Scared of reaction to legal agreement re separation & visitation rights

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm looking for survival tips or advice. My BPD husband and I have been separated three months and I now live alone with our one year old son. I had no idea my husband had any mental health issues until our baby was about 5 months old. He is not diagnosed, thinks nothing is wrong with him but I have been seeing a counsellor who is certain he has BPD possibly with depression also.

Since separating he won't even have a conversation with me, even about our child. All correspondence is via text and he is nasty about everything.

Tomorrow he will get a legal letter from my lawyer, outlining proposed visitation which is all to be supervised given his unstable and abusive behaviour coupled with the fact I have also learned post separation that he had a series of fairly serious dug addictions before we met. Again never had treatment so who knows the triggers and if it will happen again.

I have to do this to create boundaries as he feels everything is "his right" and also to protect my little boy as best I can.

Would love any words of advice or support right now, am really worried how he will react.

[Kayvee]

I'm looking for survival tips or advice. My BPD husband and I have been separated three months and I now live alone with our one year old son. I had no idea my husband had any mental health issues until our baby was about 5 months old. He is not diagnosed, thinks nothing is wrong with him but I have been seeing a counsellor who is certain he has BPD possibly with depression also.

Since separating he won't even have a conversation with me, even about our child. All correspondence is via text and he is nasty about everything.

Tomorrow he will get a legal letter from my lawyer, outlining proposed visitation which is all to be supervised given his unstable and abusive behaviour coupled with the fact I have also learned post separation that he had a series of fairly serious dug addictions before we met. Again never had treatment so who knows the triggers and if it will happen again.

I have to do this to create boundaries as he feels everything is "his right" and also to protect my little boy as best I can.

Would love any words of advice or support right now, am really worried how he will react.

[Matt]

Some suggestions... .

First, just a comment about "he had a series of fairly serious drugg addictions... .".  My adult son is a recovering addict (alcohol, meth, etc.).  He went through a very good residential rehab program, and I learned a lot from that too.  One thing I learned is that if someone is an addict, they always will be - there's no "cure".  There is treatment, and sometimes it's very successful - my son has been clean and sober now for more than 5 years, and I've met people who have been clean and sober for 20 or 30 years or more.  It can be done.  But the disease never goes away.  So you are right to think that if he isn't in treatment - isn't in some program - and especially when he is under stress - there is a high risk that he could relapse.

I think a key right now is to understand how the divorce/custody process works where you live, and what options you have.  Get your lawyer to explain it to you - she should answer every question you have.  Make sure she understands that this isn't a regular divorce - this is a "high-conflict" divorce, and it's likely the other party has some serious problems, even if they haven't been diagnosed yet.

Don't be in a hurry to get to a settlement - that will work against you.

Consider filing a motion for a Custody Evaluation, to include objective psych evals for both parents, and random drug/alcohol testing for both parents.  Get everything out in the open so it can be taken into account.

Keep the contact to a minimum, preferably by e-mail because it leaves a record.  Texts - make sure you copy them all to your computer and print them out so you have a record.  If you can avoid phone or face-to-face contact, that will be best.

Any inappropriate stuff from him, don't respond but keep a record.  If he will not communicate appropriately, then everything should go through your lawyer, and if needed you can consider a restraining order or "order of protection" to make sure there is no abuse, even verbal.  You don't have to put up with abuse of any kind.

Have other people around as much as you can, especially at times when you think the other party may act out.  Make it clear to him - through your lawyer - that he is not to go to your home for any reason.  His access to the child should be somewhere else - not your home.  If he comes to your home, don't let him in and don't talk to him - call the police or maybe a member of his family you can trust to get him away.

[livednlearned]

Kayvee,

I'm glad you're safe. It's hard to go through this, especially with such a young child. Having stayed with my N/BPD (and bipolar, alcoholic) ex husband until my son was 8, I think getting out early is key to giving your child a better start. You wouldn't think that reading about divorce and the effects on kids, but being in a stable, loving, non-raging home goes a long, long ways. More healthy than living in a two-parent home with abuse.

Have you read Splitting: Divorcing an NPD/BPD spouse by Bill Eddy? That's the most referenced book here. Eddy was a therapist for 20 years, and then became a family law attorney, and he understands BPD very well. Highly recommended for anyone going through a high-conflict divorce.

