When will I ever learn?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

After all the drama a week ago (think it got moved to the undecided board) we agreed to be "friends".  To him that means just check in on me once in awhile etc.  Well he starts texting me Friday night.  At first it was light hearted and actually kind of fun but then he started asking me to come over. It was about sex.  I said no... .can't do that.  He said I understand but the desire is still there.  I said his desire was "generic".  (With a  .  Did not say it in a nasty way.)  Meaning it wasn't about me.  He went nuts.  Highly insulted.  F you.  (Repeatedly.)  On and on.  I "get close to him" just to rip on him.  I am trying to hurt him because he dumped me.  I am being a vindictive bhit.  Why can't I let go?  This is the same crap I put up with in the rs. 

[Emelie Emelie]

After all the drama a week ago (think it got moved to the undecided board) we agreed to be "friends".  To him that means just check in on me once in awhile etc.  Well he starts texting me Friday night.  At first it was light hearted and actually kind of fun but then he started asking me to come over. It was about sex.  I said no... .can't do that.  He said I understand but the desire is still there.  I said his desire was "generic".  (With a  .  Did not say it in a nasty way.)  Meaning it wasn't about me.  He went nuts.  Highly insulted.  F you.  (Repeatedly.)  On and on.  I "get close to him" just to rip on him.  I am trying to hurt him because he dumped me.  I am being a vindictive bhit.  Why can't I let go?  This is the same crap I put up with in the rs. 

[bpdspell]

Emelie,

Every time you make yourself available to this man you are putting yourself in the position to be ragged on by someone who doesn't think the way that you do.

This is the sickness of BPD. If you want to be in this man's life you will have to learn to accept ALL parts of him including the parts that are unpleasant. Particularly emotional dsyregulation.

The path to friendship with an ex is a long one and a particularly difficult one with a mentally ill person due to their capacity to lack reciprocity. You will be receiving very little from a "friendship exchange" with a BPD ex.

Venting is cathartic but that in of itself can keep you in a position of indecision and inertia.

You have to be honest with yourself. What do you really want from this man?

Spell

[Emelie Emelie]

 

Emelie,

Every time you make yourself available to this man you are putting yourself in the position to be ragged on by someone who doesn't think the way that you do.

This is the sickness of BPD. If you want to be in this man's life you will have to learn to accept ALL parts of him including the parts that are unpleasant. Particularly emotional dsyregulation.

The path to friendship with an ex is a long one and a particularly difficult one with a mentally ill person due to their capacity to lack reciprocity. You will be receiving very little from a "friendship exchange" with a BPD ex.

Venting is cathartic but that in of itself can keep you in a position of indecision and inertia.

You have to be honest with yourself. What do you really want from this man?

Spell

That's a great question.  I don't really know what I want from him.  Except for what I can't have with him... .a healthy relationship.  I did want validation... .just to know that I was important and he did love me.  But I think I've gotten that.  I know I was important to him and still am in some way.  I don't want to rekindle the rs.  Or more accurately I know I can't rekindle the relationship.  I've had the opportunity to tell him how I felt about the break up.  I guess I still just miss him a lot.  I don't think I've seen him in almost two months. And sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with missing him.  (Typing that starts the tears again.)  I still worry about him a lot as well.  I know he'll be okay.  Especially once he meets someone else.  (And I do not want to be around for that.)  I am really trying to let go.  But I'm not doing a very good job of it.

[Ironmanrises]

Emelie,

Every time you make yourself available to this man you are putting yourself in the position to be ragged on by someone who doesn't think the way that you do.

This is the sickness of BPD. If you want to be in this man's life you will have to learn to accept ALL parts of him including the parts that are unpleasant. Particularly emotional dsyregulation.

The path to friendship with an ex is a long one and a particularly difficult one with a mentally ill person due to their capacity to lack reciprocity. You will be receiving very little from a "friendship exchange" with a BPD ex.

