couples counseling - need advice.

[maxsterling]

I've agreed to go to couples counseling with my dBPDgf.   This, despite every piece of advice given me by counselors, online sources and friends that this is a bad idea when someone is not stable or exhibiting abusive behavior.   The warning I get is that the BPD/abusive person will try to manipulate the therapist and play the victim, further escalating the emotional abuse.  And, my girlfriend has definitely been unstable, and definitely exhibited abusive behavior.

For those of you that have gone through couples counseling with a pwBPD - do you have any advice for me or what to look out for or ways I should approach things?  I'm trying to be as open minded as possible, and approach with severe caution that this could be a disaster. 

A little background:  We have been dating since January, and due to circumstances in her life I offered to let her live with me.  I thought it would be temporary, but as it turns out she has now lived with me since March, with little desire by her to live independently.  She revealed before she moved in she has issues with depression, but I had no idea at the time the depth of her issues.  the reality:  she is seriously mentally ill.

After a few weeks of living together, things started going downhill, with her getting "triggered" by what most people would consider normal conversations.  She would scream, threaten to kill herself, throw things, and tried to open the car door while I was driving.  I've called the police on her once when she was hitting herself, started going to therapy for myself, and called crisis lines.  My therapist suggested within 30 minutes of my first appointment that she had BPD, and my girlfriend revealed that she had been diagnosed BPD years ago. 

Slowly she has revealed her background to me.  It's more than just "issues with depression".  She's been hospitalized for mental illness about 10 times.  She's been diagnosed BPD and bipolar, been through DBT, been on federal disability, attempted suicide twice, through drug rehabs for heroin, pretty much had a lifetime of self-destructive behavior from the time she was a teenager, almost up until the day she met me.  And at the beginning of September, she was hospitalized for suicidal thoughts for 10 days, was re-diagnosed as bipolar, and put on meds.  Since she was discharged, she went through an outpatient therapy program, has lost her job, and is still as depressed as anyone I have ever met. 

You may ask why I am still with her after all that - I see a good in her and a willingness to help herself, and I care about her very deeply.  We do have great times together, and I feel that we could be a great match, but only if she learns to control her emotions better.  But I have regularly thought about ways to end this peacefully, and have tried to break it off with her twice, only to reconcile after she made promises to get help.  But the reality is, the "help" doesn't seem to be helping, and I am losing patience.  I have set a soft timeline in the back of my head of the end of this year - I'm willing to be patient for a little while longer to see if things change with medication and therapy.  But there comes a point when I have to realize things won't improve, and take measures to preserve my life.  It would devastate me to have to end this, but it would obliterate her.  Right now she has no job, probably is not capable of working a job, has no money, and hardly anyone else to fall back on.  She would likely be on the street if I broke up with her, and I can almost guarantee she would attempt suicide or relapse on drugs. 

I'm willing to try the couples counseling, but I feel it may also a last gasp as I think after a few sessions it should be apparent what direction things will take.  Her outpatient program ended last week, and now she has no insurance, and no regular individual therapist.  It scares me that she will be going to couples without an individual therapist of her own.  I get the feeling that much of the reason she wants to do couples therapy is because she wants some kind of therapy, and this is the only way she can see a therapist right now. 

Any advice on this situation would be much appreciated.

[HoldingAHurricane]

My partner and I did couples therapy prior to him being diagnosed with a very uninformed quack and I attend his individual therapy now (post diagnosis) with an experienced psychologist when invited and if I think it would be valuable to me.

What I found was that his need for validation guided his behaviour in therapy at those times because he wants to present himself in a way which will please the therapist and get him praise. Generally I find this immensely frustrating and it takes a lot of awareness and effort to remain regulated and detached from the manipulation.

I listen and validate what he says. I make sure I never "testify on his behalf" by saying things like ... .from my point of view... ./it seems to me... ./it sounded to me like... .when I am talking about my reflections on him. I articulate my own feelings and experiences and be as genuine and present as I can to try and at least get something out of it myself.

