Should I go to a movie with kids

[Sluggo]

My dBPDw just told me that she was taking the kids to the movies tomorrow.  That is I am not to go.  We have done this monthly tradition for the last 2 years.  I want to go ... .but don't want to make things worse.

For the last 8 weeks she has not spoken to me much and has said she is getting a divorce after the birth of our child.  I see this as her further trying to emphasize that she doesn't see us as a married couple.  

What are your thoughts?  

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[Scarlet Phoenix]

All4BVM, I know you're in a difficult place right now with you're wife putting a lot of pressure on you to cut you off from your family and threatening divorce. I can't be easy on you, handling all of this and being present for your children as well.

My guess is that it's tactics from your wife's side, to get you to back down. What do you think the children would like you to do? Is she going with all of them? Maybe go for them, is my thinking. Do you think she will take it out on the children in some way if you go?

We're here for you!

[Sluggo]

Thanks for the input Scarlet Phoenix and support.

Yes I think the kids would think it would be odd that I didn't go.  Yes all kids going to movie.  I am anticipating and somewhat anxious on how I may respond to my BPDw calling me out in front of the kids and her saying ' I don't want you to go, This time is just for me and the kids.  You can pick a different time to take them, we are not a family.'   

Do I push the issue and go anyway ... .even taking a different car.  Or do I turn away and stay home knowing I will feel belittled, sad, and separated. 

[Scarlet Phoenix]

I say go, be there for the kids, maybe have some good moments with them, and prepare for all eventualities. Separate car sounds like a good idea. Thinking up replies beforehand to her reactions. She might very well call you out in front of the kids. Being concerned for others welfare when there's a strong immediate need (getting you to back down) is not a pwBPD's strong suit.

What do you see yourself saying if she calls you out?

Makes a scene at the movie theatre?

[Sluggo]

It would be when leaving for the Movie Theatre. 

Well below is not my first response... .glad I am rehearsing it. 

I see my self saying.  "I realize that it may make you uncomfortable but I want to be there with/for the kids.  We enjoy that time together.  I am going"

Anything I am saying or not saying that could make things worse... .?

[Scarlet Phoenix]

I see my self saying.  "I realize that it may make you uncomfortable but I want to be there with/for the kids.  We enjoy that time together.  I am going"

Anything I am saying or not saying that could make things worse... .?

You states your truth clearly 

Maybe tweek a little to not sound defiant?

"I realize that it may make you uncomfortable but I want to be there am here for the kids.  We enjoy that time together.  I am going

These are minor tweeks, it's important that it stays your words, too. And the way you say it - calmly, eye contact, confident body language (shoulders back, head up) - count as well. Deep breaths!

You could also open with a sentence stating support and empathy first, it might help your truth go over more easily. It's no miracle cure, but people generally likes to feel heard, which is what this does.

Suggestion (and feel free to redo it any way you like!):

Support: Special time with the children is important to you, and... .

Empathy: ... .I realize that it may make you uncomfortable if I go.

Truth: However, I'm here for the kids. We enjoy movie time together, all of us.

Then proceed with whatever you were doing to get ready to leave.

[Sluggo]

Thank you!

[Sluggo]

So this is the text I just just got tonight at 11.50 pm from the BPDw.  I don't know what to do.  Stick with original plan or do what she is telling me to do. 

--------------------

I'm taking the kids to the movie tomorrow.  U r not invited.  I hope I'm pretty clear. I don't want to have any arguments with u tomorrow, specially in front of the kids. Better don't bother me.

[Sluggo]

Even though we live in same house she has been texting me usually when she could come to the room and tell me.  b

[Grey Kitty]

Two thoughts:

1. Don't reply to that by txt. Emotional conversations go badly that way. If you are going to discuss this with her, face to face is better.

2. She is clearly upping the ante and making threats about it.

She is also trying to shift reality on you--she's telling you that if you go, there will be a fight in front of the kids. And she's going to start it, but she's trying to tell you that it your fault not hers.

My suspicion is that if you give in on this, things will get worse, not better.

The other choice is setting a boundary that you will not let her keep you away from your children, and that is pretty much what you were planning, and Scarlet Phoenix tweaked.

