Why won't she let me sleep?

[Seppe]

I'm one of those people that needs their sleep.  I actually feel ill when I am tired. I am an early riser and the worker in the family.  My better half is a night owl and gets to sleep in as late as she wants. 

If we are getting along, she continues to talk and touch me or shift about the room even while I am dozing off, wanting to talk about nothing in particular.  It's generally nice things, but she can't seem to accept the fact that I am exhausted and have to get up in a few hours.  She understands the concept, but that does not prevent her from continuing... she just does it in a very kind and sweet way.

When we are not getting along, the argument continues to all hours and she will intentionally wake me up to continue the fight.  Yesterday, she was mad because I did not answer a question she asked me and, evidently, that means I disrespect her, I am a liar and hide things from her am childish and incapable of doing the "one thing" she asks of me (that "one thing" is actually quite a bit of things wrapped up in a package of the fear of the day.)  After several apologies from me (which she didn't hear or I didn't say the right way) and assuring her several times that I loved her, I fell asleep, only to be awaken a few minutes later to continue the discussion: "we need to be able to talk about these things."

Can someone help me understand what is going through her head at these times? Is she not capable of empathizing with me, or is the cost/benefit analysis that goes on in her head just so weighed heavily in favor of what she is feeling that my sleep is simply not as important as what she needs at the moment?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[eeyore]

 

We have lots of threads on sleep deprivation.  You have to learn to take care of yourself and get what you need.  That's setting a boundary.  On the right of your screen is a box.  It contains a link to the Lessons.   Please go through and read the Lessons. 

No she doesn't understand or empathize.  pwBPD haven't developed emotionally like most adults.  Remember, Even healthy adults have some emotional hangup or baggage.    So they are two year old in an adult body.  What you are experiencing is like a two year old temper tantrum. 

[Seppe]

Thanks.  I have gone through the lessons and found them to be helpful.

No she doesn't understand or empathize.  

This is the part I struggle with.  She is fully capable of empathy; I have seen it. She can be very helpful to people who are having a difficult time and she is very perceptive to how others feel, generally. 

[eeyore]

This is the part I struggle with.  She is fully capable of empathy; I have seen it. She can be very helpful to people who are having a difficult time and she is very perceptive to how others feel, generally.  

So that she can look good to others.  She doesn't care about what you think because she thinks you will ALWAYS be there.  This is how she controls you.  Give you a little crumb to make you behave how she wants.  :)o what she tells you and be a good boy.  

[Cloudy Days]

I think they can have empathy but only when they aren't overwhelmed with their own emotions, they lack the ability to see outside of their own feelings. If she feels strongly about something, nothing else matters but what she is feeling at that moment. It's just how they function.

I too have problems with sleeping sometimes. When my husband is in a good mood, he will often wake me up to tell me he loves me or that he is sorry for something. While I appreciate the thought I would rather have my sleep. I have asked that he not do that on a weeknight and he has stuck to it. I told him he can wake me on the weekends and he does do it on occasion, eventually go back to sleep after having a good morning with him.

When he is upset it's a different story entirely. He definitely doesn't care that I need sleep, he knows I need it and will make sure I don't get it.

[wishfulthinking]

Good ole sleep deprivation... .I get ill when deprived, too.  I get apprx 4 hours a night now because he wants me up with him... .I get up at 530, he's still sleeping when I leave at 645.  Gets home before I do, too... .must be nice... .

During a rage, it's ridiculous.  I won't get a lick of sleep.  Even if I have to work the next day.  He just won't go in and then sleeps all day, I don't have that option.

[lostandunsure]

My wife did this too me all the time and still does to some extent. It took her a long time to realize that I have to be able to sleep. I'm not even sure that she really understands it now. Part of it came from her feeling like every moment we were together had to be filled with something... .and if she wasn't tired herself, then she was going to keep talking if we were in the same room together. Part of it comes from a complete lack of a sense of time. She just doesn't understand where time goes and how time passes. It'll be 10:00 and she'll start talking and go on and on and then realize that it's now 11:00.

I guess too that I've realized that I have to protect my time and remind her of my sleep schedule, almost constantly. Ironically, now she's getting into a routine so she's enforcing it as it's extremely helpful for her to be on routine. She still loses time and getting lost in some action that takes longer than one would normally think.

Most of the time, I don't think she's intentionally keeping me from sleeping. She just loses track of time and I was just to "polite" to say, "hey, I need to sleep, can we continue this tomorrow". In an argument, I used to think she did it on purpose, but, really I think that was the same thing, losing track of time, carried to an extreme and if I was mad enough, I would just go to sleep either on the sofa or somewhere where I thought I could at least get a little rest.

As Seppe pointed out, there's a difference between the empathy she may show in social situations and other people than with you. She may appear to understand empathize with these other people, but I'm willing to bet that she's just acting the way she thinks is socially acceptable. With you, it's different. One, you're too close and would see through such an act if it were directed too you. And two, you are in a committed relationship, which from her perspective means that she doesn't have to empathize with you, you have to empathize with her. Because you're there to keep her safe and happy. That's a bit of a simplification, but the essential meaning is there.

