asking him not to be who he is?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi y'all.  Here's the thread this is a continuation of:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210455.0

I feel like I've refined my question quite a bit.  I feel like I do need to raise the hurtful dynamic with him, and ask for what would make it better for me.  If he can't make the adjustment, or deal with my request, well, that's information I have to assimilate, so I stop hoping for it to be different.

I'd say about half the advice on the prior thread was along the lines of "you need to truly accept that this is how he is" (engages in push-pull, departs emphatically when we've been very close, leaves, does not stay, is not steady & reliable).  And about half was along the lines of "you need to speak your truth."

Before I send the message I drafted, I'd really appreciate any further thoughts on whether telling someone wBPD that it's hard on you when they withdraw after being close, is just a foolish effort (because it isn't going to change, they are inevitably going to push, and asking for them to attend to that if they can, isn't going to make anything better).

[patientandclear]

Hi y'all.  Here's the thread this is a continuation of:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210455.0

I feel like I've refined my question quite a bit.  I feel like I do need to raise the hurtful dynamic with him, and ask for what would make it better for me.  If he can't make the adjustment, or deal with my request, well, that's information I have to assimilate, so I stop hoping for it to be different.

I'd say about half the advice on the prior thread was along the lines of "you need to truly accept that this is how he is" (engages in push-pull, departs emphatically when we've been very close, leaves, does not stay, is not steady & reliable).  And about half was along the lines of "you need to speak your truth."

Before I send the message I drafted, I'd really appreciate any further thoughts on whether telling someone wBPD that it's hard on you when they withdraw after being close, is just a foolish effort (because it isn't going to change, they are inevitably going to push, and asking for them to attend to that if they can, isn't going to make anything better).

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

*** REVISED OPENING POST ***

(Sorry, had to step away till it was too late to modify!)

Here's a better statement of what I'm wondering about.

Hi y'all.  Here's the thread this is a continuation of:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210455.0

I'd say about half the advice on the prior thread was along the lines of "you need to truly accept that this is how he is" (engages in push-pull, departs emphatically when we've been very close, leaves, does not stay, is not steady & reliable).  And about half was along the lines of "you need to speak your truth."  WWT advised "do nothing for the moment & consider & get in a better place."  Phoebe advised, if I read it correctly, "be yourself, truly yourself, stop being afraid, and just be in the relationship without trying to talk everything through, and see where it goes."  That advice rang true to me.  A few others (Rosanna, Seashells) were saying, essentially, you've got to bring the hurtful dynamics out into the open & let them be discussed and dealt with -- you have to stand up for yourself -- and also, you have to accept the result.  And a session of lifespan integration therapy (amazing stuff BTW) to deal with my traumatic reactions to this relationship has made me feel that bringing the issue out into the open is better for me.

But here's my question.  Just before the thread ended, I was asking whether it makes any sense to try to address the basic dynamic of push-pull, with someone wBPD, because ... .is it really something they can change? Is it the equivalent of saying "I can't accept you as you are?"  Some posters on the old thread (Sunflower Fields) made the point that expecting someone wBPD not to act this way is like expecting someone with diabetes not to have blood sugar level issues.  Is saying "I have trouble being close if you then pull away" the functional equivalent of saying "I can't be close to you because you are you?"

To return the tough love a little bit to this community: I feel like the message that "he is who he is and he isn't going to change," and "you need to speak your truth and speak up for yourself" are in some tension.  Sure, I could just conclude that he cannot respond to my needs, and that the way he is hurts me, and just skip the step where I give him a chance, and step away permanently.  But must I (assuming I don't want to go on as we are)?  Is there any point in trying to bring this particular dynamic (not raging or infidelity, but basic BPD withdrawal patterns) to the surface and asking him to address it?

[123Phoebe]

P&C,

To return the tough love a little bit to this community: I feel like the message that "he is who he is and he isn't going to change," and "you need to speak your truth and speak up for yourself" are in some tension.  Sure, I could just conclude that he cannot respond to my needs, and that the way he is hurts me, and just skip the step where I give him a chance, and step away permanently.  But must I (assuming I don't want to go on as we are)?  Is there any point in trying to bring this particular dynamic (not raging or infidelity, but basic BPD withdrawal patterns) to the surface and asking him to address it?

How many times have you already tried to get him to address his withdrawal patterns?  :)o you notice any patterns with yourself?

Are you asking him for permission to let you get on with your life?

We ultimately have to do what we feel is best for us, all on our own.

Phoebe advised, if I read it correctly, "be yourself, truly yourself, stop being afraid, and just be in the relationship without trying to talk everything through, and see where it goes."  

