The court process is glacially slow.

[Nope]

It's been totally quiet since she was served with the Contempt and Change of Custody motions. We got a date for the pretrial in late December. She's been through three lawyers already and even though she told my fiance that she has a new lawyer I have not seen or heard any evidence that this new lawyer actually exists.

I'm getting myself all upset because I think she's going to show up for court in late December (after having known for over a month she needs a lawyer) and ask to have the pretrial hearing postponed to either find a new lawyer or get the one she'll get the day before court all caught up.

We've been trying to get something in front of a judge for a year and a half now. We had to pull the filing back in August because we had a medical issue come up that kept us out of court. She has managed to get things postponed in the past by switching lawyers at the last minute.

The major thing the pretrial hearing will cover is a) the judge will decide if we have enough reason to proceed with a custody case and b) if the custody investigation we are asking for is warranted. Is she really going to have to have a fully caught up lawyer before we can get even that established?

[david]

I think if you can show she has been changing lawyers several times you may be able tio convince a judge that things should proceed as scheduled. My ex officially retained her atty the friday before our hearing on monday morning. She hired the atty at 4:45 on friday so nothing could be done. The next hearing date she filed on friday at 4:35 a petition to modify custody. The judge decided to put both petitions together and required a custody eval. I had an email where ex didn't want a custody ecal and I didn't want one either but the judge said he would hear the petitions only if a custody eval was done. This is just extending the hearing another two months since I requested a expedited eval. I've been dealing with this kind of stuff since 2007. I started with eow and two weeks in the summer and am currently seeking a minimum of 50/50.

[scraps66]

One thing about having an attorney, it creates a definitive line of communication between parties.  To a BP, this kind of eliminates one mode of control, passive-aggressive control by not communicating.  My ex used this a s a defense, and my L at the time used it to stretch my case out - lawyers only like communicating with lawyers.  So, my ex went months without a lawyer.  it was this same time that i was tring to close the settlement phase.  Obviously ex did not want this as I was paying the mortgage for the house she and her bf were living in.  Add to that an incompetent 80+ yr old master for ED, and the court gave me just three equitable distirbution conferences over a 19 MONTH PERIOD with no resoltion.  I would then wait another FOUR MONTHS for an actula trila to close the settlement.  It was at this point that my ex chose to get an attorney.

What I also learned through this time period, some lawyers will put your case at the bottom of the list if they know the other side is stonewalling or stalling.  We had sent numerous offers to settle, my ex not having an attroney for most of that time, jsut said she didn't receive any of the offers.  Some lawyers just don't want to deal with this type of BS because it takes away from time they can use on other cases.

So my point, jsut because she has an attorney, it doesn't necessarily mean that things will move along.  I think it's better that she does, than not, due to the ability to communicate.   

[Nope]

Thanks guys. It's just so frustrating so much of the time. I don't understand how somebody with absolutely no money or resources to fight us still seems to have all the power in the situation. She gets more done by doing nothing than we do by pushing hard for a resolution.

I wrote an email to our lawyer to get some "what if" information. Our lawyer had good things to say about this magistrate so maybe she'll have some insight on what is likely to occur.

[ForeverDad]

Sometimes comments are made here where it seems mothers get the benefit of the doubt more often that fathers do.  Yeah, I'm in that camp.  But guess what?  Mothers who are members here also report a surprisingly long term struggle with an obstructive ex and courts which give undue attention to unsubstantiated claims.  So while one gender seems to still get a unwritten and unstated default preference, it also seems the judges notice the squeaky wheel and try to avoid scenes, more conflict, etc.  The judges have to deal with the prospect of appeals, probably too the desire not to be listed in the news as the judge where there was subsequent violence.

In my case... .

• It took a year for my domestic court to order my son's therapy agency to release already statutory right for access to his records.  Hmm, for some reason the therapists thought I was a suspected child abuser even though I had the usual father-gets-alternate-weekends schedule in the temp orders.



• It took two years to resolve the divorce case.  Meanwhile ex made innumerable unsubstantiated allegations to every agency and facility imaginable, none substantiated of course.



• Three more years to do Change of Circumstances to end the Shared Parenting and get custody.  I tried to get majority parenting time too but GAL (Guardian ad Litem, child's lawyer) thought getting custody would be enough to end the obstruction and wanted ex to get child support.  Sorry, paperwork looked nice but no change.



