Something I Have Noticed

[Waifed]

I have been out of the nightmare relationship for 4 months and I am doing better (most days) but I have noticed something.  I have looked back at pictures that have been taken of me over the past four months.  I am usually smiling but I have notice something very disturbing.  If you look into my eyes you can see a person who is hurting deeply and is empty inside.  It is so obvious to me when I look at myself now vs. before my disastrous 3 year debacle.

I have read where pwBPD are very good at reading peoples faces.  I wonder if a pwBPD would see the pain and emptiness in my eyes.  I know some day I will be happy again and I am trying so hard to get out of this funk but it is so freaking hard.  I want to look forward to the holidays with my children or to the future dating someone who can actually share themselves.  I have tried dating but I just don't have anything to give to another right now.  Where are you in your recovery?

[nevaeh]

Hi Waifed... .

I read your post and it made me think.  My daughter had her 16th b-day a couple of months ago and as I was going through old photos to post to facebook for her bday, I really looked at myself and the kids (particularly our eyes) in the pictures.

The pictures were sweet, we were always smiling and looked happy.  I doubt anyone would detect that behind those smiles there was a lot of pain going on.  There were certain events in particular where I remembered that H had raged about something right before the event but we still had to go.  Yet there we were, in the pictures, smiling as though we were happy.  I don't usually get too emotional, but the couple of weeks after going through these pictures I was an emotional, crying wreck.  It was so incredibly sad, yet eye-opening, to me to realize that I have lived the last 18 years of my life pretending to be happy... .not only to the outside world, but to myself AND to my husband.  I always believe that if I pretended to be happy that it would rub off on him and he would also become happy.  Of course it never worked and I just felt like I was never quiet good enough to make him happy and to make him love me. 

I my case, I don't think my H (uBPD) is good at reading faces.  He lacks empathy and I don't think he is emotionally capable of realizing when he has just stabbed someone in the heart with his words. 

I am still with H, although intend to leave with my kids sometime in January.  Where am I at in my recovery?  Not far, but far enough to at least be firm in my decision that leaving him is what I have to do and that I can't back down this time.  I will have a lot of work to do to heal myself in the months ahead, but I recognize that it has to be so much better on the other side!

[Ironmanrises]

She probably noticed the pain in your eyes(mine was really good at noticing the slightest of face/voice changes) and instead of wondering why you are hurting, distorted that in her mind to mean something completely different. For me, when I saw the pain in my ex eyes, I would always ask her, "what is wrong? Talk to me." Mine was not able to self reflect on why I was hurting when devaluation started. Or did not want to admit to it. I don't even know which is worse.

Where I am in recovery? I am slowly healing and in a world of sh¥t. The lack of closure(the disorder itself does not fully give me closure) leaves me in a place where I am in limbo. In a place between two worlds. Not really here or there.

Hang in there Waifed. We are here for you.

[Waifed]

nevaeh,

I can not imagine enduring 18 years of emptiness.  You have sacrificed a good portion of your life tending to someone who likely doesn't have any appreciation for the sacrifice in life that you have made for him.  I hope you find the happiness that you deserve sooner than later

Ironman,

I am kind of like you in that I am between two worlds.  I am grateful that I have moved on from the old world and my mind has accepted the fact that there is no turning back, but the future is just so damn scary.  I am "not really here or there".  You describe my situation perfectly with those 5 words.  I am happy with my direction most days, but I just don't know where that direction is supposed to be taking me!

I don't know that I will ever be able to trust again.  I analyze everything.  I am scared to give my heart to someone because I feel like the world is full of frauds. 

[Hazelrah]

Waifed,

Funny you should mention your eyes... .I recently made the acquaintance of a nice woman who actually observed the same thing with me.  Namely, that my eyes clearly indicated that I had been through something truly life-altering.  There are times where I can physically feel that emotion in my eyes, and it is likely hard for others to miss.

In terms of my personal recovery (I'm a bit more than five months out), things had been going well until the recent American Thanksgiving holiday.  My mom passed away on Thanksgiving last year, and it set about a chain of dramatic events in my marriage... .a six month roller-coaster of emotions that was so extreme I feel as if I will always associate my mother's passing with my wife and marriage.  It's as if I'm unable to separate one from the other, which sucks--I'd like to be able to remember my mom without having those memories intrinsically tied to a woman I need to detach from. 

