not sure what winning means anymore

[livednlearned]

Divorced from N/BPDx who is a former trial lawyer. He is representing himself. I have sole custody of S12.

Today we were back in court, same judge. I filed a motion for contempt to get N/BPDx to refinance the house (14 months overdue) and to get the title to my car.

Which I got!    Yippee!

Judge gave N/BPDx until January 2014 to refinance the house. <sigh>  But he did find N/BPDx in contempt, and said N/BPDx must pay my legal fees. He still owes me legal fees from our last go-round in court. He has a week to pay those fees. If he doesn't, I file another motion for contempt, and we go back to court.

My L says next time, if N/BPDx doesn't comply, it's jail.

L said to me, "You are so calm." I don't know if it's calm, or numb.

I can't believe I ever loved N/BPDx. I can't believe I used to be who I was. Wish we all got to move on after we learned whatever lesson this is.

[HarmKrakow]

Nobody wins in situations like this.

I assume a normal human being, a sane person, would not enjoy victory over another person, no matter how deep the hatred is. A sane person would not keep grudges and move on. On the other hand, if you have to make a decision, it's always better to end up with the win rather than the loss. But it's all materialistic victories.

What do we truly gain from a materialistic victory, although the victory itself can hold some mental strength? Marriage and rights and all those others things are stuff we invented as humans and we are supposed to attach certain feelings with that? Gimme a break :P

Well done on the win of course

[Forward2free]

  None of this is easy and you're doing a great job staying on task. Congratulations on your win!

You've come so far emotionally - that's why you can see the relationship for what it was and N/BPDxh for who he is. If you saw him like that all those years ago, you wouldn't be here now. That's a massive step forward xxx

Not being in his space/control any more is the biggest win and the best gift to yourself - everything else is just cream on top.

Here's hoping he comes through with the refinancing and the money he owes you... .

[livednlearned]

Last night I get an email from N/BPDx.

He wants to take S12 to a women's shelter and bring them food.

He wants to go with S12 for an hour. Pick him up tonight at 5pm, drop him off at home at 6pm. Stop and get a cookie.

Guys, this is one crazy disorder.

[momtara]

So what are you going to do?

That's a shame because on its face it seems like a noble thing to do, which is how he uses it to make you feel bad, I guess.  Sounds like something my hubby would do.

Do you think he'd really do it?

Anyway... .

Since he has to make good by January, why don't you schedule a little celebration for yourself for after that - maybe an overnight at a hotel or a little trip in February?  Nobody wins, but you can celebrate that you're moving forward.

[livednlearned]

So what are you going to do?

That's a shame because on its face it seems like a noble thing to do, which is how he uses it to make you feel bad, I guess.  Sounds like something my hubby would do.

Do you think he'd really do it?

It's so weird. N/BPDx's psych eval explicitly calls him a misogynist, and points out how N/BPDx appears to have no awareness of the emotional lives of his mother, sister, or three ex wives. I came within an inch of filing a restraining order against him, only reason I didn't was because I was too scared. I've spent hours at the DV shelter getting counseling about how to stay safe. He scores a 9 out of 10 on Gavin de Becker's MOSAIC threat assessment test to predict if someone is dangerous.

And yet N/BPDx wants to take food to a women's shelter.



S12 says he wants to go. N/BPDx's email was brief, no insults or threats, just a request. Maybe I'm just a big sucker, but I told S12 he could go.

Anyway... .

Since he has to make good by January, why don't you schedule a little celebration for yourself for after that - maybe an overnight at a hotel or a little trip in February?  Nobody wins, but you can celebrate that you're moving forward.

I'm celebrating in two weeks    Taking the first vacation I've had in over 10 years, at least one that isn't organized around a family obligation or work trip. It's a real vacation! I can't wait.

[ForeverDad]

The timing is suspicious... .  He just looked bad in court - obstructing financial closure for his exwife so now he wants to do something to help other women?  Are they victims or just financially disadvantaged?  So he'll willingly go out of his way to 'help' them but not you... .

Why would they let him in the door?  Is he shopping for W#5?

Seems to me that he wanted to bring S12 to lend innocuous legitimacy to his visit.  If he has time with S12 periodically, then you could have told him he can do it on his time.  Trojan Horse sort of tactic?

