Should I go to a movie with kids

[ForeverDad]

I'm usually on other boards, ones where the Staying - despite education, improved communication skills, etc - eventually failed.  So my comments are focused for the what-if future, so please bear with me.

She came into the room and blocked the door so I was not to leave.  She was very upset that I chose to go to the movies.  She stated that she told me not to go but I disrespected her wishes.  She stated 'my life is not to have you in it and I told you not to go.  You can do your things with the kids and I will do mine'.   I attempted to begin my SET response and she didn't want to hear any of it.  She said next time I do that she will make a scene.  I said the kids invited me to go and she said that didn't matter.  She stated she is going to tell the kids that we are separating and getting a divorce so they wont ask those questions again.  I tried the SET response again and got a little farther however she said that it is to late for my empathy.

Ponder this, if you and your wife weren't married then likely you and she wouldn't be doing things together with the children.  You'd have separate lives, separate homes, etc.  In her mind she's already taken that leap.  Can you get her to turn back the clock on her perceptions?  That's the big question, the family's future hinges on that.

At some point you may have to accept that she is determined to end the marriage.  She's been definite about it.  She's an adult, she's allowed to call an end to the marriage.  You have that legal right too.  No court will deny either spouse a divorce just because the other wants to stay married.  You'll have to tread carefully since she's on edge now.

I told her I understood and asked to pass.  She was blocking the door.  She said NO and then she brought up a couple of other off topic issues she was mad about... .  I told her that I wanted to pass through the door.  I ended up having to open the door while she was pushing against it.

Frankly, several things she's said and done, including the physical blocking, the recurring blaming and blame shifting, the inability to really listen, the firmness in saying it's over, her willingness to be overtly oppositional even in front of the children, reminds me of what my ex did in our final months together.  Because of that, I suggest you also have a Plan B where you make preparations now just in case to protect yourself if things don't improve.

Although she was very upset, she did reiterate that since I made the choice of my family over her, we were not a family.  She said that I made the decision to break the marriage up.

Actually, you know that's not correct.  It's blame shifting, trying to make you accept the guilt and feel guilty.  The fact is that there's probably some blame on both sides but she's trying to shift it all onto you.  Don't be conned.

If the marriage does fail, she may try to claim abuse of some sort in order to gain the upper hand.  So be very careful not to give any excuse for her to claim it.  Typically when police respond and decide to cart one parent away, it's the man who is more likely to be the one removed even if he's not the problem.  Recall what she warned, "Next time I do that she will make a scene."

I also see that she is trying to Control your interaction with your family, perhaps friends too.  On the one hand it could be that she wants to know she isn't treated any differently than they are.  Makes sense considering her sensitivity and in a more normal person that could be understandable.  On the other hand, isolation from one's family and friends is a typical disordered tactic - and it often succeeds, giving the other more Control in the relationship.  I'm concerned she's using such claims and those attempts to scrutinize your privacy, your communication with your family, to lead you into deeper isolation.

I do hope the marriage can be rescued.  But if not, then please, please be prepared with Plan B.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Matt]

Someone who has BPD but isn't in treatment, and has decided not to get along with you, probably isn't going to change.

If the marriage can't be saved, the kids will be at high risk until custody is settled.  Kids who are raised by someone with BPD are at high risk for substance abuse, depression, and lots of other emotional and psychological problems.

In some states, it's legal to audio-record conversations, if one party (in this case you) is aware of it.  Audio recordings, texts and e-mails like you have shared here might make a big difference if the marriage can't be saved.  Having the right evidence might mean the kids will be with you most of the time.

So... .while you may still hope to save the marriage, you might want to consider saving all the evidence you can - how she treats the kids, and how she treats you in front of the kids.  It will also help if you can document her BPD diagnosis, and gather evidence showing how that affects the kids.

You may want to consider posting on the Family Law board and/or Parenting - different perspectives - even if you still hope the marriage might be saved.

[Aussie0zborn]

Frankly, several things she's said and done, including the physical blocking, the recurring blaming and blame shifting, the inability to really listen, the firmness in saying it's over, her willingness to be overtly oppositional even in front of the children, reminds me of what my ex did in our final months together.  Because of that, I suggest you also have a Plan B where you make preparations now just in case to protect yourself if things don't improve.

Sounds exactly like my stbx uBPD wife. We could be talking about the same woman. As ForeverDad suggests, have a Plan B ready just in case things don't go the way you envisage.  This means having clothes and other items packed, having money available to you, spare car keys, anything you need to make good your escape. In such a case don't forget to cancel any credit cards in your name that are attached to non-essential online accounts or you will be getting a $2700 charge on your card like I did yesterday.

She sounds exactly the way mine was at the end and I'm not sure there is a way around this once they get into this state. I knew the end was near but I had no idea just how close it was and so I wasnt prepared. I hope you will be - just in case. Good luck. 

[waverider]

All4BVM I know a lot of what you are being advised here sounds like hopeless doom and gloom, but the point is if you have all your options and alternate plans clear in your mind, it means that you feel less trapped and are able to be more centered in your decision making.

This in itself often reduces things getting that far, it is the fear of the unknown that often prevents us making the right choices whatever they turn out to be.

[allibaba]

All4BVM I know a lot of what you are being advised here sounds like hopeless doom and gloom, but the point is if you have all your options and alternate plans clear in your mind, it means that you feel less trapped and are able to be more centered in your decision making.

This in itself often reduces things getting that far, it is the fear of the unknown that often prevents us making the right choices whatever they turn out to be.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. 

And just because you are documenting things --

and just because you have an escape plan --

doesn't mean that you are abandoning her or making a decision to move on. 

I felt so guilty having an escape plan... .I am honestly really dedicated to my husband, but using my escape plan was pivotal for me in being able to have firm boundaries to protect myself and my son against abusive behavior. 