It also didn't help that my separated wife got in a serious car accident the day after the holiday, which triggered my 'rescuer gene' in a way that I haven't experienced in quite some time.  Maybe it's the simple fact that I had to communicate with her... .NC had been doing me a world of good, and the limited contact we had proved difficult.  I know I'll continue to get better, it's just that this was an unexpected setback for me.     

[Waifed]

Waifed,

Funny you should mention your eyes... .I recently made the acquaintance of a nice woman who actually observed the same thing with me.  Namely, that my eyes clearly indicated that I had been through something truly life-altering.  There are times where I can physically feel that emotion in my eyes, and it is likely hard for others to miss.

In terms of my personal recovery (I'm a bit more than five months out), things had been going well until the recent American Thanksgiving holiday.  My mom passed away on Thanksgiving last year, and it set about a chain of dramatic events in my marriage... .a six month roller-coaster of emotions that was so extreme I feel as if I will always associate my mother's passing with my wife and marriage.  It's as if I'm unable to separate one from the other, which sucks--I'd like to be able to remember my mom without having those memories intrinsically tied to a woman I need to detach from. 

It also didn't help that my separated wife got in a serious car accident the day after the holiday, which triggered my 'rescuer gene' in a way that I haven't experienced in quite some time.  Maybe it's the simple fact that I had to communicate with her... .NC had been doing me a world of good, and the limited contact we had proved difficult.  I know I'll continue to get better, it's just that this was an unexpected setback for me.     

I'm sorry to hear that.  Hopefully with time you will be able to separate your mom's passing from your ex wife.  How bad did seeing your ex set you back?  I am very fortunate in that I don't ever expect to see or even know what my ex is up to. 

[Turkish]

Waifed,

Funny you should mention your eyes... .I recently made the acquaintance of a nice woman who actually observed the same thing with me.  Namely, that my eyes clearly indicated that I had been through something truly life-altering.  There are times where I can physically feel that emotion in my eyes, and it is likely hard for others to miss.

I might have it, too. I used to notice this in people, especially women... .my "talent" for spotting women who have been abused, most likely due to growing up with my mother and the other abused women whom we used to hang out with.

It also didn't help that my separated wife got in a serious car accident the day after the holiday, which triggered my 'rescuer gene' in a way that I haven't experienced in quite some time.  Maybe it's the simple fact that I had to communicate with her... .NC had been doing me a world of good, and the limited contact we had proved difficult.  I know I'll continue to get better, it's just that this was an unexpected setback for me.     

Sorry for that, Hazelrah. I'm not there yet, but I think I will be enmeshed with mine for some time in a similar manner. For sure the idiot mine hooked up with won't be able to handle anything adult-oriented. And the Fallback guy is... .us. Hard to not rescue a person in pain, even if they caused us pain.

[Hazelrah]

I'm sorry to hear that.  Hopefully with time you will be able to separate your mom's passing from your ex wife.  How bad did seeing your ex set you back?  I am very fortunate in that I don't ever expect to see or even know what my ex is up to. 

Thanks, Waifed.  I didn't actually see my BPDw, though... .I haven't seen her or even spoken on the phone to her since late June.  And this is someone I'll soon be divorcing.  All it took was a simple text exchange to allow myself to take a step back.  I think we've both been doing our darndest to avoid one another, though likely for completely different reasons.   

[Hazelrah]

Sorry for that, Hazelrah. I'm not there yet, but I think I will be enmeshed with mine for some time in a similar manner. For sure the idiot mine hooked up with won't be able to handle anything adult-oriented. And the Fallback guy is... .us. Hard to not rescue a person in pain, even if they caused us pain.

Thanks, Turk... .I'm rooting for yours to move out ASAP for your sake.  And yes, it was strange how my first inclination was to offer help to the damsel whom I let distress me.  Still have some work to do, I suppose. 

[DownandOut]

She probably noticed the pain in your eyes(mine was really good at noticing the slightest of face/voice changes) and instead of wondering why you are hurting, distorted that in her mind to mean something completely different. For me, when I saw the pain in my ex eyes, I would always ask her, "what is wrong? Talk to me." Mine was not able to self reflect on why I was hurting when devaluation started. Or did not want to admit to it. I don't even know which is worse.

