court fri oct 25th

[Eco]

so my day in court is in 2 days. I wasn't going to get a lawyer because I couldn't afford one but I was able to get a lawyer 2 weeks ago thanks to my sister. Im going for legitimation and joint custody and visitation away from my ex. she isn't fighting the legitimation but she wants full custody and supervised visits at her house.

Im asking the judge for as much visitation as possible. hopefully the judge will give me joint custody so I can be involved in decisions with my daughter who is 7 months old, so far ive been left out in anything to do with my daughter.

right now she is giving me visitation at her house every other mon from 2 pm to 5 pm ( I dont get off work till 2 pm so I don't get to her house till 230) every wed from 2 pm to 5 pm and every other sat from 7 am to 10 am.

she is saying that she doesn't want me to take her to my house for visitation because im 35 min away

I hope the judge gives me more time then that and unsupervised.

im bringing all the texts to show her hostility towards me and the resistance she has given me where my daughter is involved. Also I have a document notarized from my sons councilor stating that im a good parent and fully capable of taking care of my daughter.

also I found out that her lawyer is doing this pro bono, im not sure if that's good or bad for me   

[KateCat]

Eco, you've been busy! Good for you . . . and great for your daughter.

[sanemom]

Eco, please keep us posted!  Your daughter needs more time with you.  Hopefully your judge gets that already.  :-)

[ForeverDad]

Her lawyer is pro bono?  Then she's conned the lawyer with her sob stories.  The lawyer should know better.  As in, trust but verify.  However, lawyers are hired to please the client, not to do the right thing.  So don't expect her lawyer to be 'fair'.

Sadly, you can't expect a reasonable offer or position from an entitled pwBPD (or one with other acting-out PDs).  And not from the lawyer either, after all, lawyers are paid to advise the clients but in the end they do what the clients pay them to do.   Accept that.  What you do is go in there and shine a light on the various facets of her actions and behaviors while simultaneously putting your best foot forward.

The financials are generally straightforward, just beware of being pressured to be the typical "remote parent with deep pockets".  It may turn out that way but don't enable it.

Point out how she has set herself up effectively as the monitor of supervised visitation but without any basis to do so.  There is no indication in your history that there is any reason to restrict your parenting.  It would be nice for you to state your case that due to her history of unreasonably blocking and severely limiting your parenting, then you should have substantial contact with your child due to her baseless lack of sharing your child.

In my state its every other weekend Fri to Sun and 1 day during the off week. I'm not sure if her being 5 months old will come into play.

This is likely what you may end up with.  However, don't let that be your first request to the court.  As I often say, "If you don't ask you certainly won't get, but if you do ask then maybe you'll get it or perhaps something close."  I'd suggest you ask for 50/50 at a minimum.  Odds are you won't get it but better to aim a little too high than a little too low.  Fathers often have an uphill struggle with parenting schedules, so best to start with the best you can get.

However, if your ex is saying you're dangerous or neglectful, court may first want some evaluations done promptly to clarify that issue.  If so then try to get the temp order to include language that once BOTH of you are evaluated then the temporary schedule will be updated and not wait for a final order.  (In my two year divorce case I had TWO reports, one recommending I move up to 50% parenting time and another recommending mother immediately lose her temporary custody, but court left the temp order as is with me having alternate weekends.)

One thing I noted in my case was that my court seemed most comfortable with 'standard' orders, they don't want to vary too far away, even with red flags.  (In my case, our first time in domestic court was when my ex sought protection for herself and son from me - after I had gotten protection from her in another court.  CPS said they had 'no concerns' about me so I got the typical alternate weekends and evening in between that most dads get.)

Court is generally inclined to issue standard orders.  However, she is likely to play the victim, target, protective mother, etc.  She may even get emotional, cry, etc.  While maybe you can't come right out and say you suspect she's having children from different fathers so she can get overlapping child support, maybe somehow you can sneak that in.  For example, what are the schedules of the other fathers?  If they have reasonable visitation, than say you'd like at least what the other fathers get.  If she managed to deprive them of much contact with their children, then describe them as victims of her pattern of blocking and that she's trying to do it to you too.

The bottom line is that supervised visitation is for BAD fathers - either abusive, neglectful or dangerous.  She will demand HER terms, you have to jsut as adamantly state that is not acceptable.  Until now she's done whatever she wants because you had no court orders to enforce your parenting.  You're doing the right thing, court ought to grant you that without too much haggling.

