I don't know how to respond... please help

[janey62]

Please Help!

I'm in the middle of a crisis, or at least he is, today, now!

I so don't want to make him worse and I've just had an sms from him.  He says that he is the 'master of my own demise.  Thank you for being so kind but it really is my fault.  I hate myself more than you could ever know'.

How should I respond to this?  My instinct is to tell him its not his fault and that he can get well if he tries.  I don't think that's particularly validating.  Help!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Seneca]

Let him own it. Mine did this to me this morning, and every co-dependent fiber of my being was screaming out to comfort him, take him back in, make him feel better. But it is only a short term solution. And he is right - he has destroyed himself. I think it is the wisest choice to either say "I am sorry you feel that way, that must be hard for you." or "Perhaps you could turn things around if you got a little help from a therapist."

Godspeed

[elemental]

validate to him that "it must feel awful to be feeling that way today *hugs* "

That is what I would do, at least, then I would go quiet unless he continued asking for support.

[DreamFlyer99]

Wow--such great answers!

How often do we go through this sort of moment? I know I tend to get too "hopeful" when my uBPDh says something that sounds either self-aware (like yours did, Janey62) or more other-aware than usual. And then I have to remind myself of my T's words about hope, that the only true hope is in what I myself can change. So the best I can do is to keep his words on his side of the net with the "letting him own it" as Seneca said, by saying something like elemental said: "it must feel awful to be feeling that way today *hugs*"

It's so hard for me when I want to swoop in and say "understanding that you've done that to yourself is the first step to changing things!" and make it this Learning Moment. He has to do the understanding and the learning and the choosing to move forward with it. Why can't they see how terribly wise WE are and just listen to us?  

[janey62]

Thanks for all of your wise words.  I unfortunately didn't think to say any of them.  I'm just beginning to realise that there are helpful and unhelpful ways to respond and that my boundaries are rubbish!

What I said was that I love him and gave him xxx es.  He responded by trying to trap me.  He began talking about sex with me in a crude way and then about how disgusted he feels with himself for saying those things, then more self loathing, all the while trying to bait me into getting angry and rejecting him.  I managed to avoid that trap, and the second trap, which was that although he'd left two days ago having hurled abuse at me, he was saying tonight that he missed me and trying to get me to invite him to my flat, even though he was obviously drunk and looking for a verbal fight.  I'm quite good at not reacting most of the time.

In the end I wished him goodnight and said I'd see him tomorrow. 

I want to put some of the suggested boundaries in place so badly but I'm financially dependent on him at the moment and if he rejects me, which he keeps threatening to do, I will be homeless and penniless... .and emotionally battered.  He knows this and is playing a cruel game of cat and mouse with me when he is sick, then feeling guilty and trying to make it up to me by loving me and talking rationally and buying me expensive gifts and paying my rent when he is well, then accusing me of using him when he is sick again... .Whatever I do next it will involve taking care of myself and letting him take care of himself.  I've let myself get drawn into this codependent thing where I look after him and protect him from things he finds difficult in an attempt to lessen his symptoms, but gradually I see that its about us, the relationship. 

I've read a lot of stuff today and it all feels a bit surreal.  I am now just realising what exactly I've got myself into.  All that stuff about how good it is when its good I can relate to.  I actually forget, as does he, how awful it is.  He says the most terrible things to me and totally rejects me one day then pulls me back in again so easily that I fear I'm losing all of my self respect.  Is there something about BPD people that is irresistibly attractive?  Or am I only happy when I'm in pain? 

This site is amazing and I wish I'd found it sooner, though the timing is probably perfect because things are so bad that I can't deny it any more.  Thank you all for your honesty... .

[Seneca]

Thanks for all of your wise words.  I unfortunately didn't think to say any of them.  I'm just beginning to realise that there are helpful and unhelpful ways to respond and that my boundaries are rubbish!

