Hard to be validating when daughter calls from jail

[qcarolr]

For those who are new to my story: my BPDDD27 is in jail for probation violation on three cases: DWAI-drugs (pot) in Feb2012; harassment (exbf in June - think meth was involved for both of them); violation of no-contact order and another harassment charge (Aug for tossing her drink on him and new gf). On 9/5 she plead guilty with 60 day home detention and 2 years probation sentence - could not tolerate idea of no friends at our house for 60 days - was pressuring to have friends at our house - continued to say NO. She started this in the courthouse hallway after the hearing. We had to be escorted out of the building to my car for her to get her backpack. She got a delay with deputy for home detention for a month to 'get a job and get the money'. I just wanted her to get it done.

They are all part of homeless community in mid-sized city near our home in smaller town. DD has lived between our home and street for past several months as we limited her friends being in our home. Severe impact on gd8 emotional state and isolation in neighborhood. DD had new homeless guy at our house during night of 9/9-9/10 who was leaving as I got home from work at 2pm; exbf shows up evening of 9/10 before start of 5 days rain storm that washed out 200 miles of creeks, canyons, rivers up and down 1/4 of our state - he was there again the next morning soaking wet. Dd spent most of evening out in rain with him. This triggered traumatic reaction in our gd8 - dh and i have custody since she was baby. There was verbally abusive episode in March with this bf and DD where we called police. Gd has expressed her strong fear of losing me if there is another altercation with DD and one of her friends in our home. I realize my own fears get triggered and I am loud in my response to DD. We need to keep safe home for gd. This has to be our priority. I have to let go of DD and her expressed needs.

I contacted local police about this situation morning of 9/11 and DD was arrested. Her next hearing is not until 10/24. I expect she will be released with time served (8 weeks since first harrassment arrest in June) into probation in good dual-dx program (probation w/drug & alcohol treatment and mental health treatment partnership). Program called PACE. Per phone call tonight DD says she has not rec'd her acceptance letter, though another woman in her dorm already got hers. My guess is she will get her notice on Monday. Praying for this.

The issue DD cannot accept right now is that we are not allowing her to return to our home. Have to keep priority on gd's needs for feeling safe. I do not want to bring civil legal actions. DD's life is complicated enough. There is limited housing, esp. with loss of many homes due to flooding. Dh and cannot afford to pay for her full rent somewhere at this time. I verifed this limited housing when talking with PACE field worker on Friday - she could not share details of DD's case, but I believe DD will be accepted. There is opening in transistion housing program at homeless shelter - DD has refused to go here in past for various reasons. Hope she accepts this time.

When DD brings up wanting to return to her room in our basement, and leaving the house to see frends - this is when our conversation becomes silence on my part. All I can think of are defensive or judgemental things to say. How traumtic this all is for GD. How she has refused for months to not have her friends here, though she was leaving the house to be with her friends on street or couch hopping since we kicked her out in May. How toxic her homeless friends are to her success with probation, and participating in the classes open to her. They do not support her need to be clean and sober.

DD also says there is no response to her requests in jail for medical treatment of yeast infection; dizziness (she blames high carb diet and her pre-diabetic profile); not getting application for classes; etc. I have been encouraging her to ask for what she needs. She claims no one cares.

What I am able to verify, and this is limited, is she has done some job skills classes; she is being given her psych meds.  Feels like she is not being honest to manipulate me to let her come home. THis does push my heart-buttons and anger buttons at same time.

She also asks for me to bring gd for a visit. gd does not want any contact with her mom. I tell DD that gd will not be forced to have contact with her. I know this must feel like abandonment to her. Feels like I am abandoning DD for me too.

Dd asked me to find her phone in her room and get a friend's phone # and call to ask him to visit in jail. Another exbf that is mostly homeless. All the homeless have issues - drinking/drugs/mental illness... .Do i call him or not?

It's so very hard to stay out of her way and let her figure it out. There are resources in the PACE program. I have to keep stepping back so she can choose her path. I cannot rescue her even if I try. It only delays what she needs to do for herself.

Would it motivate her if we find a way to provide her a place to live after she is successful in her probation for X months? (we are considering purchasing investment rental as part of dh's retirement goals - can look for one with seperate apartment. This cannot happen right away).

At least we stayed on the phone the whole 15 minutes tonight without DD hanging up on me. Guess the silence and apology for not knowing what to say - what does she want to hear? - worked a little. She was crying instead of angry. Does this show she is feeling her feelings instead of projecting them entirely onto me?

What else can I say to her?

qcr

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Reality]

She was crying instead of angry. Does this show she is feeling her feelings instead of projecting them entirely onto me?

qcr

Dear qcaroir,

Yes, the tears are the body's honest expression of grief and trauma.  When boundaries are in place, the containment allows the person to soften and just be. 

I notice the charges against her are drug-related: pot, methadone-use and drug friends.  Has there been recent discussion with your daughter about this pattern?