My husband was completely dyregulated yesterday.  It lasted 2 hrs and the rage was through texting (I did a little validation and then pulled the plug on it).  I was feeling down about it until someone pointed out to me that 6 months ago the rage was verbally and emotionally abusive (complete with physical threats and name calling) and sometimes it went on for days.  Yesterday last two hours and even when he called he knew not to rage at me on the phone because I would pull the plug on him.  YAY for tiny victories.

[waverider]

It helps you stay calm, stops you feeling desperate, and above all you dont get caught with your head delusionaly buried in the sand if the worse does happen.

[Sluggo]

Dear All who have contributed,

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

I feel so humbled at all the input and genuine care that is so evident in these replies.  Thank you so much.  As you can imagine, it is so awesome to feel that support and not feel like I am alone-- that we are not alone.

A couple of thoughts (Sorry cant figure how to the boxes),   

[table]No problem.  I try to realize that inside my poor husband just hurts so badly sometimes[/table]

I meant with a friend today and it was another ahha moment (as I have also experienced in this forum).  My BPDw was brought up by an physically and verbally abusive mother and a father who had 2 other 'families' he was a father of with other kids (A common occurance from her country in South America).  My wife would talk about how she hated when her father would leave.  As he would leave 2-3 weeks at a time to go live with the other family.  He would always leave by saying something to the affect... .I will be back- I got to go to the store, to work, down the block, etc.  Then he wouldn't come back for 7-21 days.  She said her Mom would get more abusive when he was gone also.  The ahha connection was that I would suspect my wife HATED that other family he would go to.  And if my wife is trying to get some of her father needs met (perhaps subconciously by me), then she would indeed HATE anything that would remind her another family(s) that she would have to share with.  I may be reading too much into it, but I think I am getting closer to understanding her true triggering event and why she HATES my mom and family.  She often talks of my mom as my love for my mom is the same type of love I have for my wife.  So she had an abusive mother and a dad that would abandon her.   It doesn't change anything but helps me feel more empathy for her. 

My strongest bit of advice to you is to hold strong to YOUR reality. She is telling you a lot of things that she completely believes, but which don't seem to be reality. (i.e. You are causing the divorce) She is also giving you a lot of arbitrary demands. (i.e. Do not talk to me at meals; Tell people we are divorcing; etc.)

Yes I see how that is so true.  Just these last 10 days on this forum has helped with understanding reality.  My T talks much about helping me distinguish her reality compared to realty.  How facts may change to help justify her emotions. 

Actually, you know that's not correct.  It's blame shifting, trying to make you accept the guilt and feel guilty.  The fact is that there's probably some blame on both sides but she's trying to shift it all onto you.  Don't be conned. If the marriage does fail, she may try to claim abuse of some sort in order to gain the upper hand.  So be very careful not to give any excuse for her to claim it.  Typically when police respond and decide to cart one parent away, it's the man who is more likely to be the one removed even if he's not the problem.  Recall what she warned, "Next time I do that she will make a scene." I also see that she is trying to Control your interaction with your family, perhaps friends too.  On the one hand it could be that she wants to know she isn't treated any differently than they are.  Makes sense considering her sensitivity and in a more normal person that could be understandable.  On the other hand, isolation from one's family and friends is a typical disordered tactic - and it often succeeds, giving the other more Control in the relationship.  I'm concerned she's using such claims and those attempts to scrutinize your privacy, your communication with your family, to lead you into deeper isolation. I do hope the marriage can be rescued.  But if not, then please, please be prepared with Plan B.

Blame shifting ... .thank you that makes sense.  Yes I many times in the past would accept all blame whether it was my fault or not.  Many times I felt that if I accepted all the blame then I could apologize for it and hopefully make it go away.  I have come to realize how flawed that is to do.  And how it contributes to depression. 

Plan B.  Thank you for pointing that out.  I know in business there is always a plan B.  I can see without one how it makes you feel trapped.  I left a message to set up an appointment today. 

Someone who has BPD but isn't in treatment, and has decided not to get along with you, probably isn't going to change.

My wife has been in therapy for about 12 weeks now.  She goes 2 times a week.  What has been your experience with the pwBPD in therapy.  Does it Work, not work, how long to see some improvement, do the pwBPD continue with therapy. 

If the marriage can't be saved, the kids will be at high risk until custody is settled.  Kids who are raised by someone with BPD are at high risk for substance abuse, depression, and lots of other emotional and psychological problems.

That is a huge concern.  How much damage has been done.  Maybe a better topic for me to post on a different board but that is a concern... .is it better at home with severe dysfunction or separated with probable split custody. 

She sounds exactly the way mine was at the end and I'm not sure there is a way around this once they get into this state. I knew the end was near but I had no idea just how close it was and so I wasnt prepared. I hope you will be - just in case.

Isn't amazing how similar many of these stories are. 

it is the fear of the unknown that often prevents us making the right choices whatever they turn out to be.

Thank you for that reminder. 

I felt so guilty having an escape plan... .I am honestly really dedicated to my husband, but using my escape plan was pivotal for me in being able to have firm boundaries to protect myself and my son against abusive behavior

.

That is what I was feeling as reading some of the posts... .Gosh I will feel guility if I go to a lawyer, money stashed, recordings and saving emails.  There is something about be passive - which has contributed to me being in the place I am--  as compared to being assertive and having the energy and organization to do what it takes. 

My husband was completely dyregulated yesterday.  It lasted 2 hrs and the rage was through texting (I did a little validation and then pulled the plug on it).  I was feeling down about it until someone pointed out to me that 6 months ago the rage was verbally and emotionally abusive (complete with physical threats and name calling) and sometimes it went on for days.  Yesterday last two hours and even when he called he knew not to rage at me on the phone because I would pull the plug on him.  YAY for tiny victories.

Thanks for the reality check... .this is a lifelong commitment to some craziness but nice to see it does get better.  What did you mean that you pulled the plug on the validation.  What did that look like... .what does that mean.   GREAT JOB on the tiny victory!