I'm not the best writer of getting my thoughts and feelings into words... . For me, it's not a matter of "seeing where it goes", because I KNOW where I am, and where I want to be.  I'm not leaving it up to him to lead me anywhere.  Right now, we're walking the path together.  I address things as they come up, as there's always forward motion.  I refuse to go backwards.

Sure, he'll get overwhelmed and withdraw, hang back, but I'm still walking forward.  He then has to run to catch up with me if he wants to continue down the path together.  I will not turn around to meet him back there.

So, the only advice I can give is to be yourself, with no expectations attached to him changing for you.


 

[patientandclear]

How many times have you already tried to get him to address his withdrawal patterns?  :)o you notice any patterns with yourself?

I've never asked him to address his withdrawal patterns.  Maybe that isn't clear to folks.  I've come here and agonized about them, but as far as he's concerned, he hasn't heard a word about it bothering me.  

In the past the only thing I've asked is that he not completely disappear (as he did this spring, for 10 weeks in which he didn't reply to my email and imposed 10 weeks of complete silence).  As we were discussing that, he offered that he wanted to make me feel safe, and I explained that not completely disappearing would help.  He has not completely disappeared since, and in fact, seems to have become more careful to response to emails promptly so I don't wonder.

That's exactly the pattern I am considering changing: that I have bent over backwards NOT asking him to address his withdrawal patterns.  I've told him explicitly when it came up last year that he can come & go as he pleases with me, that I'll be here when he gets back.  I understood that to be accepting that he is who he is, he does what he does, I am not asking him to change.

The idea of telling him that this causes problems for me and giving him a chance to change it is new.  I'm recognizing my past pattern of sitting passively and waiting for someone who is hurting me to stop doing that.

If I bring this up, it will be a big change in our rules of engagement.

That's different than this kind of withdrawal, where we are super close & then he pulls away to a level of superficial interaction.

Are you asking him for permission to let you get on with your life?

We ultimately have to do what we feel is best for us, all on our own.

No, I'm asking him if he can change a behavior that is hurting me, before I unilaterally and somewhat paternalistically/maternalistically decide that he has no capacity to do that.  If he can't respond to this, I'll have to decide if I want to go on in this pattern.

I'm not the best writer of getting my thoughts and feelings into words... . For me, it's not a matter of "seeing where it goes", because I KNOW where I am, and where I want to be.  I'm not leaving it up to him to lead me anywhere.  Right now, we're walking the path together.  I address things as they come up, as there's always forward motion.  I refuse to go backwards.

You are a great writer & you explain your views so well!  Really.  I probably re-stated poorly.  You can be a bit cryptic though, so can I ask you to clarify?  When you say "I address things as they come up," this is you saying you WILL say "ew, this feels weird," as you mentioned before, right?  That is, I think, all I am doing.  I'm just wondering whether there is something uniquely pointless about doing that when the "this" is a basic withdrawal pattern in the face of closeness.

Sure, he'll get overwhelmed and withdraw, hang back, but I'm still walking forward.  He then has to run to catch up with me if he wants to continue down the path together.  I will not turn around to meet him back there.

So, the only advice I can give is to be yourself, with no expectations attached to him changing for you.

So it sounds like you would NOT raise the basic issue of withdrawal after closeness to see if he can or will handle things differently in the future?  I feel like not raising it leaves him in a position of having to read my mind to understand what is wrong, if I simply "walk forward without him" (basically, not being close to him again because I believe he will behave like this again & am skipping the step of asking him).

By raising it, I don't have expectations of him changing.  I realize his response could be anything, and I just have to deal with that & reach whatever conclusions are appropriate for me as that becomes clear.


 [/quote]

[Seashells]

Hi All,

P&C glad to see you're back and okay.  Started to reply in the other thread and then it was closed.  It's been a hard subject, and it's my impression you've endured all thoughts with grace and poise in response.  It's tough to get through this stuff.

I can only go by my experiences, which obviously aren't exactly the same.  My intent wasn't to advise directly addressing him.  In my experience with my bf addressing emotional distance or other issues directly isn't or hasn't been effective unless he is seeking answers.  Responding on the "push" has never gotten me anywhere, only on the "pull" is he listening.   I hope that makes sense.

I've always let go on the push. It's excruciating to do so. Each time it "really" was the end to me and I'd try to grieve and move on.   It caused me great emotional pain in doing so repeatedly.  I felt I was half way healing and then ripping open scabs over and over. Each time he would return with regrets. Then I'd get anxiety knowing there was a  strong probability he was going to come back, but when? How long, what if he doesn't this time?  Ugggh.    (And I still go through it a bit when we have a serious blow up).  I grew increasingly resentful and kept trying to let it go only to be "re-triggered" myself repeatedly.