Maybe you could ask her questions on the phone.   How would change be possible for her so that she can find new friends?  What qualities does she like in people?  What are her values?  What are her boundaries?  Your daughter needs to know herself.  Encourage her to talk about herself.  Tell her this is a good opportunity for you to understand her better, as you can talk peacefully on the phone.  The drugs fill the emptiness she feels.  She needs to talk in order to define herself, just as we do here.  What would her ideal friend be like?   Her ideal boyfriend.

Is there a chaplain who could visit her and just listen?   

BPD is a gentle, sweet soul in trouble.  I am singing some good friends for her and one guardian angel for your daughter.

Reality

[qcarolr]

I notice the charges against her are drug-related: pot, methadone-use and drug friends.  Has there been recent discussion with your daughter about this pattern?

DD is in total denial in conversation with me that she has any substance abuse problem. She believes pot helps her anxiety (and migraine headaches) -- I have observed this positive effect when used in small amounts in the past.  The meth creates horrible skin issues for her and pumps up the raging. This also was evident when she convinced her meds provider (Nurse practitioner NP) to give her ADD stimulants. This was the effect of stimulants given for ADD when she was very young.

Maybe you could ask her questions on the phone.   How would change be possible for her so that she can find new friends?  What qualities does she like in people?  What are her values?  What are her boundaries?  Your daughter needs to know herself.  Encourage her to talk about herself.  Tell her this is a good opportunity for you to understand her better, as you can talk peacefully on the phone.  The drugs fill the emptiness she feels.  She needs to talk in order to define herself, just as we do here.  What would her ideal friend be like?   Her ideal boyfriend.

We have discussed some of these topics during her more stable times last year. About needing new friends. She does have some goals now that could lead to new friend/peer group. This would be a job. She needs support to get and keep a job. She just wants me to do this for her -- be her advocate. She has asked too much of my involvement in the jobs she searched out in past year - they were not a good fit for her and she could not hear me say this. She wants me to fill out the blank parts of her job applications - ie. work experience. There is very little. I tell her I cannot make this up for her. She gets angry with me. I walk away.

She has to accept working with a case manager that is not me. This is an area of conflict for me -- how to be a validating force in her life and not be the advocate/case manager. I am such a strong rescuer. I tend to move to the other extreme of withdrawal. This makes things worse, not better. So hard for me to find the middle - wisemind - and stay there for long.

You share some good questions here. I ask myself what is in the way for me to talk to her with these kind of questions. I really want her to do this with someone else - like in therapy. I feel so attacked by her. Even with her physically apart from me.

I also want to avoid triggering her somehow to not participate in the treatment plan being made available to her in jail, and in probation when she gets released. One of my fears is that i trigger her resistance to getting better. Am I taking on too much 'power' here?

Is there a chaplain who could visit her and just listen?

 :)D strongly claims to be an aethiest - ridicules my faith and gd's. This is hard for gd.

BPD is a gentle, sweet soul in trouble.  I am singing some good friends for her and one guardian angel for your daughter.

 Thank you Reality.


qcr

[Reality]

We have discussed some of these topics during her more stable times last year. About needing new friends. She does have some goals now that could lead to new friend/peer group. This would be a job. She needs support to get and keep a job. She just wants me to do this for her -- be her advocate. She has asked too much of my involvement in the jobs she searched out in past year - they were not a good fit for her and she could not hear me say this. She wants me to fill out the blank parts of her job applications - ie. work experience. There is very little. I tell her I cannot make this up for her. She gets angry with me. I walk away.

She has to accept working with a case manager that is not me. This is an area of conflict for me -- how to be a validating force in her life and not be the advocate/case manager. I am such a strong rescuer. I tend to move to the other extreme of withdrawal. This makes things worse, not better. So hard for me to find the middle - wisemind - and stay there for long.

qcr

qcaroir:

I was thinking that those questions might be helpful just when talking to your daughter.  You know, have her talk about herself and her interests and her values.  You are functioning as a listener only.

Same idea for the chaplain.  I don't think it matters if your daughter is an atheist.  Just thinking that sometimes chaplains are great people, who have awesome people skills.  Might be someone with whom she can talk.

Just keep being the strong staying point for her.  With a firm rampart around you.

Reality

[Being Mindful]

Hello qc,

May I suggest and I hope I am not being too harsh... .it sounds to me that you are working harder than she is in her recovery. It seems to me that you are expending much energy into the what ifs... .PACE, future housing, homeless friends etc. I would like to suggest that you take this energy and pour it into yourself, your husband and gd. Let your dd feel the consequences of her decisions. Don't worry about the homeless friend and asking him to call her via your daughter's cell phone. Release yourself from these details that will not make or break your daughter's recovery.

I worry about you and hope that you can let go a wee bit. I recognize you in me a while back. My mind would swirl around over and over, desperate to cure my daughter, to take care of her, speculate thinking the little things would help her. In the end, I had to let go, change myself by pouring myself into really, really learning and practicing. Looking at the ways in which I was not being helpful in her recovery.