It helps you stay calm, stops you feeling desperate, and above all you dont get caught with your head delusionaly buried in the sand if the worse does happen.

Great recap on all posts.  Thank you!

[Matt]

My personal experience (which I think is similar to some others here):

Someone who has BPD but isn't in treatment, and has decided not to get along with you, probably isn't going to change.

My wife has been in therapy for about 12 weeks now.  She goes 2 times a week.  What has been your experience with the pwBPD in therapy.  :)oes it Work, not work, how long to see some improvement, do the pwBPD continue with therapy.

I think it's safe to say that most people with BPD don't accept treatment and stay with it.  Some studies have shown that someone with BPD who gets the right kind of treatment - maybe ":)ialectic Behavior Therapy" - and stays with it long-term - years not weeks or months - is very likely to get better.  One study done by a group affiliated with Harvard Medical School reported more than 80% of those who stayed in therapy for 5 years achieved "remission" of major symptoms of BPD.  But it takes complete commitment and honesty by the person with BPD - nobody can do it for him.  She'll have to accept that he has a problem and needs help to change.  If she's at that point, you'll know it - she'll be honest and will begin to make amends.  But if she's still blaming others for her actions, I don't think all the therapy in the world will help.  (To be clear, this is my layman's view - I'm not a professional in this field.)



---

If the marriage can't be saved, the kids will be at high risk until custody is settled.  Kids who are raised by someone with BPD are at high risk for substance abuse, depression, and lots of other emotional and psychological problems.

That is a huge concern.  How much damage has been done.  Maybe a better topic for me to post on a different board but that is a concern... .is it better at home with severe dysfunction or separated with probable split custody.

You can't fix any damage that has been done, but you can do your best to figure out what will be best for the kids going forward.  You're asking the right question - which is better, one dysfunctional home or splitting time between two homes?  For my kids - 8 and 10 when we separated - I thought the answer was to stay together, but looking back, it's clear that the separation and divorce were the right thing to do.  I was able to quickly establish a "new normal" - a quiet, peaceful home where I could meet their needs.  Over the years, they have spent more and more time with me, and they are doing great.  I feel bad that they have to go back and forth - I don't think that is best - but it's the best I could do, and judging from results - their big brother and big sister were raised primarily by their BPD mom and have pretty big issues, but the younger two are doing very well in every way.

[allibaba]

Thanks for the reality check... .this is a lifelong commitment to some craziness but nice to see it does get better.  What did you mean that you pulled the plug on the validation.  What did that look like... .what does that mean.   GREAT JOB on the tiny victory!

First off, I did some validation about what was upsetting him (that it was not unreasonable that he was so stressed out etc) and then he continued with texting abuse so I pulled the plug on the texting communication.  I don't validate once he's off on a tirade... .at that point it doesn't help and usually makes him angry.  Validation plays a role in avoiding dyregulated behavior but I won't sit and calmly have a discussion if he is yelling at me. 

I ignored most of the tirade.  When he sent a message saying "I see everything else is more important than me."  I waited a few minutes and responded "absolutely not, I am sorry that you feel neglected.  Unfortunately I am in a meeting.  We can talk more when I get home."  When I got home he had calmed down.

Yes, this is a lifelong commitment and you can have an impact on your life in a positive way without your wife's 'buy-in'.  By following the lessons, you can improve the situation for you and your kids. 

Some people begin to implement boundaries and there is a massive extinction burst (tantrum) and things start to see improvement (for me today, and zaqsert for example).  Mine was so horrible I wasn't sure that our marriage would make it through it.  I had to call the police on my husband  and he ended up having a massive meltdown because he couldn't believe how out of control he had gotten.

Others start to put boundaries in place and see their marriage go up in flames (Matt, ForeverDad). 

Unfortunately you cannot control the outcome -- that is up to your wife.  DBT (therapy) can help but don't count on your wife fixing herself... .this really is a lifelong commitment.  Its absolutely OK if you decide to get a divorce. 

Many, many on this board have asked the same question that you do about "severe dysfunction or separated with probable split custody" (momtara recently asked this on a post called "making it work with children" or something like that.  I think that it absolutely depends.  In my situation today, my husband and I are really close... .we share a lot of beliefs, hobbies, values that are the same.  He is an amazing father and today I believe that our son is better off with us together.  I adore his family and who my husband is... .its just I have to be realistic... .he's broken in certain ways.  My husband brings a lot of good things to the table.  I play an active role in offsetting the BPD crazy behavior to protect our son. 

For me, today, I believe that together in a home with some dysfunction but a 'mostly healthy' mom as an example is better than split custody.  As a man, trying to get more custody you have to prepare, prepare, prepare and be ready if you go through a divorce.  I'm glad that you are 'making an appt'.  If things go south its best for your kids if you have documented a lot.  Know your jurisdictions rules and be READY!  Matt and ForeverDad are really good resources and so is the entire legal board.

Again SO SO SO glad that you are here.  We're all rooting for you.

[allibaba]

PS Good for you for starting to try to understand some of the roots of her illness (basically an abusive upbringing).  It will allow you to tap into better empathy when she's acting 'nutty'.  Getting out of the 'poor me' mentality was what allowed me to start taking my life back

[waverider]

Getting out of the 'poor me' mentality was what allowed me to start taking my life back

This is the real starting block. It is your life, live it by choice, no one else can live it for you. Even doing nothing is OK as long as you choose to do nothing. Living by default was the downfall of most of us.

[Sluggo]

Matt,

Thank you. 

You can't fix any damage that has been done, but you can do your best to figure out what will be best for the kids going forward.  You're asking the right question - which is better, one dysfunctional home or splitting time between two homes?  For my kids - 8 and 10 when we separated - I thought the answer was to stay together, but looking back, it's clear that the separation and divorce were the right thing to do.  I was able to quickly establish a "new normal" - a quiet, peaceful home where I could meet their needs.  Over the years, they have spent more and more time with me, and they are doing great.  I feel bad that they have to go back and forth - I don't think that is best - but it's the best I could do, and judging from results - their big brother and big sister were raised primarily by their BPD mom and have pretty big issues, but the younger two are doing very well in every way.