Venting is cathartic but that in of itself can keep you in a position of indecision and inertia.

You have to be honest with yourself. What do you really want from this man?

Spell

That's a great question.  I don't really know what I want from him.  Except for what I can't have with him... .a healthy relationship.  I did want validation... .just to know that I was important and he did love me.  But I think I've gotten that.  I know I was important to him and still am in some way.  I don't want to rekindle the rs.  Or more accurately I know I can't rekindle the relationship.  I've had the opportunity to tell him how I felt about the break up.  I guess I still just miss him a lot.  I don't think I've seen him in almost two months. And sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with missing him.  (Typing that starts the tears again.)  I still worry about him a lot as well.  I know he'll be okay.  Especially once he meets someone else.  (And I do not want to be around for that.)  I am really trying to let go.  But I'm not doing a very good job of it.

In bold.

NC will help protect you from that very possible scenario.

I do not know anything at all of what my ex is doing... .

That is due to me going NC as soon as she left me.

It hurts... .

But seeing things that i do not need to see... .

Will hurt me far more.

Hang in there Emelie.

[bpdspell]

That's a great question.  I don't really know what I want from him.  

Emelie,

I'm going to push you towards the direction of insight. You owe it to yourself to be honest and I think you do know what you want. Perhaps by not answering your own question directly you're putting yourself in that fearful place of indecision.  

I've been in your shoes. Wanting to be missed, validated and not wanting to cut the cord for good. It's and extremely painful place to exist because it keeps us stuck in magic pixie dust of the BPD fantasy, delusion and the secret desire of wanting unrequited love to work itself out.

Your ex doesn't need you to worry about him; he's a grown man not a child. And your ex cannot validate you; particularly because he's sick in the head and heart.


Only you can do that for yourself.

Your ex has BPD... .a serious mental illness where he lacks the capacity to relate to you as an emotional adult. That means friendships, husbands, wives, and friends with benefits situations will lack reciprocity due to his lack of empathy.

Emelie. Decision making is hard but do you love yourself enough to take yourself out of this unpleasantness? All of your thoughts seem to focus on him, what he's doing, how he's feeling with very little regard for your own feelings. What about you? Aren't you important enough to be number one in your own life? Or do you believe that its his job to make you feel important?

One of my favorite sayings is that we all get up from the table when we're full. But you can't make yourself available to a mentally ill person and then wonder why he's not being kind, nice, caring in a consistent and loving way. Like I mentioned earlier if you're going to accept your ex; you're going to have to accept all of him. You cannot out love a mental illness by modeling "niceness" and "kindness." BPD isn't that easily fixable.

And our love cannot fix a disease that has been living inside of a person way before we entered the picture.

Please take care of yourself. Do your best to see this person for who he fully is and not the person you wish he could be.

Spell

[patientandclear]

Here's my take.  It's evident to me that he enormously regrets his decision to end the r/s.  For whatever reason many pwBPD cannot just step up & say "hey, I think I made a mistake & I'd like to take back that thing I said about how I want us to be over," he can't quite say those words.  His substitute words are "come over for sex."

He has enormous fear of rejection & is going as far as he can without feeling like he's putting himself completely out there.

Your response -- "your desire is generic " -- sounds pleasant and teasing to you, but to him, is a repudiation of very serious, intense feelings he has for you.  Non-generic feelings.  Imagine yourself, scared to say you wanted someone, offering yourself like that, and the response is "your desire is generic."  You'd be sad and feel rejected, sorta, right?  I would.

I am not saying you should resume this r/s.  You have a lot of insight about how there are no changes without changes, and he doesn't seem to be making any, and you, knowing all that you do about BPD, using the tools, walking away in the face of abuse, just triggered his breakup impulse.  It could well be that there's no good way forward there, and your analysis that that is the case is really responsible and reality-based.  Kudos!  Many of us find it so hard to get there.