Where I am in recovery? I am slowly healing and in a world of sh¥t. The lack of closure(the disorder itself does not fully give me closure) leaves me in a place where I am in limbo. In a place between two worlds. Not really here or there.

Hang in there Waifed. We are here for you.

Ironman, every time you write something about your r/s it reminds me so much of mine. Not only are our pwBPDs similar, but it sounds like you and I are similar as well. In bold. When we b/u, I told my uBPDexgf that I saw a pain in her eyes that I would do anything to take away. My intuition was telling me that this girl needs me, but even if that was true, she didn't want me anymore. During the r/s she would just shut down and become quiet and I knew something as eating at her, something deep. Like you, I would ask her "what's wrong?" "what are you thinking about?" "talk to me!" As always, I got nothing.   Like yours, she also knew she was hurting me, but either didn't care because her feelings were more important or suppressed those feelings because they were too painful for her. As a result, I'm neither here nor there myself. I'm existing at this moment in time, going through the motions, doing what I need to to maintain my life and that's it.

[Turkish]

She probably noticed the pain in your eyes(mine was really good at noticing the slightest of face/voice changes) and instead of wondering why you are hurting, distorted that in her mind to mean something completely different. For me, when I saw the pain in my ex eyes, I would always ask her, "what is wrong? Talk to me." Mine was not able to self reflect on why I was hurting when devaluation started. Or did not want to admit to it. I don't even know which is worse.

Where I am in recovery? I am slowly healing and in a world of sh¥t. The lack of closure(the disorder itself does not fully give me closure) leaves me in a place where I am in limbo. In a place between two worlds. Not really here or there.

Hang in there Waifed. We are here for you.

Ironman, every time you write something about your r/s it reminds me so much of mine. Not only are our pwBPDs similar, but it sounds like you and I are similar as well. In bold. When we b/u, I told my uBPDexgf that I saw a pain in her eyes that I would do anything to take away. My intuition was telling me that this girl needs me, but even if that was true, she didn't want me anymore. During the r/s she would just shut down and become quiet and I knew something as eating at her, something deep. Like you, I would ask her "what's wrong?" "what are you thinking about?" "talk to me!" As always, I got nothing.   Like yours, she also knew she was hurting me, but either didn't care because her feelings were more important or suppressed those feelings because they were too painful for her. As a result, I'm neither here nor there myself. I'm existing at this moment in time, going through the motions, doing what I need to to maintain my life and that's it.

Mine would get mad at me because I hardly ever would talk to her when she was hurting. I mistakenly thought that because I didn't need someone to talk to since I work things out on my own, that she didn't. It makes me feel like I wasn't "man" enough to confront it as you and Ironman did. I don't know... .still ruminating on the things she accused me of not doing for her.

The good thing is that now, I don't care. I think I might have caught her crying last night as she was doing the dishes. I popped in the kitchen, told her I was taking a shower and to get her stuff out of the MB bathroom because I was going in to sleep afterwards.

Earlier, before I put S3 to bed, she was watching a cartoon with him on the couch. Commercial time came, which was a good break since he would just stay up and keep watching, and I said, "can you please turn off the tv so I can put S to bed?" She was wrapped up in messaging through FB. I had to ask her twice to get the remote, sitting there in front of her, and turn it off. Bugged me. I have no idea whom she was talking to, but it was obviously serious. At this point, I just don't give a whit about her emotions unless they have a direct impact on running the house and the kids now. Maybe that makes me a cold blooded bastid. Maybe I was too much before and that's what triggered this.

[DownandOut]

She probably noticed the pain in your eyes(mine was really good at noticing the slightest of face/voice changes) and instead of wondering why you are hurting, distorted that in her mind to mean something completely different. For me, when I saw the pain in my ex eyes, I would always ask her, "what is wrong? Talk to me." Mine was not able to self reflect on why I was hurting when devaluation started. Or did not want to admit to it. I don't even know which is worse.

Where I am in recovery? I am slowly healing and in a world of sh¥t. The lack of closure(the disorder itself does not fully give me closure) leaves me in a place where I am in limbo. In a place between two worlds. Not really here or there.

Hang in there Waifed. We are here for you.

