Unfair boundary?

[AnitaL]

I've just gotten started reading The High Conflict Couple and have been thinking about how I can improve myself and my interactions with my uBPDh, with the hopes of getting some positive connections back between us.  I've gotten pretty good at walking away and not JADE'ing when he is dysregulated and tries to start a fight by insulting/blaming/berating me, but one thing I cannot seem to get past is the time it takes me to "return to equilibrium" after being verbally attacked. 

I've always been emotionally sensitive, so this journey has been incredibly difficult for me.  My emotional armor is much thicker now than it used to be, but I still can't just turn around and act friendly or sometimes even civilly within minutes of being called a nasty name.  For example, tonight my H was triggered by the fact that our dishwasher is making a loud buzzing noise when it runs.  One of his major triggers is anything to remind him of the fact that we are still renting, and he often gets dysregulated when something needs fixing because he hates the idea that we don't own it.  In the past he has demanded that I ask the landlady for whatever needs to be done, because he "can't be as nice as me".  I've always given in and done this as I have felt he would only make things worse.  This time, when he demanded that I "take care of this", my response was to tell him I was concerned about asking for it to be fixed if it is only making a noise (it still works fine), because we are in a vulnerable position -- we are on a month-to-month lease and we have 3 children under five, and if the landlady doesn't want to fix it she could just ask us to leave (and would probably get much higher rent from new tenants).  This sent him through the roof, and he immediately started in on how it's all my fault we're stuck in this life he hates, I don't make enough money to get us out of it, he wished he never met me, etc. then he called me a f***ing b**** and slammed the door.  This was all in the middle of my trying to get the two older kids to bed, but luckily they didn't hear the exchange. 

Now 30 min later he tried to start a conversation with me, but I really don't want to talk to him.  I'm wondering whether it's unreasonable of me to have an unspoken boundary that is basically "If you verbally attack me, I will need some time to myself for at least a few hours before I can engage in regular conversation again."  Does this make me as bad as him, giving the silent treatment when I know he said those things when he was triggered/dysregulated and not in control?  Or is it reasonable to just take the time I need? 

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[123Phoebe]

I have a hard time with this, too; knowing whether/when to say something or not.  I've given what could be considered the silent treatment, out of not knowing how to address an issue without dysregulating myself   So hung back until I was more emotionally stable.

I think as long as you're not stomping around acting passive aggressively, you're probably okay and just in need of a breather (?)  Have you found interesting ways to self soothe?

A trick is learning to let some things slide.  Whether a boundary of yours has been crossed, then it's a whole 'nother story... .

Awesome that you're reading The High Conflict Couple!

[AnitaL]

I think as long as you're not stomping around acting passive aggressively, you're probably okay and just in need of a breather (?)  Have you found interesting ways to self soothe?

This is how I feel, I guess -- I just went to another room and have been reading, cleaning, having a snack etc.  No stomping around. 

Awesome that you're reading The High Conflict Couple!

It's amazing how many times so far I've read some sentence and thought, wow.  This book is for ME as much as him.  I also love how it doesn't even mention BPD, but just focuses on what is going on in the relationship.  Very interesting so far.  I'm hoping that I can get my H to read it too... .

[Chosen]

For me, what "works" is that I will communicate my boundary to my pwBPD, but not beforehand when things are ok (because things will either go bad, or he will not listen because nothing happening then).  I think if they don't know what the boundary is, then it may *feel* unfair for them.

To be honest, when you act it out, they probably can tell what your boundary is already, but it's safer and seems more honest when you voice it out, so it will not be mistaken as a punishment.  For me, I used to tell him (when he starts verbally abusing me), "I will not respond to verbal abuse.  I will resume the conversation when you talk to me normally and not attack me."  That's my boundary, and I let him know clearly, but only when he starts doing something that is stepping on my boundary.  And also, when needed, I repeat the words in the exact wording, and eventually it sinks in a little.  You can't expect him to accept it the first time round, but I think voicing it out helps them come to terms with what your boundary is.

[SimplySeattle]

I have dealt with verbal abuse in my marriage and have established clear boundaries with my uBPD wife. She was told that if she screams at me or gives me the silent treatment, then I'll be leaving for awhile. I told her that I would not be abandoning her, but just leaving until she figures things out.

If you do set boundaries, stick to them and do not budge one bit. You will get tested repeatedly and they will exploit any weakness you have.

Good luck.

[AnitaL]

To be honest, when you act it out, they probably can tell what your boundary is already, but it's safer and seems more honest when you voice it out, so it will not be mistaken as a punishment. 

This is exactly what I've been thinking about.  I don't know how he interprets my silence, but I'm realizing that I do not want it to be misconstrued as a punishment that he would probably view as on par with his own behavior.  I think it would probably be better for me to say calmly that I need some time to myself to recoup after being insulted or called nasty names.  That way there is a clear link to my behavior as a response to his.  I can't guarantee that he will listen to me, I guess, but at least I can try.

[talbed]

When I don't slip into "normal" and respond to such nasty verbal assaults, I will say "you will NOT be calling me such things, and I will not sit here and listen to them... .period."  I will then walk away.  As hard as it is though, I will welcome her attempts at a normal conversation as soon as she attempts it.  Have to be forgiving.  A trait BPDs do not have.  So showing by example what that means.  But if it is a really nasty continuous assault... .I have found a room at a local hotel... .  I need a rewards program with them.  So I have gone both ways on this one, so I do not have it mastered just yet.

