S12 is upset about new guy

[livednlearned]

S12 was at his dad's tonight until 7pm, the time their visitation ends. New guy came over to my place for dinner, and left at 6:55pm. N/BPDx dropped S12 off a little early, so (gah!) he and new guy bumped into each other. When new guy realized that N/BPDx was in the street, he came back in the house. I have told him that being my SO will trigger N/BPDx, and that I want to protect him from N/BPDx for as long as possible. It was dark, so I don't know if N/BPDx would recognize him or not, but it's out of my hands now.

The real issue, tho, is that S12 came in (new guy still in the house) and then went upstairs without saying hi. New guy left. I went upstairs to check on S12 (heart pounding) and he said, "I'm really mad at you." I was still a little rattled from new guy and N/BPDx crossing paths, so I fumbled pretty bad.

"Why are you mad at me?"

"Because new guy was here and N/BPDx saw him. How do you think that makes me feel?" (tears welling up in his eyes)

"You are mad at me because you are worried N/BPDx will get angry and take his anger out on you? Or you are mad because you don't want N/BPDx to feel upset?"

"Both. You don't know how I feel."

"You're right, I don't. But I can see that you're mad. I understand that."

"But you do it anyway! You keep having him over here."

"N/BPDx came by earlier than usual. I have been respectful and aware, but wasn't expecting the schedule to change."

"N/BPDx was talking to me and then he saw new guy and just stopped talking."

"I'm sorry S12. I know it's hard. "

"Then why are you doing this to me!"

I am going to date new guy because I'm a grown up, and I am divorced. I'm not married to your dad anymore. Just like he wasn't married to half-brother's mom when he started dating me."

"Please just go. I want to be alone."

"You're in my room."

"I don't have anywhere to go."

"You have your room."

"I don't want to go there, I want to be here. I want you to leave."

Silence.

Racing thoughts!

I don't think I handled it well. The worst night of S12's life was when N/BPDx dysregulated big time and had a psychotic break, sent over 100+ messages in a 12 hour period, all night long. N/BPDx was on prescription drugs, drunk, and in a paranoid vortex, thinking that I was having an affair (we were divorced), threatening to not return S12. I think S12, on top of not wanting his mom to date for normal reasons, associates me having a boyfriend with N/BPDx becoming unglued. I think he knows that N/BPDx will probably start a hate campaign, which shreds S12 up inside, because he isn't strong enough (yet) to tell his dad to stop.

No idea how to maneuver through this. New guy is saying that he wants to get to know S12 better, and is willing to do whatever I suggest, but I know that S12 can't see new guy for anything except the source of a lot of trouble for him.

S12 is in therapy, and T said he doesn't mention it too much. I'm going to go back to T in January to get some help with this.

I'm both empathetic with S12, and also worried. He's been having a hard winter  :'( But I'm also so tired, and a little irritated. I didn't date for two years after leaving N/BPDx, then didn't introduce new guy and S12 until almost a year after we started dating. Maybe I've protected him too much? Given him too much say in something that he ultimately has no choice in?

Halp. 

[Nope]

Wow. I don't have a whole lot of advice on this. Just sympathy. I am lucky my two step kids are younger and they just sort of went with the flow. All I had to do was show them I cared about them and their father and I was in.

But, I do remember when my dad introduced me to his girlfriend (who would later become my stepmother) when I was twelve. I felt like even though my parents were divorced I already had as many parents as I needed and resented the addition of another adult in my life, regardless of the circumstances. I also felt a natural loyalty to my mother. But I was also just down right uncomfortable with my father showing affection to someone I didn't know.

Again, I have no advice. That whole thing was a disaster and I boycotted their wedding. My relationship with her never improved. They've been divorced for years now.

[livednlearned]

Wow. I don't have a whole lot of advice on this. Just sympathy. I am lucky my two step kids are younger and they just sort of went with the flow. All I had to do was show them I cared about them and their father and I was in.

But, I do remember when my dad introduced me to his girlfriend (who would later become my stepmother) when I was twelve. I felt like even though my parents were divorced I already had as many parents as I needed and resented the addition of another adult in my life, regardless of the circumstances. I also felt a natural loyalty to my mother. But I was also just down right uncomfortable with my father showing affection to someone I didn't know.

Again, I have no advice. That whole thing was a disaster and I boycotted their wedding. My relationship with her never improved. They've been divorced for years now.

Did your dad make you feel like your feelings mattered? Could he have done anything to make you feel less uncomfortable? I'm not sure if it's healthy or not, but if my relationship with new guy was going to strain things between me and S12, I don't have a problem back pedaling on my r/s. Meaning, I would rather continue to raise S12 alone then move in with new guy and lose S12. Already saw S12 disappear into the black hole and it took everything I had to pull him back out. 

I'm trying to figure out if S12's anger is self-protection about N/BPDx coming unglued. If so, then... .gah. I have no answers.

