not sure what winning means anymore

[livednlearned]

Just reading a part of your reply makes me really feel a sense of concern for you.  How can you be certain?  I know many of us feel since we have ended a marriage with a person that is personality disordered with NPD, BPD, etc., that we are experts at now being able to see this in a person and/or a new partner.

My therapist tells me to not be so sure that the ability to immediately see those terrible traits is at its highest level after the person is out of your life.  He notes that the awarness comes with a blend of healing, time and a retrospection that you undergo with possible new partners that is cognitive based rather than emotionally based.  His warning is based upon what he explained relates to that as a partner of an individual that has NPD or BPD traits, we as a that type of partner have issues and work to do since we were in such a relationship to begin with and made decision to stay... .before our divorce.

He points out to be careful... .since many of us have pleaser, fixer, sense of self, and other possible co-dependency issues that we need to really understand as part of that healing.

He further explained this and asked me to think back to previous relationships that I could recall that were at least 6 years past or more and to tell him one element of that relationship that now that I have awarness of PD and what better boundaries are that I believe could have had PD issues... .but asked that it be such relationship that I really wanted to save and keep but failed.

What I expained to him and he commented back to me about was a past relationship with a woman I loved very much, but back then, I did not know what female partner to male partner verbal and/emotional abuse was or even existed.  When I explained to him that one of the most painful parts of that past relationship was when my partner would become extremely angry... .more than seemed reasonable and that she would stop talking to me for days and sometimes weeks... .even with me trying to re-engage, repair the damage of the angry interaction... .and... .what I thought was something I had done and asked that we go to counseling to try and improve and find a way to not let these negative interactions damage our relationship... .which she refused and would not go.

He indicated that some of the traits that we all have exhibited with our current spouse that we divorce or are divorcing that is personality disordered... .in fact enables the damage the relationship does to us and... .and he pointed out... .most of the time past behavior that we exhibited showed evidence that we can point out to some degree in previous relationships.

So... .be care... .I know you feel for sure... .at a 99.9% level... .but that .1% can be high risk since at the time you bonded with you ex-husband, I'm sure you felt 100% before you married that this was the right person for you for life.

Just passing on what my T reminds me about... .when the topic ever get to the subject of what about new relationships... .and points out that as far as personality disordered partners, repetition is not the key to learning and that repeating a relationship with someone who has traits like your ex... .is NOT AN OPTION!

Thanks for being so concerned 

Your T and my T talk the same language. I pretty much had to get her approval before I started dating again -- it took me 2 years post-divorce to even be remotely sure I was ready. And I wasn't looking -- he just happened.

How do you know someone doesn't have a PD? I don't think you do. They fool therapists, so they can fool us too. The only thing you can do is know what your feelings are, know what your boundaries are, and assert them. Also study them carefully around their friends and family, which I've been able to do.

It isn't just the PD behaviors that I'm looking for, it's any old boundary busting behavior.

There aren't a lot of good things about divorcing a pwBPD, but growing a backbone is definitely one of the silver linings. Maybe that's what you win in a BPD divorce. Yourself.

[NewWays]

Lived n Learned... .

Your wisdom is awesome!  Do not mean to sound over concerned... .but as you point out... ."There are not a lot of good things about divorcing a person with NPD or BPD... .but growing a backbone is definately one of the silver linings"... .my T serves up a three bucket equation as it relates to this area... .He says... ."Awarness preceeds Backbone and Action"... .or Awarness + Backbone = Action.

I had little awarness or understanding of what PDs were when we got married, let alone some of what are unhealthy relationship interactions.  Heck... .I never even for one second knew that something as common as the "Silent Treatment" is a passive-aggressive form of emotional abuse!  When my wife would exhibit displeasure, disapproval, reprimanding and contempt via nov-verbal gestures... .but not talk to me for weeks at a time, I just thought she was being herself... .and/or incorrectly applied the stereo type as an excuse of her actions.

With the awarness you have gained and the careful study you conduct with family and friends, do you feel you now can readily identify those persons that are personalty disordered?

I'b be interested in your thoughts.

NewWays

[maxen]

reading this entire thread has been an education, and l-and-l praise to you for dealing with such a weirdo (if i may) and maintaining your humor.

There have been so many hard parts along the way. But when I found myself cast as villain with no reasonable explanation why, and no possible way to redeem myself... .I just couldn't believe it. I still can't believe it. Being split black was one of the most psychologically shocking and awful things I had experienced. It took a long time to realize that it was traumatizing because it was crazy. The reason you can't repair the relationship isn't because you failed. It's because your partner was crazy. And crazy, the way I experienced it, was discovering that N/BPDx lacked empathy.

all of this has also been part of my experience. my BPDstbxw's callousness has been a revelation. it's just deranging.