[livednlearned]

The timing is suspicious... . He just looked bad in court - obstructing financial closure for his exwife so now he wants to do something to help other women?  Are they victims or just financially disadvantaged?

Why would they let him in the door?  Is he shopping for W#5?

Seems to me that he wanted to bring S12 to lend legitimacy to his action.

I think somewhere in his disordered head, he thinks if he does something good for battered women, it erases all his nastiness. That, and he needs S12 to be his audience for narcissistic supply. Last month N/BPDx went and demonstrated with pro-choice advocates at our state capital and asked to take S12 but I said no.

I dunno.

It's anti-bullying week at S12's school, and a few nights ago he described different kinds of bullies that the teachers didn't talk about, and it made me realize he understands more about abuse at age 12 then I did at age 40.  S12 was describing generic bullying behavior, and I don't think he realized he was describing his dad, but he was. For example, S12 said there are bullies who will be mean to you, and then nice to you, and then mean to you. They try to confuse you about whether they are your friend or not. And then he said there is another kind of bully, who is nice to you when he wants something from you, or when no one is looking, and then when he's alone with you, he's a bully. I really think he understands who his dad is, but he's too young to really assert himself against his dad and I can't say I blame him.  

[whirlpoollife]

You "won" on the title to your car. You fought for what is yours to begin with.

14 months to refinance the house but then he is given more time.

Yeah I see why you question the feel of "win"

My xtbh was and is very big on the audience thing.  All show ,not a drop of empathy except for himself.  Only those who live with this type understand what it is they are doing. 

I was advised to have a PFA on him (from the crisis shelter, not my current L,   because not to get off your topic but I have been receiving texts from an unknown number but the wording fits his) but how do I prove what he has done or is doing?

Your vacation time is well deserved!

[livednlearned]

I have been receiving texts from an unknown number but the wording fits his) but how do I prove what he has done or is doing?

Ugh. That's awful. Maybe a forensic IT investigator? I hired one to look at S12's phone when I suspected that N/BPDx had installed surveillance software on it. I guess if the number is a pre-paid phone, it would take a lot of tracking to figure out who owns the phone. Still! Anything that involves digital data has to be traceable.

Is he threatening you?

[Free One]

It's anti-bullying week at S12's school, and a few nights ago he described different kinds of bullies that the teachers didn't talk about, and it made me realize he understands more about abuse at age 12 then I did at age 40.  S12 was describing generic bullying behavior, and I don't think he realized he was describing his dad, but he was. For example, S12 said there are bullies who will be mean to you, and then nice to you, and then mean to you. They try to confuse you about whether they are your friend or not. And then he said there is another kind of bully, who is nice to you when he wants something from you, or when no one is looking, and then when he's alone with you, he's a bully. I really think he understands who his dad is, but he's too young to really assert himself against his dad and I can't say I blame him.  

This is what winning is. This is what you are fighting for.

[scraps66]

I hate these stories and the way the court just goes along.  I played the same games to get the deed to my house, AFTER my ex had purchased her own house during the equitable distribution process where, thought she produced NO financial records for a period of 15 months, managed to come up with cash for a home purchase.  all the while she would not sign the deed over to me so I could refinance.  BTW - I was paying the mortgage all that time while she lived in the marital residence... .with her boyfriend!  They say the system stinks.  They're right.   

[livednlearned]

I hate these stories and the way the court just goes along.  I played the same games to get the deed to my house, AFTER my ex had purchased her own house during the equitable distribution process where, thought she produced NO financial records for a period of 15 months, managed to come up with cash for a home purchase.  all the while she would not sign the deed over to me so I could refinance.  BTW - I was paying the mortgage all that time while she lived in the marital residence... .with her boyfriend!  They say the system stinks.  They're right.  

The weirdest part of my hearing is that N/BPDx had filed a motion for contempt against me. I filed a motion for contempt to get N/BPDx to refi his house and hand over the car title. N/BPDx had filed a motion for contempt saying I had thwarted the refi.  

Because I thwarted him, he told the judge I caused him to forfeit fees, and rates have now gone up, so his new mortgage will be $400 more because of me, and he wanted to offset that increase against the alimony he pays me.