Thank you.  I do wrestle with... .am I staying because I am not strong enough to make that break but using the kids as my 'excuse' to not be strong and make the decision.  What are my real motivations?  kids, desire to make it work, depressed of all the memories I have with my wife that I can't share with her, perceived reputation and shame in my faith community, love for her, etc.  Perhaps I should post this on the staying/leaving board.  But it is something that I struggle with.

[ForeverDad]

"Staying for the kids" generally fails.  Often it is done because we're (1) naturally reluctant to give up our dreams and hopes and (2) uninformed about the whys and wherefores and non-intuitive but better options.  Too often, in our high conflict situations, "Staying" when we're being obstructed and sabotaged means we're not only making sacrifices, we're also sacrificing ourselves and our parenting by appeasement and in other ways.  Some might disagree with this thought, but I venture to say that "making sacrifices" within reason is fine but sacrificing yourself, sacrificing your parenting and sacrificing your parenting example is dangerous long term.

A benefit of providing a calm, peaceful and stable home separate from the disordered parent, even if only for portion of the children's lives is that (1) the children have at least a part of their lives that is reasonably normal, (2) the children see the difference between normal parenting and abnormal parenting, (3) you provide an example of what standards and boundaries you hold for proper behaviors and (4) your children are more likely to model your better boundaries and perceptions when they grow up and choose their own adult relationships.

Staying does make sense (1) while you're getting educated about the disorder, learning about better communication skills and learning how to build better relationship boundaries, (2) when you're able to see improvements in the relationship and (3) in order to improve yourself and your case better with documentation, etc to face potential legal hurdles of separation from a stronger position.

Meanwhile, it is wise to reserve for yourself the right to periodically reevaluate and reconsider all decisions based on how things are progressing - or not.

[allibaba]

Meanwhile, it is wise to reserve for yourself the right to periodically reevaluate and reconsider all decisions based on how things are progressing - or not.

- it is wise!  These things constantly need to be monitored.  I may be doing all the right things for the right reasons and still my situation gets so bad that I am forced to leave.  I really hope not but I understand that this is the nature of mental illness.  At the end of the day, my son and I come first and we won't stay on a stinking ship.  That day hasn't come and I hope that it never does.

The key for me is to understand that I absolutely cannot control the outcome of this journey.  I can only take care of myself, take care of my son, take care of my responsibilities toward my husband (the reasonable ones).

In my heart of hearts, I truly believe that my marriage will work.  I believe that because I have a lot more in my relationship than FOG (fear, obligation, guilt).  I truly believe that I am so important to my husband that I will be more important than the disease in the end and I will win out.  If I am incorrect, I believe that I am no worse off for trying and putting my heart and soul into this recovery.  That's just me though and everyone is different... .  my situation is that my husband was VERY high functioning before some VERY bad things happened to him.  I knew my husband before the mental illness really took hold (about 5 yrs ago) - I think in some ways it makes the relationship easier to fight for.

The good news in all of this is that there is hope for all of us.  Good things can happen to you if you chose them (whether your relationship ends up working or not).  For now, you are staying and you have a good base attitude, good tools and good support!

[allibaba]

*Then allibaba slowly backs away from her soapbox and vows to drink less coffee*   

[ForeverDad]

I stayed far longer than some others would have stayed.  I was uninformed, reluctant to give up on my dreams, firm in my conviction that it was worth some pain to follow my moral conviction that marriage is not to be abandoned without good reason.

I do not regret the time while I "stayed".  It was the right thing for me to do at that time and I stand by it.  I did keep trying to find a way to make it work.  I tried to get help from the congregation.  I tried to get help from joint counseling.  I tried to prepare for that sad "what if all else fails" outcome.

Unfortunately you cannot control the outcome -- that is up to your wife.  DBT (therapy) can help but don't count on your wife fixing herself... .this really is a lifelong commitment.

Nor do I regret the time when I decided I had no choice but to "leave".  I had truly tried but nothing had worked, I continued to be obstructed, invalidated and my parenting increasingly blocked.  It was then time to re-prioritize myself, my children and my parenting.

Footnote:  It was only after I learned what I was dealing with (probable Borderline, Paranoid, etc PDs) and the police and courts had gotten involved that I arrived at this site.  So I didn't have a chance to be "Staying" as a member here.  As I look back, I don't see how it would have made that much difference in the outcome, but I do know I would have at least tried "Staying" here if I had been at that point in my life when I joined.

You may "Stay" for a short time or a long time.  That's your decision.  Just Stay or Leave for the right informed reasons.

[Grey Kitty]

More on staying for the right reasons:

If you really work on staying right now, all that work will help you whatever path you take. (Have you read any of the lessons yet? They are in the sidebar ------> You will find lots of really helpful things in them if you haven't already)

The tools you will learn here will help you better cope with your wife and her issues as you stay.

If you decide you cannot stay, then those same tools will help you deal with the fallout in a separation, and also help you continue to deal with her, as you have years of joint custody should you separate.

I view the important commitment to staying is not that you commit to stay forever, or even for a given period of time--the important commitment is that you are going to work as hard as you can to improve the relationship you are staying in.

That's what I hope you find here on the staying board.

 GK

[Matt]

Footnote:  It was only after I learned what I was dealing with (probable Borderline, Paranoid, etc PDs) and the police and courts had gotten involved that I arrived at this site.  So I didn't have a chance to be "Staying" as a member here.  As I look back, I don't see how it would have made that much difference in the outcome, but I do know I would have at least tried "Staying" here if I had been at that point in my life when I joined.