What I went through, including anxiety to the point of feeling I was going to have a stroke or heart attack, depression, being on my knees in tears next to my bed at night, forced me to this point.  Hours of tears.  It came down to my own health and well being. I was becoming broken.  I couldn't keep going.  I refused to keep walking the path with him. It was making me ill.

He kept returning (eventually on any terms I would allow to just stay in touch at all) Eventually it was less "down time" in between.  It became such a predictable pattern it was ridiculous.  During this time I started learning about BPD, it started making sense.  I tried to understand more, (tried on some level to think I could help fix it  )  Still insisted on trying to protect myself emotionally.

We've been friends, lovers, enemies (not quite complete enemies, but YKWIM).  I tried to lessen my own anxiety, pain and hurt during the "in betweens".  It's lonely during those in betweens (friends, lovers, whatever) and it's not what I wanted from a relationship.   I focused on myself and what I would and could accept and am still going through that journey. 

Those days where I still feel any bit of that anxiety from our interactions are the ones where I question throwing in the towel.  I'm not willing to stay unless I get better at this myself and the r/s stabilizes to where I'm happy (satisfied) more often than not. No more anxiety and bs.  I can (imperfectly) try to control my part and be responsible for it, I can't control his, and I'm not even going to try.  He has to do his own work, make his own decisions.

What I was trying to suggest is focusing your emotional energies on yourself, your own life. Figuring out what you want regardless of whether this relationship is part of your life or not. TRY TO FILL YOUR LIFE WITH EXPERIENCES AND ACTIONS THAT MAKE YOU FEEL HAPPY AND FULFILLED ANYWAY.     I'm just working to get there.   Focusing on today and letting it be where it stands in a practical sense. 

I think this is often the starting path of getting to the point where you're "willing to let the r/s go".  And having to do so before it gets better.  I don't think anyone can fake it (feeling uneasy with it isn't faking it), it needs to be authentic, but authentic doesn't = perfect.  I just hope not everyone has to come to the point of the same pain I did to get there.  I think sadly many of us do though. 

In really focusing on yourself, this natural expression of your own behavior may cause him to question you, as it seems a natural expression of us focusing on ourselves instead of them can cause a distance and "shift" they also perceive; and at that point if he does seek answers from you, then perhaps address it from more of a position of strength (your own strength).  This is a positive and recurring theme of advice given here on this board, (as we know).

I've learned we can remain open to someone and still respect our own needs without verbally trying to "convince" them they have to as well.  There are times for talk and there are times to just "be". 

For today (everything in my r/s is predicated on "today" we're doing better as far as communicating and the "down times" (fights, silences, etc) seem to be lessening and be of shorter duration.   However unless he gets into serious therapy I'm not sure I'll be willing to do the long haul in a committed r/s, I'm not drawing lines in the sand at the moment.  I'm not focused on that for TODAY  , too much else going on right now.

I relate to a lot of what Pheobe has said, especially with one foot in and one foot out (me).  I would have all feet out if he were not working it with me, even if it's through behaviors we don't directly speak of, he has learned some DBT lessons. 

I've actually told him I think we focus and talk too much on our own dynamics now instead of "living them".  So our conversations about our r/s are much less right now.  We'd previously spend hours repeating discussions on our dynamics over and over and over. It was wearing me out.  I want to live, not just talk about doing it.   

I'm working through this journey.

I've got a close friend who has helped me look at co-dependency as a subject of inquiry.  It's helped me.  I think many of us have these tendencies, and questioning those things and trying to heal those tendencies in my self (the ones I can recognize and relate to) has been helpful to me.  I have to keep at it, keep reminding myself.

So, because it's all I know in helping myself through this, I'm trying to encourage you to also focus on yourself.  All I can know for sure is I feel much better where I'm at now. I'm focusing on my health and well being. (I started on physical well being, first as I didnt know where else to start.)  It's not all perfection and roses and my life isn't perfect, nor is my r/s. 

I'm just at a much better place, and I'd love to see you be able to work your way to a more satisfied place also.  I'd love to see your focus shift on yourself and see if it in turn doesn't end up shifting this r/s too (one way or another, end or continue as romantic or something else). 

Maybe that's my CODA kicking in.     I can live with some of it. 

(have to try to shorten these posts  )

[Seashells]

Also wanted to say thanks for all the encouraging comments in the other thread.  They help me too, friends.

One of the things I'd like to do eventually is self publish (a new thought after focusing on ME  ) and so the comments on the writing were especially meaningful.   