I can't answer for you, but I would ask: How has giving in on things like this worked for you so far?

[waverider]

The issue is not about going to the movie with the kids. If you make a big issue about this instance it will be, and you will end up moving away from the underlying issue. Making it harder to deal with the real problem.

I would not go, but make it perfectly clear that you would like to, then organize something else you can do with the kids.

She knows this is triggering for you, that is why she is doing it. It will also make it less fun for the kids.

[Sluggo]

Thank you for your input grey kitty and wave rider.  Both different ways to approach the problem

Waverider wgst did you mean it is not the underlying problem.  I guess things seem so foggy that I am not certain what the uproblem underlying problem is.

     

[Sluggo]

A point if interest.our family was invited to go to our pastors house for dinner last night.   My BPDw did not go.  I went wuth all kids.  Before leaving I asked her are you coming.  She said NO and dont ask me these types of questions unless you want to fight.   

So maybe she feels I did my thing with the kids now she can do her thing.   

[Dancing1]

I had a similar situation with my h right before my 10 yr old left to sleep away camp for 8 weeks. I was told I'm not welcome to come. The difference was wasnt a weekly family outing to the arcade. When I tried reason, and question as to why ? It only made things worse. my son ended up going to bed crying , after my h said "if you go I won't",

Since my h spends so little time with our son. I rethought it. Got my son out of bed calmed him down told him it would be ok , and I would be ok ... It took some talking ,hugs and reassuring . I then took myself on a walk through the park and  to a movie ( I had to drag myself ) and of course when my h came home - his whole mood had shifted.

I don't think it was right , or the right way to handle it . But I feel like sometimes ( at a cost to myself) I take the path of least resistance to avoid more pain for my child and I know that the problems Will not be corrected in that moment or with that situation.

And I feel it's better to wait for when I can be heard, or a therapist can get through to him

Instead of creating more bad will and fights in front of the kids.

I'm a newbie to the BPD knowledge but I know when kids are involved there needs to be some type of damage control for them...

I'm just starting to learn , but they are in much more pain at this difficult situation than we are ...

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hey, All4BMV, I logged off before I saw your last posts. How are you doing today?

[Sluggo]

Scarlett Phoenix  thanks for checking in. Woke up this morning made breakfast for the Family. Wife left with kids in the car. Kids asked me if I was going to go. I just went in the other car and met them at the cinema. Wife did not say anything. I did not respond to her email text nor did I have any conversation with her this morning nor last night. So there was not any openly hostile conflict. I am glad I didn't go because I would felt very separated from them if I didn't

thanks again for checking in

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Thank you for the update. I think this went as well as possible considering the circumstances. Good job on not taking the bait on the text message 

[waverider]

Thank you for your input grey kitty and wave rider.  Both different ways to approach the problem

Waverider wgst did you mean it is not the underlying problem.  I guess things seem so foggy that I am not certain what the uproblem underlying problem is.

     

The underlying problem is whatever is causing your wife to feel this way. Not saying that will be easy to discover or rectify. As you say it is all probably a bit foggy, adding another drama about going to the cinema or not just makes the fog a little thicker.

[Sluggo]

Well the wrath of my decision to go with my my wife yesterday evening.  It happened as I was leaving for my 25 class reunion (which was going to go with me before the all the events from 6 weeks ago starated). 

She came into the room and blocked the door so I was not to leave.  She was very upset that I chose to go to the movies.  She stated that she told me not to go but I disrespected her wishes.  She stated 'my life is not to have you in it and I told you not to go.  You can do your thin  gs with the kids and I will do mine'.   I attempted to begin my SET response and she didn't want to hear any of it.  She said next time I do that she will make a scene.  I said the kdis invited me to go and she said that didn't matter.  She sated she is going to tell the kids that we are separting and getting a divorce so they wont ask those qusetions again.  I tried the SET response again and got a little farther however she said that it is to late for my empathy. 

Although she was very upset, she did reiterate that since I made the choice of my family over her, we were not a family.  She said that I made the decision to break the marriage up.  She is much happier not having to deal with me or my family.  When I hear that I still have the lingering feeling of second guessing my boundary. 