People think I'm joking when I say, "It was in jail that I realized, maybe this marriage isn't working.", but I'm not.  I literally was 100% committed to making the marriage work - at least til my kids were grown - until my wife accused me of stuff and I went to jail.

That's the wake-up call I needed.  Looking back, there were plenty of other wake-up calls, but my eyes weren't open.  (Sorry for the mixed metaphors!)  It was literally while spending the night in jail that I just wasn't able to ignore reality any more;  I had to acknowledge that all my efforts to make things better had failed completely.

The next day, talking to a criminal defense attorney, I understood that continuing to pretend would put me at even higher risk - a second accusation, even with no evidence, would have more serious consequences.

So... .this is a tough one for many of us, to put it mildly.

Is there any reason to believe that he accepts that he has a problem, and needs help?

Does he take meaningful steps to change?

Does he tell the truth about what's happening, or does he tell others (and maybe himself) stories to avoid responsibility?

What risks do you face in staying?

And... .is it possible that a "therapeutic separation" or some other half-way safe-resting-spot might help?  Maybe allow you to set some healthy boundaries, and also allow time for positive steps to be taken... .?

[waverider]

Staying while working through a lot of these issues, and having a mindset to stay is good. Even if ultimately leaving becomes inevitable. It makes that final leaving more centered, you will have gone a long way to repairing yourself BEFORE making that decision. Many leave, then spend forever trying work out why, and live endlessly filled with "if onlys'.

If you approach it with an I am staying mentality and work on yourself while in the midst of it, you come to a fuller understanding of yourself, what you can, and cannot do. Apparent miracles do happen and things can turn around, and you will never be left wondering if that was possible.

The important thing to realize is that YOU are damaged as a result of this disorder, you are in the process of repairing YOU. In the relationship is the best place to start, if you can. Then reassess as you learn and your expectations change. It is an evolution and does not occur overnight.

[Sluggo]

First off, I did some validation about what was upsetting him (that it was not unreasonable that he was so stressed out etc) and then he continued with texting abuse so I pulled the plug on the texting communication.  I don't validate once he's off on a tirade... .at that point it doesn't help and usually makes him angry.  Validation plays a role in avoiding dyregulated behavior but I won't sit and calmly have a discussion if he is yelling at me

.

Thanks for the reminder and again realizing that it is a lifetime of learning and growing in virtues when they get upset. 

Staying while working through a lot of these issues, and having a mindset to stay is good. Even if ultimately leaving becomes inevitable. It makes that final leaving more centered, you will have gone a long way to repairing yourself BEFORE making that decision. Many leave, then spend forever trying work out why, and live endlessly filled with "if onlys'.

I can definitely see what your are saying about repairing myself and then if it is inevitable I will have at fully thought through the decision.  I do dread thinking about the what ifs, and only ifs.  It has taken me 15 years to get to this place in my life.  I wonder from time to time in how I got myself to this point.  Sometimes my what ifs are... .what if I never went on that first date, met her, or took her brother's advice in warning me about her anger.  But I have learned so much about myself in this process and hopefully one day pass on some wisdom as you all have found the venue to 'pay forward' your experience. 

If you approach it with an I am staying mentality and work on yourself while in the midst of it, you come to a fuller understanding of yourself, what you can, and cannot do. Apparent miracles do happen and things can turn around, and you will never be left wondering if that was possible.

The important thing to realize is that YOU are damaged as a result of this disorder, you are in the process of repairing YOU. In the relationship is the best place to start, if you can. Then reassess as you learn and your expectations change. It is an evolution and does not occur overnight.

Haven't thought about this but yes have been damaged by all of this.  I think about how I use to feel before marriage compared to how I feel know.  I am amazed how much better I feel now than 3 years ago when I started therapy (when I was diagnosed with depression and dependency issues and my wife diagnosed with BPD).  It is as if my mind became rewired over time as I became more and more depressed as I turned my anger inward.

People think I'm joking when I say, "It was in jail that I realized, maybe this marriage isn't working.", but I'm not.  I literally was 100% committed to making the marriage work - at least til my kids were grown - until my wife accused me of stuff and I went to jail.

That did make me laugh out loud.  One of the first times I shared what was 'the full story' of what was really happening inside my house to other family members was when my BPDw called the police on me (about 8 weeks ago).  She had told me to leave the bedroom while I was sleeping and when I refused she turned on the lights, turn phone radio on full blast, pull off my covers, and threw all my clothes in to the hallway.  I grabbed the phoneradio and we wrestled for it and I got it and turned it off.  She picked up house phone and called police.  They didn't do anything when they came out.  But that was a whole new level of escalation for me in my mind.  Sadly enough only 4 weeks before that incident she left huge bruises on my bicep from pinching it and literately shattered my phone while it was in a protective shell.   

Is there any reason to believe that he accepts that he has a problem, and needs help?

She has shared with me in a calm moment where she knows she is jealous and has a problem with expressing anger.  That was a good 16-20 weeks ago.

Does she take meaningful steps to change?

 

She has been going to therapy 2 times a week for about 8-10 weeks.

Does she tell the truth about what's happening, or does he tell others (and maybe himself) stories to avoid responsibility?

I am not sure what she is saying to others.  However there has always been a blaming or lack of taking ownership of her when something unpleasant happens.  Such as : spilling milk- it would be beause there was to much in it, or distortions in our arguments, or blaming kids for things in the house.  It usually needs to be somebodys fault. 

What risks do you face in staying?

Escalation of fights, being verbally abused and embarrassed in front of the kids at home. 

And... .is it possible that a "therapeutic separation" or some other half-way safe-resting-spot might help?  Maybe allow you to set some healthy boundaries, and also allow time for positive steps to be taken... .?

She says she wont leave the home.  I am afraid if I leave it would be considered abandonment of the children and thus hurting my chances of custody.  Sleeping in different rooms currently and no communication is the space we have now. 