You have to set your boundaries and then stick to them. Really, the more I think about it, the more I think that's why she's started to understand that I need my sleep. It was hard at first, she felt like I just wanted to sleep more than be with her and it took a lot of communication (this was before I knew about SET and DEARMAN) to get her to understand that for me to work and keep my job that I needed to be awake during work hours.

It can be done... .it's not easy, but it can be.

[wishfulthinking]

Interesting on the losing time thing... .I wonder if this is typical (not that BPD's are typical... .).  Mine seems to lose track of time all the time.  Late for things, didn't realize what time it was, etc... .

[Seppe]

I think she really does have the ability to empathize and it is not just a front.  I've seen her be great with her friends/family and talking with her about it afterwards I am pretty confident her feelings are genuine.  Plus there have been a few time when I have been hurt by something unrelated to her and she has been great about giving me support.  Perhaps I am just kidding myself, but I believe it is quite real.

At least in my situation, I think its more along the lines of what Cloudy Days said:  its when her own emotions overwhelm her that she cannot function properly.

I have set some boundaries and repeated often:  "I certainly want you to talk with me about things that upset you, but it is really hard for me when it goes on for hours or late at night."  I now see her looking at the clock as we argue and she will sarcastically comment on how its her fault that I am still awake and it does curtail her a bit, but its still very frustrating.

 

[eeyore]

Have you read about extinction bursts. 

So just like when an elevator doesn't come people keep pushing the button.  When your wife doesn't get what she wants she'll keep pushing your button keeping you awake until YOU enforce YOU boundary. 

Your boundary is You need to sleep.  She doesn't get to keep pestering you until she gets what she wants.  You leave the room, You leave the house, etc. 

[Aussie0zborn]

Yes, I would leave the house, go to a motel to sleep and then deduct the cost of the motel from my share of the mortgage.

As for empathy I always thought mine was empathetic until I installed a surveillance system and then I saw the real her.

Her empathy was fake and she learned it from what society expects from her. It did not come from within. You are either empathetic or not.

[eeyore]

As for empathy I always thought mine was empathetic until I installed a surveillance system and then I saw the real her.

Would you elaborate?  What did you see? 

[Chosen]

As Seppe pointed out, there's a difference between the empathy she may show in social situations and other people than with you. She may appear to understand empathize with these other people, but I'm willing to bet that she's just acting the way she thinks is socially acceptable. With you, it's different. One, you're too close and would see through such an act if it were directed too you. And two, you are in a committed relationship, which from her perspective means that she doesn't have to empathize with you, you have to empathize with her. Because you're there to keep her safe and happy. That's a bit of a simplification, but the essential meaning is there.

Well said.  I think pwBPDs can empathise, but as some have pointed out, only when they are not in need to anything.  If they have so much as a tiny emotional need at that moment, they will likely choose not to empathise.  They seem to be better in a social situation because it makes them feel good about themselves.  Makes them seem really decent to others. 

Anyway... .sleep.  I can so relate to your post.  When H's irritate or mad or something, he usually brings it up late at night, after we settled in bed.  And of course if you get impatient with him, it gets worst because he will make sure you don't sleep.  The worst is that he won't sleep much too, and then he will be irritated the next day... .it is a viscious cycle.

I don’t know what is it exactly that I did that makes it happen less these days, perhaps it is that I usually get ready for bed before him, so I’m waiting for him to settle down and sleep (and he can’t say I’m hindering his sleep).  I also never raise issues close to bed time, for fear that it wouldn’t finish by the time we sleep.  He brings up issues in bed less these days, but when he does, I give non-committal responses, like “hmmm” and “uhhh… I see”, so as to minimize chances of starting a fight. 

[Aussie0zborn]

As for empathy I always thought mine was empathetic until I installed a surveillance system and then I saw the real her.

Would you elaborate?  What did you see? 

My stbx uBPD wife is a Deputy Principal. A mother went to her office asking to borrow $50 to feed her kids. She was obliged profesionally to say no. The mother also reported that her 11yo daughter was being bullied with the kids saying she was "giving blow jobs to all the boys in school". She came home all upset that the woman could not feed her children so I suggested she call this woman (our former cleaning lady) and tell her to come to our home and collect $50 from me. This way my wife wouldn't have to worry about this poor woman and her starving children any longer as it was causing her a lot of grief.

The woman had already secured a $50 loan and her children were eating their dinner. In my absence, my wife calls the local gossip that she befriended (also a mother at the school) and tells her that this 11yo student is "giving blow jobs to all the boys at school" and ridicules the child's mother like you would not believe. I checked the recording and went to bed very disappointed but I did not expect what happened next.

She came to bed and said to me, "I don't think I'm going to sleep tonight - that poor woman, not being able to feed her children". She just spent the last 15  minutes ridiculing that woman to the local gossip but was telling me her heart was bleeding from her heightened sense of empathy. There was no empathy at all. It scared the hell out of me and I slept with one eye open.

Ridiculing this poor woman and trying to show me she was empathetic towards her when she was the exact opposite was one of the reasons I left her back then. (I was later recycled).

So, back to sleep deprivation... .Damn, did I hate that!

