Circular arguments

[frustrated b/f]

I can remember having discussions/disagreements/arguments with my ex uBPD g/f about something I inevitably did and after I would painstakingly take the time to explain the circumstances surrounding the misunderstanding, she would say the same exact thing as if I'd never spoken! It drove me mad and I kept buying into it until I finally realized the pattern and just gave up.

Since we share so many similar r/s characteristics with each other, I'm wondering if this was unique to my situation or if anyone else ever experienced it?

[babyspook]

Frustrated,

Ha ha!  Yes, mine would do that to me all the time as if she suddenly had the epiphany.  Apparently whatever I had said she interpreted it as if I were that teacher from Charlie Brown (Muah, muah, mauh, mauh).  Yeah, had to give up too. 

[frustrated b/f]

Frustrated,

Ha ha!  Yes, mine would do that to me all the time as if she suddenly had the epiphany.  Apparently whatever I had said she interpreted it as if I were that teacher from Charlie Brown (Muah, muah, mauh, mauh).  Yeah, had to give up too. 

WOW, I just bust out laughing in my cubicle at work! Ditto, Ditto, Ditto!

[Pretty Woman]

MY personal favorite... .the "no win" situation.

Two days before she dumped me she was very agitated. I called her to wish her a nice day and to drive safe (weather was rough). The next day I invited her over for dinner and she tells me she is not ready to "forgive and forget" (I was having a very bad weekend and was sad a friend was not speaking to me).

That Monday I made up with the friend.

I called my ex on my way home and this was the conversation:

Me: I have to go, pulling into my destination.

Her: Where are you?

Me: Bar _____

Her: Who are you meeting?

Me:_____

Her: Seriously? You put me through all your depression crap this weekend and you are now speaking? She is your GD work wife. She probably made everything up. I don't trust her.

Me: No, _____ tried to cause issues between us... .

Her: (interrupting) Whatever! Such a waste of my time. I wanted to go to Barhit_

Me: There are plenty of bars in the area.

Her: F'you!

Me: I'm just saying.  I'm probably not even going to stay. It's been a bad weekend with this.

Her: Who the f' do you think you are? She is your good friend and you are going to treat her like that? What kind of friend are you? (me to myself:huh?)

Me: Well I am going in.

Her: f'in waste of a conversation.

Minutes later I text her:

Me: I'm leaving

Her: I don't believe you.

Me: No, I told her I am going.

Her: I bet you are lying and still there.

[momtara]

Yes.  This happened with my ex-husband.  Usually I would have to repeat the same thing three or four times and then finally he'd drop it with a "FINE!"  He wouldn't acknowledge it or think about what I said or respond to it except to repeat what he just said.  Very standard for BPD.

[BorderlineMagnet]

My first BPDexgf was like this to a tee. Are fights would start with her being sarcastic/raging, then her being hurt when I got sucked in to the argument and fought back, then we would make up and seemingly resolve it, and finally right back to the sarcastic/rage stage. Like clockwork every single ___ing time.

[zkirtz]

Exactly! the very same. It goes

how did you dare to turn the light of you know how I hate that;

- I am sorry so so sorry, turned the light of in order to sleep I won't do it ever again, I just forgot it was out of habit

-you always abandon me when I need you most, you never take me into account, it is not just the light you also forgot to put yout toothbrush in the glass

-Yes, I am very sorry I forgot

-You know how much I hate that

-I had to go to work and as a matter of fact, I have to go to work right now.

-like I am very sad I need your help but you are never there for me

- but I need to work! Not only for me, also for you!

-slap in the face

But the thing is it is not only he who was circular at the time, I was circular. I kept defending, even for toothbrushes. I was so sorry for all his misery, his sad life of sitting at home doing nothing while I was so selfish as to work until late, buy groceries, do the dishes, walk the dog, be nice all the time, put the toothbrush in the glass.

It's like there is no other way.

[Changingman]

Yes yes yes

Almost anything everything. Dumb

If I said that would be dumb she'd do it, like she couldn't think of her own S***.

Endless talk about the same stuff never reaching any conclusions.

Night after night

So glad she's gone

[fromheeltoheal]

Oh yes, there was no productive conversation.  She'd store up things to use as come-backs, and if I brought up anything I wasn't happy about she'd hit me with 4 or 5 things.  Initially I wanted to have win-win conversations, you know, the kind people who are trying to work on a relationship have?  Well, she was always win-lose so I ended up going there too, just to add to the dysfunction.  In the end what we had was much closer to a war than a mutually beneficial relationship.