Do you worry about your ex doing something physical to harm you? If so, let the apartment building know that you are concerned about your safety and find out if and where they have surveillance cameras, and what their security is like. Be careful coming and going from your home, and change your routine.

My ex is an alcoholic, and I found that he was very threatening and abusive by text and email, but was too incapacitated to do anything. If your ex is prone to drug addiction, there is a good chance that's what he is doing right now.

Matt's advice to get an evaluation is a good one, especially if there is a high suspicion of drug abuse. And again, good advice from Matt about not rushing to a settlement. You have a lot in your favor -- the status quo is that you have your son 24/7 and the father is not involved. He has a hole to dig himself out of, and you don't want to help him at this point. Be prepared that he will tell all kinds of awful lies about you -- that's normal. The key is to document everything so you have a record to back you up.

I know it's hard right now because your anxiety is probably high, but try to do what you can to manage it. Divorcing a high-conflict spouse when custody is involved tends to be a long process, and the sooner you learn how to take care of yourself and manage the stress, the better it will be for you. I had to learn how to breathe (!) and started eating healthy, exercising, all the stuff they tell you to do, because I lost so much weight and kept getting sick.

You may not hear this enough from people around you, so I'll just say it again -- you did the right thing. BPD, depression, and drug abuse is a triple whammy. There is a sadly low chance that pwBPD and drug addictions will get better. The illness makes getting help and sticking to treatment so hard. By leaving him, you're choosing a better life for you and your son, even if it doesn't feel that way right now. There are a lot of amazing single mothers who raise amazing young men.

The people here are wonderful -- we've been through what you're going through.



LnL

[Matt]

Yeah, "Splitting" is great.  So is Bill Eddy's web site, www.highconflictinstitute.com.

His ideas about how high-conflict divorces are different from regular divorces will be helpful to both you and your attorney.  "Splitting" focuses on what it's like to go through a divorce from someone with BPD or NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder);  Eddy says that even though these two disorders are different, there are lots of similarities in how you need to handle the divorce process - very different from what works well when you are divorcing someone who doesn't have one of these disorders.

As an example, most divorces are worked out by direct negotiation between the parties, with or without attorneys.  Going to court is rare.  But when the other party has BPD or NPD, negotiation doesn't work the same way - it's not impossible, but it's very different from negotiating with a person who doesn't have one of these disorders.  If your lawyer doesn't have experience with opposing parties with NPD or BPD, she may not get it, but "Splitting" will help you both a lot (if you and your attorney are both open to what it shows).

[livednlearned]

I have to do this to create boundaries as he feels everything is "his right" and also to protect my little boy as best I can.

You probably don't have a whole lot of time to read since you have a young child, but if you ever do find time, another really useful book for me was Why Does He Do That: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. It will help you put the entitlement/control/abuse stuff in perspective, so you can start to see how much of his behavior is about him. Knowing how much of it is about him will help you get your strength back. Bancroft also waves off any excuses made by mental illness or substance abuse -- a super important lesson. If the behavior is cruel and abusive, the behavior is cruel and abusive. No need to excuse it away.

It's going to be ok. It may not seem like it right now, but it gets so much better.

[momtara]

Hang in there - I have young children too and am trying to maintain good custody over them.  Many lawyers have told me that it is hard to get supervised visitation, but of course if you can prove some of what you are saying, it will help.  It is hard not to be intimidated.  He probably wants back into your situation and will not stop annoying you by text.  As others have said, keep a record.  Document everything.

As for how he will react - probably badly, but you are not living with him and he is only talking to you via text, so keep downloading and saving the texts.  Back them up.  He may be angry at first but it will calm down eventually.  How did he behave during the marriage when he got mad about stuff?  Did he ever get revenge, or did he calm down eventually?

By the way, you can post on avvo.com for free legal advice, if you can't talk to your lawyer all the time.

Everything you say to him can be used against you, so be careful what you say.

Custody/psych evaluations can be expensive, long, and time consuming, but if you don't get one, you may regret it later.  This is a good thing to consult with a few attorneys about.

And keep posting here.  We've been thru it.  We are here to help!

[Kayvee]

Thanks so much everyone. I have never used a message board until now, but it helps so much to hear of your experiences and to know it will get better and easier. I am already feeling much stronger I used to cry so much every day but now three or four whole days can pass where I don't cry at all.