[eeyore]

sounds like she loves the drama.  Saying whatever she can to get the other person to listen to her. Creating webs of more drama.

[babyducks]

Oh yeah can I relate to the sleep deprivation stuff...

My take is this:  My ex always boiled just on the hairy edge of hypomania, so she had a decreased need for sleep.   I on the other hand, like many have said here, need a great deal more than the 'average' amount of sleep.  And when I am asleep I am completely out.

I believe that my EX's fear of abandonment was so intense that when I fell asleep she felt that I was leaving her.   

I've read the articles about how business trips and times of separation could trigger abandonment issues.  When I conked out on her she reacted as if I left abruptly.   

I never figured out that I needed to 'explain' that I required more peace and quiet and sleep than the average bear.    I thought it was self evident.    Wrong.

It got so bad I would actually do what people have said,... .leave and come home to my own house to sleep, and notice that I was enjoying being able to sleep peacefully. 

I did eventually learn to say things like, "I understand this is important to you.  We can talk about this again soon.  Right now I need to sleep."    I was very careful not use the words BUT, or YOU.  They were huge triggers for her.   I always said I and We.   

We never reached common ground.  Her energy levels were usually through the roof.   And mine are usually dragging along the floor boards.   

Compromise was almost impossible for us.   My T recommended we keep separate residences and thankfully I had a safe house to run to when I needed to sleep and decompress.

good luck!

[eeyore]

Mine slept while I was at work.  So I'd come home exhausted and he'd keep me up by instigating.

[rollercoaster24]

Hi all

Interesting and very relevant post.

I had 2 years of sleep deprivation when BP lived at my rental property with me, and it was hell, couple that with all the other forms of abuse/danger he was dumping on me, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I really enjoyed actually being able to sleep again after he moved back to his parents for a year or so, although when I went to stay with him, he would again initiate conflicts with me, and keep me awake again, because he was 'upset'.

I have read here that at times they can display empathy, but if they are really upset, that ability goes out the window, this rings so true.

Not sure how things will go now after a 4 month separation, but I am giving it another shot. What I know for sure, is that I will not allow him to keep me awake all night ever again.

My pushbike and spare keys are on standby

[Chosen]

Seppe  ,

From my experience, they are capable of empathy.  pwBPD can empathise well, but only when it does not conflict with their wants/ needs.  Your pwBPD, at the moment when she keeps you awake, is not capable of respecting your need for sleep because she has a need to talk.  And when you're asleep you're not there to listen to her, and that's invalidating (to her) and she needs to stop that.  So she makes sounds and keep you awake.

What I find useful for myself is that I will try to give my pwBPD a lot of time before sleep, I will not rush him into bed, but I know that a lot of times he says stuff just before bed.  I make sure I am ready for bed before he is, so when he wants to talk I am there.  If I'm already in bed and he talks, I usually don't really respond, lest he takes it as a cue that he can continue talking.  Sometimes he doesn't like it but leaves it.  But I'm just talking about the times when he's not dysregulated.  When he is dysregulated, he will keep me awake at all costs and nothing will stop him.

[comorbidspouse]

I am so glad that others experience the same thing!

It used to be that mine would keep me up until all hours of the morning with his rages, and again, not because he couldn't empathize, but because he was getting the result he wanted - a reaction. He'd keep me up until I was sobbing, and begging him to let me sleep, turning the lights on, pulling the sheets off me, demanding that if he 'couldn't sleep then I couldn't sleep either'

I tried enforcing my boundaries, going into another room to sleep - he'd just follow me, putting in headphones - he'd just throw (soft) things on me so that I wouldn't be able to fall asleep that way either, go into another room and lock the door - he broke the doors.

Eventually, I told him that it was abuse and that if he didn't stop I was going to call the police (since I am the only one who supports us financially and always have to go into work the next day with zero sleep), he said 'call them then' and I knew he wasn't going to stop, so knowing I needed to stay true to my word, I called them.

They asked him to leave, and to this day, whenever I tell him that I need space because our conversation is no longer doing anything productive (usually about an hour into a tantrum of his) his new favorite line is 'oh why don't you call the cops then, because I'm TALKING to you!'

*sigh*

It seems like a lose lose to me! I just lie there and play possum now, that seems to work the best, even if he's shoving me, I just lie there like I'm dead, eventually he gives up. I can see how that might escalate though.

Just nice to know there are other people experiencing this and that I'm not crazy!

[wishfulthinking]

Comorbidspous,

You are living a mirror of my life.

[comorbidspouse]

Comorbidspous,

You are living a mirror of my life.

Wishful, I don't know if I should be happy that someone else understands, or sad that you have to live the same way! {{{{hugs}}}}

[Grey Kitty]

comorbidspouse, I haven't had to deal with this myself, but I've read about it here enough.

There are other boundaries enforcement methods you could use.

If he follows you to the other room, the next step is to go away and spend the night in a motel, or with a friend/family member (If you have somebody who is willing to let you pre-arrange to show up at bedtime on short notice for a peaceful night's sleep).

Did the police not help you the time you called them? His response of 'oh why don't you call the cops then... .' seems to imply that it didn't help.