Advice? Input? No clue what to do (pretty long).

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Howdy.

I've taken a break from bpdfamily.com for awhile because my husband and I weren't having much contact with his parents, as we've had VLC for over a year now. Of course, the peace can never last and inevitably, poo hit the fan - just a little.

A quick background if you haven't read my other posts - my MIL has unBPD and has made it very hard on our relationship, alienates her family, and is the root of many difficult and complicated problems in the family. My husband ultimately decided a year ago to cut off communication. He had just had enough. He never told them why as he felt they wouldn't even hear what he had to say. We just couldn't handle the constant issues, manipulation, etc and we decided to put our mental and emotional well being first, as well as our marriage.

Fast forward to yesterday when my sister-in-law text me asking me if I would be willing to help her in bringing the family back together again and stated that my parents-in-law wanted to give us the usual $600 Christmas gift, but could not face the rejection of having another monetary gift returned. She then asked for peace for the holiday season. She has completely assigned herself the 'I'm in the middle and I have to handle it' title.

Oy. I'm doing my best to remain calm and collected, as angry as I am. After my husband called her and proceeded to have an argument over the phone, it became clear to both of us that his parents have manipulated his sister and she does not believe a word we say. She was trying to guilt him into feeling bad about actions that we've taken after 'all that dad's done for us'. He ended up hanging up on her, then sent an assertive email to both his parents and sister telling them that they have been able to contact us at any time (we've sent emails with some correspondence over the last year and included address updates, etc), and told them to leave his sister out of it. He also asked not to have financial or material gifts exchanged, as our relationship is on hiatus.

Last February, they sent us a Valentine's Day card with $20.00 in it. This is normal for his mom to do, but after a fight that happened in late December with them, we felt it was inappropriate given the context of what happened. He sent it back to them, with no note. His mother has now used this against us as a 'slap in the face.'

I am tired of this. As is my husband. You all know how I feel. I know that my husband (and he does too) should have never allowed himself to be baited into a conversation about his parents with his sister. We understand that mistake and know that there will most certainly be a few conversations taking place here in the next few weeks with his parents and his sister to sort a few things out. The outcome, only God knows. I am prepared for the usual bait and switch his mother gives - playing martyr, total waif, then BAM the queen is here and watch out for the rod of punishment! I know this is what shes doing.

Here's what we're stumbling around on and I need some insight from you guys. Should we have told them why we were going no contact? Probably. But I chose to stand behind my husband's decision and I don't regret that - we're a team.

BUT how do you gently and lovingly tell a person you think they have BPD and want them to get help (after months of my therapy, my MIL came to one session and my therapist, who specializes in personality disorders, said she couldn't diagnose her in that time, but she was 99% sure that MIL had the traits, even ones I'd never heard about).

It's the HUGE elephant in the room that nobody is willing to come forward and bring to attention, even though everybody knows it needs to be said and something needs to be done about it. How can we possibly address the core issues at hand and mend the family without addressing the main cause? How do you do it? How do you continue to pretend like the issues are just their own random issues and not connected to the actions of one person and her spouse? It's not going to go over well but isn't it time somebody say it?

What in the world do we do?

[Up In the Air]

Howdy.

I've taken a break from bpdfamily.com for awhile because my husband and I weren't having much contact with his parents, as we've had VLC for over a year now. Of course, the peace can never last and inevitably, poo hit the fan - just a little.

A quick background if you haven't read my other posts - my MIL has unBPD and has made it very hard on our relationship, alienates her family, and is the root of many difficult and complicated problems in the family. My husband ultimately decided a year ago to cut off communication. He had just had enough. He never told them why as he felt they wouldn't even hear what he had to say. We just couldn't handle the constant issues, manipulation, etc and we decided to put our mental and emotional well being first, as well as our marriage.

Fast forward to yesterday when my sister-in-law text me asking me if I would be willing to help her in bringing the family back together again and stated that my parents-in-law wanted to give us the usual $600 Christmas gift, but could not face the rejection of having another monetary gift returned. She then asked for peace for the holiday season. She has completely assigned herself the 'I'm in the middle and I have to handle it' title.

Oy. I'm doing my best to remain calm and collected, as angry as I am. After my husband called her and proceeded to have an argument over the phone, it became clear to both of us that his parents have manipulated his sister and she does not believe a word we say. She was trying to guilt him into feeling bad about actions that we've taken after 'all that dad's done for us'. He ended up hanging up on her, then sent an assertive email to both his parents and sister telling them that they have been able to contact us at any time (we've sent emails with some correspondence over the last year and included address updates, etc), and told them to leave his sister out of it. He also asked not to have financial or material gifts exchanged, as our relationship is on hiatus.