What I said was that I love him and gave him xxx es.  He responded by trying to trap me.  He began talking about sex with me in a crude way and then about how disgusted he feels with himself for saying those things, then more self loathing, all the while trying to bait me into getting angry and rejecting him.  I managed to avoid that trap, and the second trap, which was that although he'd left two days ago having hurled abuse at me, he was saying tonight that he missed me and trying to get me to invite him to my flat, even though he was obviously drunk and looking for a verbal fight.  I'm quite good at not reacting most of the time.

In the end I wished him goodnight and said I'd see him tomorrow. 

I want to put some of the suggested boundaries in place so badly but I'm financially dependent on him at the moment and if he rejects me, which he keeps threatening to do, I will be homeless and penniless... .and emotionally battered.  He knows this and is playing a cruel game of cat and mouse with me when he is sick, then feeling guilty and trying to make it up to me by loving me and talking rationally and buying me expensive gifts and paying my rent when he is well, then accusing me of using him when he is sick again... .Whatever I do next it will involve taking care of myself and letting him take care of himself.  I've let myself get drawn into this codependent thing where I look after him and protect him from things he finds difficult in an attempt to lessen his symptoms, but gradually I see that its about us, the relationship. 

I've read a lot of stuff today and it all feels a bit surreal.  I am now just realising what exactly I've got myself into.  All that stuff about how good it is when its good I can relate to.  I actually forget, as does he, how awful it is.  He says the most terrible things to me and totally rejects me one day then pulls me back in again so easily that I fear I'm losing all of my self respect.  Is there something about BPD people that is irresistibly attractive?  Or am I only happy when I'm in pain? 

This site is amazing and I wish I'd found it sooner, though the timing is probably perfect because things are so bad that I can't deny it any more.  Thank you all for your honesty... .

You're right Janey, when it is good... .I don't know whether it is simply relief, or that compared to their disregulated selves they look like heroes in a romance novel or what... but when they are on, it's like amnesia. You could almost forget the constant fear and anxiety, the way you have changed yourself and actions to protect them and you, and the mental, emotional, sexual or physical abuse. Mine was all apologetic and humble and meek and begging for chances today... .crying and flowers, the whole lot. It took all my strength not to buy it again. I had to keep coming here and looking in my diary to relive the horrors and remind myself of how deep these valleys are.

As far as being afraid he'll leave you in the lurch financially, I wouldn't worry about that. The whole point of BPD is an utter terror of being abandoned. The only way they abandon their codependent is if they find a replacement. Mine has threatened to leave so many dang times... .but he can't follow through! He NEEDS me. And yours needs you. But that ain't healthy. So I'd get to working on that financial independence thing, so you can do what is right for yourself. 

[janey62]

Hey Seneca,

I can't stop crying now, with relief!   I thought I was alone, that I was going mad, that I was weak and pathetic and that I somehow deserved to be in this horrible predicament.

The support I've had from you and this site has been incredible and I think its actually a turning point in my life. 

He lives on a boat down on the river moored in a Marina and I took a little pleasure this morning when looking out to see 32mph winds tossing him about.  He will be feeling very hung over and very seasick at this moment! 

Yesterday I also found a therapist who seems to be experienced in working with mental health issues and BPD and will find a tactful way to pass that info to him.  He has recently gone to medical professionals for help and is willing to do more, so maybe there is some hope for him.  In the meantime I can stay strong now with the help and support of my new found support Family and keep a safe but supportive distance from him. 

Sounds like you have a daily struggle to stay strong too?  I think we get so caught up in the relationship because it is so intense and loving when its good, and I agree that there is relief there too.  He is so lovely to me when he's well and in a sad sort of a way I thought I'd found what I was looking for, all encompassing love.  I think it might help if we look at ourselves and at why we're drawn to this, however hard that may be.  Looking  back now I can see that I spent my entire childhood trying to manage and help my mother who probably had BPD, she certainly had the symptoms.  In the meantime we can stay strong together.