I almost don't even know how to explain the stuff with the car title because it's so paranoid and convoluted, it's hard to even describe. Way back in 2011, I signed over the title to his car during mediation. Also part of the order, N/BPDx agreed to finish paying the car loan for my car as part of alimony. Which he did. A year later, I realized that I didn't receive any registration notices for my car, so I contact DMV and change the address, renew my tags, and that's that. A year after that, I ask N/BPDx to send me the title to my car, since the loan was paid off. This seems to alert him that he has not received notice to renew his tags, so he checks DMV and sees that notification to renew his tags are being sent to my address. Anyone who knows anything about car registration knows you have to change ownership by transferring the title with DMV. Getting the title is just one step. Next step is to have the title transferred over in your name. N/BPDx didn't do that.

In court, he tells the judge that I tried to "claim ownership" of his car by changing the address for the car with DMV, so he refuses to give me the title to my car.    

He told the judge I was underhanded and devious, and that the court has been deceived by my distortions and lies for 3 years, and it was time the truth came out. He kept saying, "I realize this sounds paranoid your honor, but LnL will go to any lengths to distort my character and set up these scenarios to make me look bad in court."

Judge just let N/BPDx go on and on about all this stuff. He also allowed N/BPDx to have his motion for contempt heard, even though it hadn't been noticed properly -- my L didn't receive the correct documentation until we arrived in court, instead of receiving it 2 weeks early, which is the protocol.

Then, when the judge ruled, he practically cooed all over N/BPDx, telling him stories about how frustrating the lenders were, and he understood how exasperating it was. Judge had done real estate law for 25 years and went on a tirade about Fannie Mae and Fannie Mac.

Then, when he ruled, he said, "N/BPDx, I really feel for you, I really do. But I have to find you in contempt because you are 14 months overdue with this, and even though it took 6 months to get to the closing, you still had a year to do it. Have the new offer close by Jan 2014."

Then he turned to me and explained very clearly how to make sure the car title was transferred over through DMV. I think he was trying to help save face for N/BPDx by telling me how it worked, instead of telling N/BPDx directly: Dude, title has to be transferred through DMV. LnL was not trying to claim ownership -- you had the title, you didn't finish the job with DMV.

All this to say: I asked my L why the judge listened to N/BPDx's long, bizarre conspiracy-theory-plot-twist crazy explanations about why he was filing a motion for contempt about me thwarting the mortgage refi. And why he was so gentle with the N/BPDx during the ruling.

L said that a few weeks ago a guy got an unfavorable ruling in court and then went downtown to a busy area and pulled out his gun and starting firing. Police arrived, could not disarm him, and ended up shooting and killing him. So the judges are being careful to make sure that everyone gets a chance to feel "heard" in court.

Whatevs. I don't know what I feel about that. I understand it, but I could also see that N/BPDx felt entitled, not defeated. Judge told us he didn't want to see us back in court, and N/BPDx turned to my L on the way out and said, See you back in court for the motion to stay. N/BPDx is planning on not paying my legal fees for the last hearing.   So the judge let N/BPDx feel heard, and it made N/BPDx feel empowered, even though he lost.

Also, last night N/BPDx didn't show to take S12 to the women's shelter. I didn't receive any emails or text messages. S12 didn't seem to care if his dad came or not, so just went back to doing what he was doing.

[Forward2free]

It's just not fair, I hope you are okay.

I agree that he would feel empowered after the softly-softly approach   But he would also feel deeply entitled anyway.

Make sure you have what you need if/when he takes you back to court. Unfortunately the legal system is a massive playground for a  Narcissistic Lawyer. Seeing you getting stronger gives him more justification to punish you and he'll keep battling in court as long as he can to regain power and control.

In their minds, we are worthless and deserve nothing, not even the crumbs.

Be prepared that he may being trying to alienate you from S12. Perhaps his overt attempts to take food to shelters etc are to impress on your son that he wouldn't do xyz because ... .

I am sorry that S12 was stood up last night. It is the hardest thing to explain to kids and I guess he will soon be of an age that he can stop seeing his dad all together? So hard for the kids.

I hope he finds potential wife number 4, that should help feed his need for narcissistic supply and hopefully take the pressure off you and D12.

[livednlearned]

It's just not fair, I hope you are okay.

I agree that he would feel empowered after the softly-softly approach   But he would also feel deeply entitled anyway.

