Is he a liar?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Good morning all

I have a question, when I first met my now exBPDbf, he was very hot on the pair of us being completely honest with each other even if it may hurt,( to the point of telling me how to spot a liar with the eye movement!) and throughout the r/s he was quite brutally honest with me.  This I thought was a good thing as I found that I trusted him and believed everything he said. So naturally he told me of the two times he cheated on me, once because i " shouted"at him in his flat which I didn't, and the other time was after dumping me again, and me being blissfully unaware of this illness at the time. I decided to go out with some friends for a drink (like you do when dumped) for this he then slept with another woman?.

So my question is this... .has he lied the whole time or are they capable of being too honest?

Any thoughts would be very helpful as I feel like I am going mad 

[Oracle]

Good morning all

I have a question, when I first met my now exBPDbf, he was very hot on the pair of us being completely honest with each other even if it may hurt,( to the point of telling me how to spot a liar with the eye movement!) and throughout the r/s he was quite brutally honest with me.  This I thought was a good thing as I found that I trusted him and believed everything he said. So naturally he told me of the two times he cheated on me, once because i " shouted"at him in his flat which I didn't, and the other time was after dumping me again, and me being blissfully unaware of this illness at the time. I decided to go out with some friends for a drink (like you do when dumped) for this he then slept with another woman?.

So my question is this... .has he lied the whole time or are they capable of being too honest?

Any thoughts would be very helpful as I feel like I am going mad 

[Lady31]

Sometimes we can get so caught up in figuring out their chaos we loose sight of what's clear as day.

The man has admitted to cheating on you twice.  I know it may hurt if there is more you don't know about, and you struggle with believing things he told you in the past, was your whole relationship a lie, etc... .

However - there are a few things that are clear.  He has cheated on you twice!  And his excuses are no where near acceptable.  Short of rape, there are no excuses acceptable.

At this point I would think that this alone is enough to hang your hat on.  The man cheated, and he excuses his despicable behavior by blaming you.  This is who he is and what he is capable of, and what he will do in the future the next time he feels justified.

Over. Done.  You are better than this. Sometimes you don't have to understand everything or know everything.  When you have seen enough of their crap to give you a pretty good picture of who they are, you just go with that and start to heal and move on.

I am so sorry you are hurting.  It takes a lot of work to process that kind of betrayal.    to you Oracle.

[Learning_curve74]

Oracle, so sorry to hear what your exbf did. You must feel awfully hurt. You deserve a big hug. 

While it's not fair to paint all pwBPD with the same paintbrush, I think in general they treat their feelings as fact and can end up lying to us and themselves to avoid being the "bad guy". Or maybe sometimes the lies are just a convenient way to get them what they want.

Early on, my exBPDgf had a talk with me and said that communication was vitally important, that we should be honest and tell the truth always because how can anybody have a relationship together without that? And she is often honest about some not so flattering things. But she often is brutally honest about something that seems bad, and in hindsight that makes people trust her so she can get away with a lot of other lies. For example, if I tell you that I'm a drug addict and I'm not proud of it, then that is admitting something pretty shameful to you, and you might take me for an honest person; then I can cheat on you behind your back because you'll never suspect me of being a dishonest person. 

I can't say anything about your exBPDbf, but I now know that my exBPDgf lied a LOT from the beginning. I still have issues forgiving her for that. I don't hate her, but there are some times that I wish I could. 

[Oracle]

Thankyou for your words and your 

You know what I cannot believe the most, I forgave him for cheating... .why? I'm not that type of person normally.  How has he made me feel/put up with this, It's like I have lost all control of my beliefs.  Why am I pining for this man? Why am I so weak?

[Aussie0zborn]

I agree with both replies above. The "lets be honest" routine is designed to give you a false sense of confidence in that person and it is then manipulated in the way Lurning Curve describes - ie : trusting that they will tell you everything but its just a cover for the manipulation which inevitably follows. 

So, yes I would say they can be too honest so as to be able to lie later. The part about being too honest is, I would say, part of the "sh!t test" and once you pass that test the ground is set for the lies that form the manipulation, which is very important to them. Think about that for a minute and you might very well  relate many instances that fit this pattern.

You are not weak - you're normal. Take your time to heal. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

[KE151]

Him saying "Let's be honest" = words (which he knew you'd probably like to hear)

Him cheating on you = action.

I think we all know which of the above defines reality.

You don't NEED to know more of his lies. He doesn't deserve the energy and emotions you pour into ruminating about him. He's emotionally disabled and not capable of anything better. Good luck, stay strong.