[HopefulDad]

I spell it out for my BPDw when a boundary is crossed, especially one involving nasty name calling:

"I'm sorry, did you just call me a f****** b****?  I understand you're upset, but no way am I accepting that behavior.  I'm going out for a few hours.  If you're going to resort to that kind of name calling, maybe I won't want to talk when I get back."

This works for my wife because she doesn't go around calling everyone in her life who pisses her off a f****** b****.  She knows it's wrong, but for some reason thinks it's okay to use on me.  So I can take a harder approach with her.  Plus, the focus is on behavior, not her feelings/thoughts behind them.  Behavior is more easily defined as acceptable or not without too much argument between spouses.

Understandable that with this approach, your mileage may vary.

[AnitaL]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  HopefulDad, I like the idea to repeat it and state that the behavior is not acceptable.  I will try that next time.  My problem is I usually wait too long and seethe about it after he's long since forgotten that it even happened.  I need to respond immediately to make the boundary very clear. 

[Grey Kitty]

A time-out is to protect yourself and allow yourself to calm down.

If you are still upset about a name you were called, your feelings are real, and you can't just wish them away.

In addition, if you try to pretend that you aren't upset, there is a good chance that your non-verbal communications will be obviously holding back in some way, and are likely to make your next conversation go worse--a pwBPD is usually very observant and sensitive to the moods of another person, even if they don't react appropriately in many cases.

So take more quiet/separate time when you need it.

As a side note: ugly truths like the wisdom of not being a bother to your landlady merit a careful delivery if you can manage. S.E.T. is effective for this sort of situation.

[AnitaL]

In addition, if you try to pretend that you aren't upset, there is a good chance that your non-verbal communications will be obviously holding back in some way, and are likely to make your next conversation go worse--a pwBPD is usually very observant and sensitive to the moods of another person, even if they don't react appropriately in many cases.

This is spot on.  It's the examining of my own tendencies to make things worse sometimes that led me to this question in the first place.  I've come to realize that whenever I force myself to reengage before I am ready, I do tend to act in a way I am not proud of -- passive aggressive, sarcastic, etc.  I think this boundary will help prevent that.

Interestingly, after I took the night to myself, I felt much better today about acting "normal" and engaging my H in positive ways even though I knew he was still on the edge of dysregulation.  I don't know if it's related to my actions at all, but my H actually chose to contact his therapist today for guidance and also took it upon himself to call a repairman for the dishwasher.  We had one short negative interaction tonight, but he actually apologized for what he said soon afterwards.  I am hopeful that we can continue making these small steps.

[Chosen]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  HopefulDad, I like the idea to repeat it and state that the behavior is not acceptable.  I will try that next time.  My problem is I usually wait too long and seethe about it after he's long since forgotten that it even happened.  I need to respond immediately to make the boundary very clear. 

Be careful when repeating what they said.  My C suggested to me that it *may* not be a good idea to repeat what they say word for word, as a lot of times those words are highly triggering (to you, to him), and repeating it just fuels things up.  Because if he knows that calling you f****** b**** will cause you to be triggered and respond, he will likely do it again.  Perhaps it will be better to categorise it as "verbal abuse", rather than repeating the word.  Also, you can let him know that it's not just that one word you won't tolerate.

[AnitaL]

Chosen, thank you for that advice.  That makes a lot of sense, in particular the fact that repeating it may trigger me as well as him all over again.

[HopefulDad]

On repeating what they said specifically:

Saying something vague like, "I will not stand here and be verbally abused by you," can be thrown back in your face by pwBPD when they say back, "Oh, then maybe you should stop verbally abusing ME if you want to stop being verbally abused!"  It's ridiculous, I know, but I've actually had that happen.  They think that because you triggered them, you are the abuser and then tit-for-tat is justified.

When it comes to behavior, I've found that being direct has been best.  And the sooner the better or else if it's brought up later you will hear denials ("I never said that!".

And as for triggering them, you're going to do that no matter what sooner or later.  If enforcing a boundary with a clear reminder of why they crossed it does that, that's just how it is.

[nodoover]

I am good at leaving when I can (not in car, etc) sometimes I will say something like when we can talk calmly I will return, but lately I just quietly walk out because no matter what I say it seems to escalate things.

But I know how you mean about not being able to be nice when they are right away, I struggle with that also as I am a sensitive person and like you even though I have got better, being unfairly yelled at, called names, bullied, etc is very hard.

My biggest struggle for a very long time is sex, later that night he has completely forgotten what he did and is back into his nice, I am wonderful mode and wants to cuddle and have sex.  I can't give of myself something so vulnerable after being called things earlier in the day.

I have been honest and said i am not over the names you called me, let's try tomorrow... .but sometimes that brings up fight again because I haven't forgiven him. 

[Hope26]

I can SO relate to all of your comments in this thread.  I don't have any answers, only perhaps more questions.  Anita L, it is very difficult for me to 'return to equilibrium' also, being a very sensitive person as well.  Due to the nature of their illness, it seems they don't ever feel the need to apologize for verbal abuse.  I guess they wouldn't be doing it in the first place if they recognized how wrong it is, or how it affects us.  It feels very much to me like dealing with another child; you have to forgive and overlook a lot, since they don't seem to know any better.  I am just going to work on staying calm and avoiding JADEing next time.  I guess if I can see one positive here, it's that we having an amazing opportunity for emotional growth in ourselves, dealing with this.