• Two and a half years - and counting - currently seeking majority parenting time.  That's right, 8 years separated/divorced, I have custody but I'm still struggling to get majority time.



• During this time she's had 3-4 lawyers and I have been paying either child support or alimony due to my ex being imputed minimum wage, she's never submitted proof of income.

There are several excuses for the glacial slowness.  Courts have full dockets.  Judges are slow to make decisions since they don't want to buck the past policies of the court, don't want to risk appeals finding fault with their decisions.  It's been commented too that the courts expect most parents to get fed up with the slow rate of resolution and figure out some faster solution in mediation, conferences and settlements.  Too bad we're in the other group of parents - the ones without reasonable spouses.

[scraps66]

One thing I began to realzie in my case, it is impossible to plot or predict with certainty the actions of someone afflcited with BPD, or worse.  Circumstances may be more or less severe based on the individual, but some of these people spend every waking moment of their life plotting, planning, fabricating and distorting - they become experts and it becomes second nature.  us "nons" and rationally thinking people are at a disadvantage in that we don't live our l ives like that and consequently cannot "think" or feel the way BP's do. 

BTW, my experience is the same wiht spending 10s of $100s of dollars to achieve very subtle results when ex's lack of action woudl gain her more ground.  I think you will find this to be the case all over this board.  Very truthful worse, "this is not a sprint, this is a marathon to the finish."  Maybe a triathlon.   

[DreamGirl]

For whatever it may be worth - it did count against my oldest son's biological father when he prolonged the proceedings. Same kind of thing - waited until the 11th hour to do anything. He actually showed up with his pay stub at the first day of trial... .I filed a motion to compel months before.

I did get awarded attorney's fees (didn't actually receive them, but whatever)

Hopefully with this much notice and it's a pretrial hearing, there won't be too much lolly-gagging allowed. 

I'm getting myself all upset

   

I know this feeling - and it will be OK. Just gotta keep moving forward.

[Matt]

Can your lawyer be prepared - assuming she will try to get a delay at the last minute - to state opposition, and give good reasons?  Maybe cite the law or some case law to support a ruling denying the delay?

Delays are often given as a matter of courtesy;  either both lawyers agree behind their clients' backs, or the judge rubber-stamps the delay without much consideration.  Your lawyer may have to act fast - speak up quickly to say that you oppose any delay, and give good reasons why another delay is not in the kids' interest.

[Nope]

I did get awarded attorney's fees (didn't actually receive them, but whatever)

Hopefully with this much notice and it's a pretrial hearing, there won't be too much lolly-gagging allowed. 

I'm so confused by contempt awards and L fee awards. Nobody ever actually seems to ever get the $ they are awarded. It's like a big joke. Judges seem to have a lot of pride. I would think they'd get more angry when money owed doesn't get paid.

I am also hoping this will be a badly played hand for her. I think if she spent as much time online looking for a lawyer as she spends on Match looking for a boyfriend she'd be all set by now.

Can your lawyer be prepared - assuming she will try to get a delay at the last minute - to state opposition, and give good reasons?  Maybe cite the law or some case law to support a ruling denying the delay?

Yes the L is set with a bunch of reasons we don't agree with a delay. I guess I just have no confidence that given the stakes a judge will make any decisions with a custodial parent not having adequate representation. Even if she got herself into this mess.

[Matt]

It's a marathon not a sprint.  Asking for legal fees is just one way to say, "I'm serious."

I agree with you, it's bizarre that judges seem to want to be taken seriously, but when it comes to enforcing court orders, and getting cases done without excessive delays, they seem unwilling to do the obvious, and hold accountable the person who's not playing by the rules... .

[ForeverDad]

Can your lawyer be prepared - assuming she will try to get a delay at the last minute - to state opposition, and give good reasons?  Maybe cite the law or some case law to support a ruling denying the delay?

Yes the L is set with a bunch of reasons we don't agree with a delay. I guess I just have no confidence that given the stakes a judge will make any decisions with a custodial parent not having adequate representation. Even if she got herself into this mess.

It's fairly easy for a spouse/parent to get a continuance, maybe even two.  But then the judge starts getting peeved and isn't so willing to rubber stamp a motion for continuance.  If there have already been continuances, then your lawyer needs to remind the court of the prior events.