I'm still trying to juggle 3 very time consuming major life things right now.  So, if I'm not around much, it's not do to lack of concern; just time constraints. 

Peace, love and healing to you all. 

[myself]

Here's another two cents in the murky BPD wishing well... .

We can't really speak our own truths until we accept who WE are. That includes looking within, seeing what's there, seeing what we can change, and changing it. Which you're well on the road to doing! Believe in your progress. Share it with him. Live it!

Not having expressed yourself fully with him, while understandable when your fears have been in play, has helped cause mixed signals and a lack of understanding or acknowledgement. I'm on the side of he probably won't change, given he's moved so far away and other behaviors, but this is YOUR life and you need to do what's best for YOU. What's best for YOU? Will you lose him? Do you even have him? Even if you're just his friend, don't you want to say something that could possibly help him? Has anyone else ever spoken with him about it? Or does he always run? More to the point: Have YOU been running? Why? To where? (I know you're already asking yourself this.)

It's sad so many of us feel we have to clip our own wings to fit into the same box our 'partners' are stuck in. It doesn't do any of us any good. I like how Phoebe says she just keeps walking, and if he keeps up, they're together. That sounds like freedom. Like really being loving with each other. We each have to decide this for ourselves.

The reason, as you've asked, for bringing this stuff into the open with him is to help yourself feel less stress about it, less uncertainty. To help the two of you have better communication, which could lead to a better relationship in whatever shape it takes. If he can't deal with it, he won't. Then you'll know For SURE. That will help you continue walking forward, on your own, without looking back wondering where he is. The FOG could lift for both of you. I don't know if you can even truthfully ask him where he's coming from without knowing where you yourself are going, you know?

Best to you! You're strong, you have a  , and you're worth believing in and being with, so make the best of it! If he can't help it, and winds up losing you, please don't lose yourself along the way. That would be the worst possible outcome of them all.

[patientandclear]

What I went through, including anxiety to the point of feeling I was going to have a stroke or heart attack, depression, being on my knees in tears next to my bed at night, forced me to this point.  Hours of tears.  It came down to my own health and well being. I was becoming broken.  I couldn't keep going.  I refused to keep walking the path with him. It was making me ill.

He kept returning (eventually on any terms I would allow to just stay in touch at all)

Seashells:

When you say you refused to keep walking the path with him -- did you explain that? Did you explain why?  What did you tell him?  This is the heart of my dilemma -- whether to trust in and care for him enough to actually tell him what is going on for me, rather than skipping that step and just unilaterally pulling away.

When you say he kept returning on any terms you would allow: did you make the terms explicit?  What were they, if I don't mind my asking?

I've learned we can remain open to someone and still respect our own needs without verbally trying to "convince" them they have to as well.  There are times for talk and there are times to just "be". 

I would have all feet out if he were not working it with me, even if it's through behaviors we don't directly speak of, he has learned some DBT lessons.

Here again, I see your emphasis on not talking things through directly.  Hmm.  I do understand the idea of not contesting the push, just accepting it, and engaging the issues if at all only during a pull period when they are inclined to pay attention & not just avoid.  But, how do you convey your terms or that you are not walking the path with them on their terms, without talking?

I've actually told him I think we focus and talk too much on our own dynamics now instead of "living them".  So our conversations about our r/s are much less right now.  We'd previously spend hours repeating discussions on our dynamics over and over and over. It was wearing me out.  I want to live, not just talk about doing it.   

[\quote]

I totally understand this, but I am in the opposite corner.  We NEVER talk about our r/s -- what happened to it, why, what we want, what goes wrong.  He is incredibly averse to doing that & when I push for it, I get punished with silent treatment -- he either ignores that particular part of the conversation, or he goes silent altogether.  So I think even less talking is not necessarily a healthy move for my own situation.

***

So I have a new thought, though.  I was reading the article on the victim/drama triangle during my kid's swim lesson just now, and it made me see this: some (not all) of the times he reaches out for me, he is reaching for me as a rescuer.  For sure.  Only I can solve this problem, only I have this unique insight he needs ... .and yes, it makes me feel good, despite that I don't think I've generally engaged in rescuing behavior with him due to some serious self-examination over the past 7 years since the end of my marriage.  In other words, I don't think I am looking to rescue him; but I do think he is looking to me to rescue him sometimes.  Especially in this recent intense episode.  If I were guessing, it would be that a new r/s had faltered, he was feeling panicky & doomed, used me to reestablish that he is OK and loved and there is connection out there, came to resent that I was all the way in his stuff (despite that he was the one who asked me in -- asked me for advice on his work, confided his doubts about his attachment issues), and pushed me out, hard, because of the resentment.  Wouldn't be surprised if it was in favor of a new rescuer.

