The Lack of Empathy Again

[Depression = 72% of members]

I went out to a men's thing last night (Bible study/fellowship). my pwBPDex (who's still living in my house, trying to move out, and may or may not be in contact with her kid-lover) took care of our D1, S3, though by the time I got home, she still had our son up, about an hour past his bedtime.

I was making something to eat. She came in and shared off my plate (I gave her permission, it was a long running joke that it drove me nuts, not really anymore). She asked me how it went. I said that I was severely depressed the whole day, but about halfway through, I felt better. Told her about some of the things they were talking about. She asked, "why were you depressed?" I looked at her and said, "I almost didn't throw that out there, because I knew you would say exactly that. But are you kidding me?" and I threw up my hands and motioned around us. She just looked at me. I got up thereafter, looked at her and said, "you have a great talent for understating things," whereafter she said, "I do?" but left it at that, and walked out. Later, we interacted as parents due to our D1 being sick, but that was it. I left in the am darkness before anyone got up.

I can't wait to be away from this woman!

The vengeful spirit part of me can't wait to start gaslighting her, too. Because looking back, I found that I could... .and probably can very easily. Easy to do in someone with no clear identity, who is ever anxious about what others think of her. Almost in a Hannibal Lecter type of way, I could do it. No, she's the mother of our children... .need to keep it in my head.,

[Turkish]

I went out to a men's thing last night (Bible study/fellowship). my pwBPDex (who's still living in my house, trying to move out, and may or may not be in contact with her kid-lover) took care of our D1, S3, though by the time I got home, she still had our son up, about an hour past his bedtime.

I was making something to eat. She came in and shared off my plate (I gave her permission, it was a long running joke that it drove me nuts, not really anymore). She asked me how it went. I said that I was severely depressed the whole day, but about halfway through, I felt better. Told her about some of the things they were talking about. She asked, "why were you depressed?" I looked at her and said, "I almost didn't throw that out there, because I knew you would say exactly that. But are you kidding me?" and I threw up my hands and motioned around us. She just looked at me. I got up thereafter, looked at her and said, "you have a great talent for understating things," whereafter she said, "I do?" but left it at that, and walked out. Later, we interacted as parents due to our D1 being sick, but that was it. I left in the am darkness before anyone got up.

I can't wait to be away from this woman!

The vengeful spirit part of me can't wait to start gaslighting her, too. Because looking back, I found that I could... .and probably can very easily. Easy to do in someone with no clear identity, who is ever anxious about what others think of her. Almost in a Hannibal Lecter type of way, I could do it. No, she's the mother of our children... .need to keep it in my head.,

[maxen]

that's truly infuriating. you handled it well, turkish, by not pursuing it.

unfortunately that sort of stuff used to be like a drug to me, i would just strive harder to get recognition, constructing the kind of pleading, patient argument that she cited as one reason she left. the first phone call after she dropped the bomb and drove away, she yelled over the line "this is hard for me, you know!" hard for her! and when i said "do you think i have reason to be upset?" the answer was "... .yeah." i had almost to beg her to recognize that somebody else's life was blown up, and not just somebody of course but the person she chose to marry. now i understand the BPD dynamic, the closer they feel to you the more they are driven to devalue you, but that doesn't take away the pain of the memory.

[Turkish]

that's truly infuriating. you handled it well, turkish, by not pursuing it.

unfortunately that sort of stuff used to be like a drug to me, i would just strive harder to get recognition, constructing the kind of pleading, patient argument that she cited as one reason she left. the first phone call after she dropped the bomb and drove away, she yelled over the line "this is hard for me, you know!" hard for her!

She said that to me two weeks ago when she wanted to go on a "date" that was not a date. She said we could just go out as friends and parents, as if 6 years, two kids and all of the BS meant nothing and could be swept under the rug. I kind of broke down... .then she did, and said the exact same thing you quoted above. She started crying and I broke my NT rule, went over and hugged her. The thing was that I actually got something close to an actual apology for the affair, which I recognized and took. Then she talked about it as her "mistake" as if she forgot to pick up milk, or missed an appointment. Unbelievable.