Peace to you qc. I wish you some calm and peace.

Being Mindful

[qcarolr]

Being Mindful -

One thing I am doing is leaving my cell phone in my purse - I will consider taking only one call a day and have told her this. So now she does not call 3-4 times (it leaves a short vm of the operator recording re: accept call from jail). If I do not answer 1-2 tries, she tries later. Seems she has access to phones 2-3 times a day.

So if I am not feeling up to it, I don't have to talk to her.

I does take a lot of practice to really stop the endless thinking about DD's needs. Even knowing that she is being cared for, though certainly she thinks not very well, I still worry. I need to be reminded that she is OK. Reminded that only she can choose to change the direction of her life.

Talking to her - she blames me for her being there and I do not know how to respond. I know that saying 'how it is' does not work very well. She keeps focusing the final incident that I filed the complaint on for her to be in jail this time. I have tried to say - it was an accumulation of stuff over the past year.

I am not going to call anyone on her behalf. Her friends know she is in jail. It is up to them to value that r/s enough to visit. What would be a validating way to say this to her? Maybe they are on lightly connected, not a deep friendship.

I orderd her a care package of protein foods today. She should get it tomorrow. This should help her feel better.

Gotta go. gd is calling.

qcr

[qcarolr]

Update: DD called this evening. Put on speaker - dh and gd both said hi. Good for DD to just hear their voices. She sounded much more grounded tonight - asked to just hear a friendly voice. So I asked about her life there. What she does each day. Who she talks to. Where she is in the building -- I can picture her there now.

From my heart - I will text her friend that she would like a letter or visit. I will send DD a letter with public defender phone # and their hours. It is a free call from the jail. I will send her some family photos, including the dogs. This is how to lean into her heart.

More at peace tonight as she is more at peace. This is about being in calm-energy, regulated place myself. This can help whoever I am with join me there. Instead of it being like a nuclear reactor with new fuel rods being inserted. Dh's analogy - hydrogen and oxygen joining to create water, that supports life.

qcr

[Being Mindful]

Being Mindful -

One thing I am doing is leaving my cell phone in my purse - I will consider taking only one call a day and have told her this. So now she does not call 3-4 times (it leaves a short vm of the operator recording re: accept call from jail). If I do not answer 1-2 tries, she tries later. Seems she has access to phones 2-3 times a day.

So if I am not feeling up to it, I don't have to talk to her.

I does take a lot of practice to really stop the endless thinking about DD's needs. Even knowing that she is being cared for, though certainly she thinks not very well, I still worry. I need to be reminded that she is OK. Reminded that only she can choose to change the direction of her life.

Talking to her - she blames me for her being there and I do not know how to respond. I know that saying 'how it is' does not work very well. She keeps focusing the final incident that I filed the complaint on for her to be in jail this time. I have tried to say - it was an accumulation of stuff over the past year.

I am not going to call anyone on her behalf. Her friends know she is in jail. It is up to them to value that r/s enough to visit. What would be a validating way to say this to her? Maybe they are on lightly connected, not a deep friendship.

I orderd her a care package of protein foods today. She should get it tomorrow. This should help her feel better.

Gotta go. gd is calling.

qcr

Ahhh blame. What I did that worked is that one of my boundaries was that as soon as DD started to blame me, I ended the conversation. I would say something like this.

DD, You must feel really xxx to be in this situation. I would love to talk to you more later when you do not blame me for your xxxxx. How about we talk at 7:00 tonight?

This boundary worked really well. I was not to blame for her actions. Each and every time she started to blame me, I ended the conversation. That was a value based boundary for me. Blaming me is an attempt to hold me accountable for her actions, and her not accepting she has free will to decide her own outcome.

We can hold ourselves accountable for our parts in our relationships. In the end though, we cannot be responsible for actions another person does.

[qcarolr]

Being mindful - that is a good boudnary about not accepting the blaming. Especially with the validating statement first. I am working on my guilt when there are drops of truth in some of her blaming comments - brings up old stuff from the past that takes over my thinking.

I read a Poll about memories this morning that helps me to understand the brain mechanics of how this process works. There is so much neuroscience in all the new books and articles I have been reading about BPD, validation and parenting sensitive/difficult kids this past year. This really connects with my intellectual strengths. It is also making a better connection is 'trouble shooting' our family situation with my dh. He is a great probelm solver in the physical world. This science is giving us a common language to solve problems in our relationship world. And that is what human life is all about, at least to me. Being in relationship with each other in healthy ways that build up each person.

My r/s with DD is the hardest as she is often is just not available to reciprocate.

So my plan. Any detail that could be triggering I am writing in a letter to her. Gives us both time to sort our feelings and thoughts out in solitude. On the phone I will try to keep it light, and talk about what she is doing, what we are doing, with a focus on that particular day. I am taking one call a day from her when dh is home to be with gd.

qcr

[qcarolr]

I got a letter from DD yesterday - she was trying hard to contain her anger and fear while she said she needed to live with us until another option is available. Then she called. Talked on phone with DD. We both stayed calm and talked about her desire to return to live in our home temporarily when released from jail. I spoke of my need for her to accept the shelter housing program. Talked full 15 minutes and it went by quickly.