[livednlearned]

With the awarness you have gained and the careful study you conduct with family and friends, do you feel you now can readily identify those persons that are personalty disordered?

I'b be interested in your thoughts.

NewWays

For a while, it seemed like my new hobby was to dx everyone with a PD. We can be too armored up, I think. But it also seems like an important stage to go through -- being hyper vigilant.

I think the main thing difference now is that if someone treats me badly, I know it's "Hello boundary, buh bye crazy pants." It's the behavior I won't allow in my life, not just the disorder.

And I'm also very vigilant about run-of-the-mill unhealthy behaviors. Like new guy -- I was driving his car while we were on our trip. He was giving me directions (good), but then he started to explain to me how to go around a round-about (yield to cars already in the circle, duh). I could've A) ignored it or seethed quietly. B) made a sarcastic comment like "thanks dad" or C) later pointed it out in a way that let him see his behavior while asserting my own boundary. I did C -- "I think when you feel out of sorts, you focus on me instead of you. How come?" Then I explained what he did, and why I thought he did it, and how it made me feel. Super ninja gentle stuff -- he just melted like putty. 

Made us feel closer that I could say it, he didn't feel criticized, and now he knows I'm onto him.

So now my new hobby is dx'ing everyone codependent. 

[momtara]

Ha ha!  You are smart.  How did you meet the new guy?  Do you keep this info from your ex?

You set a good example.  I'm sorry that the PD has affected you for life, but it seems like it has taught you some good coping and relationship skills, anyway.

And... .I know I'm codependent.  So your dx wouldn't be wrong if you were talking to me!

[coffee shop]

Lived you are smart, not sure I would say it in a way that wouldn't sound flip. I will just have to keep reading more on the subject.

[livednlearned]

Ha ha!  You are smart.  How did you meet the new guy?  Do you keep this info from your ex?

You set a good example.  I'm sorry that the PD has affected you for life, but it seems like it has taught you some good coping and relationship skills, anyway.

And... .I know I'm codependent.  So your dx wouldn't be wrong if you were talking to me!

I think figuring out the codependent behavior was my gigantic leap forward. Maybe that's the winning -- focusing on myself instead of other people. I still try to control other people, but at least I know there's an alternative, and the alternative (focusing on me) is the only thing that seems to work. Even though it's not always comfortable.

I met new guy walking dogs in our neighborhood. N/BPDx doesn't know about him, to my knowledge. Although S12 does know, so maybe it's just a matter of time. S12 doesn't know new guy's last name, and I plan to keep it that way as long as I can so new guy doesn't come under fire. I've read too many stories here that make me nervous about PD reactions.

[livednlearned]

Winning is never winning.

There is no winning.

I took my Conclusions of Law from the last hearing, to show DMV that the judge said I could have the title to my car. DMV sent me through a meat grinder. I forgot about normal irritating things like the DMV because I've been dealing with bigger aggravations. But guys, DMV is like the junior version of family court.

They wanted a notarized signed copy of the Conclusions of Law. What the heck. Like the official stamp that shows the filing, and the presiding judge's signature isn't enough? Gah.

Also, I have to have an amendment that includes the VIN number of my vehicle in the Conclusions of Law, and a sentence that says the judge instructs DMV to permit transfer of title from defendant to plaintiff, VIN # blah blah blah.

The guy at DMV kept saying, "Can't you just get your ex husband to sign over the title?"

DMV guy, you clearly have no pwBPD in your life.

So what should I do? Pay my lawyer to redraft the Conclusions of Law and get the new language entered, and then have the judge sign it AGAIN?

Or do I write to N/BPDx and say, "You signed your car over to me." He is going to be ashamed that he made a mistake, and the spray of embarrassment from that interaction is going to be directed at me. If indeed it was a mistake. And then it opens up the issue about the title to his car, and how he now needs to get a duplicate one because he and my lawyer have signed his title to his car, basically ruining it.

Meanwhile, I'm about to sign the quit claim deed to my house, since it appears he has refinanced it. Since my lawyer didn't catch the fact that N/BPDx gave her the wrong title, I'm doubting whether she understands how this stuff goes. I have a letter from the title company saying that they will not record the QCD until the new financing has been recorded.

Do I really just sign a QCD, then send it in the mail, and hope things are ok? It doesn't seem right.

[ForeverDad]

You quit claim deed is just about your only leverage.  No, don't let it leave your control until he new mortgage is recorded.  If you hand it over, then you have no way to pressure him now or later to do it.