Jane 

[janey62]

Hey Seneca,

I can't stop crying now, with relief!   I thought I was alone, that I was going mad, that I was weak and pathetic and that I somehow deserved to be in this horrible predicament.

The support I've had from you and this site has been incredible and I think its actually a turning point in my life. 

He lives on a boat down on the river moored in a Marina and I took a little pleasure this morning when looking out to see 32mph winds tossing him about.  He will be feeling very hung over and very seasick at this moment! 

Yesterday I also found a therapist who seems to be experienced in working with mental health issues and BPD and will find a tactful way to pass that info to him.  He has recently gone to medical professionals for help and is willing to do more, so maybe there is some hope for him.  In the meantime I can stay strong now with the help and support of my new found support Family and keep a safe but supportive distance from him. 

Sounds like you have a daily struggle to stay strong too?  I think we get so caught up in the relationship because it is so intense and loving when its good, and I agree that there is relief there too.  He is so lovely to me when he's well and in a sad sort of a way I thought I'd found what I was looking for, all encompassing love.  I think it might help if we look at ourselves and at why we're drawn to this, however hard that may be.  Looking  back now I can see that I spent my entire childhood trying to manage and help my mother who probably had BPD, she certainly had the symptoms.  In the meantime we can stay strong together.

Jane 

Also... .you're right, he won't abandon me, I suddenly realise that too from reading what you've said.

He keeps threatening and says things like, 'that's it, I want nothing more to do with you,' but then 5 minutes later is texting again... .so I guess you're right about that, he is not going to abandon me and actually fears my leaving him terribly.

Thanks again!

[janey62]

Oops, meant to quote a line from your post!  Didn't really mean to quote myself... .still trying to work out the mechanics of the site here... .

[janey62]

Why can't they see how terribly wise WE are and just listen to us?  

The problem is that I'm only wise some of the time.  I know I have my own set of emotional problems.  If I look back at some of my past relationships I can recognise some of those BPD behaviours in myself!  I have been insecure and manipulative, afraid of intimacy, bad at commitment and provocative and critical, my feelings jumped around and I would love someone one minute and not care if I ever saw them again the next! 

I have huge abandonment issues and it seems that all of the men I've been in relationships with have spotted this and exploited it to their advantage, trying to control me.  When my uBPDbf blows up and leaves me for days I turn into a gibbering wreck and climb the walls until he comes back. 

Today he came and went again because I mentioned this BPD stuff to him, trying to keep it neutral but wanting him to listen and be on my side in getting him help.  It was stupid and I didn't really think it through and now I just feel a mess and can't stop crying, again. 

I really am at the end of my tether and don't know how to keep on doing this, yet I worry for him and fear for him and sense his pain and confusion... .  aaarrrggghhhh!



Am I only not as sick as he is?  Does being with him give me a sense of wellness which is false?  I've had many years of therapy already and can't think about more of it... .

[elemental]

Janey, what a rough day for you 

Is it possible for you to continue learning the tools on this site and practice them a while, setting aside trying to talk to him about BPD for now?

Mine does the same running off. It's been just over two weeks and we have had minimal contact, by his choice at this point. He would NEVER entertain the idea of BPD. To his mind, he was stressed badly by his ex, then stressed by me. He informed me a number of times that he is barely stable himself, so he just doesn't have it in him to help out everyone else on top of it. His current time away, he says, is self care to get back some energy and resilience.

I am tired tired tired of the disappearing act. It's so hurtful and it triggers off my abandonment issues too. So scary. I am so happy to have found this site, because I can tell if I am able to use the tools properly, learn some DBT skills and cognitive therapy skills for my own self, and take care of my physical health, then it will improve immensely.


What are you doing to take care of yourself today? Anything special going on? Or anything special you could come up with?