If the court wants to find a middle ground "in between" or to split the difference, then remind the court that you really feel you ought to be in charge of parenting due to her unreasonable demands about visitation.  That you can share but she obviously can't share and without specific orders otherwise she will keep doing that.  That middle ground would be granting you equal time since she wants nearly all (her entitlement) and you want majority (because unlike her you can be reasonable and share).

It's possible she may make allegations about you in court.  Nasty ones.  That happens often.  Disordered people will do almost anything to make their perceptions come true.  The judge may want an opinion from CPS or a social worker trusted by the court.  If so, then that may take a few weeks but you should get a pat on the back from them with a comment of "no concerns".  Very important - if you end up getting evaluated, then that is the time to say she needs evaluated too due to making allegations, unreasonably restricting your parenting, or whatever.  Don't forget.  If one of you gets investigated, then you both get investigated!  Got it?

Remember, you don't walk out without at least the usual parenting time unless (1) court continued it because time ran out or (2) court set a lousy temp order while ordering some evaluations or investigations or (3) the judge is totally clueless.

Remember, the judge may not be inclined to do your work for you.  You have to be the one to assertively and firmly but politely stand up for yourself.  If you walk out with less that the typical minimums free to parent without restrictions of locations or her monitoring, then you need to know WHY.

[catnap]

So glad you have your documentation.  Wishing the best! 

[Eco]

Im a bit disappointed with todays court order but its not over it was a temp order, the final hearing will be in jan.

our lawyers tried to work out a agreement but my ex wouldn't agree to what our lawyers proposed, big surprise

the judge we were supposed to see was overbooked so we got a magistrate judge. I was told by my lawyer that the original judge was very fair and just but the stand in judge was in my lawyers words is not fair and enjoyed humiliating people.

we had everything worked out but the length of visitation, my ex was only willing to give me 1 hr unsupervised every other mon and sat and 1hr unsupervised every wed. the judge said that's not enough time right away and set a graduated process for the first 5 visits I get every wed, every other sat and every other sun for 1 hr unsupervised. the sat and sun aren't together they alternate so I get 1 weekend day a week, meaning I get this sun then next weekend I get sat. after 5 visits Its moved to 3 hrs per visit on the weekend but the wed is staying at 1 hr.

positives- visitation away from my ex, the judge wants to increase my time beyond 3 hr visits by the final hearing

negatives- very limited time now with my daughter, the judge wants me to work with the mother and be understanding to the fact that my daughter is so young, he gave her a loophole that if my daughter is sick or not feeding well the day of visitation she can say today is not a good day for visitation but if she abuses that she will be in trouble and I get more time quicker.

They really have no clue what its like dealing with people like my ex, she is going to play this loophole as much as possible. and the judge didn't get to hear anything about how ive already been more then understanding with my ex.

My ex tried get yelled at by this judge twice once for talking back about the length of visitation the 2nd time she asked about me feeding her and the judge said get a pump she continued to argue about pumping and he yelled " do you want to go to jail! he is seeing his daughter!" at that point her lawyer told her to be quiet.

her lawyer told my lawyer that she was being unreasonable, I bet he regrets taking her pro bono.

none of my evidence was seen by the judge and I didn't get to say a word to him, my guess is that anything said back to him would be dismissed and I might get yelled at by the judge as he seemed to like to speak an not be spoken to except by the lawyers.

at the final hearing I will go for full weekends and longer weekday visits. I guess the purpose is to show the court that my daughter has adjusted to the visitation away from the mother, so that gives me 2 months to do that.

I think its a small step forward but I wish I got longer visitation with her.

Thanks everyone for the support and advice it helps , I would like to give more support to people on these boards but I am so new to this.

any more advice is most welcomed, Is there anything I should do or go for at the final hearing? I felt like my lawyer was scared of the judge or to cautious today . should I be concerned about that for the final hearing? she did say that this was the good victory and first step and I will definitely get more time at the final

 

[catnap]

The pro bono L may well regret trying to help her now that he has seen her in action.  Her talking back to the Judge once, could be viewed is ignorance of court room procedure, but several times shows something totally different.

She will undoubtedly pull her same shenanigans in trying to obstruct visitation, but it gives you 2 months to document that even with a court order, she will not be reasonable.   