One time it was particularly bad and I felt like I was in the room with a therapeutically programmed robot and it did get the better of me and I called it out as a dog and pony show. The therapist actually argued against me a little (which is his job and I am ok with that) but I stood by my call out. Later my dBPDh admitted he was being disingenuous to try to make it seem like I was the problem and I asked him to admit this to his therapist. He said he did and the therapist said it was good for his ego to know he could be flawed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

You have to figure out why you are going. I go to act in a way that is consistent with my values. I want to act in constructive and compassionate ways. I go so the therapist can check out the "other side of the story" if that is his intent and cluey therapists will do that from time to time. I know that is one of the reasons the therapists invites me sometimes and if it informs therapy them fine. I want to support healthful actions when he takes them of which therapy is one. I want to act in ways that are loving and kind. I want to have better communication between us and in that environment the therapist holds a space where we can have 2 way communication briefly.

From time to time, my partner suggests couples therapy and I say no. I won't participate in a process which requires maturity and life skills he doesn't have. It wouldn't be fair to either of us.

[havana]

My wife & I went. Her opening salvo was, "he smokes cigars, drinks beer & urinates outside." We then agreed to make some rules for behavior. She broke them as soon as we got in the parking lot.

[HopefulDad]

At least go to couples counseling with a CBT.  They will likely be able to recognize BPD symptoms and not get manipulated by your pwBPD.

[eyvindr]

My wife & I went. Her opening salvo was, "he smokes cigars, drinks beer & urinates outside." We then agreed to make some rules for behavior. She broke them as soon as we got in the parking lot.

LOL! I'm sorry -- it is very much like this. I just made me laugh. Dark humor, I guess.

(and, are they Havanas, I would surmise?)

In seriousness -- I tried the couples counseling route with my ex, too. My ex would only agree to counseling under two conditions:

• Either we go together, and I agree to her characterization that I contribute to or cause at least half of all of the problems in our r-ship, or



• She would see someone once, after some particularly horrible  emotional argument during which I allowed her to completely exhaust me of any patience or hope for a future together that didn't involve regular repeating episodes of exactly what caused her to agree to go to a therapist.

Both times we went together, we never made it past 3 sessions. In both cases, her behavior in b/t sessions remained the same -- leaving me feeling (wrongly or rightly, I don't know) that she wasn't at all serious about applying anything covered in our sessions to her behavior -- only to use the lessons as new tools to control mine, or to point out what I'm doing to contribute to problems. Or she'd have schedule conflicts, or not claim to not have the money for the session (she refused to use her health insurance, b/c she maintained that her employer would "find out" and fire her for it -- HIPPA and labor regulations be damned!)

I will admit that the latter was one of the last straws -- and that my own stubbornness contributed to the end. I could have easily covered the cost for the sessions -- but I refused to, b/c it was something we were supposed to do together, as partners -- and we'd made that agreement. I paid for everything else in the relationship -- dinners out, lunches, tickets to events, gas for driving all over the place -- even a week-long vacation to New York city -- airfare, food -- everything. She was generous with gifts at Christmas and on my birthday, and paid for an occasional lunch. She received a TON of financial help from her father for things like rent, utilities, car insurance -- and still managed to have about a hundred bucks to spend on unnecessary toys for her daughter EVERY Sunday. But she couldn't afford counseling. It stung, actually. I felt like it was a clear indication of where her priorities were -- and as much as she ranted and raged about how important our relationship was, she was comfortable avoiding the one thing that possibly could have helped us make it.

[momtara]

It all depends on what you want to get out of it.  If you don't mind her letting off steam and gtting therapy that way, then go for it.  The therapist may be really diplomatic and a pushover and be very tiptoe-y and help in very very small steps.  Or she/he may tell your gf things she doesn't want to hear, and trigger her.  Depends on what you want - the truth, whatever works, help, neither, help for just her, etc.

Both therapists I ended up choosing were really passive and failed to diagnose hubby's obvious BPD, which he displayed during our sessions.  But I would bring up really obvious problems that they would try to solve, so in small steps, they helped.  They also did buy some of his lies.  A more aggressive therapist might have pushed us to confront our problems sooner, which could have either caused the end of the relationship or maybe would havce helped in the longterm.  Now we're getting a divorce because he ended up having a real meltdown one weekend and I had to get a restraining order.  So maybe if I had looked for a tougher therapist and been more honest instead of diplomatic, it might have saved us.  But my husband isn't nearly as mentally ill as your gf.  He's just manipulative and verbally abusive.