Last February, they sent us a Valentine's Day card with $20.00 in it. This is normal for his mom to do, but after a fight that happened in late December with them, we felt it was inappropriate given the context of what happened. He sent it back to them, with no note. His mother has now used this against us as a 'slap in the face.'

I am tired of this. As is my husband. You all know how I feel. I know that my husband (and he does too) should have never allowed himself to be baited into a conversation about his parents with his sister. We understand that mistake and know that there will most certainly be a few conversations taking place here in the next few weeks with his parents and his sister to sort a few things out. The outcome, only God knows. I am prepared for the usual bait and switch his mother gives - playing martyr, total waif, then BAM the queen is here and watch out for the rod of punishment! I know this is what shes doing.

Here's what we're stumbling around on and I need some insight from you guys. Should we have told them why we were going no contact? Probably. But I chose to stand behind my husband's decision and I don't regret that - we're a team.

BUT how do you gently and lovingly tell a person you think they have BPD and want them to get help (after months of my therapy, my MIL came to one session and my therapist, who specializes in personality disorders, said she couldn't diagnose her in that time, but she was 99% sure that MIL had the traits, even ones I'd never heard about).

It's the HUGE elephant in the room that nobody is willing to come forward and bring to attention, even though everybody knows it needs to be said and something needs to be done about it. How can we possibly address the core issues at hand and mend the family without addressing the main cause? How do you do it? How do you continue to pretend like the issues are just their own random issues and not connected to the actions of one person and her spouse? It's not going to go over well but isn't it time somebody say it?

What in the world do we do?

[GeekyGirl]

Welcome back! I'm sorry that things are still rough with your MIL.

Should we have told them why we were going no contact? Probably. But I chose to stand behind my husband's decision and I don't regret that - we're a team.

Not necessarily. You could have, if you and your DH had chosen to, explained to your in-laws why you were upset and needed some space. It's so, so important, though, that you and your DH are on the same page--that's very encouraging and I'm certain that has helped him.

BUT how do you gently and lovingly tell a person you think they have BPD and want them to get help (after months of my therapy, my MIL came to one session and my therapist, who specializes in personality disorders, said she couldn't diagnose her in that time, but she was 99% sure that MIL had the traits, even ones I'd never heard about).

It's the HUGE elephant in the room that nobody is willing to come forward and bring to attention, even though everybody knows it needs to be said and something needs to be done about it. How can we possibly address the core issues at hand and mend the family without addressing the main cause? How do you do it?

This is a tricky question. How do you think she'd receive that message? There's some good information in this article: Helping a loved one with BPD seek treatment. While this is geared towards people in romantic relationships with someone with BPD, you use the same technique in this: PERSPECTIVES: Telling someone that you think they have BPD.

What does your husband think about asking his mother to seek treatment?

[Up In the Air]

Hi GeekyGirl,

Thanks for your input! I read the suggested articles (thank you!) and they were helpful. It reminded me of a few things my therapist and I previously discussed.

Both DH and I feel mentioning any type of mental illness or her need to get help would not be beneficial. She's not ready. Despite her husband and both DH and I previously asking her to get some help, the response was that she did not need help, but we did. Even my therapist said she was not at all in a place to listen, learn, and change - that was over 1.5 years ago. It appears that things haven't changed.

I think that DH, on some level, would love to talk to her about it, but we both know that it'd be a waste of words. This just sickens me. If I'm truly honest with myself, I know that mentioning her illness to her and getting her help is a way that I can feel validated (along with everyone else who is affected by her behavior) for all the pain and hurt caused. I'm still having to remind myself that only I can really validate what happened. I can never expect it from her and that is devastating, the thought that we will not really reach a level of relationship in which things are healthy and mutually loving.

I did appreciate the part of the second article, where they point out the value to value of relationships. Is it worth it to continue the relationship, as broken as it is, and what will we get out of it? I already know. It's painful, it's exhausting, we get very little out of it and give a lot... .the only aspects of it that can change are how we respond to any issues that arise. Discontinuing the relationship, or going NC or VLC will undoubtedly give us peace, but the problem and broken relationship still exist, the pain is still there. So I feel it's a matter of tolerating her attempts and abuse, or shoving it aside altogether. I dislike both options.