If she as a facebook account, check it for evidence as well.  She may want to vent to her friends about how badly she was treated in court, etc.  The not being able to present your evidence this time around may have a silver lining in that she doesn't realize the many ways she is being monitored for evidence. 

I think your L was being cautious because she knew how the magistrate judge operated and did not want not get on his bad side.  One of the strengths your L has is knowing how the Judges rule in general. 

I think your L maybe feeling more more confident for January because you ex can't keep her mouth shut when it is appropriate to do so, especially since she is no longer calling the shots. 

[Eco]

well no big surprise I was denied my visitation today by my ex on the very first day for visitation after court.

heres the text

me- I will be by at 3 today

her- what are you talking about youll be over at 3?

me-today is my sun 3 to 4 pm

her- an order has not been put in place until it is you do not come.

me-ok I will let my lawyer know and the judge. the order is in place we don't have the paperwork yet is all

her-no! there is no order put in place

her- you do what you want. I was not made aware that you were supposed to come today. had I been told on fri you were coming today I would have been prepared and anyway we had to stay home from church today because she is really sick so today wouldn't have been good anyway. hopefully she will be better by wed so you can see her then

thoughts on this? 

[ForeverDad]

(1) Predictable.  (2) Document.  (3) Don't argue with her, always appear as the reasonable but properly involved parent.

Just pondering... .In this case you could have added, "I can take care of our daughter, I will not decline parenting just because she might be a little ill.  I am a capable parent, I can care for an ill child."

Sadly, in the short term, the next couple months, she is obstructing your parenting.  First she said there was no order then when you didn't cave in she said daughter was ill.  She should have offered make up time but didn't.  "She is really sick" but likely daughter was never taken to a doctor.  Bottom line, even if the child was sick, you should be able to care for an ill child too.  Only if she was too ill for an exchange to be appropriate would it have been a valid excuse and then mother should have offered alternate time, not "next" time.

But on the positive side, she's making your case, the next 15-18 years, better.

Short term, tough; long term, better.

When you go back to court present your case that you can Share whereas she can't or won't Share.  (Courts generally don't try to change people, they deal with them as is.)  Inform the judge this is a long-standing behavior and that for the sake of your children you need more than the minimum scheduled time since she will try to keep obstructing in the years ahead.

[Eco]

Just pondering... .In this case you could have added, "I can take care of our daughter, I will not decline parenting just because she might be a little ill.  I am a capable parent, I can care for an ill child."

Thanks I was going to say that wed if she says my daughter is still sick

Sadly, in the short term, the next couple months, she is obstructing your parenting.  First she said there was no order then when you didn't cave in she said daughter was ill.  She should have offered make up time but didn't.  "She is really sick" but likely daughter was never taken to a doctor.  Bottom line, even if the child was sick, you should be able to care for an ill child too.  Only if she was too ill for an exchange to be appropriate would it have been a valid excuse and then mother should have offered alternate time, not "next" time.

yes very true, that would be nice but I cant expect that from her

[Eco]

If she as a facebook account, check it for evidence as well.  She may want to vent to her friends about how badly she was treated in court, etc.  The not being able to present your evidence this time around may have a silver lining in that she doesn't realize the many ways she is being monitored for evidence. 

she was friends with my mom but after court she unfriended her, more then likely to bash me

[Eco]

so I got a call from her tonight wanting to change my mind on bringing my daughter to my house for the 3 hr visitation because I live 40 min away. my ex is doing the attachment style parenting and claims I live to far away and in the case that she needs her mother it will take 40 min to get back to her.

I have watched her many times at my ex's house while she was gone for hrs at a time with no issues. I have feed her, changed her diaper (many times) put her down for a nap and she has several times fallen asleep on my chest while I was holding her, I feel 100% confident that my daughter feels safe and secure with me.

during the phone call I kept calm and kept telling my ex that my daughter coming to my house wouldn't be a problem and kept stating the previously stated info above to her. she tried everything to change my mind yelling, crying and guilt trips saying

" you're right she has been fine while you watched her but you want to take a chance that something might happen at your house and you will be 40 min away that's real nice to do that to your daughter you are not thinking of what's best for her only what's best for you you're selfish " 

I didn't cave or lose my cool and told her I will see her wed as planned

[ForeverDad]

Based on what she was talking about, become familiar with the hours and locations of local pediatrician offices if you are distant from the pediatrician or urgent care locations if the pediatricians are closed.