Ironman, every time you write something about your r/s it reminds me so much of mine. Not only are our pwBPDs similar, but it sounds like you and I are similar as well. In bold. When we b/u, I told my uBPDexgf that I saw a pain in her eyes that I would do anything to take away. My intuition was telling me that this girl needs me, but even if that was true, she didn't want me anymore. During the r/s she would just shut down and become quiet and I knew something as eating at her, something deep. Like you, I would ask her "what's wrong?" "what are you thinking about?" "talk to me!" As always, I got nothing.   Like yours, she also knew she was hurting me, but either didn't care because her feelings were more important or suppressed those feelings because they were too painful for her. As a result, I'm neither here nor there myself. I'm existing at this moment in time, going through the motions, doing what I need to to maintain my life and that's it.

Mine would get mad at me because I hardly ever would talk to her when she was hurting. I mistakenly thought that because I didn't need someone to talk to since I work things out on my own, that she didn't. It makes me feel like I wasn't "man" enough to confront it as you and Ironman did. I don't know... .still ruminating on the things she accused me of not doing for her.

The good thing is that now, I don't care. I think I might have caught her crying last night as she was doing the dishes. I popped in the kitchen, told her I was taking a shower and to get her stuff out of the MB bathroom because I was going in to sleep afterwards.

Earlier, before I put S3 to bed, she was watching a cartoon with him on the couch. Commercial time came, which was a good break since he would just stay up and keep watching, and I said, "can you please turn off the tv so I can put S to bed?" She was wrapped up in messaging through FB. I had to ask her twice to get the remote, sitting there in front of her, and turn it off. Bugged me. I have no idea whom she was talking to, but it was obviously serious. At this point, I just don't give a whit about her emotions unless they have a direct impact on running the house and the kids now. Maybe that makes me a cold blooded bastid. Maybe I was too much before and that's what triggered this.

You obviously can't blame yourself. The one thing I learned about my uBPDexgf was that if it wasn't one thing it was another. For example, she would get mad at me for wiping my mouth and teeth with a napkin after eating (not in a weird way, just trying to be hygienic), and at the same time ridicule me for having food in my teeth. I know that's a ridiculous example but it was a ridiculous relationship in the devaluation phase and the point i'm making is you're damned if you do and your damned if you don't. My ex would tell me about how bad she felt but could never talk about why, and at the same time, when I would ask those questions I mentioned above she would say "what is this a therapy session?" It's madness.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

She was wrapped up in messaging through FB. I had to ask her twice to get the remote, sitting there in front of her, and turn it off. Bugged me. I have no idea whom she was talking to, but it was obviously serious.

I don't know about how MY eyes were but I could always tell from reading HER eyes whenever she was up to something at the computer. My ex seemed to have a real gift in engaging in cyber/emotional affairs with guys online. It was as if she was a different person when she immersed herself in these online exchanges. Her eyes would suddenly "come alive", and I would see the person (from a distance) whom I once loved so deeply.

But as soon as I spoke to her about the most casual/ mundane stuff, for example, "Hey, would you like me to serve dinner now?" Her eyes will immediately be "curtained off"... .and I get the look of utter alienation and defensiveness, or to put it better, an "aloofness" as if I have just rudely dragged her back to the Here and Now when it was inconvenient for her.

A few years ago, she almost went ahead to pay for the plane tickets for some guy to visit her, for the sole purpose of "letting him have sex with her". Then last month, she was in such a crush with another online person that she felt compelled to show his pictures and video footages to her mom.

Now I just look back and I heave a great SIGH to myself.

I am sure that, in her past, online narratives with these strangers, she must have constructed a very seductive persona for herself. (Your typical, cyber c**k teaser). But in reality, it was nearly impossible for her to uphold a role of a SO who deserved respect and confidence from me. Maybe it was escapism for her to better accept herself, and not have to spend any effort or emotional input into the REAL relationship that she was sharing with me.

It all appears so deranged to me now that I am on the outside, gazing back into the by-gone relationship, and into those eyes of hers.

[Turkish]

She was wrapped up in messaging through FB. I had to ask her twice to get the remote, sitting there in front of her, and turn it off. Bugged me. I have no idea whom she was talking to, but it was obviously serious.

I don't know about how MY eyes were but I could always tell from reading HER eyes whenever she was up to something at the computer. My ex seemed to have a real gift in engaging in cyber/emotional affairs with guys online. It was as if she was a different person when she immersed herself in these online exchanges. Her eyes would suddenly "come alive", and I would see the person (from a distance) whom I once loved so deeply.