Her ability to exhibit true empathy goes hand in hand with her inability to judge when people are subtly deceiving her (something I've pointed out, and she acknowledges). The opportunity will probably come up to point out her lack of real empathy. And I will. Though nice, sweet and co-dependently serving on the outside, I long suspected the lack of empathy at her core for a long time, well before this blew up in my face.

If it weren't for the kids, I would never, ever want to see or contact this woman again. Of course, if it weren't for them, our relationship wouldn't have lasted as long either. My sadness isn't about losing her at this point, it's about losing the "family" which I guess is somewhat of an idealization on my part.

[Noise]

Same here turkish. Because of the hectic time when having babies you dont Pay much attention to your relationship as you should. And then its too late. I accepted it because I didnt want too lose my family. Stupid because I was really unhappy for  3 out of the 7 years (And the other years were such a whirlwind). My ex became pregnant "by accident" after 6 months together. After that she had me. I am really happy I got these amazing children but boy what was I stupid. I was 22 at the time so what do you know right?

[Waifed]

that's truly infuriating. you handled it well, turkish, by not pursuing it.

unfortunately that sort of stuff used to be like a drug to me, i would just strive harder to get recognition, constructing the kind of pleading, patient argument that she cited as one reason she left. the first phone call after she dropped the bomb and drove away, she yelled over the line "this is hard for me, you know!" hard for her!

She said that to me two weeks ago when she wanted to go on a "date" that was not a date. She said we could just go out as friends and parents, as if 6 years, two kids and all of the BS meant nothing and could be swept under the rug. I kind of broke down... .then she did, and said the exact same thing you quoted above. She started crying and I broke my NT rule, went over and hugged her. The thing was that I actually got something close to an actual apology for the affair, which I recognized and took. Then she talked about it as her "mistake" as if she forgot to pick up milk, or missed an appointment. Unbelievable.

Her ability to exhibit true empathy goes hand in hand with her inability to judge when people are subtly deceiving her (something I've pointed out, and she acknowledges). The opportunity will probably come up to point out her lack of real empathy. And I will. Though nice, sweet and co-dependently serving on the outside, I long suspected the lack of empathy at her core for a long time, well before this blew up in my face.

If it weren't for the kids, I would never, ever want to see or contact this woman again. Of course, if it weren't for them, our relationship wouldn't have lasted as long either. My sadness isn't about losing her at this point, it's about losing the "family" which I guess is somewhat of an idealization on my part.

I feel your pain.  My ex (only gf of 3 years and not wife of 6 years) asked me to stop tormenting her just 2 days after I caught her.  I was shocked and though we were together for another month (of great sex) it was the final dagger in my back.  I knew it was time to move on no matter how painful of a future I saw coming.  It is amazing how clueless and heartless they can seem at certain times.  Once boy toy has had his fun he will discard her and she will be left lost an alone.  THAT IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM ANYMORE!  KEEP MOVING FORWARD TO A BETTER LIFE FOR YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN.

I think you will not truly be able to begin the healing process until she is ejected from the house.  Her toxicity is just pouring salt on a wide open wound and you are stuck between a rock and a hard place until you can distance yourself from her.  I saw your post yesterday after you met with your lawyer.  It sounds like you got yourself a good one.   Keep fighting the good fight for yourself and your kids.  We will all be able to look back at these relationships as life learning experiences assuming we do the work we need to do on ourselves. 

[Turkish]

Same here turkish. Because of the hectic time when having babies you dont Pay much attention to your relationship as you should. And then its too late. I accepted it because I didnt want too lose my family. Stupid because I was really unhappy for  3 out of the 7 years (And the other years were such a whirlwind). My ex became pregnant "by accident" after 6 months together. After that she had me. I am really happy I got these amazing children but boy what was I stupid. I was 22 at the time so what do you know right?