And she will keep testing your boundaries from various angles.

[Waddams]

I'd she's really sick, ask for the name of the doctor and the time of the appointment when she will be seen so you can attend.

Are you documenting/recording all this?

[DreamGirl]

Way to stay calm and cool, Eco.  

She's tapping into all those maladaptive coping skills - she's just afraid. It's a really heightened, unhealthy, and irrational fear... .but afraid all the same.  

She is just going to have to learn to accept the new normal.

during the phone call I kept calm and kept telling my ex that my daughter coming to my house wouldn't be a problem and kept stating the previously stated info above to her. she tried everything to change my mind yelling, crying and guilt trips saying

I think staying calm and letting her know, like a broken record, that everything really is going to be OK is pretty mature of you. It's hard to be patient and grounded when someone is screaming at you. Kudos to you for allowing her the space as she attempts to self soothe (and can't), therefore getting out whatever it is that she needs to get out. Time will help her in that. Like I said, there's not much more she can do. (And why the extinction bursting)

Your kids will learn a great deal from the example you're setting. Yes indeed.

Hope you're able to get your daughter on Wednesday with a minimal amount of drama.    

[Eco]

Are you documenting/recording all this?

Yes, I told my lawyer today and she will contact the judge and opposing council if it continues

And she will keep testing your boundaries from various angles.

absolutely, she is basically saying that while my daughter is a infant my ex wont feel comfortable with me having visitation at my house because its to far away. that's unacceptable to me and im not going to accept that.

[Eco]

thank you dreamgirl

I think staying calm and letting her know, like a broken record, that everything really is going to be OK is pretty mature of you. It's hard to be patient and grounded when someone is screaming at you. Kudos to you for allowing her the space as she attempts to self soothe (and can't), therefore getting out whatever it is that she needs to get out. Time will help her in that. Like I said, there's not much more she can do. (And why the extinction bursting)

I think its because she is losing control of the situation which triggers her.

Hope you're able to get your daughter on Wednesday with a minimal amount of drama.  Empathy 

thanks me too, it will be a week Wednesday since ive seen my daughter so I miss her a lot

[Eco]

well today was visitation and it was a bust, she texted me before hand and told me my daughter was still sick and today was not a good day but she was willing to let me see her so I wouldn't think she was making it up. My daughter is definitely sick, I got to spend about 10 min with her before my ex started on me about doing visitation away from her and when I didn't budge she started her raging I handled it well till her 3 yr old came out and asked me if I was taking her sister away I calmly told her I wasn't and before I could explain to her that its like when her dad picks her up to spend time with her my ex interrupted and said he is taking her away!

I left at that point after telling my ex that it was sad that she was dragging her kids through the mud and putting fear in them by saying im taking her sister away.

I have it documented and I called my lawyer and let her know what happened. I shouldn't have to put up with this

[catnap]

Had she taken the baby to the pediatrician?

I am glad that you got to see your daughter even if temporarily.  How sad that she scared her 3 year-old.  Good for you immediately reporting the incident to your L. 

[ForeverDad]

No, you shouldn't put up with this, but this is the lousy situation until court determines what is actually happening and hopefully steps in with more pro-active orders.  You had to live with this for months before the court became involved.  It will be a few more weeks and maybe even a month or two for the court to determine more is needed.  Remember, this is a time to speak up for yourself.  Don't passively ask for the bare minimum.  State WHY you need more than the minimum, that ex won't share while you can and you need to be more involved for your daughter's sake long term.

Try to save yourself added expense and anguish in court later on by getting a schedule of gradually increasing time automatically.  Don't sell yourself short.

Sorry if this is a repeat, but generally sickness is not a valid reason to cancel or change the terms of visitation.  In this case you ended up with the old-style visit on her terms under her roof.  In effect, she virtually chased you out by her on-edge attitude and tense atmosphere.

Just a little runny nose?  A cold is a cold, every kid gets colds, no big deal.  A long drive each way might be an issue, but as she gets older it will be less of an issue.

If the 3 year old is not yours then there's very little you can do.  If you know the father you can inform him of the exaggerated distortions and likely alienation to some extent going on, but even he will have influence only on his time.

[DreamGirl]

I'm glad that you at least were able to see her for a little bit. I hope she feels better really soon... .and for whatever it's worth, I think it shows grace that you let her stay at her mom's when she was sick.