The bottom line was she was far more concerned with being in control, being in a one-up position, protecting herself, all motivated by intense shame, self loathing and low self-esteem; she figured if she "lost" one of those bouts her world would crumble.  There's no way to build a relationship from that place, and there's nothing for me there.

[GreenMango]

A lot of those circular conversations aren't about what's being said.  They are about other things - usually emotions, perceptions of events, etc.  And hidden beneath the circular repeats or accusations is the feelings of the person - they feel something but its coming out all sideways.

At the heart its to communicate and validation can be great if you are with a person who tends to get into these.  Intimate communication being a large part of romantic relationships.

Validating feelings.  Everyone likes to be heard - BPD or not.  It isn't about facts.  It also means not staying around for verbal abuse if it goes that way.

Learning how to be a better communicator and listener can be super helpful for other relationships too.  Listening is an art.

Check out the workshop on Validation. 

[Traumatized]

I was just thinking that one of the reasons they may make circular arguments and keep bringing up "resolved" issues from the past is that they are constantly testing us.  They want to make sure that we are consistent with our answers and that we are being honest with them.  That we truly love them and that they can trust us.  They put us through the wringer to see if we'll slip up and reveal something that contradicts what we said before.

[fromheeltoheal]

I was just thinking that one of the reasons they may make circular arguments and keep bringing up "resolved" issues from the past is that they are constantly testing us.  They want to make sure that we are consistent with our answers and that we are being honest with them.  That we truly love them and that they can trust us.  They put us through the wringer to see if we'll slip up and reveal something that contradicts what we said before.

My experience is that women constantly test men in general, and add that a borderline is convinced they will be abandoned, it's just a matter of when, so there's a component of paranoia that goes with the testing.  Contentment, sustainability, trust, commitment, these things don't exist.  Let's heal and go find them elsewhere.

[Aw511]

I had one of these a couple days ago. The first real conversation I've had with him since the breakup. Somehow I forgot the madness that comes with trying to communicate and be rational with him. I lost and will always lose, now matter what I say or do. Blaming, defensiveness, bringing up things that have been long forgotten or so I thought. God, I don't miss it. Most frustrating thing ever... .

[RecycledNoMore]

I was just thinking that one of the reasons they may make circular arguments and keep bringing up "resolved" issues from the past is that they are constantly testing us.  They want to make sure that we are consistent with our answers and that we are being honest with them.  That we truly love them and that they can trust us.  They put us through the wringer to see if we'll slip up and reveal something that contradicts what we said before.

Yes!, thank you!

Ex- you never loved me

Me- you know I love you, please why are you doing this

Ex- you told me at the beginning of our r/ s ( 8 frikin years ago), that you were still in love with your ex

Me- what are you talking about?, I NEVER said that, I would never say something so hurtful to you babe, please, listen to me I love you!

Ex- you never loved me

Arghhhhhh&%$#@*&%$## !

[GreenMango]

I was just thinking that one of the reasons they may make circular arguments and keep bringing up "resolved" issues from the past is that they are constantly testing us.  They want to make sure that we are consistent with our answers and that we are being honest with them.  That we truly love them and that they can trust us.  They put us through the wringer to see if we'll slip up and reveal something that contradicts what we said before.

Yes!, thank you!

Ex- you never loved me

Me- you know I love you, please why are you doing this

Ex- you told me at the beginning of our r/ s ( 8 frikin years ago), that you were still in love with your ex

Me- what are you talking about?, I NEVER said that, I would never say something so hurtful to you babe, please, listen to me I love you!

Ex- you never loved me

Arghhhhhh&%$#@*&%$## !

This is a good example of invalidating even though you wouldn't think so because you know you loved the person.

The person feels unloved.  There's not a lot you can do to prove it because quite frankly you probably already have and the facts don't matter.

This is crux of dealing with someone with this type of emotional instability.  The feelings are facts.  It can be frustrating.

You can't argue an irrational feeling comment like that it just proves to the other person how much you don't love them.  It's adding negative to negative but understandably kneejerk when you are accused of something off the wall.  It's the disorder talking.

In situations like these acknowledging the feelings like in - "That must be awful to feel like I don't love you" or gentle questions probing the root of where it came from usually results in less circular stuff.  Not everyone has the endurance for this type of neediness.

It takes really savvy communication skills and it is real easy to get wrapped up in someone else's emotional chaos. 