Be aware that lawyers often extend a "professional courtesy" to the other lawyers and agree to delays reasoning that the judge will allow the first few motions anyway.  In protracted cases like ours we can't afford to be so magnanimous.  In this case your lawyer can respond to a continuance motion stating, "The {respondent/petitioner} has had _ months to locate and hire a lawyer. We ask the motion be denied but if the court chooses to approve a continuance we ask that the delay be kept to a bare minimum."  You may or may not succeed, but at least you tried.

As an example in my case, last year my ex's attorney filed for a continuance stating his client was under a doctor's care for a physical complaint.  Problem was, only lawyers were required to attend the pre-trial hearing anyway.   So it was denied.  I think the magistrate even held one such hearing by telephone conference.  Of the 5 or so motions for continuance in the 15 month post-divorce matter, I believe one may have been my attorney, one the GAL and 3-4 ex's attorney.

[Matt]

Be aware that lawyers often extend a "professional courtesy" to the other lawyers and agree to delays reasoning that the judge will allow the first few motions anyway.

Yes, this is an example where what is good for the lawyers may not be good for the clients.  And they work for us, so we (clients) have the right to make this call.

My suggestion would be, talk about this with your attorney, and make it clear that you do not want her to agree to any delay proposed by the other side, without your approval.  If there is a reason you agree with, like a death in someone's family, then you can approve the delay.  But if it's just a professional courtesy between the lawyers - which is pretty common - you can say, "No, do not agree to that."  The judge may approve the delay anyway, but you will be on record as opposing delays without a good reason, and if you do that consistently, over time it might minimize the delays.

[livednlearned]

I did get awarded attorney's fees (didn't actually receive them, but whatever)

Hopefully with this much notice and it's a pretrial hearing, there won't be too much lolly-gagging allowed. 

I'm so confused by contempt awards and L fee awards. Nobody ever actually seems to ever get the $ they are awarded. It's like a big joke. Judges seem to have a lot of pride. I would think they'd get more angry when money owed doesn't get paid.

I have a hearing next week about this -- it's an Order for Sanctions. N/BPDx owes me legal fees from two hearings. I'll let you know how it goes! I think the reason people never get the money is because it costs money in legal fees to retrieve the legal fees   so it has to be enough to warrant hiring a lawyer to get it.

In my case, I'll get about $1K, the rest pays off my attorney. But you know what? It's worth it. Three years ago, I would've been too terrified to step on this hornet's nest. Now, I am doing it because my backbone grew in.

[DreamGirl]

I'll let you know how it goes! I think the reason people never get the money is because it costs money in legal fees to retrieve the legal fees   so it has to be enough to warrant hiring a lawyer to get it.

This is why I didn't do it. I would have had to hire a different attorney to get them.

It took me another 10 months just to start receiving child support. I also have yet to ever be reimbursed for medical bills.

I was tapped out emotionally and financially. I wasn't fearful or broke per say - just over the fight. It cost me $800-ish to get him served the first time (he resides in a different country) only to have him skip out on the hearing. It was so exhausting and disappointing everytime that it failed.

My attorney also really pushed for a higher child support amount - went thru the motions to argue that his overtime was mandatory - Judge met him about halfway. So the child support I receive is relatively substantial and I feel like it makes up for the amount that didn't get paid.

   

I think we all make our own peace with it. It was nice knowing that I could have if I wanted to. I made the choice not to, not for him... but for my own sake.

I really was just over it and wanted out of the cycle of conflict with someone who absolutely did not believe in playing by the rules. 

[Nope]

Well. Got word back from our L. It was actually OK news but not as good as I had hoped. Turns out that this pre-trial really is very preliminary and the focus is only on deciding if a custody investigation is warranted. This comes down entirely to our complaint and our evidence. So if the BPD mom doesn't have an L it really won't matter. She can't stonewall this.

The crummy part is that there will be another pre-trial after the custody investigation. And then we finally go to court. So, yeah, a marathon not a sprint. Got it. At least according to the L, the timing is lining up so that we should have a decision by the end of the school year so that the kids, if they are moved, won't have to change schools mid year.

[Nope]

If she hasn't had a lawyer she couldn't have stonewalled this. But apparently havig her lawyer announce her existence at the 11th hour stating that she will not be available the next day and asking for a continuance has put a huge wrench in the works. Our L said we could try to fight it but this is a new judge on our case and we would just lose. However, she is going to ask the court to make it for less than thirty days as apparently protocol is that they were supposed to give us at least a weeks notice.

We are obviously frustrated but I do feel like this gets the continuance stuff out of the way. We let it go once. We probably won't need to do it again.