She won't be sick forever. She won't be an infant forever.

Mama is going to have to learn to let go. Sorry it has to be such an ugly learning experience for her. For you. For the other kiddos.

Stay par for the course. You're doing all the right things here.

[Free One]

my ex is doing the attachment style parenting and claims I live to far away and in the case that she needs her mother it will take 40 min to get back to her.

No, she is not doing attachment style parenting. She is an attached parent and using this as an excuse. If she really believed in attachment parenting for the sake of the child, she would know that extends to developing a bond with ALL caregivers - not just her.

I am sorry you are going through this. Keep documenting, and consider pushing for a doctor visit if your daughter continues to be sick. If nothing else, at least you'll have documentation.

[Eco]

Had she taken the baby to the pediatrician?

yes she said she did but I got barely any info about it, just another thing im bringing to the final hearing the lack of info I get about my daughter

No, you shouldn't put up with this, but this is the lousy situation until court determines what is actually happening and hopefully steps in with more pro-active orders.  You had to live with this for months before the court became involved.  It will be a few more weeks and maybe even a month or two for the court to determine more is needed.  Remember, this is a time to speak up for yourself.  Don't passively ask for the bare minimum.  State WHY you need more than the minimum, that ex won't share while you can and you need to be more involved for your daughter's sake long term.

Try to save yourself added expense and anguish in court later on by getting a schedule of gradually increasing time automatically.  Don't sell yourself short.

thanks FD I plan on doing just that, Im starting to get frustrated with my lawyer ive called her twice about whats going on and all ive gotten was a text saying to document everything and it will be used against her. I would like her to be more involved with my case.

Just a little runny nose?  A cold is a cold, every kid gets colds, no big deal.  A long drive each way might be an issue, but as she gets older it will be less of an issue.

she was definitely feeling bad so I didn't push to take her and the drive was the main reason. I have full confidence in my ability to care for her.

If the 3 year old is not yours then there's very little you can do.  If you know the father you can inform him of the exaggerated distortions and likely alienation to some extent going on, but even he will have influence only on his time.

no she's not mine but ive gotten to know her and do care about her.I do know the father he works with me and I told him today about it. he is going to legitimize his daughter at the first of the year, so he is in the same boat as I was with no rights.

I'm glad that you at least were able to see her for a little bit. I hope she feels better really soon... .and for whatever it's worth, I think it shows grace that you let her stay at her mom's when she was sick.

Thanks dreamgirl, at her age and the distance it wouldn't be best for my daughter

my ex is doing the attachment style parenting and claims I live to far away and in the case that she needs her mother it will take 40 min to get back to her.


No, she is not doing attachment style parenting. She is an attached parent and using this as an excuse. If she really believed in attachment parenting for the sake of the child, she would know that extends to developing a bond with ALL caregivers - not just her.

I am sorry you are going through this. Keep documenting, and consider pushing for a doctor visit if your daughter continues to be sick. If nothing else, at least you'll have documentation.

thanks free one,  that makes a lot of sense to me and I know it wont be heard but I plan on telling her

[ForeverDad]

but I plan on telling her

Realize that she may not listen, whether can't or won't doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.  Deal with what IS.  What we're sharing with you is mainly for YOU.  What she might absorb, well, it may go in one side and come out the other, if she retains a little, fine, but we're primarily helping YOU discern the situation and factors more clearly.

[catnap]

You need to get listed on your daughter's medical paperwork, if you are not already, so you can ask for a copy of her records.

If she is lying about taking her that needs to be brought to light.   

[Eco]

Realize that she may not listen, whether can't or won't doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.  Deal with what IS.  What we're sharing with you is mainly for YOU.  What she might absorb, well, it may go in one side and come out the other, if she retains a little, fine, but we're primarily helping YOU discern the situation and factors more clearly.

thanks for the reality check FD I still have a bad habit of trying to get her to see logic , more then likely it wont be heard

You need to get listed on your daughter's medical paperwork, if you are not already, so you can ask for a copy of her records.

If she is lying about taking her that needs to be brought to light

thanks I plan on it

[Surnia]

Hi eco

I am not good in all the legal stuff. I remember you however - just want to say: Keep going. I wish you all the best for the next hearing.

Your daughter has a great dad and I hope she can have as much quality time with him as possible. 

[livednlearned]

Way to stay calm and cool, Eco.  

Ditto. You're doing great.