He also has had a gambling problem and I think he may have it again. I don't know what is going on but he never has any money even though he works and earns good money. It was the same while we were married, his money was always gone.

Right now he is living with his parents so has the same income with no rent or mortgage to pay but still no money. He is not really helping me financially and money is a huge trigger for arguments with him.

It is really sad as I am sure you have all been through he is not the man I fell in love with And married and I have learned of all of is addictions and problems from his family only few months ago when things were so bad I could not stand my baby to be having this life.

I don't think he will fight me, he won't have the money to spend on a lawyer. I don't even think he wants our son. He never connected with him while we were married, he would rather play his mobile phone games than hold or spend time with our baby. Even now when I accommodate him whenever he wants to see my son he comes once a week or once a fortnight for half an hour. That is it. He doesn't even want to know how he is going.

There is no option but to do this legal process and I am hoping it will draw a line in the sand, he can either fall into line or go away. Either are better than now if I am honest with myself.

But strangely now that he knows what is coming I have had the first polite text messages in 3 months! Suddenly this weekend he wanted to know lots about our son and even made a comment himself how he is disconnected from his own son.

I waned to think there was some realisation there and acknowledgement of what he has done, perhaps even regret.

But I am thinking he is just trying to manipulate me.

I love my son so much but truly wish I had him with another man!

[Matt]

One thing to learn about is how alimony and child support are figured where you live.

In many states, there are guidelines - worksheets to figure out how much should be paid (and by whom, and to whom) for alimony and child support, based on each parent's income and expenses, and how much time the child spends with each.

And it may be possible to have the amount come directly from his paycheck into a state agency, which will then send you a check - that's how it works where I live.  So he does not have the choice not to pay, as long as he is working.

Remember, it's not "you vs. him".  It's a legal process, and some math, to work out what is appropriate according to the law, so he will be contributing a fair amount toward raising the child.  Your lawyer should know all this stuff and can explain it to you.  Still might take several months to happen but at least you'll understand where it's probably heading.

[livednlearned]

I don't even think he wants our son.

That was my experience too. N/BPDx did not act like someone who wanted his son, but when it came to the legal stuff, he fought me every step of the way. He didn't want to lose, but he also didn't act like someone who wanted to win. It's not uncommon for men with BPD to want the control without doing any of the work.

In my state, they split physical and legal custody. I was awarded primary physical custody, but could not (at least initially) get primary legal custody. Not until N/BPDx had some kind of psychotic episode one night, and that helped turn things around.

Be very, very firm in what you ask for legally, and stick to what you think is best for your son. Even if your lawyer pressures you, or people tell you to do this or that... .if you think it is best for your son to have supervised visitation, ask for that. You may not get it during the first round, but it will help you down the road if you end up back in court.

Even though it feels awful, be glad that he is not pulling his weight. He may flip flop in that behavior, so document everything. You want to show the court the pattern of his behavior, and documentation goes a long way to help you when (and if) you both end up in court and it's a 'he said' 'she said' situation. You want to be able to say, "actually, this is what he said, Exhibit A, Exhibit B, and Exhibit C." This is what I said, "Exhibit D, Exhibit E, Exhibit F." 

[ForeverDad]

He is not really helping me financially and money is a huge trigger for arguments with him.

So much about divorce from a person with BPD (pwBPD) must be done as though it was unwinding a business, let go the emotions and hopes, expect obstruction not cooperation, try to keep it straightforward and as simple as possible.  In financial issues, the courts can handle that very well.  For example, child support is often based on your income, his income and the proportion of parenting each has.  So you don't have to beg him or make a deal with him, the courts have a standard process for that, as well as division of assets and debts.  The major issue is your custody and parenting so those are your priority.

I don't think he will fight me, he won't have the money to spend on a lawyer. I don't even think he wants our son. He never connected with him while we were married, he would rather play his mobile phone games than hold or spend time with our baby. Even now when I accommodate him whenever he wants to see my son he comes once a week or once a fortnight for half an hour. That is it... .

But strangely now that he knows what is coming I have had the first polite text messages in 3 months! Suddenly this weekend he wanted to know lots about our son and even made a comment himself how he is disconnected from his own son.