If you really work on staying right now, all that work will help you whatever path you take. (Have you read any of the lessons yet? They are in the sidebar ------> You will find lots of really helpful things in them if you haven't already)

The tools you will learn here will help you better cope with your wife and her issues as you stay.

Yes I see there is no downside in continuing to obtain more healing.  This forum has been great.  I have learned so much already.  I will continue. 

I view the important commitment to staying is not that you commit to stay forever, or even for a given period of time--the important commitment is that you are going to work as hard as you can to improve the relationship you are staying in.

  Great way to put it! 

I stayed far longer than some others would have stayed.  I was uninformed, reluctant to give up on my dreams, firm in my conviction that it was worth some pain to follow my moral conviction that marriage is not to be abandoned without good reason.

I do not regret the time while I "stayed".  It was the right thing for me to do at that time and I stand by it.  I did keep trying to find a way to make it work.  I tried to get help from the congregation.  I tried to get help from joint counseling.  I tried to prepare for that sad "what if all else fails" outcome.

I am starting to feel (or at least I think I perceive) that since sharing more of the 'real' story with my family they think I should be leaving this relationship ASAP especially with the email receieved on Monday.  I am fearful that  I don't want to be influenced by there 'desire' for me to leave but that I make my decision for myself.  At the same time though I know they come from a more 'healthy perspective' than I do.

I believe that because I have a lot more in my relationship than FOG (fear, obligation, guilt).

  I need to read up more on FOG.  I am unfamiliar with that phrase.

Insert Quote

"Staying for the kids" generally fails.  Often it is done because we're (1) naturally reluctant to give up our dreams and hopes and (2) uninformed about the whys and wherefores and non-intuitive but better options.  Too often, in our high conflict situations, "Staying" when we're being obstructed and sabotaged means we're not only making sacrifices, we're also sacrificing ourselves and our parenting by appeasement and in other ways.  Some might disagree with this thought, but I venture to say that "making sacrifices" within reason is fine but sacrificing yourself, sacrificing your parenting and sacrificing your parenting example is dangerous long term.

A benefit of providing a calm, peaceful and stable home separate from the disordered parent, even if only for portion of the children's lives is that (1) the children have at least a part of their lives that is reasonably normal, (2) the children see the difference between normal parenting and abnormal parenting, (3) you provide an example of what standards and boundaries you hold for proper behaviors and (4) your children are more likely to model your better boundaries and perceptions when they grow up and choose their own adult relationships.

Staying does make sense (1) while you're getting educated about the disorder, learning about better communication skills and learning how to build better relationship boundaries, (2) when you're able to see improvements in the relationship and (3) in order to improve yourself and your case better with documentation, etc to face potential legal hurdles of separation from a stronger position.

Meanwhile, it is wise to reserve for yourself the right to periodically reevaluate and reconsider all decisions based on how things are progressing - or not.

Thank you for the other viewpoints on raising kids.  That is very good stuff and I will reread it  a couple of times to let it sink in.  I have been thinking about that a lot today already. 

[Sluggo]

In making a plan B... .would you suggest getting a different bank account.  Currently everything we have is joint.  I am afraid it could spark a bon fire and severe aggression if I were to start separating things out.  What are your thoughts

[Matt]

One of the first times I shared what was 'the full story' of what was really happening inside my house to other family members was when my BPDw called the police on me (about 8 weeks ago).  She had told me to leave the bedroom while I was sleeping and when I refused she turned on the lights, turn phone radio on full blast, pull off my covers, and threw all my clothes in to the hallway.  I grabbed the phoneradio and we wrestled for it and I got it and turned it off.  She picked up house phone and called police.  They didn't do anything when they came out.  But that was a whole new level of escalation for me in my mind.  Sadly enough only 4 weeks before that incident she left huge bruises on my bicep from pinching it and literately shattered my phone while it was in a protective shell.   

What would you advise someone else who had these experiences?

I think you're getting great inputs from everybody here, and I'm glad the focus on this Staying board is so helpful and insightful for those who are looking for ways to make difficult situations work.

These hostile, aggressive and dishonest behaviors make me very concerned for you - what might happen next... .

[ForeverDad]

In making a plan B... .would you suggest getting a different bank account.  Currently everything we have is joint.  I am afraid it could spark a bon fire and severe aggression if I were to start separating things out.  What are your thoughts?

While that is a reasonable and logical step, yes it would probably be triggering to her to see the auto deposits from your paychecks stop.  Do her paychecks go into the same account as yours?

First, there's no harm in keeping the joint bank account.  Yes, she could bounce checks on it but I think that's the worst she can do?  Maybe others can chime in on that.

Second, lots of spouses have multiple accounts, some joint, some  personal.  Granted, that peaceful coexistence doesn't with spouses in conflict.  Still, you could start your own personal account, fund it slowly and have statements mailed elsewhere.  (If you bank online then you have to avoid risks of her snooping, keylogging, interrogating, doing credit searches on you, etc.)

In my case my ex was making ever-increasing demands, late night rants "to fix my problems", etc.  Well, we went to replace my failing car and bought a newer but used one.  She did go with me but refused to be a joint owner.  Well, when I tried to get a loan from my retirement account to pay for it, my company had it set up with J&S provisions that required the spouse sign off on the potential impact to spousal rights of inheritance.  Yeah, you can guess what happened, she refused to sign the simple disclaimer about her rights as spouse.   Was that dealer angry!  I had to rush to my mortgage bank to set up a loan.  While there I decided to set up a personal checking account and started sending my paychecks there.  When my ex found out she of course raged, it was a control issue for her.  I explained to her that it was a "package deal" from my mortgage bank, it was her refusal to sign that made me go to the bank.  (I didn't volunteer that it was my idea to do the package deal all in my name alone and not the bank's requirement.  I knew better than to volunteer or divulge that information.)  It sure didn't help our relationship but in reality it couldn't make it any worse either, it was going downhill that fast.

