When are you at your lowest?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

When do you feel at your lowest in your relationship?

For me, I always thought it was when I was accused of something, abused, made to account for my every move, watching what I say and do or caught in the storm of another argument.

But I have realised recently it is actually during the quiet times, where she is sweet and loving.

In those times, I reflect on how I wish it could be like this most of the time.

And I also just wait for the next meltdown, which is pretty much comes every few days.

I have not gone more than 10 days wihtout being caught up in a fight.  They come an average of every 3 or 4 days.

Which would be another intersting question.

How long have you managed to go without being involved in some sort of dysregulation from your partner?

[popeye6031]

When do you feel at your lowest in your relationship?

For me, I always thought it was when I was accused of something, abused, made to account for my every move, watching what I say and do or caught in the storm of another argument.

But I have realised recently it is actually during the quiet times, where she is sweet and loving.

In those times, I reflect on how I wish it could be like this most of the time.

And I also just wait for the next meltdown, which is pretty much comes every few days.

I have not gone more than 10 days wihtout being caught up in a fight.  They come an average of every 3 or 4 days.

Which would be another intersting question.

How long have you managed to go without being involved in some sort of dysregulation from your partner?

[maxsterling]

I think I have come to the same conclusion as you.  Immediately after she screams at me or gets violent, I feel scared, hurt, and damaged.  But I don't feel as confused anymore.  I feel rather settled on that behavior being unacceptable, and I start to focus on efforts to extract myself. 

I'm worse when I am confused, and that happens during the "good" times.  I place the good in quotes because I am noticing even during the good times, there are plenty of moments that aren't so good and I still feel eggshells under my feet.  I only say "good" because there is no active screaming, name calling, throwing things, hitting, or serious abuse.  Perhaps "calm" is a better word, or as you used, "quiet".

The calm times are when my anxiety is highest.  I feel weird sometimes saying "I love you" or giving any kind of promises or optimism over the future, because I remember how bad it has been, and how bad it will probably be again. During these times, I have time to think, and that is when I feel confused.  On one hand, she shows that loving persona again, and I feel hopeful that things are moving in a positive direction, and it's hard to hold myself back from thinking about things like marriage or having a family.  But in the same thought, I feel like I can't move forward, but feel really guilty about potentially hurting her if I were to say I am no longer interested in having a child or getting married. 

As for timing between dysregulation - early last summer it seemed to be about once per week.  Frankly, the only thing that kept me in the relationship was that we live together and that meant forced contact after the rage.  Then we went through a period where she got extremely stressed out and depressed, and for the most part refrained from taking it out on me, and instead threatened suicide about every day.  Then she went into the hospital, has been seeing a therapist more regularly, and now I would say it is about once per month between the rages.

[hergestridge]

But I have realised recently it is actually during the quiet times, where she is sweet and loving.

In those times, I reflect on how I wish it could be like this most of the time.

I was thinking about this today actually. My wife has three main phases:

1. The angry phase

2. The "breakdown"/depressive phase

3. The happy phase

At first glance I should hate her angry phase, feel sorry for her  in her depressive phase and be glad for her in her happy phase.

But that is not so.

Her angry phase just fills me with fear and unease. I have coping strategies and ways to deal with her to minimize the damage. 

During the depressive phase she leaves me be for a while and I feel strangely empowered. I can take care of business and for once I can relax knowing that she won't make a scene or change my plans all of a sudden.

During the happy phase I'm truly walking on eggshells because she's forgotten all the bad stuff we've been through together and she assumes I've done the same. If I'm not as happy as her the happy phase might as well be over, and you dont' want to be around when that happens.

I hate the happy phase, because to me there's nothing happy about it. My wife was hospitalized a while ago and she came home "happy" after just having been suicidal just a few days earlier. It's so false. I can see in her eyes that she's happy, but there's hate in her eyes. She hates how I'm not happy. She looks at me with impatience, wondering why I'm not laughing at her jokes, wondering why I don't want to plan a vacation a few days after her hospitalization.

Her brother (now dead) was exactly the same. He'd show up one day and be "happy", and f**k you if you'd burst his bubble! 