Soo it all depends on whether you want to contain the situation, get tough love help, or something else.

So as far as advice - I guess think of a few things you really want to accomplish in there, and stick to those.  You want to anticipate possible reactions from her and be prepared with responses.  In 45 minutes you can't get to everything.  So go in with a mission.

[Proud_Dad]

My experience lasted all of 3-4 sessions. We agrees to go to cunseling and I allowed her to choose who to see as I was paying cash out of pocket. The first couple of visits were not very productive from my POV, they just turned into modifired bhit sessions about all my flaws as a human being. After the counselor got a taste of her attitude and complete lack of self reflection she began to dig a bit deeper. At the mere mention of the possibility that my uBPD finace has any sort of resopnsibilty for where we were in the relationship my uBPD went straigh into rage at the counselor. After about 5 minutes of screaming, the counselor just gave me a look that said to me "good luck buddy". My fiance sttod up, flipped her off and told her to go f*** herself. She stormed out of the room and has not entertained the possibility of returning to any sort of counseling or therap since. I guess as soon as the attentions swiched from me being the root of all that is evil in this world to her maybe having a part in her own feelings... .THE END.

[eyvindr]

That's awful, ProudDad. I'm sorry to hear it. Few things are worse than deciding to do what you feel you must to to salvage a relationship with someone you love, who loves you, only to watch the whole experience turn into yet another opportunity to feel yourself being manipulated. At least you have the memory of some validation from the counselor -- I didn't even get that far.

[Proud_Dad]

eyvindr, ya, I don't know if I would have been better off not seeing what could have been though. I got a taste of having my concerns confirmed and then had it torn out of my hands. Now the whole counseling issue is used against me (shocking). IM sorry you had similar results, it suck when that door is closed and a lock thrown over the bars.

[eyvindr]

Yeah. I can relate to what you're saying, though, about being better off. For me, I am still glad I attempted it -- one more element of the r-ship I can have peace with, and not be haunted by the nagging "what if's". At least I know I tried it, gave it a chance -- I can sleep well, knowing I didn't blow off some obvious approach to making things work.

I do wonder what our partners think -- given that they, too, had the same chance, and either consciously or unconsciously squandered it.

eyvindr, ya, I don't know if I would have been better off not seeing what could have been though. I got a taste of having my concerns confirmed and then had it torn out of my hands. Now the whole counseling issue is used against me (shocking). IM sorry you had similar results, it suck when that door is closed and a lock thrown over the bars.

[momtara]

The important thing is, you tried.

Also, a neutral person rejected her assertions.  That has to count for something in the back of her mind.

[Inside]

At around a year into my now 2.5 relationship with uBPDgf (and after recycle #3) she insisted we attend couples counseling.  :)idn’t make sense to me…  but I had an employee assistance program that allowed for 6 one hour sessions for ‘free.’  I had no understanding of BPD and that never got brought up during the sessions.  

I basically recall her sitting there ‘playing innocent,’ or parsing the trivial events that led to previous breakups.  When gf was encouraged to speak, she played sweet & innocent and gave away very little about herself.  I, wanting to get ‘my money’ and efforts worth, opened up totally; I had nothing to hide and actually enjoyed the conversations with the counselor, a woman a bit older than myself.  

The only time I remember the counselor honing in on my gf was when I’d mentioned, among her many and constant activities, attending an anger management class.  GF’s ‘excuse’ was that it was to better relate to her son … problem was, her son was long gone and living with his dad in another state…  These were her anger issues.  But, she played it cool, I suspect hoping the focus would shift or remain on me, and I let it, apparently the only one willing to talk.

We’d begun car pooling to the sessions, which soon ended in taking separate cars as she’d pick her fights immediately after the session…  I had no idea what we were attempting to accomplish, but strangely enough, toward the end of these (every two weeks), I discovered the BPD on my own, through a ‘compatibility test’ in a book on stress I’d been reading.  Crap – searching online brought me to the chilling realization that my gf had BPD.  As I ordered a book and read all I could find on the subject, partially relieved that this crazy crap was finally ‘making sense’ - though heart sick over the apparent ramifications … I decided to keep it to myself during the last two counseling sessions…