I am sure that, in her past, online narratives with these strangers, she must have constructed a very seductive persona for herself. (Your typical, cyber c**k teaser). But in reality, it was nearly impossible for her to uphold a role of a SO who deserved respect and confidence from me. Maybe it was escapism for her to better accept herself, and not have to spend any effort or emotional input into the REAL relationship that she was sharing with me.

Mine all but told me this two weeks ago after her paramour called her freaking phone while we were sitting down for dinner with our kids. She admitted, "I know you're the right guy, but I'm just not ready for 'this'." Meaning, two kids, home, two jobs, you know... .ADULT responsibilities. It's too much work being in a relationship with a healthy (mostly... .) adult. So she's infatuated with basically a kid, which is emotionally all she can handle. I'll give her some credit for at least trying for a few years.  But it was basically mirroring what I, her parents, and society expected of her. Now, she's mirroring being the party girl with the 1 dimensional relationships, even though part of her desperately wants something mature. She can't handle it, and she knows it. Maybe someday, but not with me. Already did one recycle 5 years ago before our first kid. Two and done! Still, I wonder if I should have tried to manipulate her back into our r/s like she did 5 years ago... .playing the guilt card or something. No, I realized I was better than that, so I didn't. If anything, she should be on her knees begging me to take HER back. But I would find that distasteful and unattractive.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

So she's infatuated with basically a kid, which is emotionally all she can handle.

That was true in my case.

Both instances of her cyber crushes were with men younger than herself.

So I guess, while the world was turning around as usual, HER time was frozen forever, and she was STUCK in some teeny-bopper bubble of flirting with "the boys".

I must admit I, myself was ONCE among one of these "boys".

But the problem was, I have infested a decade in building a life, a home for the both of us.

I have completely BLINDED myself in believing that it was a process of mutual growth together, AS A TEAM.

I was overly enthusiastic and I ended up foolishly doing all the work, and paying for all the expenses (NO! I wasn't going to pay for the plane tickets for her little fling, of course).

Verbalizing all this to you guys makes it more clear to MYSELF. And it disgusts me to face up to what I have put myself through.

I also know that if I do not get this self-pity, self-loathing out of the way, I probably will never recover.

[DownandOut]

She was wrapped up in messaging through FB. I had to ask her twice to get the remote, sitting there in front of her, and turn it off. Bugged me. I have no idea whom she was talking to, but it was obviously serious.

I don't know about how MY eyes were but I could always tell from reading HER eyes whenever she was up to something at the computer. My ex seemed to have a real gift in engaging in cyber/emotional affairs with guys online. It was as if she was a different person when she immersed herself in these online exchanges. Her eyes would suddenly "come alive", and I would see the person (from a distance) whom I once loved so deeply.

I am sure that, in her past, online narratives with these strangers, she must have constructed a very seductive persona for herself. (Your typical, cyber c**k teaser). But in reality, it was nearly impossible for her to uphold a role of a SO who deserved respect and confidence from me. Maybe it was escapism for her to better accept herself, and not have to spend any effort or emotional input into the REAL relationship that she was sharing with me.

Mine all but told me this two weeks ago after her paramour called her freaking phone while we were sitting down for dinner with our kids. She admitted, "I know you're the right guy, but I'm just not ready for 'this'." Meaning, two kids, home, two jobs, you know... .ADULT responsibilities. It's too much work being in a relationship with a healthy (mostly... .) adult. So she's infatuated with basically a kid, which is emotionally all she can handle. I'll give her some credit for at least trying for a few years.  But it was basically mirroring what I, her parents, and society expected of her. Now, she's mirroring being the party girl with the 1 dimensional relationships, even though part of her desperately wants something mature. She can't handle it, and she knows it. Maybe someday, but not with me. Already did one recycle 5 years ago before our first kid. Two and done! Still, I wonder if I should have tried to manipulate her back into our r/s like she did 5 years ago... .playing the guilt card or something. No, I realized I was better than that, so I didn't. If anything, she should be on her knees begging me to take HER back. But I would find that distasteful and unattractive.