A few nights ago, S12 was talking about his friendships, and said, "I just take whatever I can get." Not entirely true, but it's a sign his self esteem is low. I made a comment about how he has come a long way, because 4th grade was when he really struggled. S12 couldn't remember anything and asked me what I meant. I gave him examples of how he coped with stuff then, and how he copes with things now. And told him he has been through one of the hardest things a kid can go through. Other kids who haven't been through tough times don't know how hard it can be, so they don't know how resilient and strong S12 truly is. He seemed to think that was good, but it also made me realize that he doesn't remember much of what it was like with N/BPDx. His dad is trying some mild PA tactics, but it doesn't go too far because he has such limited time with S12, and S12 kinda knows the score. Still, it surprises me that he doesn't remember 4 years ago.

This stuff is so complicated.

[whirlpoollife]

No advice but thoughts.  Maybe when S12 comes home to you its like coming home to his best friend, his hero, you. And vice versa, he is a hero coming home to you.  Now there is another best friend and hero, and yes he saw him there which S12 feels its a threat to that.   Or S12 thinks you are home alone and sad without him  but saw that you were not.   Not the fact that you have a man in your life other than his biological father.   

You handled things the best you , or anyone , could in a quick in your face unpleasant situation.  Don't beat yourself down.

[Nope]

Well, before you do anything I think it is important to remember that what kid S12 wants and what adult S12 will want for you are two different things. No adult child wants their parents to grow old alone. If New Guy is a good guy, that could be very guilt producing for S12 when he gets to an older less selfish phase of development. (The T that I go to is always quick to remind me that children are totally self absorbed by design.) It pays to have the foresight to remember that it won't always be this way. After all, at some point one would think his dad will probably start seeing someone.

But if he is worried about his father raging over this he needs to understand that there is nothing you can do about that and that you aren't going to live your life being afraid of making his dad angry and neither should he. (I know, I know. Easy to say.)

As for my dad. There was nothing he could have done because his girlfriend didn't really want to know me and considered my presence in the house EOW a minor annoyance to be tolerated for my dad's sake.

Rent the movie ":)utch". It's cute. And it makes the point that S12 and New Guy really will need to find their own way.

[livednlearned]

You handled things the best you , or anyone , could in a quick in your face unpleasant situation.  Don't beat yourself down.

Thanks. I need to remember that. Wow, do I feel awkward tho.

[livednlearned]

Well, before you do anything I think it is important to remember that what kid S12 wants and what adult S12 will want for you are two different things. No adult child wants their parents to grow old alone. If New Guy is a good guy, that could be very guilt producing for S12 when he gets to an older less selfish phase of development. (The T that I go to is always quick to remind me that children are totally self absorbed by design.) It pays to have the foresight to remember that it won't always be this way. After all, at some point one would think his dad will probably start seeing someone.

But if he is worried about his father raging over this he needs to understand that there is nothing you can do about that and that you aren't going to live your life being afraid of making his dad angry and neither should he. (I know, I know. Easy to say.)

As for my dad. There was nothing he could have done because his girlfriend didn't really want to know me and considered my presence in the house EOW a minor annoyance to be tolerated for my dad's sake.

Rent the movie ":)utch". It's cute. And it makes the point that S12 and New Guy really will need to find their own way.

Yes, he is definitely looking out for himself right now, and that's ok. We did talk a little bit last night before he went to bed, using the ol' ice cream as decoy trick. I told him, "Be patient with me as I figure this out. It's weird for me too, and I may make mistakes tho I try to think about how things are for you. Usually new guy leaves before N/BPDx drops you off. We didn't expect you early."

S12 said, "Maybe you could ask him to leave 30 minutes before we get here so it won't happen again."

My little problem-solver.

I also said, "It might make N/BPDx feel bad, but you aren't responsible for his feelings. He is a grown-up, just like I am a grown-up, and we need to let you be a kid. If he feels bad, he can talk to other adults about how he feels."

Then, "I felt really awkward when new guy said N/BPDx was here because I knew it was uncomfortable, especially for a kid. It's an uncomfortable thing for anyone, but sometimes we have to go through those uncomfortable times so we can get past it."

Then S12 said, "Imagine if YOU had two husbands." I think he equates anyone intimate with a husband, so ok, I ran with it. "I've had two husbands. Your dad has had three."

This is how you stun your S12.

But it kinda worked. I think S12 might need to know that his dad has been to the rodeo before, this isn't his first time. Also suggested that it's possible his dad is dating, but isn't talking to S12 about it. You never know, right?

New guy's parents divorced and his dad apparently couldn't quit slamming his mom. Finally he told his dad, "I like hanging out with you, but not when you talk about other people in the family. I'll come visit you if you can stop talking about them."

And he did. I think when S12 feels strong enough to do that, this stuff won't bug him so much. At least I hope. 

[newlymarried]

S12 seems very resilient. You should be proud that you were both able to talk about this. I think pats on the back all around would be well deserved.

[livednlearned]

S12 seems very resilient. You should be proud that you were both able to talk about this. I think pats on the back all around would be well deserved.

I sure hope so.