Then my nose started bleeding as it has the past 4 days after talking with her. After an hour dh and gd went with me to ER. Blood pressure really high - came down some while I was there. They treated nosebleed, though had another short one this morning - part of healing I guess.

I wrote to DD today - put my letter with gd's drawing for her mom. Gd actually said hi to her mom on speakerphone last night and night before. DD needs our love - and somewhere else to live.

Here is my letter to her today.

Hi DD,

I am going to speak direct to you about my feelings. I love you deeply - always have and always will.

I have to keep myself healthy so I can be here in the best way for all my family.

I agree - you deserve to be out of the snow and have a place to go, night and day.

There is a pattern to the angry times inthe past 2 years. Every  6 weeks or so. This is about a long perod of time, more than the single day before this last arrest.

Dh and I have to keep this house feeling safe for gd. We are doing what needs to be done for her best chance in life.

Dh and I are working to own a place where you can live. When you are able to contribute to the rent you can. We need time to make this happen. We will know more about how to pay for this by November.

We have hope that you are able to find the courage to accept trying the program at the Shelter temporarily.

My blood pressure is really high each time I talk on the phone with you. I am having nosebleeds. I need help from your choices about where you are willing to live.

You can do this. I have faith in you to create a better life with the help of those who DO CARE -- give the community resources a chance.

Love ALWAYS - mom



qcr

[heronbird]

Hi, Oh how hard, such a difficult painful time there.

I know you have said before but I cant remember, how old is gd? what does she feel about her mum?

You are so wize and have given me so much support, I hope things get better and easier for your situation.

I saw in Valeries book that she says about talking to them on the phone, and how not to judge or you will get a good bye and no more phone calls, it helped me a lot.

Thats great that she has phoned you for so long. But the nose bleed is not good is it, isnt it funny all the things our body does to cope, I got tinnitus for my stress.

I hope things work out better and your dd finds somewhere to live and starts to make good choices.

I told my dd plain and simple, she cant come home because I cant have anyone living here who does drugs. Id love to have her back but as everyone on here reminded me, it would be a nightmare so no no no

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

Update: Had a more positive call yesterday, at least until the issues around our custody of gd came up.

DD said she is considering the transistion housing option. Dh and I are working on a plan to help her get longer term housing, but this will take some time. Told her at least a couple of months. We are looking for a condo to purchase as a retirement investment. She can live there with rent based on her income (standard is 1/3 of her income). The lawyer for SSI has encourged us to do this to give her some stability. She does not currently qualify for public assisatance. This may change if DD can continue in a recovery path after jail.

There will be boundaries put into lease. If she cannot manage this, we will give 30 days notice to vacate and rent it to someone else. This lowers the risk to a tolerable level. Being on a lease with her was too high a risk for us.

We need to get our own boundaries in place to stay out of her day to day life as her landlords/parents. We may need some help from you all in figuring this out and sticking to it. Dh and I have lots of enabling patterns to overcome.

qcr

[lovesjazz]

Have been reading your posts. I have to agree with some other comments. Do you think it is a good idea to get involved with being her landlord?  Are you providing a safety net for her?  Are you sending a message that you are bailing her out of her solving her living situation?  If she isnt able to stick with boundaries in your home  will she be able to do it in your apartment? Just trying to give you something to think about.

[qcarolr]

Doing the same thing over and over expecting different result = insanty

Homelessness the past 4 years, even while "living" in our home, has not made a difference in any outcomes. Housing is the number ONE priority for getting homeless to transistion off the street -- if it is going to happen at all.

At a community service fair at my church today, I spoke to a rep. from the homeless outreach non-profit. They know DD. The gentlman said getting housing is what got him off the street. Gives the bare basic level of survival need -- the rest can come after that.

I have also gotten support for assisting with basic housing from the probation program, from the SSI lawyer, from the mental health center. They are all extremely frustrated by the lack of availablity and funding for housing in our area. The wait lists for assisted housing are years long. They canceled the lists and do lotteries once  year now.

If DD cannot follow the rules of the lease, then she will have 30 days notice to leave. She will know we mean what we say about this. Then we can easily find a tenant that can pay the full rent.

We have really thought this through. Now to find something we can manage to costs for. And there is hope today in a town about 20 miles away. She will need a more expensive regional bus pass, which she may get some help with, but the cost is thousands of dollares less invest.

I will keep you all posted.

qcr

For DD, she needs housing first before she can manage to work with vocational couselors to get a job, and case managers to get independent living skills. She is doing some of these things for first time while in jail.

[Thursday]

I understand your desire to provide housing for your daughter and it makes sense that it would be hard to accomplish anything in terms of work and managing your life successfully when you have no place to feel safe, to sleep unbothered, etc.