I told her I understood and asked to pass.  She was blocking the door.  She said NO and then she brought up a cople of other off topic issues she was mad about.  One topic was that she didn't like the electrician that I contracted that day to help with an electrical probelm.  A second issue was that a mutual friend of ours commented that she would miss my wife at the BPDw and hope she started feeling better.  My wife told me I need to start telling everyone that we are separated and getting a divorce. 

I told her that I wanted to pass through the door.  i ended up having to open the door while she was pushing against it.  I left shortly after that to go to the reunion.   

[allibaba]

All4BVM,

I just want to say that I admire how you are handling all of this.  Its so difficult.  I tend to try to circumvent land mines with my husband when he is pushing me away and just not make a big deal out of them (like waverider said). 

Normally if he wants time alone with our little boy (18 months) then I step aside and allow that time.  There did come a time back in July where he kept upping the ante and I finally had to stand strong on an issue involving our son (he tried to take our son and our sons passport away from me and go check into a different hotel in a foreign country).  He was dyregulated at the time.  I didn't fear for my son but everything had gone far enough.  When I stood strong, it escalated into physical conflict and I unfortunately had to call the police on him.  That was just a line that I wouldn't allow him to cross regardless of the consequences.

That situation seems to have been the turning point (at least for now) for our lives.  He realized that he suffers from mental illness and he told me that he had hit his rock bottom.

Just wanted to throw my own experience in because it shows using both tactics.



Good luck!

[waverider]

Have you asked her outright what is the main problem with your lives that is causing her so much grief rather than these day today little dramas? She may not know or be able to vocalize it, but then again it may trigger some deeper seated issue that you are unaware off.

Cinemas and reunions are not the stuff that causes people to want to end a relationship.

If you are going to have conflict it may as well be about the real reason for any chance of resolution.

[Sluggo]

Dear Waverider and Scarlett Phoenix,

Yes the underlying problem I feel is her need to connect and my pulling away emotionally.  She wants to feel like she is #1 in my life and I haven't shown that.  My fear of her outbursts and negative comments and putdowns has overtime pulled me away from her emotionally (not really consciously).  I would feel like the times I was starting to feel comfortable with her again, there would be a blowup and I would absorb it and withdrawal.  I know I didn't handle that correctly and should have allowed her to experience her frustration without doing all that I could do to calm her down (saying sorry over and over and not really knowing what I am saying sorry for, making sure the kids weren't screaming and running around the house, making sure they were doing all the chores they needed to do, etc).  I began perhaps not consciously to feel that it was safer to be on guard and not relax too much as the blowups would make me feel horrible.   

Six weeks ago when she said she only wanted me to talk to my family in her presence, it finally came out that she said because I didn't communicate what was happening in my extended family's life.  The specific example she brought up was that my brother who lives out of state, had his commercial lawn mower stolen- an event that had no impact on our family in anyway.  She stated that I did not tell her that happened until 3 weeks later.  Because of that example and others similar she said, she wanted to be in the room to hear.  However, I said I would do a much better job of communicating everything I know that is happening in my family.  She said no because I don't trust you will do that. 

TEXTING:  The reason she wanted to read the texts before I send them because she wanted to see that I respond in the text the same way I write to her- that is short and brief sentences.  She would not allow any texts that weren't short and brief because that is how I write her.  Her specific example was when my wife was out of town and I was coordinating with my mother the pick up and drop off with the kids.  She said I sent more texts to my Mother than I would her thus not making her feel #1.    I said in response I promise I will be more prolific when writing texts to her.  She said NO to that suggestion.  'It is not going to be your way- It is going to be my way'. 

Since then things just keep getting worse and worse.  She has changed the passwords to our family email, family calendar, and not just sent me the below email below this morning. 

From now on I will not talk to you verbally. If u need to communicate with me u can  only do it by text, email, writing a note and / or leave me a voicemail. No matter if we r in the same room, please do not talk to me. That counts meal times too.

I will not answer any questions if u ask me verbally. From now on I will not speak a word to u. If u force me to talk by asking me questions, specially in front of the kids I will not be responsible for the tone of voice I use or the type of words I use to respond ur questions.

Also, I want u stop telling ur friends/people that the reason I don't go to ur events is because I'm sick. Be real & tell them the truth. I don't care if u picture urself as the victim & me as the evil one. Just stop lying & said the things the way should be.  We're separated 4 the last 6 weeks& will file divorce as soon as the baby's born.