I was 39 when we had our S(now)3. But then I had never had this "serious" a relationship, since I was kind of a hermit for a long time. So you can imagine how stupid I feel :^|

[Lady31]

Waifed is right I think in that you won't really be able to start healing until she's out of the house.  My exh wanted a divorce SEVERAL times during our 5 year marriage, a few of them seemed pretty serious and we were separated in the house, discussing how to dissolve things, etc.  It was a totally different ball game once I actually moved out.

Also - she knows EXACTLY what you are upset about.  She is not oblivious.  She is merely acting that way to get you to show/say how you are feeling because it soothes and validates her and makes her feel better to see that you still care about her and that gives her worth.  It's a manipulative way of getting comfort, but that is what she is doing - and she is getting it.

I stopped validating my exh that way.  When I couldn't hide that I was upset and he would ask things, I would make comments like "Of course I am upset, I never thought these things would happen in our marriage and it has shown me this is not what I thought it was at all and I need to go on with my life."

Boy - that got his feathers ruffled.  I know, some here may say to coddle them a little more/that makes him feel his shame.  Well, I'M not going to own his shame and abuse.  He NEEDS to.  I didn't go out of my way to be cruel to him but I also didn't let him play games or down play the things he did.

Then they freak out.  When he knew I was strong enough to walk out that door and though upset, I SAW HIM FOR WHO HE WAS and wouldn't play his little games and he wasn't getting anymore soothing from me - he started to really unravel.  I also noticed when you do this they try to move TOWARD you some, to try to get you back on the hook.

NOPE. Say goodnight to the bad guy.

[Turkish]

Waifed is right I think in that you won't really be able to start healing until she's out of the house.  My exh wanted a divorce SEVERAL times during our 5 year marriage, a few of them seemed pretty serious and we were separated in the house, discussing how to dissolve things, etc.  It was a totally different ball game once I actually moved out.

Also - she knows EXACTLY what you are upset about.  She is not oblivious.  She is merely acting that way to get you to show/say how you are feeling because it soothes and validates her and makes her feel better to see that you still care about her and that gives her worth.  It's a manipulative way of getting comfort, but that is what she is doing - and she is getting it.

I stopped validating my exh that way.  When I couldn't hide that I was upset and he would ask things, I would make comments like "Of course I am upset, I never thought these things would happen in our marriage and it has shown me this is not what I thought it was at all and I need to go on with my life."

Boy - that got his feathers ruffled.  I know, some here may say to coddle them a little more/that makes him feel his shame.  Well, I'M not going to own his shame and abuse.  He NEEDS to.  I didn't go out of my way to be cruel to him but I also didn't let him play games or down play the things he did.

Then they freak out.  When he knew I was strong enough to walk out that door and though upset, I SAW HIM FOR WHO HE WAS and wouldn't play his little games and he wasn't getting anymore soothing from me - he started to really unravel.  I also noticed when you do this they try to move TOWARD you some, to try to get you back on the hook.

NOPE. Say goodnight to the bad guy.

Thanks, Lady. That is interesting... .about them getting validation and soothing by seeing us upset... .about them. And yes, I know she knows darn well what I am upset about, which bugs me even more when she starts asking, which is why I told her I knew that she was going to say that, and then I walked away.

But I see through the mask... .a precarious mask sitting atop a hurricane and a storm with a vast emptiness at its core. It makes me be even less attracted to her, though I still am... .a little (the shallow part of me, and that part that remembers the idealization, as painful as it is for me to recall).

She just posted some Buddhist thing on FB about unhappy people focusing on the unhappy things in life, and that is what makes them unhappy. Soothing for her, and a dig at me, if even unconsciously. Mutual kid photos or no, de-friending and blocking her soon.