[Nearlybroken]

O, the circular arguments... .there were many.My ex would bring something up( actually normally make something up) about things I had done.I would try and explain (using he truth to support what I was saying) and when the truth got too much for him he would twist my side into something sinister.Exhausting.Everything was distorted so it was about him.One of my particular favourites ( i have a choice of many):

Ex:You always see the bad side of me.

Me:Where is this coming from.If you talk to me then we can talk through it and maybe you can see that I don't.

EX:Talking is over-rated and you go on... It achieves nothing.No point trying to reason with you.

Me: I think talking is the way to solve stuff but if you dont want to talk then I guess I will just have to leave it.

Ex: You see... .you make no effort.

Me:Well, I said I wanted to talk but you don't so what can I do?

Ex:Try reading my mind.

Me: Errrrr... .I think we both know I can't read minds.

Ex:You see,you cant even be bothered to do that for me.I don't know why I bother.

[broken3]

NB

Had to laugh.

"you should know i went food shopping. We needed food".

" you should know I never said xxxx" to someone at her work

" you should know where i am"

" you should know I have a headache"

If you don't tell me. How am I supposed to know... .I am not a mind reader... .

[Ironmanrises]

Her: You don't want to f¥ck me? Why are you not hard?

(Prior to asking me these questions she would cut me down with belittling comments)

Me: I do want to have sex. Do you not hear what you just said to me before asking me? I can't get hard when you speak to me like that.

Her: Any guy that saw me naked right now in this position(sprawled across her staircase) would immediately get hard and start f£cking me. I don't understand why you are not hard? You do not want me Ironmanfalls?

MeLooking at her in disbelief) Morena, you just spoke to me in a nasty way before, I cannot get aroused when you speak to me like that. Do you not hear what you had just said to me?

Her: Come with me to the shower, let's have sex in there. I want you to f¥ck me.

MeStill in disbelief) No.

The entire time this exchange was going on, I saw the look of rejection on her face and all I could think was, "I am not getting through to her. She does not hear me." This was in devaluation in round 2. On the day she left me, she threw in my face, "How was I supposed to know my man was going to stop f¥cking me? My mother was right, she does not even know you, she was right, you must be gay." I wanted to scream.

[frustrated b/f]

I was just thinking that one of the reasons they may make circular arguments and keep bringing up "resolved" issues from the past is that they are constantly testing us.  They want to make sure that we are consistent with our answers and that we are being honest with them.  That we truly love them and that they can trust us.  They put us through the wringer to see if we'll slip up and reveal something that contradicts what we said before.

Yes, Yes, Yes! I often felt like she needed to be convinced of the truth through repetitiveness. I would have to say the same thing over and over, and over for her to believe it. She would probe my answers for any inconsistency she could find. Like GM said, her feelings were facts! Googling "Turning feelings into facts" is what brought me to this board!

It's been really therapeutic to hear other people with similar stories. I couldn't talk to anyone else about these issues because they just didn't understand. Being such a logical and rational person, being in a r/s with my ex was literally driving me insane!

[MrFox]

We honestly didn't fight all that often because we went from the honeymoon phase to scorched earth policy.  In the few fights we did have I got this:

Me: (Trying to remain calm, speaking softly, evenly.  I know I have a problem with being defensive and angry so I try very hard to not to get worked up)

Her:  It's like you don't have any emotions.  You don't care.

Me:  I care very much, I just don't want to yell at each other.

Her: It's like you are dead inside.

Me:  (Losing my cool and raising my voice) I care.  I love you.

Her:  Why are yelling?  You are scaring me.

Me: (calming down) I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to scare you.  I care very much about this and I want to talk.

Her:  See? It's like you are dead inside.

[broken but not beaten]

Circular arguements oh yes... .many times I've felt like running into the nearest brick wall as hard as I could thinking it would make sense,told my ex in the end you can reason with the unresonable and I was getting off the merry go round ride

[Perfidy]

FBF... Whenever I find my self saying the same thing twice in one conversation I know the conversation is over. After that there is no further communication. I did indulge in this more often with her. She didn't really ever hear anything that I thought was important anyway. Most of my concerns fell on deaf ears, especially if the words had anything to do with my needs or boundaries. Talking in circles is frustrating to say the least. There were so many behaviors unique to that relationship. It remains an anomaly to me. 

[zkirtz]

Circular arguments are certainly not typical for women. I am a woman, I do not do this. Not ever.  I am very rational. My ex did this circular, hysteric thing all the time. He is a man. If you do not want to believe it, please let me introduce him to you. He is desperate for friends and a very violent, tough macho type of person.