I want u maintain ur distance with me. I don't want u seat down, stand up, lay down or any other form close to me. That includes trying to take pictures, praying, etc too.

When we are sharing a meal or other situations & I'm making conversation with the kids, I want u out the conversation. I don't get into ur stuff or the way u live ur life, please do not get in my life or stuff either

I hope I'm very clear.

It doesn't seem like there is anything to grab onto now to work with.  It is hard to read this as it sounds like divorce is exactly what she has choses to do. 

[allibaba]

All4BVM,

No matter where things get to - you can always make a choice to open back up and start again.  Whether she accepts that choice or not is unfortunately out of your control.

If it were me.  I would probably say my piece and then give her space.

S.E.T is a good tool

S= Support refers to an initial statement which indicates the loved one supports the person with borderline personality. It is a statement that begins with "I" and demonstrates concern and a desire to help. The support statement is meant to reassure the BP that the relationship is a safe one, and that her needs matter even during this difficult moment.  Wife, I love you and you and the kids are the most important thing in the world to me.

E= Empathy refers to communicating that the loved one understands what the BP is feeling, and focuses on "you." It is not a conveyance of pity or sympathy, but instead a true awareness and validation of the feelings of the BP: "I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me," "How frustrating this must be for you."  It is important not to tell the BP how she is feeling, but instead put her demonstrated feelings into words. The goal is to convey a clear understanding of the uncomfortable feelings she is having and that they are OK.

Truth It must be really uncomfortable for you to be living with me when you feel like I am so emotionally distant.  I never meant to exclude you from my life in any way shape or form.

T= Truth refers to a realistic and honest assessment of the situation and the BPs role in solving the problem. It is an objective statement that focuses on the "it" -- not on the subjective experience of the BP or Non-BP. Often the BP may seem to be asking, or demanding, something impossible, not taking an active role or responsibility in resolving the issue, or even presenting you with a "no-win" situation. The truth statement is meant to clearly and honestly respond to the difficult demand or behavior of the BP, while placing responsibility appropriately: "This is what I can do…," "This is what will happen…,"  I recently realized that I have made some mistakes and that whenever we had a disagreement that I created more distance emotionally.  I am ready to try something different because I love you.

I understand that you need space right now.  Unfortunately I can't live with you without talking to you but I'll give you as much space as I can.

Good luck!

[Sluggo]

Dear allibaba,

Thank you for your insight and words of encouragement- much needed right now. 

I appreciate the SET examples and appreciate the role play on that.  Helping to see the concepts in words. 

Funny thing is she sent me 3 texts today (two pictures of one of my kids that she is a chaperone for at the school) and then asking me what she needs to fix with the crock pot meal I made today for dinner.  That is she is asking to make rice, noodles, potatoes. 

No mention of anything from earlier.  However, I don't have any motivation to respond back... .but I think I should as my motivation for not responding to her is because I feel hurt and feel that if I respond she will think what she wrote is OK.  I know this is where my own issues make things more difficult- with drawling and not wanting to participate. 

[Scarlet Phoenix]

All4BMV, is saw your response in your other thread so I came here to look. I see that for the moment she is hell bent on her position. Allibaba is giving you good advice above.

And true, we do make it harder on ourselves by retreating and closing off the emotions. It's a very understandable response and I've been known to do it - a lot - myself. Nonetheless, it's neither helpful nor healthy. I understand if at the moment it is not doable for you to react differently.

[Sluggo]

Since she specifically stated no verbal interaction... .I guess it is best to write her by email.   Would I be violating her boundaries she set by telling this to her face. 

[allibaba]

Dear allibaba,

Thank you for your insight and words of encouragement- much needed right now. 

I appreciate the SET examples and appreciate the role play on that.  Helping to see the concepts in words. 

No problem.  I try to realize that inside my poor husband just hurts so badly sometimes and I am the safe one to lash out at.  I don't have to be an emotional punching bag though   He actually respects me more when I am not.