So long as you have a contract with her (legal) and some ground rules and (important!) as long as you can enforce an eviction this might be a move that solves the conundrum you are in with not being able to invite your DD back into your home and her and circumstances not being in a good place to find anything for herself. And I'm glad you are finding some hope in this.

I'm sorry you are feeling so down and depressed. We just think the world of you here and I hope you can hold onto that a bit as your work through current dilemmas.

thursday

I can see you are working double triple overtime for your daughter's sake. Oh, how I wish some peace for you.

[Being Mindful]

Doing the same thing over and over expecting different result = insanty

Homelessness the past 4 years, even while "living" in our home, has not made a difference in any outcomes. Housing is the number ONE priority for getting homeless to transistion off the street -- if it is going to happen at all.

At a community service fair at my church today, I spoke to a rep. from the homeless outreach non-profit. They know DD. The gentlman said getting housing is what got him off the street. Gives the bare basic level of survival need -- the rest can come after that.

I have also gotten support for assisting with basic housing from the probation program, from the SSI lawyer, from the mental health center. They are all extremely frustrated by the lack of availablity and funding for housing in our area. The wait lists for assisted housing are years long. They canceled the lists and do lotteries once  year now.

If DD cannot follow the rules of the lease, then she will have 30 days notice to leave. She will know we mean what we say about this. Then we can easily find a tenant that can pay the full rent.

We have really thought this through. Now to find something we can manage to costs for. And there is hope today in a town about 20 miles away. She will need a more expensive regional bus pass, which she may get some help with, but the cost is thousands of dollares less invest.

I will keep you all posted.

qcr

For DD, she needs housing first before she can manage to work with vocational couselors to get a job, and case managers to get independent living skills. She is doing some of these things for first time while in jail.

Qcr,

I want to help, we really I do so I hope that I am not being too hard. I'm concerned for you, your gd, your dh and your dd.

How is providing your dd a place to live any different than what you have done in the past?

Why are you working so hard to find the solution? Can you think about the solution beginning with your dd?

You can work to change you, not her.

It doesn't surprise me that you have gotten support from SSI, the mental health center etc. They want you to rescue dd. They want someone other than themselves to rescue your dd.

How will your dd "know what we mean what we say about this" with regards to a 30 days notice. How is this any different than what you have tried already?

I'm so sorry qcr. I know what a struggle this is. I see you in me a few years ago, so desperate that the answered resided in me. The only power you have qcr is within yourself. Your dd has to find the power within herself for her next steps.

I hope I am not being too hard. I see your struggle in your own words qcr. We can help. Can you think about sitting back for a day or two. Your dd is safe for now. Take some time for you. Read back through all of your posts. Think about is there something different you can do than what you have been doing. Sometimes I think you are writing here to convince yourself and us as to what the answer is.

I continue to pray for you qcr.

Is there something different that we can do to support you on this journey in hopes for a different outcome?

Wishing you peace qcr. I care and want to help.

Being Mindful

[six]

I am hearing Being Mindful's point even though it is a difficult one.  My mother's instinct would also have been to try to solve her housing situation and provide some kind of a solution for her. 

I also agree with Being Mindful's comment that it sounds like you are working harder than she is for her recovery.  She seems focused on what you have done wrong (sending her to jail) as opposed to thinking about what she needs to change.

Perhaps the answer lies with giving her a six-month period in public housing to prove to you that she can live a functional life, which includes getting a job and being responsible and drug-free.  If she is able to do this for a period, maybe the next step would be for you to buy the condo and become her landlord.

I agree that as much as you want to see her in a safe living situation, it sounds like you might be giving her the tools to make the same mistakes she made before.  Also, in most states it is very difficult to evict a tenant and usually takes at least a year.  You might want to find out how this would work in your state.

At the end of the day, we've got to help them stand on their own two feet and that means living with the discomfort of their bad choices.  You made a great start in that direction when you refused to put up with  criminals being invited into your home and property.

[Reality]

Hmmmmm... .where is the wise mind in all of this? 

In extreme trauma, any cognition is a comfort.  It stabilizes the emotions; hence, the comfort.

When one member of the family is dysfunctional, the whole family becomes dysfunctional. 

The family needs to recover.  Short-term solutions become long-term dysfunctional coping mechanisms without the traumatized family realizing it. 

Validating feelings and setting boundaries.  Hmmmm... .

I don't know. 

IMHO, family therapy is critical.  Good family therapy.  If not available, strength to erect boundaries calmly for each family member.  Strength to stay close to one's body signals.  Strength to say firmly and without budging that dh needs to be much more responsible.  He needs encouragement to take a strong role.  He needs to talk to dd.  He needs to help more with gd. 

Just ideas. 

Reality

[lovesjazz]

Qcarolr,

I hope you see we are all trying to help. You love your dd so. We feel your pain. Try to take some of the advice given. You deserve a break. Reread the book... .I cant make everything all better.  We all have been in your shoes in some way and know it is so hard.