I used to think that it was all about me and my own feelings when my bpf wife was "normal", but when thought about closer my wife is very, very demanding when she is "happy"/normal. What happens when she "crashes" after a conflict or some sort os stress reaction is that she loses energy, becomes more introverted for a period of time andstops crossing my boundaries. All of a sudden it become possible for me to be a parent, communicate (more or less) normally with my wife and plan my own time without tough negotations. Once she's back on her feet that's a thing of the past of course... .

[dontknow2]

I feel at the lowest when... .reality is smacking me hard that my hope for a better future together is just foolish.

Him Severely Hurt/Disordered + Me Hurt/Disordered Traits does not compute  :'(

[amja77]

Good question.

I think I feel my lowest when I've considered the fact that I've "lost" myself.

What I mean by this is I have changed for the worst. I've pushed loved ones away, began to lie and manipulate others because of my own frustrations, etc.

I'm the lowest when I can no longer see myself... .I can only see them (pwBPD).

[Samuel S.]

I feel the low when I am with my BPDw, because I am grieving what we had--a close, loving relationship. When we are actually in the same room, she berates not me directly, but she talks negatively, although she says she is feeling very positive while berating everyone else. I feel the low when I am not with her, because I wish we could have time together away from this house. BTW, this house used to be our home, a place of love, warmth, compassion. Now, it is just another house. So, I am low all the time, although the only thing that really perks me up is being around positive, loving people and doing different projects--most of which I would give up in a heartbeat, if she and I were close again, but that's not going to happen unfortunately. I also frankly have been quite close to almost having 2 affairs, but I know that's not the answer. So, I haven't pursued those 2 women nor will I pursue them or any other women.

[froggy]

I've been hurt so much over the years that I am numb to it all now.

Think I'm at my lowest now as I'm really taking account of all I've allowed over the years... .how lost I've become how stuck I feel.

Realizing I can't do this much longer and I really have to deal with my own depression before I can move forward.

Here's to 2014 and moving forward

[Pearl55]

These phases are nothing to do with YOU guys. Why you are so obsessed about these phases?

I'm asking you a question. If you ever been recycled before how come they were able to control themselves during the recycling?

When there is no need to control themselves, for instance when there is no fear of abandonment so phases of disorder appear which is nothing to do with you. Certainly some behaviours might trigger their reactions but again you don't do it on a purpose.

For example when I was pregnant for the whole 8 months my husband was the most genuine loving caring ... .That' an endlist list. I thought thats it. He became well forever. We had the most beautiful time together.

8 days after my son was born he banged my head with my laptop!

And then I realised he wanted to replace my son with me and from his INTELIGENCE he knew I must have a calm time to a have healthy baby so controlled his EMOTOINS during that period and after that there was no need for controlling himself anymore.


If is a part of disorder is NOTHING to do with YOU or if it's FAKE like my example is NOTHING to do with you neither. So sad

[hergestridge]

If is a part of disorder is NOTHING to do with YOU or if it's FAKE like my example is NOTHING to do with you neither. So sad

It's nothing to do with me?

The difference between bipolarity and BPD is that the bipolar has mood swings independently of what the partner does or says. The BPD has mood swings when triggered by the things that happen around them, things that people say to them. So I really can't help being involved in my BPD wive's ever revolvning miniature drama, triggering the different phases with the things I do and say.

I've never noticed that she's been able to "turn off" the phases for any length of time. There's been times when life's been wonderful, when it's been like we've won the lottery and there's objectively been reasons for us to be happy together, and she's been that desperate look in her eyes when she's just waiting for a reason to go cold, angry and hateful. She just can bring a smile to her face. Her whole being screams "Please! I can't do this right now!. That's when she's just so desperate to pick a fight.

[Pearl55]

A three year old sees his/her world in a black or white sort of way. They think that you either love them or hate them, based on your facial expressions, tone of voice and behaviors. As they haven't yet developed the capacity for mood regulation, they'll react to the slightest frustration or disappointment, by hating you! As soon as their immediate upset passes, they revert to loving you again. Their feelings and perceptions of you can shift on a dime; within the vernacular of borderline pathology, this love you/hate you phenomenon is referred to as 'splitting.'