If so ... .what would I be doing, asking him to maintain closeness when we are close?  That's a kind of "closeness" that is not very healthy or functional.  Neither the pull or the push is healthy, I guess is my point there.

There have been lots of times in the past year when we were in neither pull nor push, but a steady, interesting, healthy-feeling closeness.  That is different than the big flurry two weeks ago, when he pulled me in intensely, then hurt me by suddenly acting like I was irrelevant to the big questions he'd been asking about.

Maybe by raising the issue of his sudden withdrawal, I'm conveying that the intense pull is something I want him to maintain with me, when actually, that's not a healthy place either.

[Seashells]

Seashells:

When you say you refused to keep walking the path with him -- did you explain that? Did you explain why?  What did you tell him?  This is the heart of my dilemma -- whether to trust in and care for him enough to actually tell him what is going on for me, rather than skipping that step and just unilaterally pulling away.

There were many times I told him the emotional distancing hurt me. I told him many times we were going in circles.  It kept repeating.  I didn't tell him specifically the last time (no need to do so).  He knew how I felt about him. He knew the deal, he knew what was going on.  One of the first lessons I learned from reading here, was people with BPD hear and understand just fine.  So, that isn't really the problem. 

When you say he kept returning on any terms you would allow: did you make the terms explicit?  What were they, if I don't mind my asking?

I didn't give him ultimatums (except about other women).  I told him I needed our interactions to be healthy and comfortable.  We agreed to certain things (they didn't last). The words are not what matters, it's the actions.  And they don't have to be all or nothing.  You can decide what you want them to be and act accordingly, of course it doesn't mean he will participate though.

I kept trying to act and expect the same things I would from a non-disordered person, and I wasn't dealing with one.   

Here again, I see your emphasis on not talking things through directly.  Hmm.  I do understand the idea of not contesting the push, just accepting it, and engaging the issues if at all only during a pull period when they are inclined to pay attention & not just avoid.  But, how do you convey your terms or that you are not walking the path with them on their terms, without talking?



By walking my own path and getting on with my life.  We did however talk when he was doing the "pulling".  He pretty much had to address it at that point or I wasn't too interested in having much of a conversation.  It was self preservation.

I totally understand this, but I am in the opposite corner.  We NEVER talk about our r/s -- what happened to it, why, what we want, what goes wrong.  He is incredibly averse to doing that & when I push for it, I get punished with silent treatment -- he either ignores that particular part of the conversation, or he goes silent altogether.  So I think even less talking is not necessarily a healthy move for my own situation.

If he does the pulling, and he's willing, then it's a good time to talk.  If he refuses to talk or refuses try to make it better, there isn't much you can do. He has to be motivated to do it.  The above statement honestly causes me to wonder if he has some other PD.

In the early stages when my bf was distancing me, he was keeping his options open with his ex.  I could sense it when he'd go backwards, & then I'd anticipate it.  It caused a lot of anxiety.  He was using me as a rescuer or comfort zone, at will.  Like a doormat.  Put on a shelf. Taken down as needed.   For me it had to stop working that way regardless of the consequences.  I got to the point where it hurt so much I didn't care if he came back or not.

If it's going to work out, I don't think one conversation, or not having a conversation could make or break the entire thing if it's healthy.  Friends talk about what concerns both of them.  P& C think about what we call it when we are so afraid of doing the wrong thing for fear of their reaction?   

Sometimes we see things in "black and white" as well.  Is it possible that's how you're viewing this? 

From what you've posted before he knows how you feel about him right?  You've told him you love him.  Mentioned your feelings "are what they are".  That's all he needs to know in reality. I think it's fair to say from what you've posted, he probably already knows if he was willing to take the steps, you'd be open to having another go at it.   

I think they need to miss us and then it allows them to reflect on their own behavior (if they are going to do it at all). 

Hopefully you can figure what you think is best and decide how to handle it to give you some relief. 

[Grey Kitty]

To return the tough love a little bit to this community: I feel like the message that "he is who he is and he isn't going to change," and "you need to speak your truth and speak up for yourself" are in some tension.  Sure, I could just conclude that he cannot respond to my needs, and that the way he is hurts me, and just skip the step where I give him a chance, and step away permanently.  But must I (assuming I don't want to go on as we are)?  Is there any point in trying to bring this particular dynamic (not raging or infidelity, but basic BPD withdrawal patterns) to the surface and asking him to address it?

BPD or not, I personally wouldn't feel good about ending things over an issue I hadn't even tried to raise with my partner. I don't think you like it either.

Letting him do something which hurts you, and saying nothing about it to him is a good recipe for resentment on your part.