Wow! Hit the nail on the head for me. I felt, and feel the same, about mine. She knows I'm the right guy for her, but she doesn't want it, or maybe just can't handle it. She wants to have "fun." Her ex was "fun," but then they moved in together and I guess the fun became too real. The new guy seems to be "fun" and childish, which is likely why it may last longer than my r/s. As soon as it stops being "fun," and it's time to start treating the r/s like adults instead of two kids in puppy love, she runs. Her family thought I would marry her and probably hoped I would (her mom told me we need to hurry up and have kids) because I AM the right guy. On paper, I'm what they want her to have. She mirrors that for awhile and then realizes that she wants something else that her childish mind yearns for. Don't know what it is, but responsibility and stability are not it.

[Turkish]

Wow! Hit the nail on the head for me. I felt, and feel the same, about mine. She knows I'm the right guy for her, but she doesn't want it, or maybe just can't handle it. She wants to have "fun." Her ex was "fun," but then they moved in together and I guess the fun became too real. The new guy seems to be "fun" and childish, which is likely why it may last longer than my r/s. As soon as it stops being "fun," and it's time to start treating the r/s like adults instead of two kids in puppy love, she runs. Her family thought I would marry her and probably hoped I would (her mom told me we need to hurry up and have kids) because I AM the right guy. On paper, I'm what they want her to have. She mirrors that for awhile and then realizes that she wants something else that her childish mind yearns for. Don't know what it is, but responsibility and stability are not it.

She even threw out in a fight that why didn't I take her for a bike ride (motorcycle) or something fun. Well, we had discussed it three years ago and said that we wouldn't do it while the kids were still babies. All in all, I would have liked to have done that, if not for every darn weekend going to some party (their culture is a party culture) or shopping or what have you. Plus having to work a few weekends over the summer, fixing stuff around the house, laundry, taking care of the kids and whatnot. That's why I never sold the bike, even though I rode it exactly twice since D1 was born. I knew our time would come again. She didn't want to wait. Too bad for her, she loses everything now, even the cool stuff like the firearms and such... .which in retrospect, were two hobbies that her X had (two years before me), the guy she was soo in love with and tried to have get pregnant with, but it didn't take, then he left her anyway.

I'll have the honor of taking our kids to their first snow, probably over Christmas. If not then, then later in the winter. She misses out on that. No way I'm taking our pretend family to visit my family and friends in snow country. Let her relatives and friends tell her about the snow pics I post on FB. She will be conspicuously absent. I freaking told her and told her I wanted to wait to have kids so we could do more "fun" stuff (me being 10 years older, I've done a lot more than she has), but no... .she needed to have the unconditional love of a baby. That will change when they get older if she doesn't work hard to diagnose and fix what she has. I already told her that I was our S3 (life with a disordered mother), so I know what's coming for him. In one ear... .out the other. Though I know on some level she will file away what I said for later.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Her family thought I would marry her and probably hoped I would (her mom told me we need to hurry up and have kids) because I AM the right guy. On paper, I'm what they want her to have. She mirrors that for awhile and then realizes that she wants something else that her childish mind yearns for. Don't know what it is, but responsibility and stability are not it.

My uBPDexGF used to have the worst tantrums to push me to marry her and have kids. The f***ed up aspect was that she brought this up always at the most dysregulated periods in her rapid-cycling PMDD + Push/Pull + Rage/Sulk episodes.

I just knew that there was no way in hell that she could own up to it even if I did get on one knee, have the ring, propose to her at a fancy restaurant over champagne and oysters, JUST LIKE IN HER FAV. CHICK FLICKS.

So after 3-4 months of "negotiation", she finally agreed to continue on the arrangement of co-habitation, until at least, I could save up enough $$$ to rent a larger place for ourselves first before anything... .

[Turkish]

Her family thought I would marry her and probably hoped I would (her mom told me we need to hurry up and have kids) because I AM the right guy. On paper, I'm what they want her to have. She mirrors that for awhile and then realizes that she wants something else that her childish mind yearns for. Don't know what it is, but responsibility and stability are not it.

My uBPDexGF used to have the worst tantrums to push me to marry her and have kids. The f***ed up aspect was that she brought this up always at the most dysregulated periods in her rapid-cycling PMDD + Push/Pull + Rage/Sulk episodes.

I just knew that there was no way in hell that she could own up to it even if I did get on one knee, have the ring, propose to her at a fancy restaurant over champagne and oysters, JUST LIKE IN HER FAV. CHICK FLICKS.