Make sure you have what you need if/when he takes you back to court. Unfortunately the legal system is a massive playground for a  Narcissistic Lawyer. Seeing you getting stronger gives him more justification to punish you and he'll keep battling in court as long as he can to regain power and control.

In their minds, we are worthless and deserve nothing, not even the crumbs.

Be prepared that he may being trying to alienate you from S12. Perhaps his overt attempts to take food to shelters etc are to impress on your son that he wouldn't do xyz because ... .

I am sorry that S12 was stood up last night. It is the hardest thing to explain to kids and I guess he will soon be of an age that he can stop seeing his dad all together? So hard for the kids.

I hope he finds potential wife number 4, that should help feed his need for narcissistic supply and hopefully take the pressure off you and D12.

Thanks kormilda.

Apparently, N/BPDx is now filing a complaint against my L with the State Bar. For lying in court, telling the judge she had sent N/BPDx an affadavit from my real estate attorney    Not only did she send the affadavits by mail, she sent two email copies. His threats aren't even intelligent!

He has also filed a complaint against the parenting coordinator's professional organization because she "practiced law" by interpreting the order (incorrectly, according to him). He keeps losing in court, to the point the judge is making him pay my legal fees. So I guess he has to feel like he's "winning" some other way.

I received a bunch of emails this weekend from him, saying I have no soul, am heartless, blah blah blah.

Gah.

[ForeverDad]

He's burning his bridges, not that he had any left, but if he did, they're gone now.

My ex tried to get me featured in an Amber Alert back when I took son with me on vacation during our temp order.  I had given advance notice but of course my then-stbEx had said No, as though her permission was needed.   (To this day I assume it was okay to go on vacation even though it was a simple temporary order.  After all, it turned out to last nearly two years.  It recognized holidays, so why not vacations?  My lawyer said to go anyway, he'd handle any flak.  And predictably there was flak.)  The deputy had told her it didn't meet the criteria for Amber Alert.  She escalated it and the sheriff's investigator agreed there was no action to be taken but did get get my lawyer to agree to call me and ask Me to call then-StbEx and let him speak with her.  Why she wouldn't call herself, well, that's what I had to deal with, she had to involve as many professionals as she could.  Well, she got upset with the investigator, stopped responding, so the investigator closed the case.  Months later my lawyer told me that my then-StbEx had escalated filed a complaint against the investigator.  Yes, she sure burned that bridge but good.

[livednlearned]

He's burning his bridges, not that he had any left, but if he did, they're gone now.

My ex tried to get me featured in an Amber Alert back when I took son with me on vacation during our temp order.  I had given advance notice but of course my then-stbEx had said No, as though her permission was needed.   (To this day I assume it was okay to go on vacation even though it was a simple temporary order.  After all, it turned out to last nearly two years.  It recognized holidays, so why not vacations?  My lawyer said to go anyway, he'd handle any flak.  And predictably there was flak.)  The deputy had told her it didn't meet the criteria for Amber Alert.  She escalated it and the sheriff's investigator agreed there was no action to be taken but did get get my lawyer to agree to call me and ask Me to call then-StbEx and let him speak with her.  Why she wouldn't call herself, well, that's what I had to deal with, she had to involve as many professionals as she could.  Well, she got upset with the investigator, stopped responding, so the investigator closed the case.  Months later my lawyer told me that my then-StbEx had escalated filed a complaint against the investigator.  Yes, she sure burned that bridge but good.

I guess the moral of the story is don't tell her anything    Vacation? What vacation?

I'm also beginning to realize that anyone who touches my case eventually suffers. My L just hired a new associate, and he emailed the Motion for Contempt to N/BPDx for review. Sorry new L! You just entered hell.

[Forward2free]

I'm also beginning to realize that anyone who touches my case eventually suffers. My L just hired a new associate, and he emailed the Motion for Contempt to N/BPDx for review. Sorry new L! You just entered hell.

That's ok, you don't have to worry about your L or L's associates. It's their job to deal with the scum of society and at least they are getting paid to put up with his nonsense. It sucks, but you can't protect them either.

Imagine how much you would have in the bank if you only received $1 per hour for dealing with N/BPDx BS... .

[livednlearned]

So... .

I was given the title to my car, right? That's one of the "wins" from being in court. N/BPDx gave my L the title to my car in front of the judge. He signed it. My L went to her office to have it notarized, then sent it to me.