[qcarolr]

Qcarolr,

I hope you see we are all trying to help. You love your dd so. We feel your pain. Try to take some of the advice given. You deserve a break. Reread the book... .I cant make everything all better.  We all have been in your shoes in some way and know it is so hard.

I have read this over, esp the chapter on adult kids. The examples just do not fit the complex situation I have - at least in my current state of understanding. Was not much help right now.

qcr

[Dibdob59]

Qcr

Overwhelming fear, despair, guilt, desperation  ... .all these factors drive us to think for our beloved BPDs when we believe they cannot think clearly or rationally for themselves. When the stakes seem so high, all the theoretical learning seems invalid and we are afraid not to act, even when it goes against all that we have learnt.  The visceral fear that keeps us awake at night, the churning stomach that accompanies us all day every day, the thoughts like " what a blessing it would be if I could just do this for her and let her know I care" -  I can relate to all of this.

I also understand your belief that housing may be the turning point for your daughter and that this may start her in the direction of a true change in her life.  I pray for this to be so for you and your family.  Which of us would not want to believe this.

But ... .

You know her best and love her best.  Be careful and be kind to yourself in your journey to love, support and help your DD.

Dibdob

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

IMHO, family therapy is critical.  Good family therapy.  If not available, strength to erect boundaries calmly for each family member.  Strength to stay close to one's body signals.  Strength to say firmly and without budging that dh needs to be much more responsible.  He needs encouragement to take a strong role.  He needs to talk to dd.  He needs to help more with gd. 

Just ideas. 

Reality

Yes, family therapy would have helped during the past 25 years. Dh still says all therapy is a waste of time. Nothing will come of it - not changes in DD. He refuses to see that he needs to change. He cannot get out of his head, or his own needs. Looks so much to others to meet his needs, and believes he is meeting his own needs. There has been improvement in our communication -- it is not all bad. He is depressed and stress too, and won't seek any outside help. His suggestion last night was we should sell our house and move far out into the country so as not to keep disturbing the neighbors! He is doing good at work, and maybe can just live there!

I am angry today. I need to let go of DD and let her figure this out before I have a stroke and die. We need to let DD be on her own for several months while we search out longer term housing options, if she can stick to her court requirements. I have to get out of my ruminations. I know this, and am unable to do it. I am seeing my T tomorrow and also gd's T tomorrow for support.

If DD offers T with her when she is released, then I will do this with her. I believe I am alive today because I have been trying to recover for past 25 years - bipolar, PTSD, ... .Feels like I have made no progress TODAY. I know this is a thinking error - I have made much progress. I can be here for gd. Dh and DD both struggle with my love-based parenting attitudes with Gd. She is my sanity focus.

I believe DD is sincere in her intentions to do what is asked of her by the courts. She believes she can be a positive influence in our household. And yes, this may be possible for a short piece of time. There needs to be some length of recovery for her, say 6 months, before repairs in her r/s with gd will be safe. DD will not understand this from where she is right now. I hope this can come with time.

I am in such internal conflict between what I 'know' is the right path, and the compassion I feel when I step into her shoes as she sit on her bunk in jail. When she is released she has to immediately leave the property - will there be no one to meet her? She has gained weight and fears the clothes she wore to jail will not fit when she leaves. She does not even have a coat, phone, ID, benefit card for her food stamps/money, bus passes. It will be cold, and likely snowy.

There is no one that will talk to me about what is going on. DD does not seem to know what to expect at her next hearing - does not know what is going on. SHe qualified for  mentor program, but all mentors are still in training. The soonest one will be available is 5 weeks. Public defenders are overloaded and do not usually meet their clients until the day of court in the courtroom. And she will be hustling around meeting with 90% of the defendants there. I have watched this with DD too many times. All the lawyer could say was that there is a conflict of interest since I am the one that turned her in for no-contact violation.

DD keeps saying I just do not understand what I have done to mess up her life. I am in conflict about this in my heart.

Perhaps the answer lies with giving her a six-month period in public housing to prove to you that she can live a functional life, which includes getting a job and being responsible and drug-free.  If she is able to do this for a period, maybe the next step would be for you to buy the condo and become her landlord.

I agree that as much as you want to see her in a safe living situation, it sounds like you might be giving her the tools to make the same mistakes she made before.  Also, in most states it is very difficult to evict a tenant and usually takes at least a year.  You might want to find out how this would work in your state.

At the end of the day, we've got to help them stand on their own two feet and that means living with the discomfort of their bad choices.  You made a great start in that direction when you refused to put up with  criminals being invited into your home and property.

There is no public housing for DD due to her legal record until she is acitively involved in treatment. She will be denied, if she gets selected in the lottery to apply. She has missed that window for this year.

Our state has 3-day eviction process. I have been prepared to do this a couple of times, and have a lawyer that advises me on this. His take right now is that DD was gone more than she was here, so she is not a tenant in a legal sense. Also, can give 30 days notice for a tenant to move out. We have let DD know she cannot come back and it will be more than 30 days.