Before our last, gf asked what I felt we’d achieved during the sessions and I told her I was afraid the larger problems had not been touched.  She appears a classic case of Higher-functioning BPD, thus ‘smart’ enough to hide yet still programmed to deny.  After we inevitably fell apart (again), when reconnecting, I gently and sincerely described to her what I’d learned about BPD.  Instant denial; from a ‘sweet’ make up session to just short of rage.  “It’s just a label” she ranted – “and I will not be labeled!”  … I’d gotten the feeling she was familiar with BPD when recounting behaviors she’d accuse ‘me’ of (as though they were her ultimate putdown) and numerous references to BPD behaviors…

Couples counseling…  It may have been to acquire some ‘free advice’ with me in tow, and that would have been great, had she opened up.  It may have been to feed some drama (I feel she has a Histrionic co morbid condition) among friends …who knows?  I actually emailed the counselor regarding what I’d learned … (small town) and she got back to me, asking that I keep her informed.  

Max… yours has a more serious history than what I know of mine and it sounds like a plea for help and a way to hang in there with you.  I can so relate to your pain and feelings of concern.  Actually – I copied and emailed (though she’s in the next room ;-) your lead-in post to my 19 year old daughter…  I’ve read a lot around here, but thought the description of your feelings and history with your BPDgf is a prime example of what it’s like to love, live, and lose them…  Glad you posted, stay strong ~ your heart’s in the right place

[hurtbyboderline]

My exBPDGF & I started couples therapy after dating for just under a year. A close friend of mine made an interesting comment; "If you've been dating less than a year & it's not working out you break up. You don't get therapy"... .Anyway, just sharing that... .Oh my ex & I went to therapy for just under a year. I'd talk to the therapist for 30 minutes, she'd talk for 30 & then we'd both go in together for 30 (at $165 a visit). One of my main complaints was she wouldn't stop calling/texting one of her ex's. (the one that I caught her cheating on me with after we were together for 2 months). So after almost a year of therapy I walked out after my 30 min's with the therapist to tell her it was time for her 30 min's. What was she doing? Talking to her ex on the phone... .I ended the therapy that day... .  1 1/2 hours a week $165 a visit for a year with a round trip drive of 1 1/2 hours to get there & this is the result? If I EVER date anyone again who shows BPD traits I will run so fast it'll set track records... .But, good luck in your therapy... .  zzz

[KE151]

What was she doing? Talking to her ex on the phone... .I ended the therapy that day... .  1 1/2 hours a week $165 a visit for a year with a round trip drive of 1 1/2 hours to get there & this is the result?

This is just so bizarre its plain hilarious. They have no clue whatsoever, do they. For a BPD, the recycling of an ex is the pressure release valve or a therapy session in itself... .

[hergestridge]

Not couples counceling, but my wife started going to therapy sessions related to problems she was having related to her role as a mother of our three year old daughter. After a couple sessions she invited me to come along and it became a sort of couples counceling with the focus on parenting. The T has DBT competence.

It's not working out for a couple of reasons. My wife is not prepared to put the work into it that it takes. When the T or the doc points out how much she has to change she just shuts down. She has ADHD too and she can't seem to concentrate through long talks and therapy sessions. She's like that at home too.

My wife's focus in the sessions seems to be answer the questions "right" and to make the T happy so that the whole therapy thing can be over with as soon as possible. I think she feel trapped in a corner.

And let me tell you this - everything of value that comes up in these sessions - every real problem that comes up for discussion - is brought up by me after having been brushed aside or having been ommited from the overall narrative by my wife. She asked for therapy and counseling and when she's there she doesn't want to talk about her own problems at all apart from a couple things that she "needed advice" with.

So I think that

a/ couples counceling may not work very good with BPD people

b/ BPD people may benefit from a having a spouse/relative present in therapy, because they lie and manipulate their way out of therapy

[slimmiller]

Went to couples counseling at the end of my RS with my exBPD when she had already been sleeping with my replacement. Two sessions and she was done. She could not live with who I had dated before we had met and that was the only 'problem' we had. Counselor had no idea about BPD and I even discussed it with her in later solo sessions, she gave me the deer in the headlights look about it

Fast forward to a year later, she made a half hearted attempt at counseling again on her own (when she discovered her internet 'soulmate' was cheating on her).