DH and I spoke last night and decided that if there is going to be a relationship, it will only be superficial, no real personal details ever divulged to them. That seems to empty and useless to me, but we have to protect ourselves too. We also agreed that any financial or material gifts would cross a line, so only cards. That our future children would have time with them, but supervised, never left alone. As we may be very soon discussing possible parameters of reconstructing the relationship with them, he fully intends on laying all details out so that no one is confused. I am unsure of how they will respond, though I am certain my MIL will take a small, crappy relationship over none, and use whatever chance she gets to wedge in there and change things to the way things once were.

[Sitara]

I feel your pain Up In The Air.  I once tried to suggest that my mom seek therapy.  This was before I realized there was a name for her problem, but I could see that she had unresolved issues from her youth and that she was constantly miserable.  Her response was that all her problems disappeared when her parents died and that she was perfectly happy.  Just like you, I realize that my mom will never want to change.

Unfortunately life isn't so simple as to always give us two choices, one good and one bad.  Most of the time it's about picking the better of two options, even when both those options suck.  It's hard knowing we'll never have close, loving families.  But some things are just outside our control, and we have to do what's best for us.

I had to let go because I was tired of my mom treating me, my husband, and my sons with disrespect.  In my case, it wasn't that I told her that I don't want anything to do with her anymore, I just told her I wanted to be treated with respect.  She was the one who decided she'd rather not have a relationship than do that.  I have no control over that, so I am working on moving on, enjoying my family, and letting go.

I hope you and your husband are able to find what's best for you.

[Up In the Air]

Thank you Sitara!

It's so painful, isn't it, when it's more important for them to be right or to have the upper hand, than to have a meaningful, healthy relationship. Such betrayal. Mostly, I am crushed for my hubby. He wants so badly to have everything fit together. It's so hard to watch him hurt.

My DH ended up emailing his parents a letter the other day that basically said, if you want to work things out, then fine but here are some parameters for recreating our relationship again, he mentioned trust, he mentioned leaving his sister completely out of it, and asked if they would be willing to put forth effort. Her reply was total BPD-land. I don't even think she read it all the way and she's pegging the reason why we went NC on her husband, which she has convinced her daughter of too. She also emailed her reply to my DH's sister. So it was clear that even after a year, there's been no change and no insight. He decided to maintain NC or VLC (just cards) until they decide to take some responsibility for their actions. He didn't mention BPD to her, as we've now agreed that if she comes to a point where it's obvious she's ready, then it'd be the time. Until then, it would only stir up trouble. And you're right Sitara, both options do suck.

I'm feeling like we'll at least have the quiet kind of peace right now, not constantly having to re-draw boundaries, but the whole thing just kind of ripped the scab right off our wounds.

[StarStruck]

Hi Up In the Air,

Firstly really sorry to here you're going through this since we last mailed a few months ago.


I don't know where my story is on the BPD timeline with yours. Here goes...

My contact with Mom is VLC. However and this is going to sound like I'm on dodgy ground... .the calm before the storm I think... .

I don't know whether I am past a blow up or just before one because its gone quiet... .I don't know if she wants to be in contact really or not. I'm happy for the peace... .but can't help think I'm an edge away from having to put cards on the table, like in your situation.

Therefore you could be one step ahead of me but maybe I'm naively hoping it doesn't come to the 'having to say the VLC for real'. Cards out on the table, formal boundaries spoken about.

My brother does now & again speak as if he wants it out in the open (he doesn't know shes's BPD though) think he still wants a resolution. Although he has gone 'off' her a huge deal and understands why I have done the things I have now; hope that understanding continues and doesn't get muddied. It's taken him a while to realize somethings up with her; years.

I have gradually over the years just slunk away.

I'm like you... .if it's a stilted closed off relationship it's = sort of no relationship. I'm an open person and don't like to be in any 'weird' relationship with undertones. It forces a fake situation and I hate that.

Is it worth it at all? I know it's painful for you and your husband but having a bad relationship with her doesn't change the facts of what she is. I totally feel for your husband and you. I also know how annoying it is (understatement) when a sibling is doing that; it's like "wake up and smell the coffee!".

I'm of the thinking that I'm better off with less contact as possible as pretending things are alright to her doesn't make it alright for me, doesn't change the past or the future. In fact its really painful being around her - absence certainly doesn't make the heart grow fonder in my case. (I am of the thought that there is no way she will go for the therapy route, no way (a witch type).