My ability to find that wisemind place is compromised greatly right now. And I feel that my support people don't know what to do with me to get me back there. I am so tired.

I do appreciate ALL the replies here  - the hard ones are not harsh. They are filled with love and care and good thoughts. Please keep being here for me so I do not get lost.

qcr

[six]

qcarolr

I will just share something with you in the hope that it provides some comfort and/or support.

my situation is not the same as yours, but I think it is instructive about how we mothers approach the problems with our kids

I have been wanting DS26 to move out of the house bec his presence here is destructive emotionally to me and my other kids.  he finally moved out last week.  I thought I would be celebrating, but instead,

all I can do is walk around the house feeling bad and guilty that he is lonely, by himself, with no friends, and nobody cooking dinner for him. 

my dh, the voice of reason, says, this is the best thing you could do for him, make him stand on his own two feet, let him learn that if you act badly, you are going to end up on your own without people supporting you, etc.

but my mommy instinct still wants to run over to his aptmt with dinner, and other comforts to make him feel loved.  I also feel guilty for my role in the person he turned out to be

I am sharing this with you bec I hear in your posts that same guilt and that same sense of wanting to make things work out for your dd.  at a point this summer, I asked Ds what he would do if he were in my place.  how should I solve the problem of wanting to be "there" for him but wanting myself and the children in my house to live in a healthy place. he said he didn't know.  but I think it was good for him to understand the dilemma I am in.

you are also in a dilemma.  I didn't realize that your dd would not be eligible for public housing at all. is she able to show you any kind of growth, responsibility, true remorse, motivation for change? does she understand why it is so dangerous for you to agree to let her come home?

on another thread, one of the members described a miraculous change that occurred when he went to court with his son and the charges were dropped.  I hope you experience your own miracle and that a solution comes to you that works for everyone.

[Reality]

Dear qcaroir,

Just to let you know that today I will be singing as heartily as possible for guardian angels to watch over you, your daughter, your dh and your gd. 

Listen closely to your heart, be strong in your mind, validate your own feelings and let them be, let time open the next door... .

Your honest sharing gives all of us a closer touch to our own struggles.

Reality

[peaceplease]

qcr,

I am sorry that housing is so difficult to obtain for your dd.  I understand about not being eligible for public housing, as my dd was not for awhile, either.  However, she was fortunate to start off with another program.  Now, she is moving into house through a section 8 voucher.

When is her hearing?  What is the mentor program?

[qcarolr]

What do you feel/say/do when you BPDkid (grown up one) tells you things won't work out as I think they will. Yet the staff at programs have told me exactly the opposite? And DD is saying her lawyer is the one that told her.

So DD called this evening angry after her lawyer was there. That she cannot do the dual-dx program without an 'address' - ie. living in our home or an apartment. living homeless or at the shelter program will not count FOR HER. Doesn't matter what the PACE program person told me is their experience with other people. The lawyer will no longer talk to me since I turned DD in on violations of probation.

How do I get past this compulsion to find out the truth? Does it even matter to me, dh, gd?

My truth is DD cannot be at our home. This was confirmed again meeting with gd's T. She is the only one that really gets our situation fully. And understands what a rock I am squashed beneath. She invited me back on Friday to talk more about my triggers for feeling worthless no matter what direction things go. The loss of DD - sense of failure vs. loss of gd's trust and gd's sense of safety.

Dh and I have decided to put a hold on the condo idea for now. Wait to see how things turn out for DD at her hearing. Do I go to hearing -- I do want to know what is going on, if she is being released, etc. Do I drop off her stuff at jail before she is released (clothes, coat, phone, wallet, etc.).

Then dh and I are expected to drive her to her SSI hearing on 10/28. Just don't know if this is a good thing for DD to be in a calm, controllable place to hear and answer questions. I think I will ask the SSI lawyer to write to the jail commander in case DD is not released.

I do want to carry this feeing of responsibility anymore. Yet I love my DD. I do not want to shut her out of my life. Yet, I feel a need for survival that includes this option.

Think I will just go to bed.

qcr

[Thursday]

QcarolR-

What do you feel/say/do when you BPDkid (grown up one) tells you things won't work out as I think they will. Yet the staff at programs have told me exactly the opposite? And DD is saying her lawyer is the one that told her.

So DD called this evening angry after her lawyer was there. That she cannot do the dual-dx program without an 'address' - ie. living in our home or an apartment. living homeless or at the shelter program will not count FOR HER. Doesn't matter what the PACE program person told me is their experience with other people. The lawyer will no longer talk to me since I turned DD in on violations of probation.

I am suspicious that your DD is trying her best to have you change your mind about her not living with you. The above sounds and feels like one of the ways my SD has tried to manipulate outcomes. If I recall past discussions, you've said your DD is not a BPD who lies incessantly but I think that is what is going on.