[laelle]

I agree with both replies above. The "lets be honest" routine is designed to give you a false sense of confidence in that person and it is then manipulated in the way Lurning Curve describes - ie : trusting that they will tell you everything but its just a cover for the manipulation which inevitably follows.  

THIS!  

My ex admitted as much when he spoke of his relationship with his exgf.  He knows what and why he does it.  You were being Gaslit and it happens to the best of us.

Brainwashing... .

[babyducks]

While it's not fair to paint all pwBPD with the same paintbrush, I think in general they treat their feelings as fact and can end up lying to us and themselves to avoid being the "bad guy".

I am with learning curve on this one.  My experience was that my EX's feelings were so intense and volatile that she created scenarios around them so that the 'facts' fit the feelings.  Often times her disordered thinking left her with 'facts' that were awe inspiring for their lack of rationality. 

It was all about not accepting responsibility for her actions,... for blaming me, life, the phases of the moon for the emotional turmoil she was in.  The honesty/lying thing was a pretty good indicator of emotional maturity.  Very much like a 2 or 3 year old who blames, throws tantrums and is incapable of self soothing. 

I personally think the question is he a liar is a little too simple.   If he is BPD his thinking is disordered, he perceives reality through the filter of his own emotions.  I personally think my pwBPD was very honest with me, with in the limitations of what she could deal with, and unfortunately coping with life was not something that came easily to her.   I was either the best person in the world or the worst person in the world and for her both of those things were very true.   She was very constant in her inconsistency.

babyducks

[bpdspell]

Unfortunately he's simply more than a liar; he's mentally ill.

Oracle,

I experienced this same kind of gas lighting confusion.

In the beginning my BPDex told me that he wasn't a cheater.    Said he didn't like cheating because it confused his penis. His words exactly.   .

Surprise surprise towards the end in devaluation he admitted to cheating on every woman he'd ever been with; some later than sooner depending on her ability to keep him satisfied.

Like I said; more than a liar. Mental illness is your answer.

So when I found out he cheated on me (and knowing nothing about personality disorders and narcissism) I was really stunned, hurt, and shocked because he seemed so open and honest about wanting to only be with me. We were infused and enmeshed 24/7 in the beginner days of idealization so for a while it was all about me until it became all about him.

When I started demanding more reciprocity and emotional maturity he'd gaslight, start trivial arguments, and little did I know tap into his cupboard of FBI level cheating tactics.

*Mind Blown*

He first cheated because I went out with a girlfriend to a birthday party. I got dressed up, looked pretty; so he decides to punish me for it.

Then he cheated because I wouldn't give him $50. I dumped him that next morning; only to cave in 2 weeks later.

Then as things began to unravel he decided to use his trump card of triangulation: his daughters mom (whom I slightly envied in the beginning) once he saw the ax about to drop. At that point he was full on disrespectful and displayed entitlement on the most arrogant narcissistic level I've ever experienced. *Mask Dropped*

Oracle. The cheating is no fault of your own. They blame others for their horrific behavior because they are full of shame and need to blame someone for their actions.

Once you understand BPD better you'll learn how to depersonalize your ex's behavior. They are emotional children stuck between the ages of 3-6 and they resort to low functioning coping mechanisms to soothe themselves just like a child would.

Lying (like most people who lie disordered or not) is a form of covering up shame.

I think they tell you their not liars to cover up their own shame and to paint themselves as the "good guy" due to their extreme black and white thinking. It's a form of self-manipulation, delusion and denial on their part to absolve themselves from accountability.

Spinning lies is what most people with BPD do. They have an unstable sense of self and it's a part of the illness.

Spell

[Bananas]

Spells post above is spot on.  So close to my own experience.

One time, in a "joke" context, I called my ex a liar.  I think I even said "liar liar pants on fire".  He hit the roof. 

":)ON'T EVER CALL ME A LIAR!"

The lies were of epic proportions.  Our entire relationship was built on a lie. 

  to you oracle, I know how hurtful this is.  To me, betrayal is worse than death, because death I can understand.  It took me a long time, but I have come to a place of acceptance.  I finally accept that my ex is mentally ill.  It does not excuse his behavior, but makes me want to have no part in it.  Hang in there, you will get through this.   