I have thought about whether she could be cured and whether its the right thing for me to 'help' her but it would totally be at my expense, can you imagine - the turds would really hit the fan. With no certainty it will work. I think the pain I would have to go through at the glimmer of hope it would assist her, is too much for me to ask of myself. It would kill me slowly I'm sure. Especially as I'm trying to gain a decent life myself after the rockiness of having a mother like that.

It would feel like I would be laying my life down for hers with no certainty it would help her. They have to be really up for working with the counsellor don't they, really committed. To go from say my Mom laughing "what me, I have a problem' to working with a therapist, I just can't see it. A great fantasy but I have not got enough years to waste and why should I really, all she done has created a nightmare for me to work out.

I think from a distance you can morn and get over the lost relationship that never was really there in the way it should of been. It can help you sympathize with why they are BPD. Obviously I know better now not to action that with more face time. Otherwise vicious circle.

So I suppose after all that waffle... My take is run run run be free as the wind... .put every bit of effort into helping your husband morn and good riddance. (don't mean riddance in a nasty way! just the mindset)

Honestly sending annoying cards through stuff like that it's a total wind up. Game playing.

I don't think they will ever work it out for themselves. Their deluded reality on life is in their brains. It's the very thing that stops them from knowing they are the ones that are wrong. The more time they have on their own to think about why, the more lies they tell themselves. I wished for ages that my mom would just realize on her own. It doesn't and will never happen. Sadly.


Putting what's currently working for me aside -

I think you have these choices: 1) Your husbands breaks of all contact without saying a word about poss BPD and morns. 2) You say straight up, mom think you have a personality disorder (hence why Im not happy with relationship etc). Suggest therapy then if she willing to go to a therapist - 2a) stick around to help 2b) see her when she's getting on the road, checking in periodically to see progress - so support at a distance. 2c) If she's not happy for therapy. You and husband go back to 1) option.


I have noticed something with me... .when you go VLC, after; any contact, gesture or anything they do takes a lot more significance. Can be just a painful as having an afternoon with them. So you a totally right at trying to manage all that.


Sending you a lot of strength, love and happiness, really feel for you two I can totally sympathize with your situation. You both deserve the life you TWO (and children) have always wanted. Carry on with your strong stance with the dark side. Your husband has prob been through so much throughout his life, it really angers me to think she's having any play in your lives now.


I do hope there is something to help in all that lot! Take care  

[StarStruck]

Up In the Air - I'd like to add - VLC for me is one a year visit, odd email 3x year. plus bday card/mother day.x. (superfictional stuff in email eg her... .split something on the cream carpet the other day... .)

ps No christmas - I have a no christmas thing... .where I have said for last few years "I dont do christmas".

[maryy16]

I am usually on the Staying board as my H has BPD, but I look at the Parents board every so often since my H's mother most definitely has BPD traits, but is undiagnosed.

I wanted to comment on your question about telling your in-laws why you were going NC.  12 years ago, my H had also had enough of his parents (father is an enabler) and decided to go NC.  He did call his mother and told her the reason, which was a specific incident that really broke the camel's back.  He was very calm and clearly told her that he could not handle her behavior anymore and that unless she was willing to change, he would not have anything to do with her anymore.  Her response was... ."Fine, this means war".  

So, to answer your question, whether you explained the reason or not, you probably would have had the same reaction since BPD minds cannot accept responsibility.  

[Up In the Air]

maryy16 - that's exactly how we looked at it - she would take it as an insult, not a helping hand for the sake of her and the family. I am both surprised and not surprised by your MIL's comment to your DH's ultimatum. Ouch... .that HAD to hurt. Is your DH diagnosed with BPD or do you suspect it? Just curious how he found out, if someone confronted him, etc.

In a sense I regret not saying the real reason why we went NC because at least she'd have a reason but it wouldn't guarantee anything. You're right, it'd still probably leave us right where we are now.

missful - I'm really hoping things work out well for you - that your situation remains as peaceful as it can! I appreciate your perspective and the update on your current situation. 

