Do we trigger BPD people to act defensively and "not themselves"?

[Diana82]

Hi all

So, I had a fight with a BPD ex lover-turned-friend recently. It was rather scary.

I had called to apologise over a previous little argument we had a week earlier. She had also accused me of calling her something I didn't and I wanted to clear that up too. She had not picked up the phone, so I ended up leaving a voice message.

I was not prepared for the vitriol that was to follow.   

She lashed out over text message (in her usual passive aggressive way) saying "I thought we might be friends but you can't keep insulting me every week and then shroud an apology in more nastiness. Your words and tone make me feel terrible. Good bye"

She then started to say we have nothing in common (which was weird considering she said she missed me a week earlier) and I make her sad.  She also accused me of constantly rehashing stuff that I wasn't.  She ended by saying "Ok I'm ___ed. Good bye" and deleted me off Facebook.  It was just awful. Considering I didn't do anything but apologise!


The next day she seemed to have calmed down (but I was really upset). Despite being upset, I decided to tell her that I think we should try to talk in a mature way and resolve to be on friendly terms.

And she told me she was "devastated" she upset me and that it wasn't her intention. I then started to get a bit scared... thinking her moods are out of control.

So I told her that I didn't think we should talk now in case I unintentionally upset her which I don't want to do.  I was really just trying to protect myself from another outburst.

She then said "do you mean you want to leave things be for a while?"  and I said "Yes I think so. It was quite stressful to be on the receiving end of some of your messages. But I care about you and don't want you to be sad".

She then said "I agree. I am destroyed after the past week. I'm not thick skinned to be able to deal with your messages. I am sorry for my part- I really didn't mean to hurt you".  I then extended a "virtual hug" to hear via text and said I hope she has a nice day. I was trying to be nice... despite the craziness.

She said "Thanks for my hug. I really didn't mean to react... I know you didn't mean to attack me, you just have a knack for finding my insecurities! have a lovely day"

My immediate thought was 'attack' her?   I never attacked her.   I calmly called to apologise and she lashed out. I also thought the use of the word "destroyed" was full on!

I slept on it and replied the next day saying:   "Ok... I know you have insecurities. But I had no idea what can trigger them. So that was a bit scary for me. If we can be friends one day, it might help if I know what can upset you. I'm pretty understanding smiley"

And no reply.

So now... I am not sure what to do in regards to how much space to give her.

I feel she must have been on edge the night I called her... perhaps emotionally deregulating. I am a little scared of contacting her again in a week... because she might lash out again.  But I feel I want to text her maybe in 2 weeks saying "Hey, hope you're well. Just thinking of you".

And what about the whole deleting off Facebook thing? Do you think I should wait for her to re-add me?  It's all so dramatic.

But I do care about her and miss her. I want to restore a positive friendship despite her moods and issues.  Any advice?

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[123Phoebe]

Hi ZaraP,

Maintaining a relationship with an ex-lover can sometimes be hard enough, add BPD to it and it can be just that much more difficult.  I'm sorry you're going through this right now

Have you had a chance to read The Lessons?  They're to the right of this page and oh so helpful.  There are ways to communicate that let the person with BPD know that we hear them and can understand where they're coming from (in so many words). 

This link might just end up being your best friend:

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

I think I'd put the FB issue on hold for a few.  You're right about it being dramatic, but no need to get drawn into the drama.

Hang in there

And keep posting; it helps! 

[Diana82]

My ex lover-turned-friend and I recently had a fall out. I believe she is BPD as she has all the traits. She blew up at me over text last week after I had apologised for something and she accused me of saying things I didn't say. She also thought my apology was nasty and told me I  regularly insult her but could never give examples. She seems to lash out over misunderstandings and then calms down 24 hours later and regrets the things she says to me. 

After her lash out, she did indeed calm down and said she was 'devastated' she had upset me and 'destroyed'. 

I agreed to leave her be for a while and she told me (via text again) that I "have a knack for finding her insecurities"  and she also said "I don't know what it is you say/do, I just don't feel myself around you and I act quite defensively. I must need to learn a new life skill and we will revisit this!".

I am not sure how to deal with her. I have a lot of good friendships and people have never felt this way around me. I don't go around insulting people, especially her!   

I do care about her. Do you think space is the best thing? or should I tackle it head on and create boundaries?

[caughtnreleased]

My ex lover-turned-friend and I recently had a fall out. I believe she is BPD as she has all the traits. She blew up at me over text last week after I had apologised for something and she accused me of saying things I didn't say. She also thought my apology was nasty and told me I  regularly insult her but could never give examples. She seems to lash out over misunderstandings and then calms down 24 hours later and regrets the things she says to me. 

After her lash out, she did indeed calm down and said she was 'devastated' she had upset me and 'destroyed'. 

I agreed to leave her be for a while and she told me (via text again) that I "have a knack for finding her insecurities"  and she also said "I don't know what it is you say/do, I just don't feel myself around you and I act quite defensively. I must need to learn a new life skill and we will revisit this!".

I am not sure how to deal with her. I have a lot of good friendships and people have never felt this way around me. I don't go around insulting people, especially her!   

I do care about her. Do you think space is the best thing? or should I tackle it head on and create boundaries?

Sorry to hear about your falling out.  My experience with the pwBPD in my life has been that they will always blame others for their actions, or make other people feel like they are the "problem".  A really important step for me in dealing with it all has been to understand that the only actions you are, and can be, responsible for, are your own.   Sometimes you are right and sometimes you are wrong.  And recognizing and owning up to both is important.  And anything that anyone else does, is their responsibility to own up to. 

[Diana82]

thanks for your response. Yes, she definitely seems to blame me for the way she feels and it is projection.

She also said things like "You like me, you hate me, you get mad at me!" and this is not true. Feels like her own emotional deregulation being projected.

She seems to completely misinterpret things I say to her as well... and even told me my 'tone' makes her feel terrible. She said I work in the "corporate world" and come across to her as abrupt and she has to "protect herself from my tone".  She also said she feels like she's "always doing something wrong" with me.

It's hard to believe I have this affect on her, when I have not seen her for 2.5 months! and I spend my time playfully joking with her or complimenting her. We had an intense sexual relationship and that's all.

Is this the way BPDs behave with anyone who is either physically or emotionally intimate with them at some stage?

I feel the best way to answer her text is to give it a few days and perhaps say "I am not sure what to say"  and then tell her I thought of her and mention something we both have a shared interest in. Try to steer the conversation away from this and act normally.

or do you think tackling it head on and telling her I feel she projects stuff, is better?  I am fearful I may then get accused of being even more "terrible" to her.

[musicfan42]

I feel the best way to answer her text is to give it a few days and perhaps say "I am not sure what to say"  and then tell her I thought of her and mention something we both have a shared interest in. Try to steer the conversation away from this and act normally.

This is definitely the easy option. I would be tempted to do this however this will probably only work in the short-term. Your friend will likely get triggered by something else and act up yet again.

or do you think tackling it head on and telling her I feel she projects stuff, is better?  I am fearful I may then get accused of being even more "terrible" to her.

I don't think you should actually use the word "projection" with her. She'll just say that YOU'RE the one projecting... it's very predictable stuff.

What are you getting out of being friends with this person? Do you actually enjoy spending timing with her or is this type of thing a regular occurrence?

[Diana82]

Yes, I do feel that saying anything remotely negative to her will backfire.

Recently, she accused me of calling her a 'bipolar junkie' and this was her accuse for getting angry at me.  Truth is, while we were dating... she had told me about some emotional issues she had and one night said "By the way, I'm bipolar. And I like to eat bricks".

But then she laughed and said she was joking.  "Eating bricks" to me is code for liking dope (as she does the odd joint and used to do drugs regularly). And I thought bipolar was her way of speaking in code for having emotional issues.  I thought it was a weird joke anyway! 

So... .a month later we had had a fight and she said she wasn't ready for anything serious with me and kept being vague and saying odd things.  I then told her she doesn't need to keep speaking code to me anymore. And I referred to her bipolar and eating bricks joke as an example of 'speaking code'.

And now- she has twisted this to say I actually called her a "bipolar junkie".  And when I clarified that I didn't, this made her angrier and she said I "constantly rehash it".  It was alarming and quite disturbing! considering she made this joke- about herself.

I would never call her (or anyone) a bipolar junkie.  So I am quite scared to say anything negative now. And if I do use the word projection or even say her emotions are a bit intense and changeable... she could then say i called her a schizophrenic! who knows!

[Diana82]

well the thing is... we had an intense affair for 2 months and then we had a fight and she became very distant and flakey. Kept avoiding me. I went overseas on a holiday and she didn't want to see me prior to my holiday. I was quite hurt but assumed she no longer wanted to date me.

We did communicate while I was overseas regularly, though. It was friendly banter but not flirty.  And when I got back home, she told me she misses me. It was quite surprising given she had ignored me and didn't want to see me at all for weeks before I left. And when I questioned her why she avoided me... she went off at me (over Facebook chat) saying that I called her a bipolar junkie and saying that I apparently "want all or nothing" and that "it's normal to miss someone you haven't seen for ages".  She got really defensive and angry. It was bizarre.   

I kept thinking... yes... it is normal to miss someone. I have missed her a lot.  But she had avoided me and flaked and I thought she wasn't interested in me. And then she says she misses me. Feels like such up and down merry go round behaviour. Like a player.

She has deleted me off facebook since she her recent lash out over text. What I have noticed is- she is all sweet and gentle in person. But very passive aggressive and uses text to lash out over little things. But then she feels really bad 24 hours later and says "it wasn't my intention".

She is a teacher of small children too! so I think she is a high functioning BPD.

I do care about her. And I think I just want to be on good terms with her and restore some kind of peaceful friendship. But not sure how if she is claiming I "find her insecurities" and make her feel defensive.

[waverider]

I am not sure you can maintain a relationship like this with a pwBPD as these relationships require balance, moderation and appropriateness. These are not BPD traits, which are more about all or nothing, you are either her rescuer or her persecutor. As a result of being officially neither she will fluctuate rapidly between the two according to her emotional needs. you will not be an open and honest confidant.

Because of your emotional tie you can't be as subjective as a simple "acquaintance" this gives her the margin to lash out without fearing abandonment the same, her personal stress ball if you like. Anyone else would just think "whatever" and walk away. Your personal tie resists this, hence making you vulnerable, which in turn does not demand respect.

When she lashes out just let it flow, get on with your life, stop adding to the cycle by trying to constantly clearing things up.

[Diana82]

thanks for your note... .

interesting you should refer to it as "all or nothing".  This is exactly what she accused me of wanting...

during her rage after I had asked why she avoided me, she said to me "you don't have to see each other every day to be friends! you seem to want all or nothing! "

... strange thing to say, considering I hadn't seen her for 2.5 months and never asked to see her everyday.

[Diana82]

In her recent text, she told me she doesn't know what it is I say/do she just doesn't feel herself around me.

And she also said she acts quite defensively and said she is not a 'fighter' so it's sad and strange when she acts that way.

She ended by saying she must need to learn some "life skill" and "we will then revisit this!"

Sounds like she almost wants to work on herself and why she acts like this with me.

I haven't replied for 2 days but I was thinking of not really discussing this issue and just saying something nice like I thought of her, when I went to the theatre show last night (as I went to see a show I know she'd like) and hope she has a nice week.

[waverider]

thanks for your note... .

interesting you should refer to it as "all or nothing".  This is exactly what she accused me of wanting...

during her rage after I had asked why she avoided me, she said to me "you don't have to see each other every day to be friends! you seem to want all or nothing! "

... strange thing to say, considering I hadn't seen her for 2.5 months and never asked to see her everyday.

The problem is your wants and needs wont always be in sync with hers. She cannot control the fact that her wants dont coincide with your availablity and her need to be alone dont coincide with you not being there. It is a lack of control, and is responded to with projecting the issue as yours

Sounds like she almost wants to work on herself and why she acts like this with me.

what she wants in the moment is not necessarily what she wants or acknowledges tomorrow. It is the lack of consistency of insight that prevents real progress.

It is best to take your mind off her, and let her come to you when she wants to, and if she doesn't just get on with your own stuff. Dont try negotiating compromise. While you are in her company and enjoy it stay there, if you are not disengage.

Your interaction is a choice, not an obligation, choose to do what is good for you, and choose not to do things that stress you.

[Diana82]

I see... .

Well, I tend to like to be on peaceful terms with people if it's possible.

And before both of her outbursts, she had said "I thought we could be friends... but"

and the last time she said "I thought we could be friends but you can't keep insulting me every week and shroud it in an apology with more nastiness!"

I don't know if we can be peaceful. But I am trying.  I sent her the message before. Unless she is emotionally deregulating, I think she will take it as nice...

[Diana82]

guess I am still struggling as to why she believes I called her a "bipolar junkie" and she used this against me three times in her outbursts. She still hasn't acknowledged I never said that. 

When the truth is, she made this joke about herself- and I referred to that joke only.

How can it be twisted around to now be me calling her that?

And when I clarified this with her in my voice message... she accused me of being nasty and "constantly rehashing the bipolar thing" when I should know it "upsets" her.

So, me standing up for myself and clarifying something means I am nasty and rehashing the "bipolar" thing.

I think if she believes in her distorted mind that I called her that... .no wonder she is upset with me!

[waverider]

Try to avoid the "but" word it tends to nullify anything that just preceded it.

A modest example of BPD projection thinking

NON version>>My bum looks big in these pants... (default mode it is her opinion unless you convince her otherwise)=no pressure to answer

pwBPD version>>Your thinking my bum looks big in these pants... (default mode is it is your opinion unless you convince her otherwise)= you start denying and slipping into JADE, with potential for issue to go off on a tangent.

Clarification can be seen as making excuses = guilty. As that is often the way a person with pwBPD behaves, so they read it the same

[Diana82]

Thanks waverider... .yes it seemed that me calling to clarify that I never called her that name... backfired on me. She thought I was being nasty.

It does feel like she has the ability to see how she overreacts and is irrational though.

Our first fight (3 months ago) involved her suddenly out of the blue messaging me saying "I'd get out if I were you".


And I said "huh? what do you mean?

she: "... get out of hanging with me. I oscillate between manic to mediocre and I'm always sad. I'm usually fun but I'm not at my best right now. You deserve someone fun and easy going. You should get out now"

Silence from me for an hour.

Then she wrote back saying  "I'm sorry... I am not trying to get rid of you! I just don't want to treat you badly. I keep freaking out all the time and I don't know if I can date! or even casually date! My moods are far from stable and that's not fair on you"

me:  "this is all very surprising to hear. Are you ok?  what happened? did I say something?"

And she proceeded to then tell me she had a fight with a friend of hers and said:  "I asked her a simple question and she made it into a drama and got angry at me. I try to create positive energy and I get this crap! I had a really bad day"

I then said "I'll leave you alone. I think you might need some space"

then she changed and said "that sounded serious "alone".  I understand if I'm not a good person for you to be around right now, but I'd be sad. I'll give you some space"

And I was thinking HUH! she is the one who had an outburst and I said I will give her space.

Then she said "thank you for being you".

This change happened all within 1 hour only!

Next day I didn't write to her at all and she texted me in the evening saying: "I was trying not to message you... but I miss you a bit extra today.

I wanted to apologise for last night. I couldn't figure out why you were being nice to me. And I was being self destructive.  I know I need to learn to deal with someone who is rational and kind x"

I remember she used to tell me she wasn't "used to people treating her nicely"  and then said she was being "self destructive" when pushing me away.

I suppose this should have been the red flag of BPD!

[Diana82]

to your knowledge, do BPDs have an issue with misinterpreting tone of voice? 

I have never been told by someone that my tone is abrupt or such.   But she told me during her rage that "I spend my days teaching small children and you work in the corporate world. It makes you very abrupt and business like.  Your tone is the hardest thing I find I have to protect myself from"

and then she later said "thank you for your apology. I will just ignore the tone of it".

[waverider]

to your knowledge, do BPDs have an issue with misinterpreting tone of voice? 

I have never been told by someone that my tone is abrupt or such.   But she told me during her rage that "I spend my days teaching small children and you work in the corporate world. It makes you very abrupt and business like.  Your tone is the hardest thing I find I have to protect myself from"

and then she later said "thank you for your apology. I will just ignore the tone of it".

This is a hard one. The reason being  that they are very sensitive to it. On the one hand they often correctly pick up on nuances that are true but you are unaware of yourself. Then at times, as you say, they can read it completly wrong in an almost paranoid way. Either way they are hyper sensitive to it, and so hardly take anything on pure face value.

[Take2]

I have to chime in and agree - my experience has been that my exBPD-bf is extremely good at picking up subtleties in my tone and in my body language that I don't even realize.  Yet that said, he is equally inaccurate about my tone and or facial expressions.  Countless times I have been criticized for my facial expression and critized for the tone I was using when I was being positive, happy, upbeat but told how horribly cruel I was being.  I thought I read something about those with BPD reading facial expressions as much more negatively than those without from some study somewhere.  Unfortunately I can't remember where I read that but that has absolutely applied with my ex... .  even with other people - he has many times asked me to read emails from coworkers to get my opinion about them being aggressive and I just didn't see it... .but to tell him that was equal to an argument... .  I would just try to be understanding.

Anyway - Between extremely intuitive observational skills combined with absolute paranoia... .  my ex at least interpreted most tones and expressions as negative... .  unless he was in a good mood... . 

[waverider]

Anyway - Between extremely intuitive observational skills combined with absolute paranoia... .  my ex at least interpreted most tones and expressions as negative... .  unless he was in a good mood... . 

I think this is an important aspect, on top of being hypersensitive to it, they also project/mirror their own feelings into their observations. This is the overwhelming dysregulated emotional mind not being tempered by the logical mind.

[Diana82]

this is very interesting indeed. Thank you both for your input... .

I think she also misinterprets facial expressions and behaviour.  I remember our first fight 2 months ago... I had had a stressful day and my Grandma was going into a nursing home.

I went to her house as we were going out dancing for the night... and she was taking a very long time to get ready and I was sitting around... and most likely looking a little down. And then I got introduced to all her housemates (she has several) at once and it was quite overwhelming for me. Two of them were tipsy and talking really loudly and I guess I was quieter as I didn't know them so well. But I was friendly... despite feeling a bit tired.

Anyway... .when we went out (with one of her housemates), she was completely distant all evening and scolded me for dropping a glass of wine in the bar. Like I was a child.

She wouldn't look at me all evening. Later we went back to her place and we were in bed and she then stopped being distant and kept saying to me "you seem distant... "

And I'd told her about my grandma and my tiredness already but said "it's ok... I just didn't have a great day... all good"

but she kept saying I was distant.  On reflection, I think she was scared of abandonment.

Next morning we were having breakfast and she was awkward. When I got up to leave and kiss her good bye she was all sad... and said "I don't know what to think now... you've been weird all weekend and distant"

And I said "I have?  I felt you were last night... I've just been a bit tired and sad... nothing major. Are we going out next week still?"

and she seemed really sad.

I ended up texting her an hour later and said "I'm sorry I was a bit down last night... just had an average day and wasn't my usual happy self. But I had a great night... hope you have a fun afternoon! xx"

No reply for 4 hours. Then she said "Sorry to hear about your gran. Take care of yourself"

A total brush off.  And I replied saying "thanks... are you ok? you seem a bit weird"

and she then said "actually... no. I felt you were rude and judgmental towards my friends last night and in  real hurry to go out"

I then replied and said "really?  how was I rude and judgemental? I'm quite upset you think this... I spent an hour playing guitar with your housemate to get to know him!"

I then called her and she was shy on the phone and said "ok... maybe I misread it. I'm just really sensitive right now and my ex used to not want me to be friends with certain people. She brought a lot of bad energy into my house and I'm trying to only bring good energy. Last night I felt bad energy... ."

I was rather stunned. And I said "well... I'm not your ex and wouldn't ever try to stop you from being friends with anyone. How come you didn't talk to me about this last night in bed?"

but she kept saying maybe she misread the entire situation and that she has 'emotional baggage".

I ended by saying "well... I understand everyone has some baggage but it's how you manage it. I'm here if you ever want to chat "

but this made her weirder and she said "Ok... I think I need space. This is getting a bit full on and I'm freaking out! I feel very vulnerable and exposed"   

[Diana82]

I didn't really understand BPD at the time or that she may have it... so that whole evening and day was very strange.

She didn't understand that I could have an off day... that I may be tired or sad- but that had nothing to do with her.  And she went from thinking I was distant... to accusing me of being rude to her friends (perhaps a way to push me away).

And then told me she needed space (obviously engulfed) and that she was feeling exposed and vulnerable,

At the time, I thought she was feeling vulnerable because of her break up with her ex. But is it common for BPDs to feel this way when they get close to someone?

[Diana82]

I do feel like replying to her text again (although I sent her the nice text yesterday) and say:

"I will add one thing... .I don't actually have the power to make anyone act a certain way. We are all responsible for our own emotions. So, I don't think it's very fair for you to blame me for you acting defensively. That's not in my control"

I feel like she needs to be told this. I think she is used to people just pandering to her and saying "sorry I make you feel like that".


It may make her explode who knows... but what have I got to lose now?  she's already deleted me off facebook and lashed out when I was being nice! 

[Diana82]

actually that sounds harsh...

maybe I could say "Hi. I will just add to previous... that I don't have the power to make anyone act a certain way. We're all responsible for our own emotions. I feel you tend to see nastiness when it's not there, or perhaps expect nastiness. But some people have good intentions".


I don't want to be her therapist... but at the same time, I feel she is a child and perhaps needs to be told this stuff. After all, she did say she needs to learn a "life skill".

Or does it come across as rude?