This is the history he has established.  Maybe he'll make a token effort to posture as an involved dad.  Maybe his family will push him to do that.  Whether he will be a 'royal pain' or sputter out and fade back to the prior pattern, time will tell.  But be prepared for either outcome.

I wanted to think there was some realisation there and acknowledgement of what he has done, perhaps even regret.

Closure is something you will have to give yourself.  You can't expect closure, stability or reciprocity from a disordered person.

But I am thinking he is just trying to manipulate me.

Quite likely.  It may be his reaction or overreaction, manipulation too.  If you do get some cooperation - as far as it goes - then great.  But don't expect it to last or not to be used against you later.

As the others wrote, be careful of rushing to make a deal.  If it's what you want, then okay, but beware of giving up important things just to get a quick deal or to get it over with.  Too often a quick deal can be a lousy one.

[momtara]

Yeah, he's interested in his son now because he doesn't want to pay child support.  Don't be confident in the fact that he never connected with him.  He may try to get some visitation just to satisfy his ego or something.   

You will be ok. 

[Kayvee]

Thanks again, so good to feel the support and know how many have been through this. It feels so lonely at times but these boards make me realise I'm not alone.

I'm in Sydney Australia. We have done the child support assessment, its based on the previous years income and as he was unemployed a few months during the financial year he was assessed on a very low income so only pays $80 a week. Obviously this doesn't cover much.

The way it works here is the assessment is the bare minimum to cover food, clothing and shelter only. Most men pay on top of this to help,with health, medical, daycare etc. but not this guy.

We also need to be separated for 12 months before we can divorce as our marriage is under two years long.

I am looking forward to the agreement being done and then I can really minimise contact with him and try to move on with my life. I'm looking forward to having some boundaries in place.

At the moment its like a game to him that he can be so horrible and nasty to me but I have to respond to him about things when he asks because its "his right as a father".

It will be good when I don't really have to deal with him at all.

Thanks again everyone. I will update what happens next.

[momtara]

It requires a lot of thinking and patience.  You may have to find ways to make him feel that he's 'won' and compromise on certain things.

[Clearmind]

Kayvee, I am in Sydney Australia and although I was not married to my partner we had a financial agreement. You are right that you need to be legally separated for a year prior to divorcing.

Are there any joint accounts etc? Or does he have access to your accounts? Given he has a gambling problem it maybe good to tie up those loose ends with the help of a lawyer.

[Kayvee]

Thankfully no joint accounts so he has no access to my accounts. I do have a big credit card debt though from paying everything while he didn't work. More fool me! I will get on top if it though and there's worse that coukd have happened.

My lawyer seems pretty sharp and on the ball. So far she has given really old advice

[Kayvee]

Geez my typos on the iPad! Good advice not old advice haha

[Clearmind]

  figured you meant good advice!

Thats good news about no joint accounts - that simplifies things.

Document everything Kay and if you need to communicate with him because he has "rights as a father" do so in a way that is very clear, all facts with no emotion and try not to be defensive. Communicating with him takes some skill, not engaging in circular arguments will make it easier on you and the divorce process - remind yourself its not your fault.

Your therapist should be able to help you with communication skills.

There are plenty of workshops and material to read through on the board. More here…

[Kayvee]

Yes my main concern is my son. Lucky that my ex has no access to any accounts and we do not own any assets together. I do have property that I have held for 12 years before our marriage and my lawyer has advised it will be easy to get rid of any attempt to claim on that as it is obviously my property with no contributions from my ex.

Good advice about the contact. His circular arguments drive me crazy.it is seriously like trying to wrestle smoke, no chance of success.

The legal letter is sent at close of business today. I have my client Christmas drinks party tonight so I am lucky my phone will be in my bag all night so I won't see any nasty messages from him.

The lawyers advice is to not respond to any tirade about the agreement and direct him back to them.

Hopefully his ranting doesn't cost me a fortune!

[momtara]

I turned out the alert sound for texts on my phone since he's the only one who sends them to me.  I can relax a lot more not hearing his stupid beeps during work. 

[livednlearned]

Good advice about the contact. His circular arguments drive me crazy.it is seriously like trying to wrestle smoke, no chance of success.

That is such a great way to describe it. My ex was a former trial attorney and I never won an argument in the 10 years we were married.