Of course, as a last middle finger in our direction, her L waited until right before close of business to file so our L hasn't gotten any word from the court. This means our L has to show up (waste our money) just in case it didn't get filed.

I think the BPD has found herself a "good" one this time... .

[Matt]

Make sure your lawyer points out to the court every time the other lawyer pulls a trick like that.  It won't make things better now but over time the judge will see who is making things complicated, slow and expensive.

[Nope]

Well, we found out yesterday that our lawyer did a good job advocating for us over the pretrial continuance. The judge apparently decided to deny the continuance, treated the meeting with our L as the pretrial, and give us a court date for late January for the first part of the custody hearing. I get the sense that this judge saw right through what the other L was pulling. That gives me some hope .   

[ForeverDad]

Well, we found out yesterday that our lawyer did a good job advocating for us over the pretrial continuance. The judge apparently decided to deny the continuance, treated the meeting with our L as the pretrial... .

This is what my court did.  Once my ex's lawyer motioned for continuance because ex was "under doctors care" and so couldn't attend but it was denied because she didn't have to be there.  Another time they had the hearing by telephone conference.  It's good that the judge and your lawyer stopped these games at the very start of the case, at least for now.

[DreamGirl]

Finally!

Doesn't seem like it in the beginning, but I think Judges usually will only allow so much.

[livednlearned]

 

(Omigosh all these celebrating emoticons! )

 9          

I'm happy for you, Nope. It comes down to the judge, much of it anyway. And this is a really good sign.

I don't even know what half of these emoticons are doing. Some of them are clearly over celebrating!  

[Nope]

Ahh. Spoke too soon. It appears this situation will be living up to the name of this thread.

Her L appears to have gotten herself injured over the holidays and is now requesting a continuance while she goes in for back surgery and will apparently not be well enough recovered until two weeks after surgery. At best, this would move phase one of the custody hearing to late February or early March. But anyone can see the writing on the wall for her to end up getting another continuance later when the healing doesn't go as smoothly as is now being predicted.

As she has now had this L for less than a month, and there is still a good couple of weeks before we even have to hand her side our exhibits, we are going to have our L fight it and maybe see if the judge will tell her to get another L. We already paid for plane tickets since this is out of state and this is a huge inconvenience. *sigh* It'll be interesting to see how this one plays out.

[sfbayjed]

it is really so slow that the metaphors should be inverted.

Glaciers can move several feet per day, The fastest-moving glacier ever recorded is the Quarayaq Glacier in Greenland, which has traveled 80 feet in one day.

They slowest glaciers are the continental glaciers. They move about as fast as the family court process. 

[livednlearned]

Family court must be where head-banging originated from. Or maybe it's PD + family court. Some days I feel like I've accepted it, other days I feel like it's going to push me over the edge. I have a good L, and honestly, cannot imagine this process without someone who has her level of empathy and sense of humor. She has also discounted some of my bills, and has offered me to stay at her beach house. Without those small kindnesses, I think this stuff would make me feel despondent.

[Matt]

Family court must be where head-banging originated from. Or maybe it's PD + family court. Some days I feel like I've accepted it, other days I feel like it's going to push me over the edge. I have a good L, and honestly, cannot imagine this process without someone who has her level of empathy and sense of humor. She has also discounted some of my bills, and has offered me to stay at her beach house. Without those small kindnesses, I think this stuff would make me feel despondent.

Stress management is a whole lot of what this is about.  For me it was counseling, cardiovascular exercise, music, baseball, talking with family and friends (including my friends here), and some very long walks.  For others it's prayer, meditation, parcheesi - whatever works.

Pushing back against the process didn't work for me at all.  Understanding the process and using it to my (and my kids' benefit worked somewhat.  Managing my stress for the long haul is what helped the most.

[Nope]

Thanks guys. Yes, I very often feel like banging my head against a wall. I know they want to encourage people to just work it out amongst themselves as often as possible, but is all this uncertainty and giving a PD parent that much more time to screw them up really in the best interests of the children? In my case we are dealing with a certain amount of blatant child neglect and emotional abuse. Not bad enough that CPS would do anything for them, but certainly bad enough that it will have a real impact and they'll both need therapy.