But I do think you tend to read his cover-up anger, that goes over his feelings of rejection, way too literally.  In a situation like this, can you just gently validate "I hear that you wanted to be close, and of course I'd like that too, but the implications are painful and I can't, but thank you for sharing that you still feel that desire for me, that actually makes me feel good; and I feel it for you, too."

[Learning_curve74]

Emelie, sorry to hear he went ballistic. I agree with patientandclear's analysis that your reply was seen as a seriously invalidating rejection by him. Nons and pwBPD both use anger as a way to express emotions, thus a rage... .

If you want to remain in contact, you may want to refresh yourself with the tools on the Staying board. Using things like SET, PUVAS, and DEARMAN. Avoiding JADEing.

Many people can be friends but I personally cannot see being friends with my exBPDgf in the near future. She is too vampiric giving too little back, so I'd rather spend the little time I have with friends that don't drain me like she would.

[Emelie Emelie]

Responding to Spell and P & C:

You both had very interesting things to say and I've been thinking hard about it.  I also saw him this week.  It was his 50th Birthday so I called.  I was worried he didn't have plans and he didn't.  We had dinner.  First time I've seen him in two months.  Here's what I think I've figured out (with your help):

1.  P&C:  I should talk to you before I have any interaction with him.    I don't always respond well in the moment and you always say what I wish I would have said. 

2.  He does love me.  I don't believe he wants to resume the realtionship for the same reasons I don't.  Too much fear about another wrenching ending.  He did sort of "float it out there" a couple of weeks ago but that's where he is now.  I've been so caught up in my hurt because he's the one who ended it that I really have discounted his hurt and lonliness as much less than mine.  The difference is I have friends and a social life and he really doesn't. He is having a very rough time.

3.  What do I want from him?  This was the toughest.  I think I got down to it.  I want him to sooth my hurt feelings.  Make it all better.  That's not a reasonable expectation.  It's not something he's capable of doing... .especially as he's got plenty of hurt feelings of his own.  I can't look to him to take care of my feelings. 

4.  And Spell?  You're exactly right.  If I'm going to maintain any type of relationship with him I have to accept him as he is.  I couldn't do that in a romantic relationship.  I have to really think about if I can do that in a friendship.  If we do I also have to remember something my T has been trying to drill into my head:  I tend to stuff my hurt feelings.  Say it doesn't matter.  Which doesn't work because then they pop up in inappropriate (non P&C like) ways.  So there were a couple things that came up at dinner which really did hurt my feelings.  He followed up on dinner via text... .nice of me to reach out etc.  So I told him what my T said and in a very non-confrontational way said this part of the conversation did hurt my feelings.  He responded to that really well.  He heard me, clarified his response, and said I am really happy to see you standing up for yourself.  I'm always willing to listen if you have something to get off your chest.

So thank you both, and the rest of you, for your insightful responses.

[peas]

It was his 50th Birthday so I called.  I was worried he didn't have plans and he didn't.

I don't mean to be harsh, but him not having plans for his 50th birthday is his problem. You are still worried about him. Do you worry about him more than you worry about yourself?

For most people, I would reach out to them on their birthday and see if they wanted company. But considering your past with this man, the breakup, the continued pain with contact, this isn't like most "regular" friendships.

[Emelie Emelie]

I know.  Right now I guess I do worry about him more than I worry about myself.   

[patientandclear]

I know.  Right now I guess I do worry about him more than I worry about myself.   

I think it is OK to say, if it's true, that you also wanted to see him.  I find it empowering to own that I have continuing desires for contact with this person who is so interesting and has shared important times with me ... .

In other words, caring about yourself could still lead to having contact with him.

It's damn challenging, as you detailed in your longer post, that's for sure!  But if it's true that you wanted to see him for you, that isn't the same thing as caring more about his well-being than yours.

***

On your longer post -- well done (re: processing with him the things in the conversation that hurt your feelings), and also, well done to him for handling it.