My conclusion, they wont go to counseling for the same reason a liar wont take a lie detector test. They know they are guilty and only they can change and thats not in the realm of their reality so they shirk it and avoid the chance of taking any responsibility for any of their actions and instead take the easy route and blame the nons

[maxsterling]

Thank you everyone for your replies. They were all very helpful.  Our first session is this afternoon, and while I am trying to be open minded and realize I have no control over the outcome, I still have anxiety.  I'll keep you posted what happens.

[maxsterling]

An update here-

There was a huge red flag before we even went in - she called me about an hour prior to the appointment and was concerned about being "ganged up on", about me having an individual counselor that I could potentially go to and talk about the couples session with and "keep secrets" from her.  I wasn't sure if this was just her extreme anxiety speaking, or a means of trying to control my personal emotional resources.

I met her outside the office, and I was sure to give her a hug and smile, and she reciprocated.  Once in the office, I was sure to hold her hand and stay close so that she felt comfortable.  In part, I wanted to see if the previous discussion on the phone was just her anxiety or if she really had something more sinister circulating in her brain.

This therapist is only a master's level therapist.  I wanted my girlfriend to choose the therapist just so she could not somehow throw that back in my face as me being controlling. But, she originally got upset that I asked her to choose saying that I was dumping responsibilities on her, so I wound up choosing the therapist.  I chose this particular one because her background is in behavioral therapy, abuse, and substance abuse, both of which my girlfriend needs help with.

And remarkably, the session went well.  Better than I expected, for sure.  I took more of a "backseat, testing" kind of approach at first, just to see if my girlfriend would bring up things on her own.  That means I didn't come out and immediately mention the serious issues we were having, because I wanted to see if she would bring them up on her own, and to see how and under what context she would bring them up.

She was very upfront.  She mentioned that there had been arguments.  She admitted she hit me.  She admitted she says horribly mean stuff to me when she is raging.  She admitted she was in the hospital, on medications, has bipolar disorder, PTSD, and a history of drug abuse.  The one thing she didn't mention is the borderline personality disorder, but I think she has learned to not mention that to therapists early on because of its negative reputation. But she did mention she has been through DBT before, and I think any trained therapist would recognize that likely means she has been diagnosed with a personality disorder. 

And she didn't really blame me for any of it.  She said that this is by far the best relationship she has ever had, and she also mentioned that she has treated previous partners much, much worse.  About the only "blame" she passed along was that certain behaviors of mine trigger her, and that she said that I "held her down" during one argument, to which I explained I "bear hugged" her to keep her from being able to hit me. 

Frankly, I am surprised she volunteered this information.  That gives me hope that this may be an appropriate forum for us to discuss things rationally.  All in all, I can say this visit was worthwhile and productive.

But - afterwards I realized that the issues still remain.  She started talking again about having a baby.  First of all, unless she is mentally stable - that is a BAD idea.  But of course, she has that biological clock.  And right now, I see no progress on her mental stability.  Her mind still races with negative thoughts, and she even admits she thinks she is getting worse.  Second, I can neither financially or emotionally support a child the way it stands right now.  I feel like I am already caretaking a child.  I do 95% of housework, she can't do anything without me, I am responsible for 99.9% of household expenses, and am falling into a little more debt right now.  And I think conceiving a child while the mother is being supported by food stamps and disability is ethically irresponsible.

But of course I can't say that to her right now without an enormous meltdown.  So I have to deflect and sidestep, and hope that we can discuss it rationally at some point - maybe in therapy.

But she brought it up because she has a Dr appointment tomorrow, and was going to ask the doctor about stopping her lithium just to see if she needs it in case we want to have a child.  BAD BAD IDEA.    She once told me the last time she stopped taking her lithium, she tried to kill herself shortly thereafter.  I told her that she needs to figure out what combination of drugs work for her first before she talks about stopping any drugs, and right now she is still very depressed.  She asked why I felt that way, and I said because she needs to know what med combo works so that way after she has a baby they know what to give her already. Of course, that was me deflecting, because in my opinion she should not even consider taking care of a child until she is happy.

The next appointment is next thursday.  I have my fingers crossed.

[HopefulDad]

Sounds like on the therapy front you have a good entry point: A therapist who understands BPD and knows what to look for and a pwBPD who didn't start off the sessions in "blame you" mode, but rather took some ownership.  That's a better start than a ton of people.