There are two parts to this custody case. Part 1 is determining if there has been a "significant change of circumstances" from when both parties signed the parenting plan. That's it. If we can't prove that something has significantly changed then we can't go on to the next phase where we show all the reasons the kids would be better off with us.So everything rides on that. We have a few issues we intend to bring up to prove a significant change. But the longer she can hold off going to court, the more time she has to start to fix the most provable and compelling issues. For example, the sleeping arrangement in the two bedroom house that she is renting is not really acceptable. If between now and when we go to court she finds a new place (in the same school district) to live that has more rooms we lose that. The housing situation is easy to prove and would probably be considered significant enough.

I also worry because last time we were in court for the first round of Contempt a couple of things she had done were considered "stale" by the court. Meaning, it happened to long ago for the court to be interested even though it was a clear act of contempt. I really worry that the longer it takes to get into court the more likely it is that the judge will start considering our evidence stale. Especially since once she was served this time she began immediately doing things like actually taking them to the doctors and other such appointments. I don't want a judge to sit there and decide she must have turned over a new leaf and should be given another chance.

[Matt]

I had a similar problem:  I had (foolishly) agreed to give my wife primary physical custody, with every-other-weekend for me.  I did that before I hired a lawyer, when I was very upset, and [fill in any other excuse you can think of for me here].

The change of circumstances I cited was my own understanding.  I said, "That was before I knew about BPD - before I knew that my wife had a serious mental illness."  Which meant I had to show some reason why I believed she had a serious mental illness.

The evidence I cited was, "Our marriage counselor - who my wife chose - told me that she believes my wife may have BPD."  The other side fought it, of course.  So we arranged for both lawyers to talk to the counselor.  I gave my lawyer detailed notes from the meeting when the counselor told me "I think Ms. Matt probably has BPD.", and my lawyer read those notes to the counselor, and asked, "Is that a good summary of the discussion you had with Mr. Matt in early November of last year?", and the counselor said "Yes".

So... . it was established that I had good reason to believe my wife may have a serious mental illness that would impact her ability to parent.  (It was not established, at that moment, that she actually had BPD or anything else.  Later I filed a motion for the court to appoint a Custody Evaluator, a Ph.D. psychologist, who administered the MMPI-2 psych evals to both of us, and that enabled him to diagnose my with with BPD and other stuff.)

Since that was established, it was a "change of circumstances" - I was now aware of something - the likelihood that my wife had BPD - which I wasn't aware of at the time I agreed to give her primary physical custody.  The court had never ruled on custody, so I wasn't bound by what I had agreed to - we told the court, "That was before I knew about BPD - I would never agree to that now." - and the agreement was moot.

[Nope]

Yes, "that was before I knew x y and z" is going to be part of our argument. My SO signed the parenting plan that the parties agreed to and the his BPDex sat on it and didn't sign until the day she couldn't avoid court anymore... . which ended up being like six months later. So technically anything she did prior to mid 2011 isn't supposed to count against her. Except that had we known about the arrest, the domestic calls by the neighbors, the vandalism complaints by neighbors and the apartment front office, the two large credit card judgements, etc.

Unfortunately, we have no bases for bringing up the BPD as there was no prior counseling and getting the court to order tests would be a long and very expensive process by itself.

I'm wondering if the court will listen to positive changes ofccircumstance on our end? Examples: SO buying a house where each child has their own room. Or SO no longer being in the Guard so he won't be going anywhere.

[Matt]

I'm wondering if the court will listen to positive changes ofccircumstance on our end? Examples: SO buying a house where each child has their own room. Or SO no longer being in the Guard so he won't be going anywhere.

I don't know;  your lawyer should know what types of things can be considered a change of circumstances.

[ForeverDad]

Regarding incident's becoming legally stale or not actionable, I believe that court delays and continuances freeze the ticking clock, so to speak.  In my area it is 6 months.  So if it's similar in your state, then as long as you referred to incidents that occurred up to 6 months before you filed them, then you should be okay.  They're still potentially actionable.

You can't stop your ex from being MOTY or FOTY only when under the scrutiny of the court.  You can only present the information that ex wasn't doing so before the case and try to make your case as best you can that ex will revert back to past patterns once the current case is resolved.  Then it's up to the court to decide which parent is more credible or more stable.

The difficulty with Change of Circumstances is that the parenting time history is a major factor.  Courts are reluctant to bounce custody back and forth between competing parents.  As my lawyer once described it, Courts don't want to 'upset' the child by changing the status quo.  To which I responded, What if it is the status quo which 'upsets' the child?