[livednlearned]

You quit claim deed is just about your only leverage.  No, don't let it leave your control until he new mortgage is recorded.  If you hand it over, then you have no way to pressure him now or later to do it.

The woman from the title company wrote a letter saying she would not file the QCD until the new mortgage is recorded -- that's what the real estate attorney seemed to think was all that was needed. But is the letter really enough? Shouldn't I see that the mortgage has been recorded first? Surely there must be a document I need to sign?

[PrettyPlease]

It always seems like a comedy of errors with pwBPD, except it's not funny!

Exactly exactly. I remember thinking, while with now-ex pwBPD, that we could only survive like this in a rich century, with so much inaccuracy, denial, and confusion in our relationship. If we were living hand-to-mouth and there were tigers in the tall grass we'd be dead in an hour.   

PP

[Free One]

Winning is never winning.

There is no winning.

I took my Conclusions of Law from the last hearing, to show DMV that the judge said I could have the title to my car. DMV sent me through a meat grinder. I forgot about normal irritating things like the DMV because I've been dealing with bigger aggravations. But guys, DMV is like the junior version of family court.

They wanted a notarized signed copy of the Conclusions of Law. What the heck. Like the official stamp that shows the filing, and the presiding judge's signature isn't enough? Gah.

Also, I have to have an amendment that includes the VIN number of my vehicle in the Conclusions of Law, and a sentence that says the judge instructs DMV to permit transfer of title from defendant to plaintiff, VIN # blah blah blah.

The guy at DMV kept saying, "Can't you just get your ex husband to sign over the title?"

DMV guy, you clearly have no pwBPD in your life.

So what should I do? Pay my lawyer to redraft the Conclusions of Law and get the new language entered, and then have the judge sign it AGAIN?

Or do I write to N/BPDx and say, "You signed your car over to me." He is going to be ashamed that he made a mistake, and the spray of embarrassment from that interaction is going to be directed at me. If indeed it was a mistake. And then it opens up the issue about the title to his car, and how he now needs to get a duplicate one because he and my lawyer have signed his title to his car, basically ruining it.

Meanwhile, I'm about to sign the quit claim deed to my house, since it appears he has refinanced it. Since my lawyer didn't catch the fact that N/BPDx gave her the wrong title, I'm doubting whether she understands how this stuff goes. I have a letter from the title company saying that they will not record the QCD until the new financing has been recorded.

Do I really just sign a QCD, then send it in the mail, and hope things are ok? It doesn't seem right.

Try again on a different day with same order different employee. Lay the sweetness on thick, "This has really been a bear for me to get taken care of. I have a signed order, but I've still been here a few times without resolution, but I KNOW you will be able to help me." 

[livednlearned]

Winning is never winning.

There is no winning.

I took my Conclusions of Law from the last hearing, to show DMV that the judge said I could have the title to my car. DMV sent me through a meat grinder. I forgot about normal irritating things like the DMV because I've been dealing with bigger aggravations. But guys, DMV is like the junior version of family court.

They wanted a notarized signed copy of the Conclusions of Law. What the heck. Like the official stamp that shows the filing, and the presiding judge's signature isn't enough? Gah.

Also, I have to have an amendment that includes the VIN number of my vehicle in the Conclusions of Law, and a sentence that says the judge instructs DMV to permit transfer of title from defendant to plaintiff, VIN # blah blah blah.

The guy at DMV kept saying, "Can't you just get your ex husband to sign over the title?"

DMV guy, you clearly have no pwBPD in your life.

So what should I do? Pay my lawyer to redraft the Conclusions of Law and get the new language entered, and then have the judge sign it AGAIN?

Or do I write to N/BPDx and say, "You signed your car over to me." He is going to be ashamed that he made a mistake, and the spray of embarrassment from that interaction is going to be directed at me. If indeed it was a mistake. And then it opens up the issue about the title to his car, and how he now needs to get a duplicate one because he and my lawyer have signed his title to his car, basically ruining it.

Meanwhile, I'm about to sign the quit claim deed to my house, since it appears he has refinanced it. Since my lawyer didn't catch the fact that N/BPDx gave her the wrong title, I'm doubting whether she understands how this stuff goes. I have a letter from the title company saying that they will not record the QCD until the new financing has been recorded.

Do I really just sign a QCD, then send it in the mail, and hope things are ok? It doesn't seem right.

Try again on a different day with same order different employee. Lay the sweetness on thick, "This has really been a bear for me to get taken care of. I have a signed order, but I've still been here a few times without resolution, but I KNOW you will be able to help me." 