So, what would I say or do? I would do my best to practice patience. I imagine this is a hard thing to do when your DD is struggling and upset.

I too have felt this compulsion to find out the truth. It has honestly done me no good in my life. The truth was always revealed later no matter what I did to uncover it, to turn things over and over and examine them fully, to be a sleuth. The truth is simply waiting over there.

As for your question about whether or not to go to her hearing. I say yes and bring along what she will need if she is released. Are you worried about a confrontation in the courtroom? Is there any way you can tell yourself to stay aloof about the outcomes, let the court officers do what they need to do if your daughter gets angry and/or dysregulated? Is there any way you can convince your husband to do this without you? I am still suggesting that he step in to take over some of this for you. When you talk about having a stroke I can hear that loud and clear. I have felt that worry over my own health, mental and physical.

I am sorry you are feeling so anxious. This is a time to slow yourself and distract yourself.

Thinking of you and wishing you a measure of peace today.

Thursday

[lovesjazz]

Qcarolr,

I hear panic... .the compulsion to know the truth willl exhaust you. I was that way... .now I dont want to know.  It does no good. Try something different... .step back and be one who is on the outside looking in... .not trying to get in.

Tell dd you love her, but you are stepping back since trying to help isnt working. So hard, I know. Our ds is telling us all sorts of lies... .I can feel it. Buf probing makes things worse. Take care of gd and have dh go to court hearing. Just my 2 cents.

[qcarolr]

Things are more clear this morning.

I printed the page from the Homeless Shelter's transistional housing program and am mailing this to her with a statement that this is an opportunity for her to have the address she needs for the probation program. Also that I care deeply and hope she is able to work on her goals to be independent.

I am not going to answer her calls for a few days, then decide if I will block my prepaid account. She can write me letters - she has sent several letters.

You are all so correct in seeking truth. This is the same advice my faith gives me, when I can quiet myself enough to hear it. Yes, the truth is simply waiting out there. It will be revealed to me as I live my life, and DD lives hers.

I too have felt this compulsion to find out the truth. It has honestly done me no good in my life. The truth was always revealed later no matter what I did to uncover it, to turn things over and over and examine them fully, to be a sleuth. The truth is simply waiting over there.

So dh and I will look for a stoage unit large enough to hold all of DD's stuff. We will let her know we are willing to pay for it up to one year. I will drop off some clothing, cell phone, her wallet and the storage unit information and key to be put into her property at the jail. It will be there for her whenever she is released.

I will write to her lawyer about the SSI hearing with the contact info for DD's SSi lawyer. Will suggest a mentor that can go with her to this hearing be located to take her, if she is released. Otherwise they need to find a way for her to attend while in custody. There is too much conflict for me to do this with her.  The only other optoin would be for dh to take her, and I think he is willing.

Dh and I made a strong statement to gd last night that her mom will not be allowed in our home or on our property. She visibly relaxed and took her shower, did her homework with enthusiasm, and got to watch her bedtime cartoon. Up with purpose today for school.

Only real choice for my survival is to focus on my self care and gd's needs. This is really life or death for me. The T yesterday made this statement at the end of our session when my deep deep personal struggles with attachment and loss surfaced. She also noted that they came up in the last 5 minutes - as has been the case for 20 years in therapy. When I did focus on these deep fears with a pdoc back in 1991 it was not safe for me - he did not beleive the true fears I had of myself - he could not understand how I came to overdose to escape the uncontrolled pain. I am fearful of going here again in therapy - it does not feel safe. And living how I am now day to day also does not feel safe. As the T (gd's T) said: this is a matter of life and death for me. DD is caught up in the middle triggering so many of this in me.

Have to find the safety and courage and strength to work through this. I want to survive -- I want to THRIVE. I am worth it. I am worth it. I am worthy of love. I am worthy of love. I a worthy of love. My mantra for today.

qcr

[Thursday]

Dh and I made a strong statement to gd last night that her mom will not be allowed in our home or on our property. She visibly relaxed and took her shower, did her homework with enthusiasm, and got to watch her bedtime cartoon. Up with purpose today for school.

GD needs to feel safe and after so much that has made her feel unsafe you and your husband need this commitment to her to be truth. It is an extreme statement and must really hurt to say this out loud.

Your mental health, physical health, spiritual health depends on this commitment. And I honestly believe some good can come of it for your DD as well. And sadly, so sadly, if your DD will not take responsibility for herself and the only other option (you taking responsibility for her) makes it too risky for every other person in the family, you end up in a position of having to choose. And that is just very, very hard.

All of these hard things... .why do they get thrown in our paths? Because we can learn from them. Can we ever view these challenges from a place of wisemind? I still react like a terrier sometimes. Sometimes I can be a pillar of concrete. Sometimes I just have to laugh and sometimes I come here to vent.

For now you have made some solid moves. I hope this pulling away won't be too much like slow Velcro, one difficult and sticky loop at a time. And I hope focus on GD will lighten everyone's hearts.

Thursday