And if you let it go on too long, the resentment builds to anger and frustration... .which I've heard in these forums. 

How many times have you already tried to get him to address his withdrawal patterns?  :)o you notice any patterns with yourself?

I've never asked him to address his withdrawal patterns.  Maybe that isn't clear to folks.  I've come here and agonized about them, but as far as he's concerned, he hasn't heard a word about it bothering me.  

In the past the only thing I've asked is that he not completely disappear (as he did this spring, for 10 weeks in which he didn't reply to my email and imposed 10 weeks of complete silence).  As we were discussing that, he offered that he wanted to make me feel safe, and I explained that not completely disappearing would help.  He has not completely disappeared since, and in fact, seems to have become more careful to response to emails promptly so I don't wonder.

Interesting--you asked him directly for something small in that area... .and got it. That is a good sign.

Is this something you can build on? Here are a couple possibilities:

1. Let him know that his withdrawal hurts you next time you are feeling it.

2. Ask him to be more direct and clear if he has to back away, telling you on the phone or email "I'm freaking out right now; it isn't about you, but I will need a few days of space" ... .or whatever in his own words, instead of just going away?

3. Your ideas?

[123Phoebe]

How many times have you already tried to get him to address his withdrawal patterns?  Do you notice any patterns with yourself?

I've never asked him to address his withdrawal patterns.  Maybe that isn't clear to folks.  I've come here and agonized about them, but as far as he's concerned, he hasn't heard a word about it bothering me.  

What we agonize over becomes transparent in our interactions/behaviors, without saying a word.  I would imagine, he feels your fears loud and clear.

You can be a bit cryptic though, so can I ask you to clarify?  When you say "I address things as they come up," this is you saying you WILL say "ew, this feels weird," as you mentioned before, right?  That is, I think, all I am doing.  I'm just wondering whether there is something uniquely pointless about doing that when the "this" is a basic withdrawal pattern in the face of closeness.

Basic withdrawal patterns, I carry on with my own life; that's how I address it.  And I have to add that we have never gone for more than 3 days without some sort of communication.  That's not to say I haven't agonized over some of those communications or lack thereof... .  Talk about cryptic! (him)  But trying to get answers from him during those times is like 'pulling teeth' and I get bit.  He doesn't even know how to address them, so I carry on while he figures it out.  What goes on inside his head is none of my business, unless he wants to make it my business.  Then I have the option of exploring it with him or not.  I stay far far away from playing therapist with him.  What goes on inside mine is every bit my business!  And I work through my own thoughts and feelings before addressing big things with him, so that I can approach them with strength and clarity, no blame and shame.  We seem to be on the same page in that department, with respect to each other.

The little aggravations, I try to deal with in the moment.  Not always successfully, but that doesn't mean complete failure either.  It is what it is, basic lack in communication.

Sure, he'll get overwhelmed and withdraw, hang back, but I'm still walking forward.  He then has to run to catch up with me if he wants to continue down the path together.  I will not turn around to meet him back there.

So, the only advice I can give is to be yourself, with no expectations attached to him changing for you.

So it sounds like you would NOT raise the basic issue of withdrawal after closeness to see if he can or will handle things differently in the future?  I feel like not raising it leaves him in a position of having to read my mind to understand what is wrong, if I simply "walk forward without him" (basically, not being close to him again because I believe he will behave like this again & am skipping the step of asking him).

By raising it, I don't have expectations of him changing.  I realize his response could be anything, and I just have to deal with that & reach whatever conclusions are appropriate for me as that becomes clear.

P&C, I can almost guarantee that your guy knows what is going on as far as your feelings for him go; no mind reading necessary.  From what you have posted he's given you EVERY opportunity to explain your position.  It has been your choice to tiptoe around it, claiming to only want friendship, too.

Which brings me back to this:

I've never asked him to address his withdrawal patterns.  Maybe that isn't clear to folks.  I've come here and agonized about them, but as far as he's concerned, he hasn't heard a word about it bothering me. 

In the past the only thing I've asked is that he not completely disappear (as he did this spring, for 10 weeks in which he didn't reply to my email and imposed 10 weeks of complete silence).  As we were discussing that, he offered that he wanted to make me feel safe, and I explained that not completely disappearing would help.  He has not completely disappeared since, and in fact, seems to have become more careful to response to emails promptly so I don't wonder.

That's exactly the pattern I am considering changing: that I have bent over backwards NOT asking him to address his withdrawal patterns.  I've told him explicitly when it came up last year that he can come & go as he pleases with me, that I'll be here when he gets back.   I understood that to be accepting that he is who he is, he does what he does, I am not asking him to change.