I wrote my L asking her if she can amend the Conclusions of Law so that it specifically mentions the VIN number and addresses the DMV, giving them permission to transfer title. It's times like this that make me realize how seriously crazy BPD is. That I have to do this instead of asking him to send me the title.

Sometimes this stuff makes me just plain angry. Usually I suck it up because that's what I was trained to do. Now I feel p!ssed.

The house stuff: I wrote the real estate attorney and my attorney and said, Really? Don't I need to see the new mortgage has been recorded? This is N/BPDx here. And my L, well -- clearly details are not her strong point. Winning custody, yes. Looking carefully at car titles? No. So I'm asking the real estate attorney to bring his full detail-oriented self to the matter.

[ForeverDad]

Sounds like ex is a walking and talking Murphy.  If it can go wrong, he will make sure it does go wrong.

[livednlearned]

Back. In. Court. Again. Today.

Please send me a desk to bang my head against. Mine has a dent in it from prior head banging.

Today, we went to court because N/BPDx had a Motion to Compel Discovery. The discovery was about 25 pages long. With emails attached, it was about 50. N/BPDx wanted me to admit or deny all kinds of bizarre things. By bizarre, I mean bizarre. Admit I did this, deny I did that. Including my favorite: Admit that I did not deny the affair(s).

He filed this back in the spring. We filed an extension. Then, in the meantime, we had a hearing that determined I was to be awarded full custody. N/BPDx stuck to his right to have his motion heard. Thing is, we had the hearing. Why does he need discovery for a hearing that has passed? Because he's BPD.

So we listened to him make an argument to get me to produce discovery items so he could... .argue that the conclusions of law made by this same judge were somehow not sound. N/BPDx is a lawyer. Anyone out there divorcing a lawyer -- let it be known that you have nothing to fear. The BPD cancels out the legal expertise. Entirely.

Next, we go back to court in December. If he hasn't paid me legal fees by that time, either A) he goes to jail right then and there. Or B) he has until noon the next day to pay. If he doesn't have it, he reports to jail.

That's only for the legal fees from the first hearing though. I'll have to file a motion for contempt to get him to pay legal fees from the last motion for contempt.

If it didn't cost so much money, I might see the humor in this. Instead, it's just making me so mad. Sorry to anyone on these boards if I'm sounding more and more blunt in response to your posts, but I'm so angry about this now. I'm fed up with BPD.

[whirlpoollife]

Lnl  wow . No advice but  .

[Free One]

Sorry to anyone on these boards if I'm sounding more and more blunt in response to your posts, but I'm so angry about this now. I'm fed up with BPD.

I would be too!

[Free One]

During my divorce, I had to file a quit claim deed for my ex to refinance. It was explained to me that I had to sign the QCD BEFORE the bank would fund the loan. I was nervous about this, but my lawyer added some wording in some temp agreement that ex would have to quit claim back to me if he was unable to refinance (he had no job at the time). Well, somehow he did it - but in the process HE had filled out the QCD deed wrong and it was invalid. No one ever said anything, and I didn't remedy it for about a year after the divorce (when I had business at the assessor's office anyway).

[livednlearned]

I just let my neurotic side run free here -- decided to call everyone, get things in email, emailed the real estate attorney, and my other attorney, and just kept saying: No mistakes here people. It's ok to make mistakes, but not with this account. You over there closing on this, explain xyz. You with the mortgage company, I need a notice saying I am no longer liable for the home equity. Real estate attorney, help me out here.

That kind of thing. The jumping up and down banging tables kind of thing, except through email.

Felt good.

Real estate attorney called everyone, was very diligent, explained the whole process to me, and said I think this thing is solid. We got a letter from the home equity company releasing me from legal liability, and a letter saying they would record things in the correct order, and everyone seems to understand nothing wrong can happen here.

Because if it did, it means going back to court to fix it. And people, I am done with court. Once this refi is done and the title is in my name only, and N/BPDx pays me legal fees, and and and. Well, I guess I'm not done with court... .

But you know what I mean. I don't want to be back in court because someone didn't fill out a document correctly.

Honestly, I think that would break me.

[Free One]

Good for you. You took action and you did what you good to resolve the situation. Now it's out of your hands and we'll hope for the best!

[whirlpoollife]

A quote from the book, ":)ivorcing a Narcissit , One Moms Battle" by Tina Swithin.

""You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it. - Margaret Thatcher""

[livednlearned]

A quote from the book, ":)ivorcing a Narcissit , One Moms Battle" by Tina Swithin.

""You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it. - Margaret Thatcher""

That is so true. That quote speaks volumes. Thanks wplife.