[janey62]

Hi Zencat,

It was pretty rough today.  He did calm down eventually and ask me to go meet him for a drink.  I didn't want to and said I was tired and blotchy and would see him tomorrow but he got angry at that so I went and it wasn't good.

Sigh!  I knew I shouldn't go, wanted to say no but went and it was a mistake... .

I have my two beautiful dogs here with me, they give me love and affection and company.  I walk with them a lot and enjoy being outside.

I applied for jobs this morning and talked to my son via sms.  I have also made a friend here who I can talk to and we go dog walking sometimes.  Her partner is an alcoholic so we have lots in common... .

I called her earlier and arranged to meet one morning. 

Your support and suggestions are really helpful, thanks.  It sounds as if you're going through it too... .you've not had a great Christmas with all that going on?  I will take your advice and try to learn some tools.  I've got a few already being a counsellor, although all of my learning seems to go out the window when I'm being hurt and abandoned and when its personal.  It does help me to remember not to react, sometimes anyway... ..and I try not to get into arguing with him and keep in mind that he is sick. I know that I do make it worse sometimes, and almost know when I'm doing it, but its hard to stop. 

I'm in bed now and he is in his boat.  I miss the calm and loving person he is sometimes but have to accept that its this way now. 

Jane x

[DreamFlyer99]

Janey,

there is so much for many of us to relate to in your story. It would seem that we who love someone with BPD tend to be nurturing and kind, and the fact that you grew up with a mother who was likely BPD (as did I) leaves you in a vulnerable spot too. It can be easy for us to allow ourselves to be exploited in a situation where someone is looking for somebody to take care of them/or to take care of. And chances are, if we grew up with a mom who was BPD we are a bit weak in the boundaries area and just waiting for someone to love us like we thought our mom should have... . all these things snowball into this familiar love/hate relationship with a pwBPD (person with BPD.)

The main thing we need to grasp is that we have allowed ourselves to be taken advantage of or spoken to disrespectfully etc because we thought we were having some need met. But we have to grab hold of what we believe is worth standing up for, make us some boundaries, and then lovingly and respectfully uphold them.

This is probably more about learning about ourselves than anything. As we learn what is the essence of what we actually need rather than think we need we will learn to love ourselves more and be more at peace with ourselves, and not let others trample our boundaries quite so easily. It's the idea of learning to look at the long term goal, not just the one thing right in front of us at the moment.

Does any of that make sense? I feel quite babbly!

This is good: The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships. I hate to say it, but after 30 plus years in a relationship with my uBPDh (undiagnosed BPD husband) I was startled to read this list and realize how far I'd strayed from that, just to try to keep my hubby "happy." And I had to realize that keeping someone else happy isn't even possible, and the whole thing is supposed to be a 2 way deal anyway... .

df99

[janey62]

Absolutely DreamFlyer, not babbly and makes all kinds of sense... .

It's funny because I've not been on here for a couple of days, because uBPDbf was around, but I've been thinking a lot about all that I've read on here, and your words echo my thoughts.

I am a counsellor! Can you believe it?  I teach people this stuff, have done for some time, and yet could not see what I was sliding into.  My counsellor colleagues did an intervention with me last summer and I was very offended and just went on to hide the fact that I was back with him from them.  I even think that I agreed to move two counties away with him so that I could conduct my miserable little misadventure without interference from those who care!  I have now realised, thank goodness, that I've put myself in this position and enabled his abuse by putting up with it.

The thing in my defence is that I'd not knowingly come across BPD personally.  I worked with some clients, mostly women, and developed good, if sketchy, relationships with them.  They all seemed to come to (addictions) treatment and stay until they felt a bit better then go back out there.  They didn't really talk about their relationships, although all had suffered abuse in their lives.  I didn't recognise that my bf was one of them.  He is 'high functioning' I think, which may also be why I didn't spot it.