Herges

How about your seduction phase? Certainly she behavioued otherwise you wouldn't marry her.

[Pearl55]

Borderlines are addicted to chaos and drama. Calm environments are disturbing to them so need to rag to feel LIVELY and use us as old punch bags.

[hergestridge]

Herges

How about your seduction phase? Certainly she behavioued otherwise you wouldn't marry her.

She was like that from day one basically. I was an idiot for accepting that of course, but many factors made it more livable. For starters she didn't turn on me for the first ten years. Her targets were others friends and family members. Plus the mood swings became much worse when kids, work and other "grown up" issues put preassure on her.

She was 16 when we met. I thought she'd grow up. At 26 I thought I'd give her time.

[Pearl55]

Herges

You are not an idiot but if she is a borderline, she will not grow up emotionally. Forget about the past and ask yourself do you want to continue like this? Probably you are very young so you've got so many opportunities.

[Monarch Butterfly]

I feel at my lowest when he is in the good phases, because I see what this relationship could have been. Maybe that´s why I´ve been in it so long, and why it took me so long to let go. I used to see hope (where there was none, just lies) and that hurt. Still hurts.

[LifeIsBeautiful]

This is so true. When I stopped engaging in her anger, the topic of separation came up frequently. The peacefulness was "boring" and she actively sought out opportunities for crazy-making, and the best thing was that I caused it. This is draining me and I don't know how to cope with it.

Borderlines are addicted to chaos and drama. Calm environments are disturbing to them so need to rag to feel LIVELY and use us as old punch bags.

.

[free-n-clear]

You'll be at your saddest when you finally, inevitably realise that it will keep getting worse, never better, and move over to the leaving board.

[an0ught]

Hmm,

How long have you managed to go without being involved in some sort of dysregulation from your partner?

that is a curiously worded statement  .

There are still quite a few instances of dysregulation. But I'm usually not involved anymore. Her problem to fix and thus fixed much faster than any time before.

And I also just wait for the next meltdown, which is pretty much comes every few days.

You are focused on the drama. Which is natural as big drama often has big impact on you. That is where boundaries are important. You can't avoid being touched by it but it is often possible to avoid being hit by it.

But I have realised recently it is actually during the quiet times, where she is sweet and loving.

In those times, I reflect on how I wish it could be like this most of the time.

And I also just wait for the next meltdown, which is pretty much comes every few days.

Good observation. Somehow like being hypnotized or addicted. Intermittent re-enforcement can be a quite powerful mechanism. Instead of feeling bad about it and fight it - or ignoring it and embrace the drama - can you aim at balancing it out some way? Establish other routines, interests and outside links to dampen the ups and downs?

Watching her spinning makes your head spinning. Focusing harder on her is not the solution... .

[Cipher13]

I am at my lowest when... .

1. When I am being accused of things I couldn't even possible come up with on my own.

2. When wife uses guilt that has even just the slightest bit of truth no matter how old the situation is.

3. When she tells me how negatively I feel about her, and soemtimes it is true eventhough I have never outwordly expressed it in the slightest.

4. When I know I have to say "no" but can't so I try to sugar coat somethign else for her to try to figue it out herself. That never has worked.

[LostInWonderland]

The calm times are when my anxiety is highest.  I feel weird sometimes saying "I love you" or giving any kind of promises or optimism over the future, because I remember how bad it has been, and how bad it will probably be again. During these times, I have time to think, and that is when I feel confused.  On one hand, she shows that loving persona again, and I feel hopeful that things are moving in a positive direction, and it's hard to hold myself back from thinking about things like marriage or having a family.  But in the same thought, I feel like I can't move forward, but feel really guilty about potentially hurting her if I were to say I am no longer interested in having a child or getting married. 