[ThanksForPlaying]

unfortunately that sort of stuff used to be like a drug to me, i would just strive harder to get recognition, constructing the kind of pleading, patient argument that she cited as one reason she left.

I used patient, logical arguments and got the same reaction - she even cited these as a reason for leaving, or at least her unhappiness.  When you walk through the logic, it usually boils down to a no-win situation they have created. For example "I hate living in this neighborhood, but I don't want to move anywhere else" - that's the essence of BPD.  After the no-win situation is exposed, it leads to a lot of real pain and frustration for them.  They just aren't comfortable in their own existence.  Point out too many of these, and they start to blame you for the pain, then paint you black.

[musicfan42]

Her ability to exhibit true empathy goes hand in hand with her inability to judge when people are subtly deceiving her (something I've pointed out, and she acknowledges).

I did a double-take when I read this part because it's something I've also experienced!

[GreenMango]

Turkish it has to be beyond difficult to live with her while trying to seperate Nd detach. 

Im sorry I haven't read all your posts for the whole background but how much longer in this situation it doesn't seem to be allowing you to heal?

[Ironmanrises]

I went out to a men's thing last night (Bible study/fellowship). my pwBPDex (who's still living in my house, trying to move out, and may or may not be in contact with her kid-lover) took care of our D1, S3, though by the time I got home, she still had our son up, about an hour past his bedtime.

I was making something to eat. She came in and shared off my plate (I gave her permission, it was a long running joke that it drove me nuts, not really anymore). She asked me how it went. I said that I was severely depressed the whole day, but about halfway through, I felt better. Told her about some of the things they were talking about. She asked, "why were you depressed?" I looked at her and said, "I almost didn't throw that out there, because I knew you would say exactly that. But are you kidding me?" and I threw up my hands and motioned around us. She just looked at me. I got up thereafter, looked at her and said, "you have a great talent for understating things," whereafter she said, "I do?" but left it at that, and walked out. Later, we interacted as parents due to our D1 being sick, but that was it. I left in the am darkness before anyone got up.

I can't wait to be away from this woman!

The vengeful spirit part of me can't wait to start gaslighting her, too. Because looking back, I found that I could... .and probably can very easily. Easy to do in someone with no clear identity, who is ever anxious about what others think of her. Almost in a Hannibal Lecter type of way, I could do it. No, she's the mother of our children... .need to keep it in my head.,

In bold.

That lack of empathy... .

That she exhibited... .

Is so hurtful.

I can imagine... .

How mind warping... .

Deflating... .

And excruciating... .

That must have felt like.

Almost like... .

She can't even hear you... .

Yet hears you... .

Just fine... .

Except of course... .

For the huge... .

Disconnect... .

In between that.

Between what you said... .

And what she heard... .

And what was registered... .

In her thought processes.

It was the same... .

For me... .

When devaluation started.

She would launch missiles... .

At me... .

I would... .

Retreat... .

Attempting to shoot down the missiles... .

And then would ask me... .

"Why don't you want to have sex with me... .?"

I would reply:

":)id you not just hear... .

What you said to me... .?"

She would get naked... .

Walk to the shower... .

And say... .

"Ironmanfalls... .

Come take a shower with me... ."

I would be standing there... .

Like... .

Wow... .

She does not hear me... .

At all.

A non would have recognized... .

My distress... .

A pwBPD... .

Like my ex... .

Just lights and clockwork... .

Inside.

That is what... .

The lack of empathy... .

Felt like.

Hang in there Turkish.

[Turkish]

Turkish it has to be beyond difficult to live with her while trying to seperate Nd detach.  

Im sorry I haven't read all your posts for the whole background but how much longer in this situation it doesn't seem to be allowing you to heal?