I went to the DMV to have the title transferred. They valued the car and added it all up, then I gave them a check. We chatted a bit. They entered everything into the computer. Then they gave me the papers and I look down and see that I just transferred the title of HIS car to me.

N/BPDx gave me HIS car title in court.

It has to be a mistake, right? He's a lawyer. My lawyer is a lawyer! I can't believe this went through two lawyers, then me, and no one caught it.

So I had the DML guy back it out of the system. I know, I know, why not just leave it like that, right? 

Because I want the title to MY car.

Now I have the title to N/BPDx's car, but it has been notarized as though he is transferring the title. The title is no good anymore. At first, I started to ask about how to get N/BPDx a new title, and then my codependent alarm bells starting going off. Let him figure out how to get a duplicate title.

Then I asked DMV if I could get the title to my car without actually having the title, if I had a court ruling that I get the title. They said yes. The official order won't be entered until second week of November, so I can't do it right away, but I'm relieved that I don't have to go back to court with N/BPDx to try and get my title a SECOND time. Or is it a third time, I'm losing track. So for anyone here who ever encounters this, let it be known that you can get a duplicate title from the DMV if you have a court order from the judge.

I talked to my L and told her I wanted to take possession of N/BPDx's car in exchange for the $$$ in legal fees he owes me. I told her let N/BPDx take the bus to work. Or jail. I'm taking his car. 

Joking of course.

My L just filed a motion for contempt about N/BPDx not paying my legal fees. She is going to tell the judge that I have the title to his car, and can I take possession of it if N/BPDx does not pay me within 1 week.

So maybe he won't go to jail. I'll just get his car and sell it. And it's worth more than what my legal fees are worth.

And yes, I grew enough of a backbone over all this BS that I would gladly take ownership of his car and sell it.

I can't believe the irony of this. In court, N/BPDx kept claiming that I was trying to assert ownership of his car (because he didn't transfer the title after I signed it over to him, and when I changed my physical address with DMV, the address of his car directed toward me -- he thought that was me "claiming ownership of his car).

Then, when I was explaining the problem to DMV, they kept saying, "Are you saying you DON'T want to claim ownership of this vehicle?"

What a circus.

[Free One]

It always seems like a comedy of errors with pwBPD, except it's not funny!

At least you have some progress!

[ForeverDad]

  Yes, keep your options open.

You know what his - I mean, your - title is, right?  Leverage! ... .or payment, who cares which?

So confounding, you can't reason with disordered people to behave better but they generally know the value of $$$.

[scraps66]

I've learned, or conditioned myself, to not give my uNPD/BPDexw any benefit of the doubt.  My gf claims I am "paranoid."  I am, and i'm sure it does come across as such - my psych eval confirmed this.  I have had it demonstrated for me time and again, the high IQ sociopathimind of these individuals astounds me, the creativity and the energy put into fabricating situations.  It may very well be the case that your ex knowingly and slyly willfully switched the titles knowing what would happen.  I'm disappointed, but, it is difficult to keep up with a sociopathic mind, they have this thinking engrained and it is difficult if not impossible to predict or understand how they come up with this stuff.   

[ForeverDad]

It may very well be the case that your ex knowingly and slyly willfully switched the titles knowing what would happen.

You'll never get a straight answer out of him.  If not an accidental switch, if he did it to purposely delay your case, then he messed up.  He's given you some leverage to get concessions out of him.  Either he pays up or the judge says you get your car and grants you his car too if he doesn't pay up.  After all, he's a lawyer, (1) he should know better and (2) he can always make more money.

[livednlearned]

Maybe he did it on purpose, maybe not. At this point, I think his brain is so addled by alcohol that he isn't functioning well. I saw him in court and he sounds articulate, but nothing adds up. It doesn't make sense. It's like a little kid talking in a made-up foreign language. Only makes sense to the kid.

Gah, though. I. Just. Want. This. To. Be. Over.

[whirlpoollife]

Maybe a forensic IT investigator?

Lnl, where would I look up an IT investigator?

[livednlearned]

Maybe a forensic IT investigator?

Lnl, where would I look up an IT investigator?

I found mine through my L. They have to have both IT skills and understand the law, otherwise their forensic investigation could actually contaminate the evidence. So lawyer networks will probably be able to recommend someone. If not your family lawyer, criminal defense lawyers.

