted.