A Peek Inside My BPDs Mind, The Conversation

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

As some of you probably recall, I got a text Friday night from my stbX (or X... .she's still living in my house with me and our S3 and D1). That text was meant for her paramour. She is so disordered and confused, she never figured it out, though the way the phone works, the conversation string shows the exchanges on the screen.

I was in something like a panic all weekend, but managed to hold it together. It's probably better that I had a few days to ruminate, as the first reaction is often not the correct one. As I posted on Transactional Analysis, it's the Parent or Child ego state which gets triggered, not the Adult (mature and less emotional) ego state. Thus, I sorted through my feelings, and mapped out the conversation in my head.

A few of my friends said I should just start tossing her things out the door, but none of them are in my situation: with a mentally ill X partner, both of us having two small and beautiful children.

We both cooked dinner together and were sitting down at the table. I usually sit at the head of the table (no, it's not power tripping. I'm a big guy and just like the space). D1 and S3 sit next to me and then her. This time, S3 decides he likes my chair. D1 didn't want to sit in her high chair (first time, interesting... .), so she sat in S3's usual chair.

So I grudgingly sat next to my X. She was at the stove serving herself when her phone rang. It was right side up and I saw the POS's (Piece Of #!$%) name on it. She came over to answer, and I said, "Oh, it's your boyfriend... .REALLY? BPDx?" She replied, "He's not my boyfriend!" I told her that I got the text Friday evening that she had meant for him, where she called him "Love." She was silent. The kids continued eating. No, not heads down, because they are so young and spending so much time at their relative's home, it's hard for us to enforce good table manners at this point. They seemed oblivious, the little monsters. It was silent for a minute or so, until she offered meekly, "what do you want me to say, that I'm sorry?" (I heard this before, verbatim). By now I had eaten enough that I got up from the table and walked to the end of the kitchen for distance. I said, "What does it matter? You're still doing what you're doing. I still knew on some level, but throwing it in my face like this?"

He's not my boyfriend, I'm not sleeping with him." (may be true, may be not, irrelevant at this point)

I replied, "You still have a relationship with him. 'Love.' *bah*, give me a break. You know what his commitment to you is right now?" I held up my hand and made a zero sign. "And your commitment to him?" I made the sign with the other hand. Overlaying both, I looked through the holes both my hands had formed and said, "this is you two."

"What the heck is wrong with you? I know what's wrong with him. You think he's spiritual, reads the Bible and all that. That he's in touch with God. He may be in touch with something, X, but it's not God. And you're fully engulfed in it." Here she was kind of silent. We never raised our voices as she was in full guilt mode, and I felt stable. I said, "this is utter moral bankruptcy, by both of you. You told me a while ago that you needed someone to 'lead' and 'guide' you. Well, I'll lead you and guide you as we disengage to what's right and what's wrong. This is so wrong on so many levels. It's dysfunctional for me, and it's nothing short of use and abuse of me by both of you. You're now mirroring your parents' dysfunctional relationship in our home. And it's surely not good for our children. I have to lie sometimes to S3 when he asks where you are. I'm tired of being abused, you need to get out and do your thing somewhere else."

She also said that the POS had already noticed her tendency to get angry at certain things and it concerned him and that they talked about it. Tamping down my jealousy (and to be fair, I have disengaged from her for the past few months, barely standing to be in the same room as her), I told her, "he doesn't even get the real you yet. I provide a stable haven for you to reside in and stay safe, offering physical protection, security, and also no amount of emotional protection as well. You know what will happen when he gets all of you, and it won't be good."

Still not angry, she tried to go back and recycle things from our relationship. "You were more focused on painting the house [than me]" (actually, I paid someone to do it, so my time into that was minimal, but she perceived it another way. I told her, "our relationship and its dysfunction are a separate thing which will now never be worked out. Cheating and betrayal are a completely different thing than the break up. They are related, but really separate. Your dad's cheating has nothing to do with your mom and it never did. Yours ultimately says everything about you (and the POS). I have my issues, sure, but those are separate. The cheating is about you. There is nothing wrong with your mom. And there is nothing wrong with you that caused your dad to abandon you. It's all him."

Here we paused and talked about her behaviors and also the kids a little bit and me keeping her in line when I saw her acting out against our S3, which I told her concerned me. I also slipped in a little about how I thought this might be genetic, but that in all likelihood, our S3 might be here in 30 years having the same exact conversation with his sbtX.

She told me, "I wish I knew how to fix this." I said, "I know how I would fix it, but I can't tell you, or it won't be real. And I wouldn't do something like this to you in the first place anyway. There are two forces at work here, the spiritual and the psychological. I understand both now, especially the latter, but I really can't do much for you there other than to give you bits and pieces about specific things that you might want to think about and process." Earlier in the conversation she had accused me of something her dad did, and I said, "that's a Freudian term called Transference. I'm not your father. Look that one up later."

By this point, she was worn down. Neither of us were yelling. I felt a little emotional, but she more so, of course. She said, "I wish I could fix this, that we could start over, but I don't know how." I said, "I don't think it's possible to start over. And knowing how you attach to men, you would want to keep in contact with that guy, even as a friend, and that would be completely unacceptable and morally wrong. It would be continuing abuse of me." She said, "I'm just not ready for this." She meant two kids, a home we (I) owned, two careers; basically, a 3 dimensional relationship. I had told her that hers with that POS was 1 dimensional.

I felt like saying, "after all of this, NOW you decide that?" I kept it to myself, not wanting to inject the personal attack into the conversation. Just sticking to the facts, acknowledging her feelings ("I know you're confused right now, X... .but this abuse of me can't continue... .", stating my feelings, and defining the moral limits.

Near the end, she actually said, "I know there's something wrong with me, I know I'm sick." (!) I said, "I feel for you, and you and I know what's coming. With you, him, and you again. Because of the kids, I'll be around to watch it all." Sadly. I also told her that while I realized that there will be other men later that I will have to meet (due to our kids), that I never, EVERY want to meet that POS. Ever, understand? I got some tearful nodding in response.

There may have been more (like me talking to her about the childhood script that drives her), but that's about what I remember. She got up from the table, and I was trying to herd our kid-cats. We stood face to face and her tears started streaming. I felt moved to reach out to her, but I hesitated. I feel sad right now writing that. Providentially, D1 came to the rescue and came over to her to be picked up. X repeated that she was sorry, with even more tears streaming. I effused concern, but no tears of mine sprang forth. I have nothing left I want to give to her in that regard. D1 then wanted to be held by me.

Our gorgeous daughter who lights up every place she goes is the physical manifestation of the love we had, and also that which remains between us. She, and our beautiful son, who has a heart as big as the world, and are a blessing to everyone in our lives. They are the better angels of our natures. They bring joy wherever they go (when our son isn't throwing his own tantrums now and then). This is the family I wished for as a child, but never had.

This is the family I have, now broken. But its so much more than I did have even so. I love you S and D, so very, very much, and I will love you forever and ever.

[Turkish]

As some of you probably recall, I got a text Friday night from my stbX (or X... .she's still living in my house with me and our S3 and D1). That text was meant for her paramour. She is so disordered and confused, she never figured it out, though the way the phone works, the conversation string shows the exchanges on the screen.

I was in something like a panic all weekend, but managed to hold it together. It's probably better that I had a few days to ruminate, as the first reaction is often not the correct one. As I posted on Transactional Analysis, it's the Parent or Child ego state which gets triggered, not the Adult (mature and less emotional) ego state. Thus, I sorted through my feelings, and mapped out the conversation in my head.

A few of my friends said I should just start tossing her things out the door, but none of them are in my situation: with a mentally ill X partner, both of us having two small and beautiful children.

We both cooked dinner together and were sitting down at the table. I usually sit at the head of the table (no, it's not power tripping. I'm a big guy and just like the space). D1 and S3 sit next to me and then her. This time, S3 decides he likes my chair. D1 didn't want to sit in her high chair (first time, interesting... .), so she sat in S3's usual chair.

So I grudgingly sat next to my X. She was at the stove serving herself when her phone rang. It was right side up and I saw the POS's (Piece Of #!$%) name on it. She came over to answer, and I said, "Oh, it's your boyfriend... .REALLY? BPDx?" She replied, "He's not my boyfriend!" I told her that I got the text Friday evening that she had meant for him, where she called him "Love." She was silent. The kids continued eating. No, not heads down, because they are so young and spending so much time at their relative's home, it's hard for us to enforce good table manners at this point. They seemed oblivious, the little monsters. It was silent for a minute or so, until she offered meekly, "what do you want me to say, that I'm sorry?" (I heard this before, verbatim). By now I had eaten enough that I got up from the table and walked to the end of the kitchen for distance. I said, "What does it matter? You're still doing what you're doing. I still knew on some level, but throwing it in my face like this?"

He's not my boyfriend, I'm not sleeping with him." (may be true, may be not, irrelevant at this point)

I replied, "You still have a relationship with him. 'Love.' *bah*, give me a break. You know what his commitment to you is right now?" I held up my hand and made a zero sign. "And your commitment to him?" I made the sign with the other hand. Overlaying both, I looked through the holes both my hands had formed and said, "this is you two."

"What the heck is wrong with you? I know what's wrong with him. You think he's spiritual, reads the Bible and all that. That he's in touch with God. He may be in touch with something, X, but it's not God. And you're fully engulfed in it." Here she was kind of silent. We never raised our voices as she was in full guilt mode, and I felt stable. I said, "this is utter moral bankruptcy, by both of you. You told me a while ago that you needed someone to 'lead' and 'guide' you. Well, I'll lead you and guide you as we disengage to what's right and what's wrong. This is so wrong on so many levels. It's dysfunctional for me, and it's nothing short of use and abuse of me by both of you. You're now mirroring your parents' dysfunctional relationship in our home. And it's surely not good for our children. I have to lie sometimes to S3 when he asks where you are. I'm tired of being abused, you need to get out and do your thing somewhere else."

She also said that the POS had already noticed her tendency to get angry at certain things and it concerned him and that they talked about it. Tamping down my jealousy (and to be fair, I have disengaged from her for the past few months, barely standing to be in the same room as her), I told her, "he doesn't even get the real you yet. I provide a stable haven for you to reside in and stay safe, offering physical protection, security, and also no amount of emotional protection as well. You know what will happen when he gets all of you, and it won't be good."

Still not angry, she tried to go back and recycle things from our relationship. "You were more focused on painting the house [than me]" (actually, I paid someone to do it, so my time into that was minimal, but she perceived it another way. I told her, "our relationship and its dysfunction are a separate thing which will now never be worked out. Cheating and betrayal are a completely different thing than the break up. They are related, but really separate. Your dad's cheating has nothing to do with your mom and it never did. Yours ultimately says everything about you (and the POS). I have my issues, sure, but those are separate. The cheating is about you. There is nothing wrong with your mom. And there is nothing wrong with you that caused your dad to abandon you. It's all him."

Here we paused and talked about her behaviors and also the kids a little bit and me keeping her in line when I saw her acting out against our S3, which I told her concerned me. I also slipped in a little about how I thought this might be genetic, but that in all likelihood, our S3 might be here in 30 years having the same exact conversation with his sbtX.

She told me, "I wish I knew how to fix this." I said, "I know how I would fix it, but I can't tell you, or it won't be real. And I wouldn't do something like this to you in the first place anyway. There are two forces at work here, the spiritual and the psychological. I understand both now, especially the latter, but I really can't do much for you there other than to give you bits and pieces about specific things that you might want to think about and process." Earlier in the conversation she had accused me of something her dad did, and I said, "that's a Freudian term called Transference. I'm not your father. Look that one up later."

By this point, she was worn down. Neither of us were yelling. I felt a little emotional, but she more so, of course. She said, "I wish I could fix this, that we could start over, but I don't know how." I said, "I don't think it's possible to start over. And knowing how you attach to men, you would want to keep in contact with that guy, even as a friend, and that would be completely unacceptable and morally wrong. It would be continuing abuse of me." She said, "I'm just not ready for this." She meant two kids, a home we (I) owned, two careers; basically, a 3 dimensional relationship. I had told her that hers with that POS was 1 dimensional.

I felt like saying, "after all of this, NOW you decide that?" I kept it to myself, not wanting to inject the personal attack into the conversation. Just sticking to the facts, acknowledging her feelings ("I know you're confused right now, X... .but this abuse of me can't continue... .", stating my feelings, and defining the moral limits.

Near the end, she actually said, "I know there's something wrong with me, I know I'm sick." (!) I said, "I feel for you, and you and I know what's coming. With you, him, and you again. Because of the kids, I'll be around to watch it all." Sadly. I also told her that while I realized that there will be other men later that I will have to meet (due to our kids), that I never, EVERY want to meet that POS. Ever, understand? I got some tearful nodding in response.

There may have been more (like me talking to her about the childhood script that drives her), but that's about what I remember. She got up from the table, and I was trying to herd our kid-cats. We stood face to face and her tears started streaming. I felt moved to reach out to her, but I hesitated. I feel sad right now writing that. Providentially, D1 came to the rescue and came over to her to be picked up. X repeated that she was sorry, with even more tears streaming. I effused concern, but no tears of mine sprang forth. I have nothing left I want to give to her in that regard. D1 then wanted to be held by me.

Our gorgeous daughter who lights up every place she goes is the physical manifestation of the love we had, and also that which remains between us. She, and our beautiful son, who has a heart as big as the world, and are a blessing to everyone in our lives. They are the better angels of our natures. They bring joy wherever they go (when our son isn't throwing his own tantrums now and then). This is the family I wished for as a child, but never had.

This is the family I have, now broken. But its so much more than I did have even so. I love you S and D, so very, very much, and I will love you forever and ever.

[Turkish]

One part of the conversation I forgot to add was me venting my feelings:

"You know, a month ago, I felt I was special to you because you chose me to have children with. But then I remembered that you tried so desperately to have them with your X" (a guy she was with not quite two years before me. "He ended up leaving you anyway, and would have left sooner with that responsibility, but you found me. You just wanted someone to use to give you children." She was still a bit tearful and sounded sincere when she said, "No. It was YOU I chose to have them with, due to the qualities I saw in YOU. I know you're the right guy, I'm just not ready for this."

Still don't believe it, but maybe on some level all of what she said is true... .to her. I guess there is no "truth" to be found there, so I should stop searching for it and deal with what is.

[Ironmanrises]

You can see the paradox in her words. "I know you're the right guy, I'm just not ready for this." Absolutely saddening and maddening. What do you do with such a paradox? I commend you for staying level headed with her at the dinner table. I know that was not easy for you at all.

[Turkish]

You can see the paradox in her words. "I know you're the right guy, I'm just not ready for this." Absolutely saddening and maddening. What do you do with such a paradox? I commend you for staying level headed with her at the dinner table. I know that was not easy for you at all.

Yep. Major paradox. And thankfully, I'm not going to try to "fix" it. Thanks to you, and everyone here for the support and understanding regarding what is going on.

[LaSuede]

How did the kids take it? Did they say anything after the dinner... ?

[Turkish]

How did the kids take it? Did they say anything after the dinner... ?

Naw. D17 mos "talks", but she's happy and all over the place. S3 is pretty sharp, but is also a bit OCD so he was focused on his toys in the living room. I did an autism screen for D1 recently and she didn't meet any of the criteria. S3 met 3/20 though... .kind of concerns me, but sometimes it's like he's at a different level. When he plays, he is normal and interacts well with others. He does happen to "zone out" like his mom does sometimes. If the BPD is inheritable in their family, I'll deal with it then.

Like I said, we didn't raise our voices at all. I just want her out, and will be prodding her every other day now. Not looking forward to having little money all of a sudden by paying her CS and child care, but it is what it is. As I told her, I don't want them messed up because they witness the mirror of their grandparents' dysfunctional relationship, though they put on a good face. I HATE lying, even for "good" reasons. I don't want my kids thinking this is normal. I'll keep telling her that, too. She isn't connected enough to her paramour to move in with him. She is desperate to attach to men, but also paranoid and distrustful of them. Running a background check means nothing, really (she does this to her bfs), and she knows that. More paradoxical BPD thinking.

[LaSuede]

Hmm, sounds like fantastic kids!

I would not worry so much about a diagnose for the middle one... .

Playing in your own world could be a way to deal with the issues of his mother (and your relationship), as much as anything else... .I did. As a kid. Got into my world.

And dealing with it is not only bad, if there is one adult that sees you regularly and gets into that world. That means a lot.

My niece is partly autistic, have a few issues, and playing with others are the most significant.

Good strategy: deal with that when/if needing to deal with it and be here-and-now for the rest. You seem like a great dad. Yes, I agree, honesty is important with kids as much as choice of language for different situations and ages.

I see that with mine at least. Some kind of transparency is more safe than feeling uncertainty under the surface.

And how wonderful they all have each other!

My biggest son means the whole world to my smallest that has a father with BPD.

[GreenMango]

Turkish that sounds like one of those talks where you just know its over.  That's really hard.

The kids are so important.  You mentioned having to pay her child support.  You may not have to pay her that if you have custody or split custody where you each pay your own.  You may still have to pay alimony. 

It doesn't sound like you are trying to punish her which is good, but maybe check with the legal board on this because you might end up punishing yourself and the kids when the money would best serve those kids staying with you to provide for them. 

We can often enable the person by picking up the financial slack.  I did it by getting mine jobs. 

"I wish I could fix this, that we could start over, but I don't know how."

This right here is poignant because we can totally enable them to never figure it out.  Not saying that you want her back, just that she's could be sheilded from the natural consequences of choices that most people face when making bad choices.

It's not as easy as just kicking her out obviously, but maybe a its time to set deadline.

[Turkish]

Turkish that sounds like one of those talks where you just know its over.  That's really hard.

Thanks, GM. I know it's over. She apparently, doesn't. She's "split" something approximating a real relationship between two people. That's mega dysfunctional. And I get all the bad, that POS gets all of the good.

The kids are so important.  You mentioned having to pay her child support.  You may not have to pay her that if you have custody or split custody where you each pay your own.  You may still have to pay alimony. 

We're not married, so no alimony. I already saw a lawyer and got the rough state guideline amounts I would have to pay based upon our incomes and 50/50. I make over twice what she does, so I will end up paying a good portion of her rent, not including half of childcare. It is actually enough for her to get by. She's just stalling because she's comfortable. I'm going to keep pushing for her original December commitment to get out.

It doesn't sound like you are trying to punish her which is good, but maybe check with the legal board on this because you might end up punishing yourself and the kids when the money would best serve those kids staying with you to provide for them.

She knows this, which is why she verbally asked for a few hundred a month less than guideline. I think they would be best with me, and she could see them enough... .but it is a delicate age and everyone I've talked to, professionally, says that they need to see each of us at least every 2-3 days due to attachments. As long as she is stable, it will work. If she is unstable, I'll probably just end up with them more... .kind of like it has been for the past year with all of her going out, though granted most of it was at night after they were asleep. 

We can often enable the person by picking up the financial slack.

She has a stable career-type job. She doesn't just make much money for where we live. I tried gently pushing her for years to advance, but it's her lack of self esteem which holds her back.

"I wish I could fix this, that we could start over, but I don't know how."

This right here is poignant because we can totally enable them to never figure it out.  Not saying that you want her back, just that she's could be shielded from the natural consequences of choices that most people face when making bad choices.

It's not as easy as just kicking her out obviously, but maybe a its time to set deadline.

Yep. I'll be the adult now more than ever. This will serve to separate her in my own mind from being a former lover, as I advance and she reverts, widening the maturity gap which was already great. This would mirror the past year where I embraced being a father of 2, and she reverted towards teenage behavior, something even her mother saw, causing friction between them. I just fear major depression for her as she and that guy connect more once she is out, and/or one of them discards the other. He's a college kid, what the heck does he want with an older (though she could pass for his age) waif with two kids and an angry, civilian-level combat-trained X in the background?

[GreenMango]

He's a college kid, what the heck does he want with an older (though she could pass for his age) waif with two kids and an angry, civilian-level combat-trained X in the background?

Romance. Possibility of sex. 


He's only getting the good stuff.  I'm guessing he doesn't know too much about you guys.  The real life is just backgound static ... .For now.

I'm sorry your story is really heartbreaking.  I do think you are getting a good handle on things and that means it will get better.  There will be a time where she's a distant chapter in your life and the new chapter is happier.

[Turkish]

He's a college kid, what the heck does he want with an older (though she could pass for his age) waif with two kids and an angry, civilian-level combat-trained X in the background?

Romance. Possibility of sex. 

Hi GM, yes. I wrote the dumbest thing yet. Of course that's it. I guess my "empathy" is too centered around me yet. I compare myself when I was his age WAY further along in life than this kid. I sense a bit of the co-dependant in him, also (especially if he didn't lie to her about his background some of which she shared with me the week or so I thought I could save our r/s). But my first judgement is right: he's a wolf in sheep's clothing and she needs to find that out.

He doesn't want commitment, and she can't handle it, even though on some level she wants it. Too scary. So they will be two black holes, circling each other until *blam*. And I'll have to freaking be around to witness it.

He's only getting the good stuff. 

Which she knows on some level, which is another reason why she's dragging her feet on not leaving because our home provides emotional stability and security. She told me that he already has picked up on her anger over little things. I'll give him a little credit for noticing. In the beginning, I shut down and denied it for a long time. Maybe he will be the "right guy" for her? LOL.

I'm guessing he doesn't know too much about you guys.  The real life is just backgound static ... .For now.

I don't know about that. She obviously plaid the unloved "waif" well. But she told him about our kids, and the message I found of hers to him over a month ago was about "therapy helping Turkish, because he's been nicer to me lately." Her lack of boundaries is typical. I will ask her soon to see if she told him my (and my kids' last name. That is unacceptable. Who knows what he might do if things go south and he's so messed up that he wants to connect with me to try to understand her. He's a kid, but also might be one of "those." Obsessive. The fact that she said he wanted to meet our son (not our daughter?) concerned the hell out of me. I told her that, too. Might be nothing, might be sign of an attachment disorder of his own.

I'm sorry your story is really heartbreaking.  I do think you are getting a good handle on things and that means it will get better.  There will be a time where she's a distant chapter in your life and the new chapter is happier.

Thanks, GM. It was hard standing next to her last night while we were putting the kids to sleep. Like I wanted to reach out and touch her. She might have accepted it, too. But I held myself strong.

We exchanged a text string last night. She wanted to go out to dinner with the kids. I sent a long text back saying that I still could barely stand to be in the same room as her, and that I felt she still didn't appreciate the magnitude of what she is doing, nor my feelings. She sent a kind of apologetic message back saying that she understood and felt more than I thought, and the typical piling on of guilt on her side, that she deserved this. I replied that she never deserved the pain, guilt, and abandonment heaped on her before our relationship, but that she needed to take responsibility of the choices she was making in the here and now.

Then she was online looking for apartments again, like studios. I don't think it's unrealistic with two little kids, as they don't have to spend much time there except to sleep. I would even help her for a deposit for a 1-bedroom later once she gets her new budget under control (for CS, I'm technically supposed to give a cut of bonuses and capital gains, so realistically, it's not devaluing myself to toss her an extra $1K some time next year).

The last text I sent was that she didn't deserve any of what came before. And that when she was ready to confront the root of all of this inside of her, I'd be there for support, if only for the kids.

Short of being committed to a psych ward, I doubt that day will ever come. But who knows? Maybe a future bf will end up here. Based on the quality of the men she goes after, not bloody likely though.

[newlife3]

Glad your focused on the best interests of your children... If you read the posts on here, that "waif" types often end up abandoning their children and leaving them with the fathers for primary custody, or voluntarily agree to limited contact with their kids due to their emotional neediness, fragileness and lack of maturity...

They are "love junkies' and the new partners take priority over their kids.

So consider your custody options carefully, not just for now, but for the long term, as your kids are very young. BPD have difficulties parenting (christina Lawson the BPD Mother) so you will have to provide the stability and safety for your children!

All the best!