Another recycle, but I stumbled upon new insights

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Well, hello, I am with you again.

Update. A new recycle, this time with boundaries. Didn't work. Assaults were tremendous. Finally I could not hold it anymore and I told her about BPD and gave her a copy of "Stop walking". I know it is not ideal book, but it is the only one translated into our language and she has trouble with English. Wow, she was receptive but of course it turned around and I was blamed for not being man enough to support her, despite knowing. But no matter, I was prepared. Ultimately she concludes that we cannot function together under pressure that every action of hers would be viewed through disorder. Possibly true, but it is also true that I live with this knowledge for better part of past two years.

Unfortunately, this separation was followed by her being possibly pregnant. Let me tell you right now, that week was an absolutely most horrible week of my life. She sensed that I am bound by moral and tradition and used that time to beat the **** out of me emotionally. The damage caused is immense.

But, luckily, it was not the case. Spared me 20 years of parallel parenting hell. I would not even consider marriage at this point, not to mention the drama of paternity test.

Aftermath is, of course, a breakup. She is healing through partying and pretzel psychology, I am in incredibly labile state alternating between blind fury and desperate search for "why". And reading and research do not really help. What I seem to find is either too much on "they are monsters and should be exterminated" or too much on "you are codependent, it's your own fault". Neither resonates well with my values.

Then I stumble upon a truly objective and neutral article that gave me a lot of comfort that is now, surprisingly, lasting for days, and I am sharing in hope it might help some of you.

The first key sentence there is: "Borderliners do very badly with people who make careless hurtful remarks or who are unable to regularly express affection." This gave me an answer why I constantly fail in recycles.

Let's split this in two parts. First is about hurtful remarks. I do not dish out hurtful remarks. However, playful teasing is a natural part of relationship. What I did not get is that even joking is being taken seriously. She often told me, after a fight, how I fail to be mushy-mushy with her. In my mind, I rationalized that as I am not to resist the abuse. Now I see it in a different light. I am sure she understands that when drama starts, I would defend, and cause damage back. What I failed to understand is that it is not about that at all. It was about trying not to even hint about any deficiency or wrongdoing in a first place. This is just a case of failure to express her needs and desires, but also my failed understanding that she cannot assert her point in advance, out of childhood-bred fear. This also explains horribly painful non-physical triangulations. "My ex would never do that to me" - it was not about her ex, it was just a wrong way of telling me to be extra-sensitive.

Second part is about regulrly expressing affection. As I am typing this, texts arrive from a girl who I sent a Snickers bar, as part of an inside joke. She is in heaven. To my ex, I gave my body and soul. And very little appreciation back. The sad truth is, she does not value that. Today, I was watching my friend with his child on soccer practice. The appreciation he gives to his child is out of proportion, but it is normal response to a child. Fact is, all the security, forward thinking, resources and shelter/frame I gave to my ex is of little value to her. She needs child support mode - reinforcement of small actions, out-of-proportion recognition of insignifcant achievements. I used to get a lot of "look how this other guy constantly praises his girl". I cannot do this. It just feels unnatural. Oh, it is not about my lack of praise. It is about so much praise that you ultimately feel unnatural to express to a grown-up. Another example of failure to communicate.

Conclusion: what she needs, I cannot provide. Probably nobody can, but I truly do not wish to judge here.

Oh, and what about recycles? "Their sense of belonging in the relationship need regular reinforcement in the form of tenderly expressed physical affection and a genuine interest in, and respect of their persona.". I, and I trust many of you reading this, satisfy the second criteria. For two reasons stated above, we just do not satisfy the first one. The trick is, most of the people borderlines get entangled with would not satisfy the second. This makes us a much more stable target of desire, so it often falls onto us to bear the pain of being abused because we cannot express childish reinforcement. To me, this bings great sadeness that I know a person burdened with such a struggle, but also a great understanding of why I am caught up in this circle of pain.

Thank you for reading, hope this helps some of you.

[Numbers]

Well, hello, I am with you again.

Update. A new recycle, this time with boundaries. Didn't work. Assaults were tremendous. Finally I could not hold it anymore and I told her about BPD and gave her a copy of "Stop walking". I know it is not ideal book, but it is the only one translated into our language and she has trouble with English. Wow, she was receptive but of course it turned around and I was blamed for not being man enough to support her, despite knowing. But no matter, I was prepared. Ultimately she concludes that we cannot function together under pressure that every action of hers would be viewed through disorder. Possibly true, but it is also true that I live with this knowledge for better part of past two years.