Now that we got that out of the way.

My sister said once that you had to talk people into a certain mood. If they are angry they need to be reassured and by defending yourself, they are not reassured because then they are afraid you leave them. It is a nonsense thought because it is an emotional argument and when you argue your point of view scientifically, it does not matter. ´

The circular arguments happen, because they are afraid for something. Comfort, calmth, welness, love and caress help. Reason does not do much.

[RecycledNoMore]

I was just thinking that one of the reasons they may make circular arguments and keep bringing up "resolved" issues from the past is that they are constantly testing us.  They want to make sure that we are consistent with our answers and that we are being honest with them.  That we truly love them and that they can trust us.  They put us through the wringer to see if we'll slip up and reveal something that contradicts what we said before.

Yes!, thank you!

Ex- you never loved me

Me- you know I love you, please why are you doing this

Ex- you told me at the beginning of our r/ s ( 8 frikin years ago), that you were still in love with your ex

Me- what are you talking about?, I NEVER said that, I would never say something so hurtful to you babe, please, listen to me I love you!

Ex- you never loved me

Arghhhhhh&%$#@*&%$## !

This is a good example of invalidating even though you wouldn't think so because you know you loved the person.

The person feels unloved.  There's not a lot you can do to prove it because quite frankly you probably already have and the facts don't matter.

This is crux of dealing with someone with this type of emotional instability.  The feelings are facts.  It can be frustrating.

You can't argue an irrational feeling comment like that it just proves to the other person how much you don't love them.  It's adding negative to negative but understandably kneejerk when you are accused of something off the wall.  It's the disorder talking.

In situations like these acknowledging the feelings like in - "That must be awful to feel like I don't love you" or gentle questions probing the root of where it came from usually results in less circular stuff.  Not everyone has the endurance for this type of neediness.

It takes really savvy communication skills and it is real easy to get wrapped up in someone else's emotional chaos. 

Circles within circles within circles.

It never stopped until he felt he was right,and quite right it does take very savvy communication skills which I thought I had, towards the end of the r/ s I was depleted

I gave too much of myself expecting some sort of " emotional return"

I had no idea I was codependant, blissyfully unaware in my victimhood

Never again.

[ugghh]

Another yes yes yes!

It does not matter the subject, time of day, etc.  All that matters is what that at that moment, which is your undivided attention as they desperately seek to prove/disprove that you indeed do not love them.

I think we all come up with techniques for coping with them, many of which I have read in this thread.  The Charlie Brown, LOL.  I would find myself looking right at her but trying to focus on her eyebrows.  She would say the same things over and over until I slowly felt my brain oozing out my ear.

Later I learned the best strategy was to assertively state that I did not wish to continue the argument and simply remove myself from the room.

[frustrated b/f]

I'm not a lazy person, but geez, it just seems like soo much extra-work to be in a r/s with a BPD person. It got to the point where I felt I was working 3x's as hard at the r/s than she was. As much as it hurt, I had to cut my losses. Meeting new women, I bolt at the first sign of unilateral effort to maintain even a conversation. I feel so traumatized at times :=(

[babyspook]

"I would find myself looking right at her but trying to focus on her eyebrows."

Ugghh,

You too, huh?  She'd talk to me for what seemed like hours about her work, co-workers, office drama, etc.  According to her testimonies, everyone was beneath her.  WOW, she would go on and on.  After about five minutes of that, my eyes would just glaze over and I'd start glancing at her physical features (she was HOT!) and periodically nod my head in agreement, or I'd start thinking about fishing, world peace, what I want for dinner, etc.  Quite comical really.

[Pretty Woman]

Mr. Fox,

  Classic.  I can see why I thought I was going nuts.

She seriously was making me ill, driving me crazy with her crazy talking.

[newlife3]

There is a famous saying when it comes to Cluster B personality disorders, including BPD:

Feelings are NOT facts... .so pointless to defend onself, or explain... .as the thinking of the BPD is filled with cognitive distortions... all around their perceived abandonment fears...

[Tincup]

You know it is so nice to read all of these posts.  It is amazing how similar the behaviors are.  The first circular argument I had with her I was like What the heck just happened?  I was married prior to my BPD for 15 years to an extravert outgoing woman and I never had an argument like that.  Never had one that spiked my blood pressure up so fast.  It really is shear craziness... Once I get used to my life being way more quiet and peaceful I will be ok.