If you have decided that friendship via the way you have been offering it to him is too painful, it is up to you whether or not to say something and BPD be damned!

Shift it girl!

[LetItBe]

No, I'm asking him if he can change a behavior that is hurting me, before I unilaterally and somewhat paternalistically/maternalistically decide that he has no capacity to do that.  If he can't respond to this, I'll have to decide if I want to go on in this pattern.

By raising it, I don't have expectations of him changing.  I realize his response could be anything, and I just have to deal with that & reach whatever conclusions are appropriate for me as that becomes clear.

As you know, I went through a very similar process.  I had to be prepared to lose him (although as myself alluded, did we ever really "have" them?), or I was going to lose myself.  I can say that my life is much more peaceful since I made it clear to my uBPDxbf what my needs were, can clearly see he can't meet them, have gotten myself out of the FOG, and have let go of any unrealistic expectations of him.  I am glad I gave him the chance to truly "see" me and the opportunity to meet my needs -- or not.  There is no intimacy (in any kind of r/s) without honest communication, and I didn't feel losing my voice with him would be healthy, in integrity with our r/s, or true to my higher self.

You sound very grounded.  It's true that we can't predict with 100% certainty anyone's response to our requests, especially someone with a history of abrupt behavior.  At least we have the capacity to ground ourselves while they do what they do.

I'm glad you're going to speak your truth!  

[patientandclear]

Hi guys.  You are all so great -- thanks for hanging in there with me.

Sorry I messed up the quote function on you, SeaShells!

Phoebe: I think I have been completely open and honest with him about my feelings.  Completely.  My feelings are complicated.  I do not want to just resume a romantic r/s with him.  My original position is still my position: yes, I would, IF he had some insight about why he pushed me away, why he still pushes me away, and why he pushes away anyone who gets too close.  I've told him exactly that, several times.  That is my complete truth.

My hurt around this is that we nonetheless get so close that it hurts me that he does not take those steps.  :)oes that make sense?  It feels like rejection that he won't do what would be necessary for us to move across that line.  It is not a question of me wanting him to say he wants to get back together.  He said that two years ago.  I was the one who said something else needed to happen as well -- there were steps he needed to take.  He has referred to that as my "hubris."

My main issue right now is not really the question of "is it a friendship or is it more."  I don't really care what it's called, except when he used the label as a weapon against my requests for accountability, which he has at least once.  That sucks.  The truth is, it is a quasi-partnership, with all the same push-pull and trust issues that exist in most BPD relationships.  I believe the fact that he calls it a friendship and there are no rules that preclude him from pulling away, allow him to invest the r/s with more reality-based intimacy than he otherwise could.  He can come really close to me, freak out, pull away, and he now has a reasonable expectation that I will still be around when he can get his feet under him again.  If we were in an acknowledged love r/s, he knows that would be very problematic, and the chances that I would view it as violating his obligation to me and leave, are very high.

My main issue is that whatever you call our r/s, he gets super close to me and then bails.  And it hurts.

But.  I think I have come to a slightly different place than I was exploring in the prior thread.

I am going to use actions more than words to try to get some control of this situation.  I am not in fact going to be as available to him as I have been.  I take Seashells's point that the time to try talking about this stuff is during a pull phase, not now, when he is primarily (I suspect) focused on someone else, somewhere else.  When he wants full access to me, I think that is a better moment to establish new ground rules for that.

I do agree with what Phoebe has observed in the past, that this r/s is "in process."  I do believe that because of the protective framework of "friendship," he has been able to sustain and grow our connection in a way that he has not done before.  Whether there is any possibility of that meaning that he will do the work I'd need him to do in order for us to have a "real" romantic r/s, I don't know.  I don't feel any huge rush to get a definitive answer, so long as I can protect myself from the hurt that his intense closeness and sudden leaving continues to inflict on me.  I experience it as a re-abandonment each time, probably because it's a repeat of a traumatic experience (which is why I can't just serenely accept it, I have to resist it), & that does a lot of damage to me.

One comment about a theme that emerged on the last thread and a little bit here, about declaring what I want ("I love you and I want us to be together", in addition to what I said above about how what I want is a lot more complicated than that:

This man has real damage from trauma.  He had adults who were supposed to care for him, hurt him, and let him down.  And he had one adult who, in the guise of friendship, betrayed him and hurt him in horrible ways.