But it's just a start, so temper expectations and have patience for the long road ahead.  I say this because I also had this with my BPDw.  Taking ownership in the therapist's office and taking ownership in everyday life are two different things and my BPDw hasn't done that.  Hopefully things progress faster for you.

Yeah, I agree on holding off on having a baby, biological clock be damned.  Lot of scary info you shared that makes this a fairly simple decision IMO.  I think instead you have to think about the ramifications of holding the line against having a child: She may resent you deeply and/or leave you (if her fear of abandonment doesn't supress that).  What's more important to you:  Keeping her and having a child in what could be a bad situation or losing her, but at least not bringing a child into her distorted world?

[maxsterling]

Hopefuldad -

Regarding the baby - this issue could be a breaking point at sometime in the future.  I know this sounds incredibly dishonest - but I actually sometimes consider getting a vasectomy and not telling her.  I'm 38 and have no children.  My previous relationship was with an abusive woman likely NPD if not also BPD, and now this one.  If this ends, I have little confidence that I can trust a woman enough to have a child with her until I have known her a few years.  And by that time I will be in my early 40s, and my child will be living with me until I am 60.  The sad reality -  having a baby with my current girlfriend sounds like a very risky bad idea, and with a future girlfriend also sounds like a potentially bad idea.

[slimmiller]

Just a few words on the having a baby question. I think you already know with your hesitation that its not a good idea. You raise very valid points. Stick with them.

Why do I say that? I over looked all the instability and with my (now ex) BPD and ended up with three kids with her. She lost her birth control, forgot to take it and other excuses... . BUT, in the end she thought it would make us stronger. Course her ending up pregnant she then more or less co-erced me into getting married because I wanted to do the right thing and we would then be stronger (her words)

In the end I lost her anyways and now have to try and co-parent three lovely children whom I love very dearly with an adult child that has the maturity of a three year when she dis-regulates. Not only that she has introduced the children to the new man and 'soulmate', a man child half my age, as the role model in her disfunctional life.

I love my children very dearly and will do about anything for them (which also translates to me being support to her in some form indirectly to see that the childrens well being is preserved). I would not trade them for anything but wish I had them with a normal functioning mother.

Just my experience but something for you to think about before having children with her or even considering it.

Good luck to you!

[slimmiller]

Hopefuldad -

Regarding the baby - this issue could be a breaking point at sometime in the future.  I know this sounds incredibly dishonest - but I actually sometimes consider getting a vasectomy and not telling her. 

I dont see that as dishonest but rather self preservation! If she leaves because you wont have a child with her, she is demonstrating the very fact that you DONT want a child with her. Odds are she will end up leaving anyways is my piont if she is willing to coerce you into having a child to make her happy. It will not make her happy and in all reality make her more 'unhappy'

After my third child, she consented to me having a vasectomy and I jumped on it. I loathe needles and any kind of surgery, let alone cutting THERE but truth is it was easy because I knew what the alternative is and that is even more children and I had enough on my hands as it was

[HopefulDad]

Hopefuldad -

Regarding the baby - this issue could be a breaking point at sometime in the future.  I know this sounds incredibly dishonest - but I actually sometimes consider getting a vasectomy and not telling her.  I'm 38 and have no children.  My previous relationship was with an abusive woman likely NPD if not also BPD, and now this one.  If this ends, I have little confidence that I can trust a woman enough to have a child with her until I have known her a few years.  And by that time I will be in my early 40s, and my child will be living with me until I am 60.  The sad reality -  having a baby with my current girlfriend sounds like a very risky bad idea, and with a future girlfriend also sounds like a potentially bad idea.

Differences on having children is often a breaking point even in healthy relationships.  Based on the scenarios you present, it looks like children are not in your future (unless your pwBPD finds an instant "cure" today and you choose to forge ahead with starting a family... .not going to happen).  If that's the case, then perhaps what you need to do is put aside the BPD issue... .pretend she doesn't even have it... .and talk to her about you not wanting kids.  Save this discussion for the therapist's office if you feel that would be better, but the decision to go child-free and the impact on your relationship should be looked at separately from the BPD.  It's a big deal in any relationship.

[eyvindr]

Hi max --

A lot on your place with your SO -- sounds like you're doing your best, and doing as well as possible, under the circumstances.