But what I'm asking myself is why, when he first dumped me and hurled abuse at me, did I have him back?  And why the second and third and 20th times did I have him back?  I think the answer lies in what you say about us being weak in the boundaries area.  I loved my mother and tried to help her and protect her.  She would often lash out and slap my head or face while screaming abuse at me and I would immediately start the process of minimising it, telling her it was ok and didn't hurt because I was so afraid of her self pitying aftermath and possible suicide attempt.  One day I hit her back and she never did it again!  Funny that! 

I agree and know that putting in some (non violent) boundaries is a good thing and essential in finding a way forward.  My bf and I are going to see a therapist next week - his idea.  I don't know how he will cope with it, especially as she is a woman, but we'll see.  I need help, he needs help, and maybe it will spark something off.  The idea is that he then goes to her on his own, his suggestion. 

I've often pondered this fact, that if his emotional abuse were physical I would have walked the first time it happened... . no matter how sorry he was or how much he cried or seemed to need me.  I know this because I've done it, so I just need to develop a similar boundary for emotional abuse.  Will have a look at the thing you suggested about Healthy Relationships... .

xx  Jane

[DreamFlyer99]

I know exactly what you mean, Janey, about being able to tell other people how to deal. I'm not anything professional, but I can see things soo much more clearly in others!   

Life being a learning journey and all that, I guess this is just your chance to maybe examine more of how your own childhood with a BPD mother has affected your own choices. I think it's so much easier to be drawn in!

i'll look for more suggested reading materials and get back to you soonish!

[janey62]

Thanks DreamFlyer99,

Life is a learning journey, and I'm grabbing my chance and hopefully will actually learn... . with the help of my friends 

I love the internet!  and the people on it! 

[waverider]

I am a counsellor! Can you believe it?  I teach people this stuff, have done for some time, and yet could not see what I was sliding into.  My counsellor colleagues did an intervention with me last summer and I was very offended and just went on to hide the fact that I was back with him from them.  I even think that I agreed to move two counties away with him so that I could conduct my miserable little misadventure without interference from those who care!  I have now realised, thank goodness, that I've put myself in this position and enabled his abuse by putting up with it.

From this you can see how you were reluctant to take advise from those who are trying to help. You do not have a personality disorder with its inherent properties of extreme denial. Now apply your attempts to "fix" to a pwBPD and you will be able to see why mentioning BPD and seeking help is not going to go down well. Their self denial far outweighs your own by a long margin.

The major thrust of what we are trying to achieve is to rediscover the power of free choice to do what you think is appropriate. To not act reactively or be pressured into doing/saying things by someone who is an expert at applying such pressure. Once you can achieve this you are well on your way to a better place.

What is the appropriate reaction you may ask? The answer to that is the best you can think of at that time without feeling pressured. It may not always be the best or perfect response, because you have a lot to learn  (and relearn what you have had been led to doubt). First of all you need to create the space and establish the right to be able to think objectively.

The further you go down this path you go, things will start to align, this is not an overnight result but rather more of an evolution of a new you. Do not underestimate the damage you will have taken in your rational thought processes.

Keep on this path and you responses today are probably going to be better than they were last week, even better in a month. One year from now you will think back to now and wonder why you ever contemplated that todays thinking was even remotely healthy.

It takes time, so the best you can do at anytime is good enough. But first you have to work on giving yourself that breathing space so that YOU can start to recover.

[janey62]

Thank you waverider... .

Your words mean a lot and make sense to me and I will try to do what you suggest and take the space I need to think clearly again. 

It's been double tricky because I'm in a position where I'm financially dependent on him, in a strange town and potentially homeless, but that is soon to change. 

In a way I've learned a lot by having to stay with this situation though and work out what to do and how to manage it.  I think I might have fled by now if I could have.  Finding bpdfamily has been a godsend too.   

[DreamFlyer99]

Janey,

clearly i totally blew that "get back to you soonish" thing! 

i was thinking about your feeling that your mother was probably BPD, and I'm sure you know a lot of this already but there's some good reading here about how a BPD mother affects her children, and i know it certainly affected much of how i learned poor ways of dealing with relationships.