The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans is excellent. I learned one of the most important lessons of my life, which is to say "No" or "Stop" and then... nothing. No explanation, no appeasing. I think it helped not only at the end of our r/s (it coincided with my growing strength and his escalating abuse), but after, during the post-divorce period.

LnL

[Kayvee]

Well its all happening. Naturally he denies everything but nothing could have prepared me for the lies!

He claims I had post natal depression and that I was angry and antagonistic to him!

He references a drunk argument we had in December 2011 and claims I have binge drinking issues.

This stuff is really coming from nowhere.

He won't agree to the proposed visitation plan but won't propose any alternatives either.

This is going to get real ugly. Or should I say even uglier?

But there is no bond like a mother and child and I will press on as I know its what's best for my son,

Thanks everyone for you help and support, it means a lot.

[livednlearned]

Well its all happening. Naturally he denies everything but nothing could have prepared me for the lies!

He claims I had post natal depression and that I was angry and antagonistic to him!

He references a drunk argument we had in December 2011 and claims I have binge drinking issues.

This stuff is really coming from nowhere.

He won't agree to the proposed visitation plan but won't propose any alternatives either.

This is going to get real ugly. Or should I say even uglier?

But there is no bond like a mother and child and I will press on as I know its what's best for my son,

Thanks everyone for you help and support, it means a lot.

Did he respond with lies in the counter claim? Or is his response through email to you... .Because the counter claim document doesn't mean anything. I don't even think judges read that stuff. The counter claims document is theater. The stuff N/BPDx wrote in his was fiction. After a while, when you get some distance and less emotionally invested, you'll start to see that the lies are useful. N/BPDx never took me by surprise, he always tipped his hand before we were in court. Every step of the way, I knew what he was going to bring to the table.

[Kayvee]

He doesn't even have a lawyer so his response was just a email to my lawyer.

It just shocked me because everything g in my letter is true and can be supported. I remember feeling so upset before it was sent. Reading it all in black and white really showed me what he has done to me.

Whereas everything in his email is pure lies. He even references a drunk argument we both had in Dec 2011 to say he thinks I have a binge drinking problem.

its ridiculous! You are right that none of it would stand up in court and none of it is relevant to the issue at hand.

The fact his response doesn't even address the visitation schedule, only addresses himself, probably says it all

[livednlearned]

He doesn't even have a lawyer so his response was just a email to my lawyer.

It just shocked me because everything g in my letter is true and can be supported. I remember feeling so upset before it was sent. Reading it all in black and white really showed me what he has done to me.

Whereas everything in his email is pure lies. He even references a drunk argument we both had in Dec 2011 to say he thinks I have a binge drinking problem.

its ridiculous! You are right that none of it would stand up in court and none of it is relevant to the issue at hand.

The fact his response doesn't even address the visitation schedule, only addresses himself, probably says it all

Divorcing a pwBPD is (unfortunately) good training to develop boundaries. Because it isn't true, you know it's not true, there is no proof, and in court, a lot of it either wouldn't matter, or wouldn't stand up.

I know it's hard to read and hear that stuff, and it's good you have this place to vent and feel frustrated. He's trying to shift emotional pain onto you, so the best thing is to just move it right along and focus on taking care of yourself. Exactly what you're doing, moving the legal stuff forward, working with your lawyer, and getting closer to the outcome you want. Keep doing what you're doing, focusing on what's best for you and your son.   

[Kayvee]

Thanks everyone. Still nothing resolved. He is now having circular arguments with my lawyer. While I'm glad its no longer me now his crazy behaviour costs me money!

So far he says he can't agree to the proposed visitation but does not say by or propose any other alternatives. It feels like he just wants to be deliberately difficult.

I'd included in my proposal a provision or Christmas, his family celebrate on Boxing Day so I proposed dropping our son there for two hours  so his whole family could see him. Even though its a few hours driving for me I thought it was best for everyone.

But BPD ex insists on coming Xmas day and has threatened to just turn up welcome or not.

I'm so sick of the mind games and he instantly doesnt respond to things so nothing can be resolved but then plays the victim, a la " poor Dad just wants  to see his son".

My energy is running low but I'm not giving up. I want regular super used is its to protect my son and also have some boundaries. Hoping once regular visits are agreed I can deal with him less and less.