I feel compelled to echo and even reinforce HopefulDad's comment on the baby/vasectomy issue.

Hopefuldad -

Regarding the baby - this issue could be a breaking point at sometime in the future.  I know this sounds incredibly dishonest - but I actually sometimes consider getting a vasectomy and not telling her.  I'm 38 and have no children.  My previous relationship was with an abusive woman likely NPD if not also BPD, and now this one.  If this ends, I have little confidence that I can trust a woman enough to have a child with her until I have known her a few years.  And by that time I will be in my early 40s, and my child will be living with me until I am 60.  The sad reality -  having a baby with my current girlfriend sounds like a very risky bad idea, and with a future girlfriend also sounds like a potentially bad idea.

Differences on having children is often a breaking point even in healthy relationships.  Based on the scenarios you present, it looks like children are not in your future (unless your pwBPD finds an instant "cure" today and you choose to forge ahead with starting a family... .not going to happen).  If that's the case, then perhaps what you need to do is put aside the BPD issue... .pretend she doesn't even have it... .and talk to her about you not wanting kids.  Save this discussion for the therapist's office if you feel that would be better, but the decision to go child-free and the impact on your relationship should be looked at separately from the BPD.  It's a big deal in any relationship.

First -- I totally get your feeling that having a v-sect might be the right decision for you. It certainly can be a positive, proactive act of self-preservation. I have one child -- a son, now an adult, to my ex-wife, whose behaviors over time highly indicate BPD -- we were married one month before she told me she was pregnant -- she was, as far as I knew, still on birth control -- no one had decided to get off it. We had no intention of having kids so soon after getting married. Well, I had no intention... .she clearly had other plans. She left me when our son was 16 mos old -- simply told me flat out, with a smile and no animosity at all on her part, that she didn't want to be married anymore.

This largely played into my decision, 9 years later, when I'd begun living with a new partner, to have the vee. I had 9 yrs of parenting under my belt (no pun intended), and my then partner assured me that she didn't want kids (she later changed her mind... .). I haven't regretted the decision at all -- because it was my decision, and I knew I didn't want any more kids.

This would be your decision, too. I do disagree that it would be ok not to tell your SO about it. For reasons I clearly don't understand, lots (maybe most) of people really, truly want to have children -- and if that's what they want, if it will make them happy, they are entitled to have them. For those people, it is entirely reasonable that they need to know that their partner wants to have children with them, too -- it is a big deal. Despite the extenuating circumstances of the BPD, this isn't something to gloss over.

Imo, you need to make up your own mind about whether or not you want to have kids -- and all that comes with having them. And then whether or not you want to have kids with her, or with anyone. Good luck.

e.

[maxen]

we had couples counseling. she liked the therapist, i didn't. in every session my w would put the needle back at the start of the record and simply refuse to address my issues - just like at home!

hope things are going better with you, maxsterling?

[maxsterling]

An update here -

We have had two sessions so far, and I would say both have been productive.  I'm surprised that my dBPDgf is as upfront as she is about her mental illnesses and prior issues with substance abuse.  She isn't trying to pin all her issues on me - and that is a very good thing. 

She hasn't specifically mentioned that she has been diagnosed BPD.  The counselor has a background in abuse and substance abuse, so I would guess she is familiar with BPD characteristics.  And in the second session, my GF spoke at length about her fears that I will leave her, that I will never want to marry her, that I will never want to have a child with her, that she will always feel lonely, etc.  And from the follow up questions the counselor asked - it seems she is aware that BPD is a likely issue here.  She asked things like, "Since he is with you now even after all this, and since he says he wants to say, is it rational for you to think that he will leave you?" She also asked, "even if he did marry you, would you feel secure?" to which she responded  "no, I would then worry he would divorce me and if we had a child that he would take my child from me."

That's pretty telling stuff.  She also mentioned that sometimes wishes she would get accidentally pregnant, and mentioned the abortion she had a year and a half ago, and that if we were married she would feel like it would be harder for me to leave her.