Unfortunately, this separation was followed by her being possibly pregnant. Let me tell you right now, that week was an absolutely most horrible week of my life. She sensed that I am bound by moral and tradition and used that time to beat the **** out of me emotionally. The damage caused is immense.

But, luckily, it was not the case. Spared me 20 years of parallel parenting hell. I would not even consider marriage at this point, not to mention the drama of paternity test.

Aftermath is, of course, a breakup. She is healing through partying and pretzel psychology, I am in incredibly labile state alternating between blind fury and desperate search for "why". And reading and research do not really help. What I seem to find is either too much on "they are monsters and should be exterminated" or too much on "you are codependent, it's your own fault". Neither resonates well with my values.

Then I stumble upon a truly objective and neutral article that gave me a lot of comfort that is now, surprisingly, lasting for days, and I am sharing in hope it might help some of you.

The first key sentence there is: "Borderliners do very badly with people who make careless hurtful remarks or who are unable to regularly express affection." This gave me an answer why I constantly fail in recycles.

Let's split this in two parts. First is about hurtful remarks. I do not dish out hurtful remarks. However, playful teasing is a natural part of relationship. What I did not get is that even joking is being taken seriously. She often told me, after a fight, how I fail to be mushy-mushy with her. In my mind, I rationalized that as I am not to resist the abuse. Now I see it in a different light. I am sure she understands that when drama starts, I would defend, and cause damage back. What I failed to understand is that it is not about that at all. It was about trying not to even hint about any deficiency or wrongdoing in a first place. This is just a case of failure to express her needs and desires, but also my failed understanding that she cannot assert her point in advance, out of childhood-bred fear. This also explains horribly painful non-physical triangulations. "My ex would never do that to me" - it was not about her ex, it was just a wrong way of telling me to be extra-sensitive.

Second part is about regulrly expressing affection. As I am typing this, texts arrive from a girl who I sent a Snickers bar, as part of an inside joke. She is in heaven. To my ex, I gave my body and soul. And very little appreciation back. The sad truth is, she does not value that. Today, I was watching my friend with his child on soccer practice. The appreciation he gives to his child is out of proportion, but it is normal response to a child. Fact is, all the security, forward thinking, resources and shelter/frame I gave to my ex is of little value to her. She needs child support mode - reinforcement of small actions, out-of-proportion recognition of insignifcant achievements. I used to get a lot of "look how this other guy constantly praises his girl". I cannot do this. It just feels unnatural. Oh, it is not about my lack of praise. It is about so much praise that you ultimately feel unnatural to express to a grown-up. Another example of failure to communicate.

Conclusion: what she needs, I cannot provide. Probably nobody can, but I truly do not wish to judge here.

Oh, and what about recycles? "Their sense of belonging in the relationship need regular reinforcement in the form of tenderly expressed physical affection and a genuine interest in, and respect of their persona.". I, and I trust many of you reading this, satisfy the second criteria. For two reasons stated above, we just do not satisfy the first one. The trick is, most of the people borderlines get entangled with would not satisfy the second. This makes us a much more stable target of desire, so it often falls onto us to bear the pain of being abused because we cannot express childish reinforcement. To me, this bings great sadeness that I know a person burdened with such a struggle, but also a great understanding of why I am caught up in this circle of pain.

Thank you for reading, hope this helps some of you.

[GreenMango]

Conclusion: what she needs, I cannot provide. Probably nobody can, but I truly do not wish to judge here.

This is important to acknowledge.  It was also the point when I could let go of the person.  It's not so much about disorder as it is about not being able to meet those expectations.

Thanks for sharing.

[eyvindr]

Thanks for sharing -- I could particularly relate to this part, and your comments:

Second part is about regularly expressing affection. As I am typing this, texts arrive from a girl who I sent a Snickers bar, as part of an inside joke. She is in heaven. To my ex, I gave my body and soul. And very little appreciation back. The sad truth is, she does not value that. Today, I was watching my friend with his child on soccer practice. The appreciation he gives to his child is out of proportion, but it is normal response to a child. Fact is, all the security, forward thinking, resources and shelter/frame I gave to my ex is of little value to her. She needs child support mode - reinforcement of small actions, out-of-proportion recognition of insignificant achievements. I used to get a lot of "look how this other guy constantly praises his girl". I cannot do this. It just feels unnatural. Oh, it is not about my lack of praise. It is about so much praise that you ultimately feel unnatural to express to a grown-up. Another example of failure to communicate.