Oh man, you hit the nail on the head with this part. The calm times are the hardest, oddly enough. It's because you don't know if you did something right, or if the TV is working okay, or if you texted them back quickly enough, or if you try to wake them up at the wrong time, or if you talked to the wrong person - and so on and so forth. You just don't know when the match is going to strike and ignite them. Then there's what kind of rage is this going to turn into? Rage then blame me? Rage then self loathing? Rage then self-harm? A combination or all three and more? I always walk on eggshells. Tip toe-ing through life simply 'trying' to have a normal, healthy, loving relationship.

That's when I am at my lowest too. Either that, or when it turns into him wanting to hurt himself physically. That brings me way low, too... .

[janey62]

I hate to say it Lost, but I don't think you're gonna get a normal, healthy, loving relationship with a BPD partner... .   It certainly seems unlikely.

I'm pretty low with this r/s all of the time now, mostly because his mood swings, episodes, or whatever they are are happening every 3 days on average. 

We had two or three months a while back when all was well, things were good and I felt happy, but then he moved in with me, then went again 9 days later and since then it's been pretty downhill.

Today I took him to the nurse to dress his leg (he's been injuring himself a lot lately whilst drunk) and then we drove around for a bit then went and bought food for lunch.  We drove past a house he says is for rent and as we pulled up outside to look we were opposite a farm the farmer was casually and viciously kicking his dog in the road in front of us.  The dog was scared and I felt furious and upset (all things I'm not allowed to show or feel.  I revved the car a little as I drove past the farmer and he scowled at me.  My bf is now accusing me of being psycho and threatening to report me to the police, etc.  I stand by my actions, did no harm to anyone... . but it gave him a perfect excuse to have a go at me and here we go again.  He is now saying, again, that he wants to end the r/s and that I am a terrible person and never loved him and so on and so forth. 

I'm beginning to see that whatever I do or don't do it makes no difference, he will still go round and round in his crazy cycle of angry, sad, loving/happy.  I'm finding the happy phase hardest though I think because he expects me to be happy and its hard to be genuinely happy when I'm so scared and if I'm not happy enough it makes him angry.  I think I'm breaking down and that's affecting him and causing the cycle to happen more rapidly.  I won't actually break down though!  I will leave before that happens... . I'm a survivor if nothing else.

[elemental]

I feel lowest when things have been going well, then his ex wife crooks her finger and says he can go visit his kids. It all goes completely crap at that point over and over and over and over  

And instead of doing something to help himself, he spirals down and passively watches as she decides they are "together" again and a "family" which she then protects by attacking and harrassing me.

Any show of upset from me over it is immediately brutally slammed into me by him and he starts getting really verbally nasty and mocking and just tbh an out right jerk.

Rinse, recycle... .

[janey62]

That sounds awful Zencat!  Poor you!  I hate it when I know its coming, usually after a good time... .

If mine hears from his ex in any form I get it in the neck... . the fallout is always bad on that one.

I had a dear friend of mine come to visit us a month or so ago.  I used to work for her and she's something of a role model for me.  She and the bf got on famously.  He bought us lunch, they chatted and he charmed her and she charmed him.  He showed her around the boat (which he lives on) which she enthused about, then having had more chats and dinner with me hardly able to get a word in she left the next day telling me how wonderful she thought he and our life was here.  I tried to join in, was smiling outwardly but inside I felt myself sinking because sure enough as soon as she'd gone it started.  He accused me of not appreciating the boat, saying that I was a huge disappointment, ungrateful, didn't love him, etc. 

He maintains that I never liked it, it was too small, smelled of diesel, that I let him down.  The fact is he kicked me out after one night and I had to find a place to live having given up my home and job to go and live with him (huge mistake).  He tells all his friends that I didn't like it though! 

It feels as if we're nearing the centre of a huge storm now, there is hardly any time in between his episodes any more.  He gets drunk every evening and is completely unreasonable and attacks me constantly.  I'm so tired... .

[waverider]

I feel at my lowest when I have woken up to another " Ground Hog Day",

I feel like my best when I then choose not to walk down the same street.