I've been struggling mightily (MIGHTILY) with my post-r/s friendship with my ex.  I have a long painful thread on the Staying board that just got locked for length, and have started a new one.  If you are considering friendship, well, you might wade through some of my saga since fall of 2012 and see if you think you can manage the dynamic better than I.  I'm fairly miserable.  Though finally doing some somatic (body-based) therapies focused on trauma recovery is definitely helping.

[Emelie Emelie]

P & C I will read your thread on the staying board.  I did and didn't want to see him.  I'm finally starting to come out of the pain of this break up and I was worried that seeing him would really set me back.  Actually I don't think it did.  Having some distance from him and seeing him again did reinforce that I don't want to/can't do this again.  It was hard at first.  He seemed happy to see me.  Told me how beautiful I looked.  Was very physical... .constantly touching me.  (He was always  that way.)  But as we talked the other behaviors were, I think, much more apparent having spent some time away from him.  And I found myself drawing comparisons with the guy I am now (still casually) dating and him.  New guy is very interested in me and my work and my daughter and my life.  I had mentioned a musician I really liked back in the day to New Guy once when we first started dating.  He called me Monday and said hey you're boy is going to be in town a couple of weeks.  He changed a flight so he could take me to the show.  With BPD it is always all about him.  He didn't ask about my daughter.  I was talking about work and he said "I don't miss that."  But talked about his in great detail.  Actually I was kind of bored. 

But since we got together (Wednesday) he has texted me several times and called both yesterday and today.  Today because he was upset with his sister.  It's as "friends" but I know this could be a slippery slope for me.  It's only because I haven't been replaced yet.  When I am he'll disappear and I don't want to set myself up to be hurt by that. 

But that's what I meant by I am more worried about him than I am myself right now.  Yes... .I need to be needed.  But he does "need" someone right now.  I know I am taking a big emotional risk but I'm making a conscious choice.  So I need to be willing to deal with the consequences of that.  For today I am. 

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

"2.  He does love me.  I don't believe he wants to resume the realtionship for the same reasons I don't.  Too much fear about another wrenching ending.  He did sort of "float it out there" a couple of weeks ago but that's where he is now.  I've been so caught up in my hurt because he's the one who ended it that I really have discounted his hurt and lonliness as much less than mine.  The difference is I have friends and a social life and he really doesn't. He is having a very rough time."

Sounds exactly like mine... .except when I finally had the sense to contact the woman he allegedly only had a drunken one-off with in June who means nothing to him and is 'dumb' and 'facile', it turns out she has been "in a relationship" with him ever since June.

All the while he has been mirroring me virtually to the extent he was when we first got together, hours every evening. He must have been hard-pushed to fit in time talking online to his New Victim, consideirng how much time he spent online making me feel loved and wanted and cherished and valued during July and August.

So... .there's probably already a replacement, I'm afraid.

If seeing that would hurt you, then it would be useful to consider stepping right away from your ex now, before the New Victim becomes really apparent to you.

You'll know when the time is right, because when you read advice like this, you stop reacting strongly against the advice.

A week ago, I'd still ahve been saying, utterly convinced, no, no, we can be friends - we'll work on making a friendship where there used to be a relationship, but I won't turn my back on him. He is so alone, he needs to know that there is someone who has not turned their back on him. I worry about him! He needs me, as a friend!

Well... .yes, he does need a friend. And at almost 42 years old, he seems not to have even one friend in his life. That tells me a lot.

But above all - he needs a friend, but I need my sanity.

and my sanity HAS to matter more than his.

[Emelie Emelie]

I hear you Escaped.  I really do.  Especially about me needing my sanity.  I know I'm playing with fire here.  And I don't want to get burned. 

[peas]

Nice! This:

New guy is very interested in me and my work and my daughter and my life.

[Emelie Emelie]

Yes! It is!  Just not ready for anything serious.  But he is so growing on me.