[waverider]

I have no intention of splitting, and I am sure my partner wont. There is no way I would have joint account. We tried it once and it was a disaster having essential finances at the disposal of an impulsive whim. Add vindictiveness into the equation, and I dread to think.

Matt is right it is a diplomatic process to start weaning away from it. But at least if you have the accounts set up and the avenue there, it is there for a potential emergency bail out if necessary. Like all back ups, knowing it is there makes you feel less vulnerable.

Not saying you should siphon all the family finances, just make sure that you are not at the mercy of being left completely high and dry.

[Sluggo]

What would you advise someone else who had these experiences?

I think I would say you need to get her out of the house. 

She has calmed down since Sunday.  Still no communication with me except texting practical matters which I don't really respond except with an OK or other short answer.  I did use the SET technique that allibi suggested.  However I hand wrote it and gave it to her in a letter- I know it was suggested to say it verbally but I felt I could get it all said in letter and may not have been able to in trying to communicate it verbally.  .  She responded on Tuesday by text and then again this morning by text saying she doesnt really understand. She wrote this to me today and on Tuesday.   

I did read ur note.  i don't really understand/confuse to what you want.  We both carry to much pain and anger inside of us that's why we can't communicate verbally for more than a minute before we start saying bad things to each other and causing more pain and hate.  U can text me whenever you want to say.  I think it is safer for 4 both of us doing that way.

I didn't write back until today.  I reiterated the SET letter that I gave her on Monday and told her I would be happy to sit down more and talk about it over a cup off coffee, icecream, etc.  I haven't heard

What do you guys and gals thoughts in what was written.  Am I being blind to the inevitable (separation) or is this her reaching out, or is it something else. 

  Thanks all4bvm

[ForeverDad]

Apparently she is smart enough to know that that you two have too much emotional damage to communicate well in person.  I'll ignore the "who is at fault" issue, for obvious reasons.  That's where joint counseling comes in.  An experienced emotionally neutral professional might be able to guide the sessions without triggering emotional objections as much, something you obviously cannot accomplish due to the past history that is so overwhelming to her.

(I tried to do joint counseling, my then-spouse refused.  You may or may not have better results.)

I have no intention of splitting, and I am sure my partner wont. There is no way I would have joint account. We tried it once and it was a disaster having essential finances at the disposal of an impulsive whim. Add vindictiveness into the equation, and I dread to think.

I didn't think about the "draining the account" aspect.  Yes, that is another downside of joint accounts, including joint credit card accounts.

What I did after I got my package of personal checking account and car loan was to write a smaller check to the joint account to pay the miscellaneous expenses.  My then-spouse was fuming but hey she was already doing that anyway.

This reminds me, we had a joint savings account for our child, then only 3 years old.  Once we separated, she drained it and closed it.  As for our joint checking account, it sat relatively dormant during the divorce and then when I paid short term alimony, I paid it monthly by depositing into that account.  That way I avoided the government's 2% handling fee by CSEA.

Fortunately we did not have joint credit accounts.  When we separated: (1) I called her account and asked them to cancel my cardholder card and (2) I called my account and as account owner I canceled her cardholder card.  Fortunately we did not carry much card debt.

I didn't change my will and insurance beneficiaries until the divorce final decree.

[Sluggo]

Apparently she is smart enough to know that that you two have too much emotional damage to communicate well in person.  I'll ignore the "who is at fault" issue, for obvious reasons.  That's where joint counseling comes in.  An experienced emotionally neutral professional might be able to guide the sessions without triggering emotional objections as much, something you obviously cannot accomplish due to the past history that is so overwhelming to her

.

We did about 9 sessions of joint couseling up until about 10 weeks ago.  The counselor told us in the last session that he didn't think our marriage will make it.  He said he didn't see much hope for us.  For our next session, my wife stated that she didn't think it was good for us to continue as she felt we were waisting money and that she started going to counseling.  That is we would have my T sessions, her sessions, and joint sessions.   However that was about 10 weeks ago, maybe that would be something good to bring up again with her. 

I didn't write back until today.  I reiterated the SET letter that I gave her on Monday and told her I would be happy to sit down more and talk about it over a cup off coffee, icecream, etc.  I haven't heard

She did text back and said she would talk tonight.  She did throw in a little zinger that she wanted to talk in the house as she could not even think of going out of the house with me.  But Now just in the last few minutes I have recieved about 10 texts... .Here is what that said I  read over and over your letter and dtill dont get what you want.  I dont have any problem believing you love the kids... .I have never questioned that.  I DONT BELEIVE you or want to hear u about ur love fro me.  Wherever us call love its not what I need or want.  Like I told you several weeks ago, everyday passing I feel more and more comfortable knowing that finally there is a way for me to detach from ur family forever.  I can't see any way right now that u can do to make me feel different or change my mind.  You telling me that u Love is not enough.  Thee Love that u are showing me over the years and especially over the last 7 weeks its not enough for me to take away the pain and hate ur family.  Love is not just a word, it is an action. U r good saying that you love me but u do not show it.  U say one thing but do the opposite thing.  If you think the solution to end this.  Its 4 you to come to me and say i love you. well you are wrong.  I believe in ur love the 14 years and all you did its causing me more pain and hate.  I was stupid to believe that your love was enough to handleing being around ure family.  That never worked.  The paid got so deep right now it ís like stage 4 cancer, very little hope to survive.   Don't come to me and just say I love you as your words dpn't mean anything to me. I'm in so much pain/hurt, the wound is so deep and infected with hate that fro me to change my mind about Divorce you  need to have an action plan that convince me that things will be different not for 1 week, or a month, but forever.  U can text me or email ur action plan and after I read it I can let you know if its worthy to talk over that.  That is the only way I will accept to talk with you tonight.