[whirlpoollife]

Ok thank you.

[NewWays]

LivedNLearned... .

I am sorry that you have to go through all of this and wish you patience and peace as you travel you path.  Hopefully we all learn as we travel through the divorce process.

The unfortunate part of having a partner with a personality disorder makes it very likely ending such a relationship will be very stressful and difficult. Many of us know, and have experienced and have learned the hard way... .that our disordered partners with NPD or BPD are impacted by many issues that ultimately impacted us during our relationship as well as even more so during the divorce.

My therapist continues to remind me that now I am in the final phases of divorce... .that all the issues my wife has due to her personality disorder... .unfortunately in your case (and my case and most likely all of our cases) take on additional impact and cause our partners to exhibit more anomalous behaviors that makes getting divorced and your ex actually living up to all the court orders and agreements even more of a struggle.

Here are examples of what I am looking at in the dynamic with my wife…and her DBPD that are similar to what you have outlined:

Fear of Abandonment

I finally drew the line and told my wife that our marriage had disintegrated and that unless we both wanted to…and were committed to long term comprehensive therapy for a year or more was the only hope we had.  Even with all the unhealthy elements that existed in our marriage, this notice to my wife sparked an atomic blast of abandonment fear that caused that fear to escalate along with her extreme need to control that saw her file for the divorce.

Anger

My wife and her rage and anger would happen when after she would verbally and sometimes physically abuse me and I would detach and disengage to focus on me well being.  This behavior on my part was seen by my wife as me being neglectful, withholding, uncaring and abandoning that resulted in her anger and rage spiking to new levels driving her to file for the divorce rather that openly and honestly talking about the need for both of us to begin long term comprehensive therapy.

This new incremental anger has seemed to cause my wife to feel like a victim…and she believes and tells me that all the problems in our marriage are due to me and that she has been wronged and I have stolen and/or messed up the best years of her life because of me causing our marriage to fail.

I now hear this “Victim” rationale that she has replayed to friends, relative and her attorney that she uses to sway their opinions and continually reminds them to when they see me to remind me of my failures as a marriage partner and the ultimate cause of the marriage to fail!

Narcissist Element

This is the area that I fail to remind myself as often as I should and keep in my top of mind awareness and understanding and gets me into feeling frustrated when she acts out and I get frustrated without thinking of the possible reasons for her behavior.

In my sessions I have learned that with her Narcissist tendencies, she is very self-serving... .all during our marriage she has been exceptionally charming in public settings, yet has used that charm to get her way, while treating me with very little respect.

I have also learned that when a Narcissist falls in love with you, it is like a dream, because narcissists will love you for making them so happy…but it has little staying power or a loving relationship.  To narcissists when they decide you have wronged them and the marriage is over…your history together does not really exist…especially if you have disappointed a Narcissist or they feel like you failed and the failure of the marriage is your doing…whatever love you had after they decide to throw you away will not help the divorce to proceed with any mutual progress and they will often adopt the I must win at all costs attitude that will become the norm during and possibly even after the divorce if there are children involved or the divorce decree requires them to sell the house, refinance the house or pay-off credit card debt by a certain date and they will ignore you, the court orders and be in 100% contempt of both!

Winning... .I have set my expectations to not expect that!

I pray each day to just keep moving forward so the divorce can become final.  Each day I also pray even though I wanted a family... .I have been blessed that after we got married that she informed me she had changed her mind and that she had decided she was not going to have any children.

What she would have put the children thorugh would have been the worst.

NewWays

[livednlearned]

Hi NewWays,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful perspective -- this particularly caught me:

To narcissists when they decide you have wronged them and the marriage is over…your history together does not really exist…especially if you have disappointed a Narcissist or they feel like you failed and the failure of the marriage is your doing…whatever love you had after they decide to throw you away will not help the divorce to proceed with any mutual progress and they will often adopt the I must win at all costs attitude that will become the norm during and possibly even after the divorce if there are children involved or the divorce decree requires them to sell the house, refinance the house or pay-off credit card debt by a certain date and they will ignore you, the court orders and be in 100% contempt of both!