How a Mother with Borderline Personality Disorder Affects Her Children

And this article is becoming one of my favorites, since it helped me understand how far off track I'd gotten with my own behaviors with my uBPDh: The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

I'm glad you've been fully engaging in the bpdfamily site, taking part in conversations and all. Doing that has sure made me feel less crazy and alone.

Waverider said,

The further you go down this path you go, things will start to align, this is not an overnight result but rather more of an evolution of a new you. Do not underestimate the damage you will have taken in your rational thought processes.

This is certainly what I've been seeing in myself--both in terms of the "evolution" of ourselves and in the damage to my rational thought processes. Those faulty thoughts were also an evolution (devolution?) as i got more and more enabling of my uBPDh, and it takes time to replace them with Truth and right thinking.

I'm glad you're here.

[janey62]

Hi DreamFlyer99,

Thanks for that info and no worries about not getting back to me. Ive been otherwise busy for a few days anyway.   I read the article about mothers with BPD and was struck by this statement:

The stress associated with borderline symptomatology (e.g., erratic or volatile behavior) causes children to simultaneously cling to and push away from their caregiver. In other words, in times of danger or stress, the child searches for the mother as a “secure base” to cling to, but in the case of a mother with BPD, it is often the mother herself who is posing the threat.

I can certainly relate to this... . Also it said that: 

These children often make executive decisions and are overall more controlling in interactions with both peers and parents.

I was the eldest of five children and became their protector to a large extent, acting as a buffer between them and my mother.  I was quite bossy as a child and controlling and continued to be controlling into adulthood.  I've done a lot of work on that and think that I'm less so now; certainly not controlling to the extent that it makes me uncomfortable any more.  I think I began to have somewhat codependent relationships with some of my siblings.  My youngest brother rejected me when he was 3 or 4, I think because he felt smothered by me, and perhaps controlled?  So much to think about though and I've already got a head full of how to cope with now! 

One of the things though that my uBPDbf accuses me of is being controlling and this worries me.  I don't know if he's is right about this or whether he knows that it's a sore point for me... . Either way I have developed a way of rationalising what he says and weighing it up, though it's not easy.  I find it hard not to buy into his accusations - they are a lot like those my mother aimed at me/us.

Jane 

[amaris]

It is not you.   Just hold on and keep validating when he tries to pull you into him pain.  The minute that happens you are sunk.  Detach from his drama and and continue to be steadfast in just saying these phrases, "I can see your point"... . "I can see your hurting"  "It must really hurt"   etc etc... . and then just don't respond to the increased need to make it about you and your fault... . he can't argue and rage with a rock.  I am with you!

[DreamFlyer99]

Janey, likely what Amaris says is true--when he says that it's not necessarily even about you. My uBPDh has said many things about me that were exactly what I was thinking about him, and that's the common trait of Projecting, since it's something that at some depth they know they're doing.

And "controlling" can mean many things to different people, so consider the person who is saying it to you and what they are like. Controlling to him may even mean that you are trying to place some boundaries, yunno?

I love the word "erratic" in that article about mothers! That sums up my whole life with my uBPD mother. I never knew who she would think I was when I saw her. I could be the lovely sweet daughter or I could be the horrible uncaring daughter, depending on her mood. Erratic.

I had an older sister who took it on to protect me, and I didn't even realize it until we were adults. She was much more abused as a child than I was. Honestly, I appreciate it now knowing she was looking out for me! And as adults we were able to become equals once she understood that I was a grownup too. I really miss her, she died almost 2 years ago at age 62, and I believe her horrendous childhood and the crap it did to her psyche played into that. I guess I'm just saying, your "controlling" as a child was really "protecting" and those are entirely different things.

I do know my uBPDh will also use things he knows are triggers to me against me when he's dyregulated. Hm.