The thing that stuck out to me most in your reply, was the question of: Is it worth it? Sigh. You hit the nail on the head for me when you were writing about the effort you'd have to put forth to help support your mom if she chose to get help - it not being a sure thing and all. I'll make a point for staying VLC and DH, though unwilling to 'give in' if MIL continues not taking responsibility, keeps saying 'but she's my mom" and I totally agree and I'll back him up no matter what he decides, but I'm hoping that as MIL keeps digging that hole of lies for herself and triangulating with my SIL, that he'll start feeling that what we're doing - even though excruciatingly painful - it is the better option. We do deserve to be happy. We deserve to have lives free of emotional abuse and manipulation and part of that is to stop pretending that the family is whole and happy and perfectly fine.

I'm with you on the card thing - I find it REALLY annoying and insincere. Total game playing. MIL is quite mad that we have announced (in the email) that we do not want to receive gifts from them. I very much understand 'not doing Christmas' - it just makes things less complicated.

After speaking with my T the other day, she said "She's just going to keep trying. It's her method. She's going to wear you down, until giving in is easier than staying put in your boundaries." She was only speaking the truth, but it made me so mad. So we just have to stand our ground. I think at some point there will be a very upsetting conversation, where someone loses their cool and just outs the whole BPD thing. Oy. I just have that feeling - like you - wondering if it's over or if it's about to explode.

As of right now, it took a few days, but I'm feeling a bit more back to 'normal'. My DH, on the other hand, this really left him undone. I know there's only so much I can do, I can't fix it. My T suggested that since men tend to react to bad situations with mainly anger of the four main emotions (happy, sad, scared, mad), as DH has been super pissed, that I gently suggest to him that it's okay to feel scared about the relationship with his parents and it's okay to be sad about it too, to encourage those feelings to be released and recognized so that he can move through it with more fluidity. So I want to work on that with him because I think it'd help that heart of his heal a little.

[maryy16]

My H is diagnosed but I suspected it for a long time. He finally decided on his own to go get help after he almost hit our teenage son during an argument. Since he himself was hit/beaten by his mother, he vowed never to hit his kids. So when he found himself at that point, he knew he needed help.

And yes, her comment did hurt, but also it also kind of "sealed the coffin" so to speak. We had no connect with mother/father/sister for 11 years.

[StarStruck]

Hi -

Sounds like you are doing so well you know. You sound like a real rock to your husband.

Totally with you on the someone's just going to come out and say the BPD thing. When I first came on the forum I had the same feeling that the intensity of the moment it would rear its head but prob to my determent or Im scared I would never say it out loud. I keep a stand offish demeanor prob because Im trying to work out what the hell she means by certain comments.  :)efinite narc supply going on there.

Must be tough for you having to balance all this with your husband being very hurt too. You have got a lot on but sounds like your managing it brilliantly. I feel for you, not even your parent. You sound very understanding, caring with your head screwed on! what an asset for your husband.

Keep thinking to yourself, this will change, it will because you and your husband want it to, you've already set the wheels in motion. Hang on until the reward at the end. Closure will come at some point if you work on what YOU guys need. The anger will subside when the boundaries are more fixed and the guilt will disappear. You will start to see these boundaries as your right. Seeing the boundaries as the very least compared to the grief she gave your husband growing up. He will feel deserving of them (prob already does hence why he's done it! hey).

To realize it will be painful whichever way - this is very depressing thought but inevitable but it gets better and better. Good Luck.

Honestly it's got to the point now that sometimes I feel I'm laughing back at her. Thinking you didn't win. I'm not lost to you. Enjoy your rubbish life. It sounds childish doesn't it because I'm hitting the 3 year old ball back over the fence. Apparently BPD have a mental age of 3 and a narc 6!

Sweet jesus, sure explains a few things.

[Up In the Air]

maryy16 - that is amazing that your DH got help! Whenever a pwBPD takes responsibility I am so proud! It makes so much more room for healing, happiness, and resolution.

missful - Thank you for your encouragement!  My T says one day the MIL will do her consistent thing and we'll not longer get upset, but rather brush it off like it's nothing. That's what we're working towards!

When you said 'enjoy your rubbish life' - that grabbed me because that's so much of how I feel. It's so important for her to be right, for her to be above other people, for her to quite frankly be miserable, that you just throw in the towel and call it a day. It's like 'no more for me, thank you!' How sad is it, that it's what they choose and so often times unknowingly - that cognitive ability just isn't there to signal them. I don't think it's childish at all, but rather you taking hold of your life and living it - not letting a person emotionally hurt you any longer - taking your power back and defining yourself - that's huge and beautiful and you recognize you want more for yourself. 

[StarStruck]

Thank you Up In the Air  !