Conclusion: what she needs, I cannot provide. Probably nobody can, but I truly do not wish to judge here.

Exactly true in my case, as I experienced it with my xuBPDgf -- to the point of her explicitly verbalizing to me that she needed continual feedback, compliments and reminders that I loved her. Even after I told her, in response to her demands, that I wouldn't agree to it. Then the gaslighting started -- she routinely attempted to convince me that, in "normal" (her favorite manipu-word, I think) r-ships, couples "who didn't live together" did this all the time -- "ask anyone." I think her rationale here went like this:

1. We're a couple.

2. We've expressed our love to each other.

3. Couples who are in love "the way we are" get married.

4. We aren't married.

5. Not being married, there are limits to the amount of time we have together.

6. So, to make up for the deficit in time spent together, which we'd have if we lived together, you need to make up for it every waking second by providing me with continual demonstrations of attention/affection.

Despite me clearly refusing to agree to her terms, and even suggesting that, if she needed that level of attention, I was the wrong partner for her, because I'd never live up to her expectations, she refused to leave the r-ship.

Oh, and what about recycles? "Their sense of belonging in the relationship need regular reinforcement in the form of tenderly expressed physical affection and a genuine interest in, and respect of their persona." I, and I trust many of you reading this, satisfy the second criteria. For two reasons stated above, we just do not satisfy the first one. The trick is, most of the people borderlines get entangled with would not satisfy the second. This makes us a much more stable target of desire, so it often falls onto us to bear the pain of being abused because we cannot express childish reinforcement. To me, this brings great sadness that I know a person burdened with such a struggle, but also a great understanding of why I am caught up in this circle of pain.

This feels very accurate. Our BPDs require -- and demand -- that we re-calibrate our "normal" behavior to their dysfunctional levels. When we can't, or refuse to, we're accused of invalidating them, not caring about their needs, and being dismissive, inattentive, cold and abusive -- all accusations that have been leveled at me more times than I can count.

Usually, those "discussions" morphed into the circular arguments that we're all too familiar with. The so-called "resolution" for her always was her informing me that she "realized" that I just "wasn't like normal people," and "didn't feeling things the same way that normal people do," and that while "I'd never likely meet her needs in this area," she was "willing to accept it" because she loved me.

I was always left feeling like there was nothing I could do to please her or make her happy. I pleaded with her for constancy. I was left feeling helpless. I was left feeling like a failure as a partner. I never felt like she didn't love me -- I know that she did, deeply -- but I wasn't willing to accept the emotional abuse that she dished out, regardless of the love I know she has for me. Stubborn, I know. In my defense, I tried for 2 yrs, including taking her back after one real break-up in the middle.

I finally reached a point where I wasn't willing to accept the chasm between knowing she loved me, but feeling like she had no true appreciation for me as a partner. Admittedly, I feared that, if she truly felt that way about me, she'd eventually leave me -- who wouldn't? But, she never left. I finally realized that it probably wasn't so much about her leaving me, as about her making me afraid to leave her, by subtle (probably unconscious, I think) efforts to erode my confidence and self-esteem -- so I'd never leave her. A flawed strategy on her part, I'm saddened to say.

Would love it if you could share a link to the original article -- thanks again for sharing.

[Ironmanrises]

Thanks for sharing -- I could particularly relate to this part, and your comments:

Second part is about regularly expressing affection. As I am typing this, texts arrive from a girl who I sent a Snickers bar, as part of an inside joke. She is in heaven. To my ex, I gave my body and soul. And very little appreciation back. The sad truth is, she does not value that. Today, I was watching my friend with his child on soccer practice. The appreciation he gives to his child is out of proportion, but it is normal response to a child. Fact is, all the security, forward thinking, resources and shelter/frame I gave to my ex is of little value to her. She needs child support mode - reinforcement of small actions, out-of-proportion recognition of insignificant achievements. I used to get a lot of "look how this other guy constantly praises his girl". I cannot do this. It just feels unnatural. Oh, it is not about my lack of praise. It is about so much praise that you ultimately feel unnatural to express to a grown-up. Another example of failure to communicate.

Conclusion: what she needs, I cannot provide. Probably nobody can, but I truly do not wish to judge here.