So after 3-4 months of "negotiation", she finally agreed to continue on the arrangement of co-habitation, until at least, I could save up enough $$$ to rent a larger place for ourselves first before anything... .

I put mine off and off, but she admitted to having basically a pathological aversion to marriage (due to her parents, of course). She did let me propose to her. This past year, when she started detaching (months before her affair), she even threw out us going down to the courthouse and sealing it. By then, I sensed something very wrong and said nothing. This, of course, triggered her feelings of worthlessness, which resulted in her detaching more and going off from both me and the kids. It was a no win situation. I knew this was coming at some point... .I chose the cheaper option, in a sense. "You don't want to marry me anymore?" From me: crickets chirping. I know that we being married would probably have accelerated the inevitable discard.

Who marries someone with a pathological aversion to the institution? And who in their right mind thinks they can kind of make it work anyway with a faux marriage with someone like that? The last sentence is, of course, directed at me.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Oh well, like Henry Miller always writes, "F**k a duck".

None of this matters anymore, anyhow... .

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

A progressive feminist, correct?

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

But let's get back on track on a more positive, constructive note, I am reading the book Pathological Altruism edited by B. Oakley, A. Knafo, G. Madhavan, D.S. Wilson. Oxford University Press.

I find it very insightful in deciphering my long-standing co-dependency issues, and my reoccurring "rescue attempts" towards toxic people.

(This was actually my second relationship with a female BPD. The first relationship lasted a mere two years. Then she felt threatened when things got too real and dumped me out of the blue. At the time, I still knew nothing about BPD. She asked to have me back, and I just flatly refused. Who would have guessed that, years later, I would voluntarily get involved in YET ANOTHER BPD relationship?)

[Conundrum]

Who marries someone with a pathological aversion to the institution? And who in their right mind thinks they can kind of make it work anyway with a faux marriage with someone like that? The last sentence is, of course, directed at me.

I do not think that is unusual at all. We swim against the current chasing desire while rebelling against those truths that seem unfathomable. Reasonable people attempt to find equitable remedies when facing injustice. All is fair in love and war.

When one is "all in." And it is impossible to be "more in" than marriage--the vested interest is immense. Add children into the equation and the stakes have been manifestly increased.

Under those circumstances, the luxury of radical acceptance is not an abstraction but has dire consequences upon both present and future generations. Not an easy thing to accept at all. It is a process... .perhaps life-long--of acceptance. So go easy with yourself. You loved, as many of us did.

But radical acceptance must come at some point. And with that forgiveness for all concerned. What is truth and what is illusion? The sorrow of this board is mired in desire and shame. We rarely prop ourselves up for venturing into waters which few dare tread. Why, because we've been conditioned to live in an outcome determinate society. Those in hospices who nurse the dying, those in the cancer wards who suckle the terminal, those on the battlefield who tend the hopelessly stricken, are not obsessed by outcome. Love is mercy, "love is a battlefield" and we are the merciful.

So, you did your best under the most trying of circumstances. The play is completed and it is time for the the players to exit the stage. Now is the the time to radically accept. These eccentric beings were not designed to attach to only one person. That is truth. To love them throughout life means to share them with others. They love in the most disordered of ways. In the most peculiar of ways. It is who they are. We can hate them for their natures. We can love them for their singular intensity to make us feel alive. But at the end of the day, we cannot define a meaningful life for ourselves based upon our attachment to them. They are the swirling storm. Most people are not. We love, or loved the swirling storm. That is ok too. It is not shameful, but we must accept--for our own sanity. For the happiness of our children, that all things change.         

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

But at the end of the day, we cannot define a meaningful life for ourselves based upon our attachment to them. They are the swirling storm. Most people are not. We love, or loved the swirling storm. That is ok too. It is not shameful, but we must accept--for our own sanity.

Very nicely versed. 

[Waifed]

Who marries someone with a pathological aversion to the institution? And who in their right mind thinks they can kind of make it work anyway with a faux marriage with someone like that? The last sentence is, of course, directed at me.

I do not think that is unusual at all. We swim against the current chasing desire while rebelling against those truths that seem unfathomable. Reasonable people attempt to find equitable remedies when facing injustice. All is fair in love and war.