I think it is super important that I not be fuzzy about boundaries.  That I not constantly be asking him to move his boundaries, in order to meet my needs.  He has made a boundary that, among other things, means there is no expectation of sexual contact.  I think that is super important to him to feel safe.  He's been clear on this, at least with his words.  I heard him.  I feel like demonstrating that I do NOT have a "hidden agenda" is super important.  And, I don't.  I want to have real r/s with him IF AND WHEN he can do that in a way that is healthy for us both.  That is not yet.  Clearly.  And so it seems really problematic to me for me to be suggesting that I cannot stay where we are, if he needs to do that.

Again, my issue is not with that.  I've acknowledged to y'all that I still have romantic feelings for him so you can understand the struggles I go through around this.  But I am not in a hurry to press forward with that "agenda."

My issue is that he busts those boundaries emotionally, and it gives me false hope that we are in a place we are  not, and then he leaves, and it re-injures me all over again.  It is the truth of our periodic emotional closeness that is causing my confusion.  :)oes that make sense?

So having a big soul-baring discussion about hypothetical future desires doesn't seem helpful -- it seems like it will just end up with him thinking I'm saying I can't be where we are now -- and I can.  What I can't do is be where we are now with him leaving me all the time after pulling me incredibly close.

And given the nature of BPD, THAT might mean that I cannot be where we are now.  But it isn't because it isn't a full sexual/romantic r/s.  It's because he leaves where we are now, and that hurts a lot.

[patientandclear]

One more thing: for all of you who have slogged through all of this with me for a long time, and who are obviously worried I am in great pain & about to lose my marbles over this ... .

I feel a little bit better, having decided the above.  It's a plan with integrity to my values, that I believe in and that makes sense to me.  I can do it.  And I am going to.

So if you were worrying, you can worry a tiny bit less about my mental state, though I think any worries to this point were well-founded

[123Phoebe]

What I can't do is be where we are now with him leaving me all the time after pulling me incredibly close.

Keep in mind that he hasn't pulled you anywhere.  You've chosen to be exactly where you are.

[patientandclear]

Well, yes, in the sense that I could say no.

But what I mean by he pulls me close, is that I more or less have maintained a steady baseline friend-like level of engagement with him.  He, however, periodically reaches out for me in a different way, with a different level of intensity.  Does that make sense?  When he does that, it is a change he is making.  And I keep investing it with meaning and getting hurt when it doesn't mean that (that we are on the cusp of some big breakthrough that would allow us to have a different kind of r/s).

I'm saying it's his swings that I find painful, and I will need to not go with him on the next upswing, unless a conversation about the dynamic puts us on different footing.  I am going to have that conversation for the reason Grey Kitty & Myself commented on -- I'd feel bad to shut things down permanently without explaining why & without giving it a shot.

[123Phoebe]

(that we are on the cusp of some big breakthrough that would allow us to have a different kind of r/s)

What does a different kind of relationship look like to you?  What would it take to sustain it or move it forward?

I am all for speaking our truth, as long as we know what it is and aren't placing blame on anyone else for not taking us there.

[patientandclear]

(that we are on the cusp of some big breakthrough that would allow us to have a different kind of r/s)

What does a different kind of relationship look like to you?  What would it take to sustain it or move it forward?

I am all for speaking our truth, as long as we know what it is and aren't placing blame on anyone else for not taking us there.

What I mean by "a different kind of r/s" is one in which we consider each other to be one another's partners, with whatever goes along with that, which I assume would be a physical r/s (though I think for him that's quite complicated).

But I'm content to let that work itself out over time.

The truth I think I need to speak has to do with his continued access to me at a deep level emotionally, on our current terms as "friends."  He wants that, periodically.  I am planning on not returning there without discussing that the extreme withdrawals are not working for me.  :)istance, space, sure.  Not communicating for a few days, I can do that.  But the more extreme sine curve, where we go from super close to superficial acquaintances -- no, can't do that.

[123Phoebe]

But the more extreme sine curve, where we go from super close to superficial acquaintances -- no, can't do that.

Understood.  I'm glad you feel better about everything

[patientandclear]

I just feel ever so slightly more solid & less crappy & anxious about what to do going forward.  I am definitely still dealing with the traumatic loss aspects of the initial end of the r/s and what I experienced as his betrayals of me during and after the breakup.  One thing I see ever more clearly is that I have to stop trying to resolve those traumatic impacts in the current relationship.  It cannot do that.  I have to process those myself, separately.

The ongoing r/s needs to be understood on its own terms and not as vehicle for fixing the harm I experienced two years ago.

I've mentioned this on the earlier thread, but I'm using two different trauma recovery therapies with two different therapists, both of which seem really promising after two sessions each:

Lifespan Integration therapy & Sensorimotor Psychotherapy.  If anyone is looking for help healing the wounds these relationships often inflict, or re-open, I really, really am impressed so far.