Exactly true in my case, as I experienced it with my xuBPDgf -- to the point of her explicitly verbalizing to me that she needed continual feedback, compliments and reminders that I loved her. Even after I told her, in response to her demands, that I wouldn't agree to it. Then the gaslighting started -- she routinely attempted to convince me that, in "normal" (her favorite manipu-word, I think) r-ships, couples "who didn't live together" did this all the time -- "ask anyone." I think her rationale here went like this:

1. We're a couple.

2. We've expressed our love to each other.

3. Couples who are in love "the way we are" get married.

4. We aren't married.

5. Not being married, there are limits to the amount of time we have together.

6. So, to make up for the deficit in time spent together, which we'd have if we lived together, you need to make up for it every waking second by providing me with continual demonstrations of attention/affection.

Despite me clearly refusing to agree to her terms, and even suggesting that, if she needed that level of attention, I was the wrong partner for her, because I'd never live up to her expectations, she refused to leave the r-ship.

Oh, and what about recycles? "Their sense of belonging in the relationship need regular reinforcement in the form of tenderly expressed physical affection and a genuine interest in, and respect of their persona." I, and I trust many of you reading this, satisfy the second criteria. For two reasons stated above, we just do not satisfy the first one. The trick is, most of the people borderlines get entangled with would not satisfy the second. This makes us a much more stable target of desire, so it often falls onto us to bear the pain of being abused because we cannot express childish reinforcement. To me, this brings great sadness that I know a person burdened with such a struggle, but also a great understanding of why I am caught up in this circle of pain.

This feels very accurate. Our BPDs require -- and demand -- that we re-calibrate our "normal" behavior to their dysfunctional levels. When we can't, or refuse to, we're accused of invalidating them, not caring about their needs, and being dismissive, inattentive, cold and abusive -- all accusations that have been leveled at me more times than I can count.

Usually, those "discussions" morphed into the circular arguments that we're all too familiar with. The so-called "resolution" for her always was her informing me that she "realized" that I just "wasn't like normal people," and "didn't feeling things the same way that normal people do," and that while "I'd never likely meet her needs in this area," she was "willing to accept it" because she loved me.

I was always left feeling like there was nothing I could do to please her or make her happy. I pleaded with her for constancy. I was left feeling helpless. I was left feeling like a failure as a partner. I never felt like she didn't love me -- I know that she did, deeply -- but I wasn't willing to accept the emotional abuse that she dished out, regardless of the love I know she has for me. Stubborn, I know. In my defense, I tried for 2 yrs, including taking her back after one real break-up in the middle.

I finally reached a point where I wasn't willing to accept the chasm between knowing she loved me, but feeling like she had no true appreciation for me as a partner. Admittedly, I feared that, if she truly felt that way about me, she'd eventually leave me -- who wouldn't? But, she never left. I finally realized that it probably wasn't so much about her leaving me, as about her making me afraid to leave her, by subtle (probably unconscious, I think) efforts to erode my confidence and self-esteem -- so I'd never leave her. A flawed strategy on her part, I'm saddened to say.

Would love it if you could share a link to the original article -- thanks again for sharing.

In bold.

I can so relate.

The lack of constancy.

Hell.

[Conundrum]

To enter into a relationship with an unstable person while still desiring a stable relationship. To become aware that you are involved in a relationship with an unstable person, yet still desiring a stable relationship. Is that singular desire for stability concomitantly unstable too?  Perhaps both individuals, the non and the pwBPD are not on stable footing, but what is solid ground when all things change and all is in motion?

We can analyze our pwBPD from now til evermore, but "what profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun."  They did not volitionally choose to become unstable--yet they are. The fates rolled their arbitrary dice and came up "snake eyes." Are their personalities routinely treatable... .the evidence is on this board.

We should accept the reality that they are unstable, but to tolerate instability is a choice. What are the lessons to be learned from our stories?  For me, the subjective answer is that any attempt to frame these uniquely unstable beings within a golden ratio will always produce a discordant result. It is a lesson that I have accepted, and interpret in the manner that I choose. I prefer my suffering in limited doses. 

":)esire can be compared to fire. If we grasp fire, what happens? Does it lead to happiness?

If we say: "Oh, look at that beautiful fire! Look at the beautiful colors! I love red and orange; they're my favorite colors," and then grasp it, we would find a certain amount of suffering entering the body. And then if we were to contemplate the cause of that suffering we would discover it was the result of having grasped that fire. On that information, we would hopefully, then let the fire go. Once we let fire go then we know that it is something not to be attached to.

This does not mean we have to hate it, or put it out. We can enjoy fire, can't we? It's nice having a fire, it keeps the room warm, but we do not have to burn ourselves in it." Ajahn Sumedho, in 'Teachings of a Buddhist Monk'

[eyvindr]

Conundrum --