I think her ability to open up in front of a couples counselor like this is a very positive thing, and needs to happen in order for her to feel secure.  But what she said is a little shocking to me.  To me that is an army of red flags that almost no man would ever want in a relationship (secretly wanting to get pregnant - wanting to trap a man through marriage - distrust) - and it's so plainly obvious when it is all out in the air.  I can't blame exes for bailing on her after a few months - and how she still blames them for abandoning her is truly baffling. 

the counselor tried to lead her into understanding that such thoughts were irrational, and that she should work at being able to take care of herself independent of me. 

The subject of marriage came up often, with my GF thinking that I had some kind of criteria I was looking for before I asked her to marry me.  And the counselor asked me if her mental illness was a factor in me wanting to marry her, and I said no - which is true in part.  Really, it is my acceptance of the mental illness and me feeling comfortable that influence my decisions.  And I mentioned that, and that we haven't known each other a year yet, she hasn't met half my family yet, and I want to make sure we are marrying for the right reasons.  Normal considerations we all should have before marriage BPD or not.  But this made my girlfriend impatient.

But I did say that the mental illness could be a huge factor in having a child, and that unless things improved I don't even want to think about that.  My girlfriend responded shortly, "why, do you think I will be a bad mother?"  She calmed down, though, and we were both in good spirits after the session.

[hergestridge]

An update from me. I've canceled the "couples therapy". I felt that the focus began to shift from her from my wife and her BPD problem. We started talking about how my wife's BPD behaviour stopped me from communicating with her. Then suddenly the therapist gave us communication exercises to do as "homework" between the counseling sessions. At first I agreed, but then I realized how wrong it had turned out. Of course the excercises turned into fights and negotations, given my wives BPD behavior.

The last time I was present at a session I told the T that we have started to drift away from the original problem - which was my wives inability to control her temper when interacting with out child. In one of the situations we discussed it turned out I found it difficult to interfere in the mother-daughter interaction sometimes because of my wive's defensive attitude, and all of a sudden the T shifted focus from from my wive's inability to be a mother to my apparent inability to communicate with my borderline wife.

I told the T that we I thought the therapy had lost focus quickly and that situation was becoming destructive, worsening the situation and sucking the energy from me that I so well need being the function parent in the relationship. She agreed and suggested we moved on to traditional DBT sessions with my BPD wife instead.

Not couples counceling, but my wife started going to therapy sessions related to problems she was having related to her role as a mother of our three year old daughter. After a couple sessions she invited me to come along and it became a sort of couples counceling with the focus on parenting. The T has DBT competence.

It's not working out for a couple of reasons. My wife is not prepared to put the work into it that it takes. When the T or the doc points out how much she has to change she just shuts down. She has ADHD too and she can't seem to concentrate through long talks and therapy sessions. She's like that at home too.

My wife's focus in the sessions seems to be answer the questions "right" and to make the T happy so that the whole therapy thing can be over with as soon as possible. I think she feel trapped in a corner.

And let me tell you this - everything of value that comes up in these sessions - every real problem that comes up for discussion - is brought up by me after having been brushed aside or having been ommited from the overall narrative by my wife. She asked for therapy and counseling and when she's there she doesn't want to talk about her own problems at all apart from a couple things that she "needed advice" with.

So I think that

a/ couples counceling may not work very good with BPD people

b/ BPD people may benefit from a having a spouse/relative present in therapy, because they lie and manipulate their way out of therapy

[SweetCharlotte]

Regarding the baby - this issue could be a breaking point at sometime in the future.  I know this sounds incredibly dishonest - but I actually sometimes consider getting a vasectomy and not telling her.  I'm 38 and have no children.

Max, I've replied to you on another thread, and I don't want to be repetitive. However, I don't think you are being fair to your gf. She obviously wants to be a parent and you don't, at least not with her. She desperately needs a stable situation with a committed relationship and you constantly entertain the thought of leaving her. You allowed her to move in with you but wanted it to be temporary. That would lead to a disaster with any woman, not only one with BPD.

I don't know how to advise you, because you state that she would fall apart and perhaps wind up on the street or dead if you were to break up with her. Yet it seems so inevitable. Your own feelings fluctuate so much (from "we could make a great match" to "I secretly wish I could get her to move out" that I wind up sympathizing with your partner for being at the mercy of someone upon whom she has become totally dependent. She has no power in this relationship and that is bound to make her worse. I think that last time I suggested that you leave her in the care of her closest relative and exit the situation. That is still the visceral feeling that I get.