Its unrealistic of her to want no verbal interaction.  That's why I mentioned it in the SET... .you can't live with someone and not talk to them.  That's just CRAZY.  Its a conversation for face to face... .(but then again you will do what you have to do to communicate that you love her)

Funny thing is she sent me 3 texts today (two pictures of one of my kids that she is a chaperone for at the school) and then asking me what she needs to fix with the crock pot meal I made today for dinner.  That is she is asking to make rice, noodles, potatoes. 

Not funny at all.  That is the disease unfortunately.  Have you read about push/ pull?  She may feel guilty about earlier.  The trick is not to ride the highs and lows with her and be a mature example of how to behave.  I think that you actually have to be a saint to make a BPD relationship work.    You are a loving, radically accepting husband - who is not a doormat!  In other words, you love your wife... .you want it to work... .but you will not be abused

No mention of anything from earlier.  However, I don't have any motivation to respond back... .but I think I should as my motivation for not responding to her is because I feel hurt and feel that if I respond she will think what she wrote is OK.  I know this is where my own issues make things more difficult- with drawling and not wanting to participate. 

Your motivation to respond back is that you want your relationship to work!  You are the adult, the bigger person... .  you can move past the petty stuff and be a loving husband to her. 

You make her understand what is ok and what is not ok through boundaries... .not through withholding love or withholding contact (at least that has been the secret sauce for me).  Its so hard -- but for me step one was - no longer withholding love when I was hurt.  Step two is beginning to implement boundaries in order to remove the undesirable behavior and get your life back on track for your whole family. Step three was learning to validate his feelings. 

I'm not going to lie... .its really hard.  My hubby is off his rails today and I just have to keep trucking on with my day.

[waverider]

The silent treatment is a form of emotional abuse. The normal advice is distance yourself from abuse. You may have to distance yourself, as the act of pushing you away is what is feeding her emotions. If you remove yourself as much as you can from this dynamic then you remove the fuel from it.

If you are not engaging with this, then she will see the consequences of this behavior. At the moment she is delusional about what the consequences of her behavior is, she may not like the reality.

I think her underlying abandonment part of the disorder is being triggered. A common defensive reaction to that perception of loosing control is to take control and push you away first. To trigger a reversal you have to change the dynamics. Give her the space she wants. Do not give up your own rights to not living under the microscope, which is part of the TRUTH in the SET procedure Alibaba is talking about. The S & E is hearing she wants space and allowing her to have it.

The Truth is the real world consequences, and that may need to be demonstrated rather than just stated. Many of these issues are hers alone to deal with, and they will be harder for her to deal with alone. She may need to learn that lesson the hard way.

Just go about your life in an unaffected way as possible, you have your own quality of life to consider. That part you have control over.

Avoid dramas over single symptomatic issues, such as the original one raised. These are the things that affect kids the most

[allibaba]

Was also thinking... .what can you do to address her real concerns/ fears?  Almost like a sign of goodwill.  In my house, I started talking a few issues that stressed my husband out very seriously.  I then took practical steps to minimize the stress.  Could you say... .mention that someone in your family was asking about her (maybe they were) and set up a skype or phone call together with them?  Even the offer might make her feel more a part of your life.

Just a thought.

[Grey Kitty]

Since she specifically stated no verbal interaction... .I guess it is best to write her by email.   Would I be violating her boundaries she set by telling this to her face. 

I would say that you would be going against her demands, and not worry about whether you are violating her boundaries or not.

My strongest bit of advice to you is to hold strong to YOUR reality. She is telling you a lot of things that she completely believes, but which don't seem to be reality. (i.e. You are causing the divorce) She is also giving you a lot of arbitrary demands. (i.e. Do not talk to me at meals; Tell people we are divorcing; etc.)

Remember that your reality does include your wife saying these things, and (most likely) completely believing them when she says them.

Sadly, I don't see this as a solution. Fortunately you've already got good advice on what to do. I just want to assure you that if you start believing her reality instead of your own, the situation will just be harder to deal with for you.

I'd second waverider's suggestion of giving her separate space when she wants it. For practical communications, email or even txts sound good. Discussions with her about contested subjects like talking to your family or time with your kids, or your relationship are different. They are more emotional than practical, with the non-verbal portion being very important... .and completely lost in writing, so I wouldn't bite on those issues by txt/email.

Hang in there!

  GK