There have been so many hard parts along the way. But when I found myself cast as villain with no reasonable explanation why, and no possible way to redeem myself... .I just couldn't believe it. I still can't believe it. Being split black was one of the most psychologically shocking and awful things I had experienced. It took a long time to realize that it was traumatizing because it was crazy. The reason you can't repair the relationship isn't because you failed. It's because your partner was crazy. And crazy, the way I experienced it, was discovering that N/BPDx lacked empathy. The paranoia and mania also didn't help.

After I told friends that I was awarded sole custody, they were happy. I didn't feel happy, though. I felt relief that trial was over. I felt exhausted. I felt certain that the outcome was just and appropriate. I knew that sole custody meant less worrying, but that it wouldn't eliminate the worrying. I knew I would be able to travel across the border to see my family. But the irony is that this whole thing strained my relationship with my family so badly there almost isn't even a family to go visit.

I feel like I just survived a battle and I'm walking around a war-torn village where everything has to be rebuilt. But at least we're safe and the pillaging is over for now.

I'm in a new relationship with someone I am 99.9% certain doesn't have a PD. But I feel hollowed out by this experience. Sometimes I wonder how close you can ever feel to someone after going through a PD relationship. I don't even try to explain. I go silent a lot when certain topics come up because it takes too much effort to try and explain how disorienting life is with a pwBPD.

I'm glad you're getting through the divorce process -- it sounds like you understand the disorder so well. I think that helps, even if it doesn't fully heal things.

[NewWays]

I'm in a new relationship with someone I am 99.9% certain doesn't have a PD. But I feel hollowed out by this experience. Sometimes I wonder how close you can ever feel to someone after going through a PD relationship. I don't even try to explain. I go silent a lot when certain topics come up because it takes too much effort to try and explain how disorienting life is with a pwBPD.

Just reading a part of your reply makes me really feel a sense of concern for you.  How can you be certain?  I know many of us feel since we have ended a marriage with a person that is personality disordered with NPD, BPD, etc., that we are experts at now being able to see this in a person and/or a new partner.

My therapist tells me to not be so sure that the ability to immediately see those terrible traits is at its highest level after the person is out of your life.  He notes that the awarness comes with a blend of healing, time and a retrospection that you undergo with possible new partners that is cognitive based rather than emotionally based.  His warning is based upon what he explained relates to that as a partner of an individual that has NPD or BPD traits, we as a that type of partner have issues and work to do since we were in such a relationship to begin with and made decision to stay... .before our divorce.

He points out to be careful... .since many of us have pleaser, fixer, sense of self, and other possible co-dependency issues that we need to really understand as part of that healing.

He further explained this and asked me to think back to previous relationships that I could recall that were at least 6 years past or more and to tell him one element of that relationship that now that I have awarness of PD and what better boundaries are that I believe could have had PD issues... .but asked that it be such relationship that I really wanted to save and keep but failed.

What I expained to him and he commented back to me about was a past relationship with a woman I loved very much, but back then, I did not know what female partner to male partner verbal and/emotional abuse was or even existed.  When I explained to him that one of the most painful parts of that past relationship was when my partner would become extremely angry... .more than seemed reasonable and that she would stop talking to me for days and sometimes weeks... .even with me trying to re-engage, repair the damage of the angry interaction... .and... .what I thought was something I had done and asked that we go to counseling to try and improve and find a way to not let these negative interactions damage our relationship... .which she refused and would not go.

He indicated that some of the traits that we all have exhibited with our current spouse that we divorce or are divorcing that is personality disordered... .in fact enables the damage the relationship does to us and... .and he pointed out... .most of the time past behavior that we exhibited showed evidence that we can point out to some degree in previous relationships.

So... .be care... .I know you feel for sure... .at a 99.9% level... .but that .1% can be high risk since at the time you bonded with you ex-husband, I'm sure you felt 100% before you married that this was the right person for you for life.

Just passing on what my T reminds me about... .when the topic ever get to the subject of what about new relationships... .and points out that as far as personality disordered partners, repetition is not the key to learning and that repeating a relationship with someone who has traits like your ex... .is NOT AN OPTION!

On another note... .I need to tell you how much I admire your tenacity and keeping it all together going thorugh this with children as a part of the equation.

I cannot even begin to try and imagine what I would be dealing with if we had a family... .so for what you and all the others on this site that have children try to do the best they can do with their children with a personality disordered spouse... .I take my hat off to all of you... .and must say I could not do what you do each day in addition to protect your kids.

NewWays