6 years, not married... .was engaged for most of that time. But I knew if I ever pulled that trigger, the shot would have gone off sooner, due to her extreme views against marriage (even though she said she wanted to with me... .sometimes). S3, D1. Still living in my home. She denies that I was providing for her... .but interestingly, two months later, she can't afford to move out even though I haven't charged her "rent" since July! Submarined my savings due to buying her/family a $37K SUV, two weeks later, "I can't do this, I don't love you anymore." A few weeks later, I find out about the affair. Traded the SUV in for a big loss, even though I put a lot of money down on it. Got her a cheaper car... .still more than she deserved, but it's a hybrid. I put $1K down on that since the payments wouldn't have been less than the other loan. She's put all sorts of affordable housing apps out. She kept up the affair, emotionally, lied to me about it a month ago, at which point I said, Done! No big fights since then. I put down NC/NT (no contact, no touching), though I did violate that twice. Put that boundary back. Tired of the ongoing emotional abuse.

Tired of her liking stupid stuff on FB where it makes it out like I hurt her! I actually just blocked her. If she doesn't like it, oh well.

Saw a lawyer last week, who guess the BPD after only 5 mins of me talking (I hadn't even gotten to the affair part, which is irrelevant legally). Another validation that I'm not crazy (and especially thanks to you all here!). Unfortunately, my state guidelines on child support will severely impact me to not live on much each month. I have to keep the house, since with the tax break (for now since I'm on the front end of the mortgage), it would be about the equivalent of living in a studio, or a crappy 1 bedroom apt. Comtemplating cashing out a large chunk of my retirement (taking the tax hit) to pay down the principal on my home and doing a re-fi to lower the payments by a lot. Once the papers get drawn up, I will present them. They are more than fair, equitable for her (which I don;'t care about), but it will enable her to part time live somewhere better with the kids when she has them. With the extra money, she may not have to wait for affordable housing... .or can move and apply for something else later.

Talked to one of her siblings I can trust last night. Told him some things vis-a-vis the kids (pwBPDex's unacceptable behavior towards S3). He was very concerned... .oh, there is so much I am holding back from her family! But I don't feel bad in the least. They love our kids and will stand by them. Pretty sure her older bro has BPD, too, more obviously. Her sister shows some traits, but not the quiet or not so quiet raging in public like mine does. In talking some things to the lawyer, she said, "oh, sounds like her father has it too." Thinking about a lot of things my pwBPDex has told me over the years, it makes sense... .and from a genetic perspective, too.

Wow. How in the heck did I end up here?

[Turkish]

I was making something to eat. She came in and shared off my plate (I gave her permission, it was a long running joke that it drove me nuts, not really anymore). She asked me how it went. I said that I was severely depressed the whole day, but about halfway through, I felt better. Told her about some of the things they were talking about. She asked, "why were you depressed?" I looked at her and said, "I almost didn't throw that out there, because I knew you would say exactly that. But are you kidding me?" and I threw up my hands and motioned around us. She just looked at me. I got up thereafter, looked at her and said, "you have a great talent for understating things," whereafter she said, "I do?" but left it at that, and walked out. Later, we interacted as parents due to our D1 being sick, but that was it. I left in the am darkness before anyone got up.

I can't wait to be away from this woman!

The vengeful spirit part of me can't wait to start gaslighting her, too. Because looking back, I found that I could... .and probably can very easily. Easy to do in someone with no clear identity, who is ever anxious about what others think of her. Almost in a Hannibal Lecter type of way, I could do it. No, she's the mother of our children... .need to keep it in my head.,

In bold.

That lack of empathy... .

That she exhibited... .

Is so hurtful.

I can imagine... .

How mind warping... .

Deflating... .

And excruciating... .

She's "proving" to me that she can "move on" especially based on the fact that she said that in her journal. I knew what she would say ahead of time, but I threw it out there anyway. Felt less depressed this morning. It will come and go... .be bad for a week or two when she moves out. I will both love and hate that day. Knowing her and the stress, she will probably rage a bit, based on what she did when we moved in (even one of her brothers commented on it that time... .she just can't help herself). I am preparing myself. But now, I know I don't have to take it like I did last time. I am worth more than that.