[Aw511]

my ex always expressed how much he HATED cheaters passionately. once he got so mad at his friend for being interested in my friend who has a boyfriend. (she lives in another state and would NEVER hook up with the guy anyway). i didn't even understand why he was so mad. i was like lighten up. shes hot and awesome why wouldn't he be interested in her? she's not doing anything wrong. in another instance he even went so far as to not talk to his other friend for two months who was engaged in an extramarital affair because of "the choices he is making"

then... .he lied to and eventually cheated on me.


WHAT? mind-blown.

[laelle]

my ex always expressed how much he HATED cheaters passionately. once he got so mad at his friend for being interested in my friend who has a boyfriend. (she lives in another state and would NEVER hook up with the guy anyway). i didn't even understand why he was so mad. i was like lighten up. shes hot and awesome why wouldn't he be interested in her? she's not doing anything wrong. in another instance he even went so far as to not talk to his other friend for two months who was engaged in an extramarital affair because of "the choices he is making"

then... .he lied to and eventually cheated on me.


WHAT? mind-blown.

Black /White  Idealization / Devaluation

[nyfit1]

My exgf was the same way. She would say over and over that the one thing she never does is lie and that she is extremely loyal. Then I caught her having emotional affairs online. She knew what to say to not exactly lie. When i called her on the online stuff she said over and over that she didn't contact them. Thing is though, she did create online dating profiles with the intention of meeting guys but did she technically contact a guy - no. They contacted her and she responded. She was very clever. She would tip me off to this way of omitting vital info by the way she would rage over things i said. She would scrutinize every word and say what did u mean by this word and this? She had a guilty conscience and I called her on it but she was always able to swing the crap around and make it my fault. She was very convincing. She claimed I misunderstood or or misinterpreted stuff. She called her own kids liars when they told me she was mixing anti depressants with alcohol. She said they are always trying to bring her down. So messed up.

One time I told her that I always want to know the truth even if she thinks it will hurt me. She's used that as an excuse for lying in the past. She went nuts over that request, got extremely defensive which I brought to her attention and then she said I was a liar. U just can't win. Only thing you can do is run like hell away from them.

[Aw511]

mine also said to me in the beginning, i am gonna be an ass from time to time (thats an understatement) but i will NEVER cheat on you.


riiiiight... .i think in most healthy relationships you don't actually have to say that, you just assume... .

[Oracle]

Oh wow

It's such a shock to know, I was so fooled, he swore blind he NEVER lied and NEVER cheated EVER! on anyone   From the moment I met him he told me that all his ex's cheated on him, which is why he has had so many relationships. Seems I will be asking this board lots of questions.

Thank you for responding

Oracle

[winston72]

Wow, Oracle!  This episode with your ex sounds really painful and traumatic.  It is traumatic.  Sexual infidelity is an acutely painful betrayal.  I was betrayed in this manner two years ago.  It put me into a kind of shock.  I was in shock emotional and in real physical pain.  The emotional shock led me to rationalize my pain and, while being fully conscious of it, deny its impact on me.  I think I could not process or accept the magnitude of the pain and loss so I…didn't!  I "forgave her."  I believe in forgiveness, I wanted to, but in retrospect I was afraid of my pain and anger and deeply afraid to "lose her."  Silly, right!  I was afraid I "might" lose the girl who was cheating on me.  Oh, the power of denial.

I am losing power and don't have a charger.  Will send now and write more later!

My heart goes out to you Oracle.  Thank you for posting.  It is helping me to read your posts and to respond.

[maxen]

oracle, that's a horrible thing to happen to you, i'm sorry to hear it.

he is a liar. infidelity is a lie, and telling you is only admitting that he lied. (my w was unfaithful, lied to arrange it, and then lied about lying about it. when i faced her with it, she shrugged. when i wept over it, she ran out of the room. she couldn't accept responsibility. we're getting divorced.)

it's a tough one, because BPDs really are emotionally disturbed, but the fallout is the same: the wreckage of others. i can't be generous about it.

i think babyducks' post describes it well:

While it's not fair to paint all pwBPD with the same paintbrush, I think in general they treat their feelings as fact and can end up lying to us and themselves to avoid being the "bad guy".

I am with learning curve on this one.  My experience was that my EX's feelings were so intense and volatile that she created scenarios around them so that the 'facts' fit the feelings.  Often times her disordered thinking left her with 'facts' that were awe inspiring for their lack of rationality. 

It was all about not accepting responsibility for her actions,... for blaming me, life, the phases of the moon for the emotional turmoil she was in.  The honesty/lying thing was a pretty good indicator of emotional maturity.  Very much like a 2 or 3 year old who blames, throws tantrums and is incapable of self soothing.