Any tips or advice so welcome!

[Matt]

My suggestion would be, you've made a proposal, so just let it be.  No need to argue about it - you or your lawyer.  Tell your lawyer, "Tell him if he makes a written counter-proposal we will consider it, and say good-bye, and hang up.  No more than 5 minutes max - I'm done paying you to argue with him."

Everything in writing.  If he makes a counter-proposal, read it and respond in a timely way, in writing - within a day or two if you can.  Your response could be, "Thank you for your counter-proposal.  I have read it and consider it.  I will stick with my proposal of [date]."  Make sure every proposal you make has a date on it - he has to accept it by then or it expires - one or two weeks.

Find out how to move the process forward and take those steps.  Where I live, the key is to file a motion with the court to get a trial date set - usually a few months in the future.  That puts an end to the process.  Then prepare for trial as if you're going to trial on that date.  Tell your lawyer not to agree to any delays without your approval.

The other party usually softens up shortly before the trial date - maybe only a few days before.  Then is when the real solution happens.  The better your preparation for trial, the better settlement you will get.

[ForeverDad]

The typical holiday schedule alternates the major holidays between parents and uses two columns, one for even years and the other for odd years.  That way you both get each holiday once every two years.  If you have different holidays that the other doesn't observe, then you can offer to let him have his holiday every year as long as you get your holiday every year.  If he refuses that option then stick to the standard schedule and let him deal with the consequences.  I'm sure family court has a standard published schedule.  Lacking agreement, default to that.

[Matt]

If you have different holidays that the other doesn't observe, then you can offer to let him have his holiday every year as long as you get your holiday every year.

Like what would be an example of that FD?

[ForeverDad]

In my area the parenting schedule alternates these holiday times at Christmas:

                      Even       Odd

                      Numbered Numbered

Holiday             Years      Years       Schedule

Christmas Eve   Mother     Father      12/23 noon to 12/24 9:00p.m.

Christmas Day   Father     Mother      12/24 9:00p.m. to 12/26 6:00p.m.

So rather than splitting both holidays the parents could agree this way:

                      Even       Odd

                      Numbered Numbered

Holiday             Years      Years       Schedule

Christmas         Mother     Mother     12/23 6:00p.m. to 12/25 6:00p.m.

Boxing Day        Father     Father      12/25 6:00p.m. to 12/27 6:00p.m.

If that's too long, then shorten each to just one day.

                      Even       Odd

                      Numbered Numbered

Holiday             Years      Years       Schedule

Christmas         Mother     Mother     12/24 6:00p.m. to 12/25 6:00p.m.

Boxing Day        Father     Father      12/25 6:00p.m. to 12/26 6:00p.m.

Or any other split of time that can be negotiated.  For example if he doesn't get overnights, then you can shift his time to start the morning of his holiday.  If an exception is made to the county's typical order, then any deviations must be in writing so that they later can't be successfully challenged or reinterpreted at the last minute.

[livednlearned]

I'm so sick of the mind games and he instantly doesnt respond to things so nothing can be resolved but then plays the victim, a la " poor Dad just wants  to see his son".

My energy is running low but I'm not giving up. I want regular super used is its to protect my son and also have some boundaries. Hoping once regular visits are agreed I can deal with him less and less.

I found that N/BPDx's behavior did not change, but mine did. That quality your ex has -- not responding, nothing resolves, he is the victim -- that is behavior many of us here have experienced in our exes. I learned some great skills from dealing with N/BPDx that I use in other parts of my life. Your ex does have some power, but not as much as he wants you to think. And you have far more power than he wants you to know.

For example, say he shows up on Christmas. He bangs on the door. You ignore him. He goes away. Or, he shows up, you call the police, he goes away. It is not pleasant, but you have boundaries, and sometimes it can be unpleasant enforcing them.

One time N/BPDx showed up at my door with S12 after N/BPDx raged at me through text, email, IM all night. I refused to open the door until N/BPDx went back to his car. It was awful for S12, but it would have been worse for me, and him, if I opened the door. I just kept repeating, "Get back in the car." N/BPDx tried for 5 minutes to get me to open the door, and I just kept repeating the same thing, "Get back in the car."

And he did.

Sometimes you just have to keep repeating the boundary, even when you are in active negotiation with lawyers.