When one is "all in." And it is impossible to be "more in" than marriage--the vested interest is immense. Add children into the equation and the stakes have been manifestly increased.

Under those circumstances, the luxury of radical acceptance is not an abstraction but has dire consequences upon both present and future generations. Not an easy thing to accept at all. It is a process... .perhaps life-long--of acceptance. So go easy with yourself. You loved, as many of us did.

But radical acceptance must come at some point. And with that forgiveness for all concerned. What is truth and what is illusion? The sorrow of this board is mired in desire and shame. We rarely prop ourselves up for venturing into waters which few dare tread. Why, because we've been conditioned to live in an outcome determinate society. Those in hospices who nurse the dying, those in the cancer wards who suckle the terminal, those on the battlefield who tend the hopelessly stricken, are not obsessed by outcome. Love is mercy, "love is a battlefield" and we are the merciful.

So, you did your best under the most trying of circumstances. The play is completed and it is time for the the players to exit the stage. Now is the the time to radically accept. These eccentric beings were not designed to attach to only one person. That is truth. To love them throughout life means to share them with others. They love in the most disordered of ways. In the most peculiar of ways. It is who they are. We can hate them for their natures. We can love them for their singular intensity to make us feel alive. But at the end of the day, we cannot define a meaningful life for ourselves based upon our attachment to them. They are the swirling storm. Most people are not. We love, or loved the swirling storm. That is ok too. It is not shameful, but we must accept--for our own sanity. For the happiness of our children, that all things change.         

Conundrum

Sad, but very well said.

[DownandOut]

Who marries someone with a pathological aversion to the institution? And who in their right mind thinks they can kind of make it work anyway with a faux marriage with someone like that? The last sentence is, of course, directed at me.

So, you did your best under the most trying of circumstances. The play is completed and it is time for the the players to exit the stage. Now is the the time to radically accept. These eccentric beings were not designed to attach to only one person. That is truth. To love them throughout life means to share them with others. They love in the most disordered of ways. In the most peculiar of ways. It is who they are. We can hate them for their natures. We can love them for their singular intensity to make us feel alive. But at the end of the day, we cannot define a meaningful life for ourselves based upon our attachment to them. They are the swirling storm. Most people are not. We love, or loved the swirling storm. That is ok too. It is not shameful, but we must accept--for our own sanity. For the happiness of our children, that all things change.         

Very well said. It hurts to think about, but so true.

[Ironmanrises]

She probably noticed the pain in your eyes(mine was really good at noticing the slightest of face/voice changes) and instead of wondering why you are hurting, distorted that in her mind to mean something completely different. For me, when I saw the pain in my ex eyes, I would always ask her, "what is wrong? Talk to me." Mine was not able to self reflect on why I was hurting when devaluation started. Or did not want to admit to it. I don't even know which is worse.

Where I am in recovery? I am slowly healing and in a world of sh¥t. The lack of closure(the disorder itself does not fully give me closure) leaves me in a place where I am in limbo. In a place between two worlds. Not really here or there.

Hang in there Waifed. We are here for you.

Ironman, every time you write something about your r/s it reminds me so much of mine. Not only are our pwBPDs similar, but it sounds like you and I are similar as well. In bold. When we b/u, I told my uBPDexgf that I saw a pain in her eyes that I would do anything to take away. My intuition was telling me that this girl needs me, but even if that was true, she didn't want me anymore. During the r/s she would just shut down and become quiet and I knew something as eating at her, something deep. Like you, I would ask her "what's wrong?" "what are you thinking about?" "talk to me!" As always, I got nothing.   Like yours, she also knew she was hurting me, but either didn't care because her feelings were more important or suppressed those feelings because they were too painful for her. As a result, I'm neither here nor there myself. I'm existing at this moment in time, going through the motions, doing what I need to to maintain my life and that's it.

We are all anonymous on here, and yet our descriptions of our exes is hauntingly similar. You describe being in limbo too. Just existing. I know exactly how painful that is. Hang in there downandout. 

[necchi]

She brought one child in the equation, uses im, i have two of my own i gave there mom custody of because of her push/pull (S17 is now with me)... then forgive so many times and now D13 (not hers) is spending w/e at her place and don't want to see me/talk to me... .i've gone wrong and let it happen. Now i realy don't know what to do, really, i just don't have a clue. Every escape seems trapped