Am I being just foolished thinking there is something to salvage.  I feel pressure to come up with that perfect solution for her.  I don't think there is a perfect solution.  But I know that she will judge if I send her as 'silver' bullet solution.  The silver bullet I see her accepting would be a total disregard for my needs and wants if they are in anyway contrary to her needs.  It makes me sad thinking that could be something I could tell her and she would be fine with it.  But I would be selling my "personhood"away to get that. 

What do you all hearing in her texting.  Where am I off base, on target, or need to see more clearly.   

[ForeverDad]

About affairs... .Let's ignore whose fault it was or was not... .Over the centuries, a consistent concept regarding divorce has been that infidelity was a valid basis for divorce and the marriage bond broken.  Seen from that perspective and ignoring who had fault or not or even shared fault, the fact remains that infidelity can end a marriage.  Saying you love her could either (1) be a starting point to possibly save the marriage or (2) be rejected.  Thus far she's given every indication she won't resume the marriage.  Whether she is disordered or not, you should accept her decision.  These days, at least in the eyes of the law, either spouse can decide to end a marriage.

Others here can comment on whether this is wise or not but I feel you need to let go of your protests that you love her, clearly that is irritating her.  Yes, it's not good for her to rehash the affair over and over, that's unhealthy but you still need to let go your protests of love, at least for now, since it is triggering her greatly.  When you keep trying to protest otherwise and reason with her, that isn't working.  She's reacting on an excessively emotional level and logical reasoning won't work.

"The counselor told us in the last session that he didn't think our marriage will make it.  He said he didn't see much hope for us."  While we weren't there, that was probably a valid observation.  Accept that.  You may need to shift from spouse-parent to just parent.  (Beware, she may think that if you don't qualify in her eyes as spouse then you shouldn't be a parent either.  That is an invalid and wrong connection but she's likely to think that and try to do that.)  Sad, but that looks like your reality unless she changes significantly for the better.

[allibaba]

I'm just going to comment on what she wrote:

She's clearly dyregulated... .pushing you away.  I WOULD NOT argue with her over and over again that you love her.  Gets into a circular argument that you cannot win.  I know in times I have to back off of the I LOVE YOU tact with my husband and give him space (when he's dyregulated).

There is clearly one serious and major issue for her and she is like a dog with a bone on that one.  YOUR FAMILY OR ME.  This is not an appropriate choice to make a spouse make.  She's making demands that are unreasonable.  I will say that my husband could have easily written that note when he's dyregulated... .he would have just added more swear words and abusive language and I believe that I am his whole world.  Don't put too much weight into one venting of feelings.  They change daily. 

More senior folks... . how would you deal with this? Its completely obvious now to me that she's punishing you over the boundary that you put in place regarding your family.  Is there a communication that could be done about the boundary/ her feelings about your family?  This is the core issue.

Obviously you can't put together an action plan that will convince her that things will be better.  Don't bother trying.  In this case, talk (or writing and texting ) is cheap.  Any changes you make in the way that you handle her need to be done... .not talked about.  I'd probably reconsider how to communicate the fact that wanting a relationship with your family does not mean that you want to exclude her from her life.  I might say something about the fact that right now you do not want to pursue divorce.  I'd simply respond to her note and say something acknowledging the pain that she is feeling and giving her some space.

S= Support refers to an initial statement which indicates the loved one supports the person with borderline personality. It is a statement that begins with "I" and demonstrates concern and a desire to help. The support statement is meant to reassure the BP that the relationship is a safe one, and that her needs matter even during this difficult moment.  Thank you for being open about how much pain you are in right now.

E= Empathy refers to communicating that the loved one understands what the BP is feeling, and focuses on "you." It is not a conveyance of pity or sympathy, but instead a true awareness and validation of the feelings of the BP: "I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me," "How frustrating this must be for you."  It is important not to tell the BP how she is feeling, but instead put her demonstrated feelings into words. The goal is to convey a clear understanding of the uncomfortable feelings she is having and that they are OK.  It must be really frustrating to believe that I prefer my family over you.

Truth 

T= Truth refers to a realistic and honest assessment of the situation and the BPs role in solving the problem. It is an objective statement that focuses on the "it" -- not on the subjective experience of the BP or Non-BP. Often the BP may seem to be asking, or demanding, something impossible, not taking an active role or responsibility in resolving the issue, or even presenting you with a "no-win" situation. The truth statement is meant to clearly and honestly respond to the difficult demand or behavior of the BP, while placing responsibility appropriately: "This is what I can do…," "This is what will happen…,"    My parents etc, are important to me and I don't feel comfortable excluding them from my life. 

Definitely need some input from others here... . 

maybe either say something about giving her space... .

or maybe empower her to make a decision regarding you and your family.  In other words, you have already told her that you can't give them up... .OPTION A would she like for you to include her more in interactions with them (maybe plan a dinner) or

OPTION B would she prefer for you to make sure that she isn't aware of the interactions that you have with them because she has said that she hates them so much. 

She's having a tantrum because you told her that she doesn't get to control the communication between you and your family... .that's obvious.

I can't remember all of your backstory so I am not sure what the best solution is here.

Have you read the Lessons?  ------>

The situation that concerns me is that your wife called the police on you.  Thank you for honestly sharing about that.  It confirms that clearly you need to tread with caution in all interactions with her.  I have called the police on my husband twice.  Once because he hit me and once because he threatened to take our son away against my will and he became seriously physically abusive.  There is a time and a place for calling the police... .just be careful.

[Matt]

More senior folks... . how would you deal with this? Its completely obvious now to me that she's punishing you over the boundary that you put in place regarding your family.  Is there a communication that could be done about the boundary/ her feelings about your family?  This is the core issue.

All4BVM, what is the issue with your family?  Are they very involved in some way, or did something happen in the past which your wife hasn't gotten over?  (My apologies if you have already talked about this... .)

I certainly think Allibaba is right to highlight this issue - it sounds a lot like "Because of some problem with your family, I don't want to be married to you or work on our issues together.", which doesn't leave you with many options... .