[waverider]

I'm beginning to see that whatever I do or don't do it makes no difference, he will still go round and round in his crazy cycle of angry, sad, loving/happy.  I'm finding the happy phase hardest though I think because he expects me to be happy and its hard to be genuinely happy when I'm so scared and if I'm not happy enough it makes him angry.  I think I'm breaking down and that's affecting him and causing the cycle to happen more rapidly.  I won't actually break down though!  I will leave before that happens... . I'm a survivor if nothing else.

Often this is the case, and when we get involved in these cycles, often all we are doing is dropping pebbles in a spinning bucket. It just adds to the noise, we can't stop the bucket from spinning.

Step back and stop watching the bucket, then you wont end up dizzy.

[waverider]

A three year old sees his/her world in a black or white sort of way. They think that you either love them or hate them, based on your facial expressions, tone of voice and behaviors. As they haven't yet developed the capacity for mood regulation, they'll react to the slightest frustration or disappointment, by hating you! As soon as their immediate upset passes, they revert to loving you again. Their feelings and perceptions of you can shift on a dime; within the vernacular of borderline pathology, this love you/hate you phenomenon is referred to as 'splitting.'

Herges

How about your seduction phase? Certainly she behavioued otherwise you wouldn't marry her.

During the seduction/idealization phase, going back to the child analogy, they had an empty toy box (no sense of self), you become the new toy, their only toy. They will play with it endlessly (adopt your sense of self, interests, and values) and play with them until all options are exhausted.

As this is all make believe and fantasy once their imagination is exhausted with the new toy all this adopted imaginary world fades as it is not the real them.

They become frustrated with the new toy as it is not providing the same buzz as it once did. They blame the toy even though it is exactly the same. They abuse the toy, or replace it.

If that toy had feelings then it would be devastated, once loved, now discarded.

You are being that toy and you do have feelings.

A toy works reactively it cannot think for itself. You can be proactive, you can choose not to be as a toy.

[janey62]

I stepped back today Waverider and it felt ok. 

It was another day of text abuse and rejection and bile mixed with pleas to please come and get him and in amongst that I told him kindly that I was only prepared to see him if he was sober and able to be respectful to me.

I got the, 'this is awful and I love you' message then the, 'can I come and see you now?' message which I missed because I had the sound off on my phone, then I got the, 'but I need you,' message.  I said I wasn't prepared to come to his place at 11.30pm and would talk to him tomorrow.  His reply was, 'that just about sums you up you selfish b***h.'

I feel good though because I can hear myself think away from the pebbles and bucket!  I would normally have let him come and listened to his abuse until he cried then fell asleep.

at the end of this tunnel after all ... .

[Hopeless777]

These replies are all so true. My wife wants to know where my bright blue eyes went? How can I tell her she stole them away? I'm at my lowest when she is all happy, because we all know what is coming. She calls me the fallen bright and shining star... . look it up... . code word is Lucifer. How does one even respond? I have marriage vows! How can I break a godly covenant after 25 years? Often death seems the only escape.

[free-n-clear]

I have marriage vows! How can I break a godly covenant after 25 years? Often death seems the only escape.

Breaking marriage vows (after having given everything to try to make it work for 25 years) is surely a lesser sin than the other option alluded to. If she's genuinely BPD, chances are the adultery clause applies anyway. I don't mean to make light of your religious beliefs, just concerned about the last line in your post. 

[Pearl55]

Hopeless777

You are not in a marriage! Your marriage is only a contract. You could be anybody in your wife's life!

[froggy]

I have marriage vows! How can I break a godly covenant after 25 years? Often death seems the only escape.

This is exactly how I feel most days Hopless777... . except I've been in this for 33 years.

The more I read here the less hope I have that he will ever be able to meet any of my needs. I have emotionally disengaged and I'm stay because I promised I would... . and like you most days I feel like the line in "paradise by the dashboard lights" by Meatloaf.

... "so now I'm praying for the end of time... to hurry up and arrive. ... cause if I have to spend another minute with you I don't think that I can really survive.

I'll never break my promise or forget my vows. .but God only knows what I know right now... . praying for the end of time is all that I can do... . praying for the end of time... so I can end my time with you"