I was poking around bpdfamily and found this article about resilience in kids and it really struck me.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=93196.0

Protective Factors

Increasing a child's protective factors helps develop his or her resiliency. Resilient children understand that they are not responsible for their parent's difficulties, and are able to move forward in the face of life's challenges.

Protective factors for children include:

A sense of being loved by their parent

Positive self-esteem

Good coping skills

Positive peer relationships

Interest in and success at school

Healthy engagement with adults outside the home

An ability to articulate their feelings

Parents who are functioning well at home, at work, and in their social relationships

Parental employment

A parent's warm and supportive relationship with his or her children

Help and support from immediate and extended family members

S12 has most of this, at least with me. But there are other articles that make me realize he is vulnerable. I think he has the "sensitive" genotype that makes someone predisposed to BPD. And while he has had a secure attachment with me, he did have some pretty traumatizing experiences with his dad early in life. Starting around age 6, he was targeted heavily. That lasted until he was about 8, which is when I left.

I see the most relief in S12 when I tell him that his job is to be the kid, and the grown-ups are responsible for being grown-ups, and should talk to grown-ups about grown-up problems if they need help.

[Turkish]

S12 was at his dad's tonight until 7pm, the time their visitation ends. New guy came over to my place for dinner, and left at 6:55pm. N/BPDx dropped S12 off a little early, so (gah!) he and new guy bumped into each other. When new guy realized that N/BPDx was in the street, he came back in the house. I have told him that being my SO will trigger N/BPDx, and that I want to protect him from N/BPDx for as long as possible. It was dark, so I don't know if N/BPDx would recognize him or not, but it's out of my hands now.

The real issue, tho, is that S12 came in (new guy still in the house) and then went upstairs without saying hi. New guy left. I went upstairs to check on S12 (heart pounding) and he said, "I'm really mad at you." I was still a little rattled from new guy and N/BPDx crossing paths, so I fumbled pretty bad.

"Why are you mad at me?"

"Because new guy was here and N/BPDx saw him. How do you think that makes me feel?" (tears welling up in his eyes)

"You are mad at me because you are worried N/BPDx will get angry and take his anger out on you? Or you are mad because you don't want N/BPDx to feel upset?"

"Both. You don't know how I feel."

"You're right, I don't. But I can see that you're mad. I understand that."

"But you do it anyway! You keep having him over here."

"N/BPDx came by earlier than usual. I have been respectful and aware, but wasn't expecting the schedule to change."

"N/BPDx was talking to me and then he saw new guy and just stopped talking."

"I'm sorry S12. I know it's hard. "

"Then why are you doing this to me!"

I am going to date new guy because I'm a grown up, and I am divorced. I'm not married to your dad anymore. Just like he wasn't married to half-brother's mom when he started dating me." "Please just go. I want to be alone."

"You're in my room."

"I don't have anywhere to go."

"You have your room."

"I don't want to go there, I want [you] to be here. I want you to leave."

Hi LL, I am sorry you are dealing with this... .(I will deal with the first teen in less than a decade myself).

First, I think it is interesting that he stayed and kicked you out of your own room. Like he wanted to be comforted by you, or rather the you he views you with in his mind. He couldn't face processing a talk on a more logical, adult level. Still heartening to see that he didn't run out the back door. What I underlined was him stating his conflicting emotions, most likely. What I added in brackets may have been what he was really saying.

Second, what I bolded above, while correct, may have been a little too much "T" for him to hear at the moment. You were understandably frustrated and hurt by his reaction, but instead of stating your truth and your feelings, could you have asked him a question instead, like, "what do you feel I am doing to you?"

[livednlearned]

First, I think it is interesting that he stayed and kicked you out of your own room. Like he wanted to be comforted by you, or rather the you he views you with in his mind. He couldn't face processing a talk on a more logical, adult level. Still heartening to see that he didn't run out the back door. What I underlined was him stating his conflicting emotions, most likely. What I added in brackets may have been what he was really saying.

Second, what I bolded above, while correct, may have been a little too much "T" for him to hear at the moment. You were understandably frustrated and hurt by his reaction, but instead of stating your truth and your feelings, could you have asked him a question instead, like, "what do you feel I am doing to you?"

Turkish, you are spot on. I think I do that a lot -- rush him to the truth. I race through the support and empathy (S.E. of S.E.T) and then kinda pounce on the T.

Interesting too, the part about him kicking me out of my room. He hangs out in my room a lot because it has a TV in it, and he forgets sometimes that it's mine. I think I was being a bit of an @ssh0le to him by stating that it was my room. It felt like a power trip a bit, not a big one. But, support, empathy, truth, then this is my room? Not very empathetic. I know I'm doing this a lot better than, say, 3 years ago. But I still have a long ways to go.

We had a mellower conversation today. We're still not there, but I'm glad he expressed his anger to me, and that we could at least talk through it without any slamming doors or raised voices. Today I told him that new guy was coming over for dinner. Meanwhile, S12's dad is picking him up to take him to a show, but didn't say when he was going to pick him up. I told S12 that new guy was coming over, and said "I think everyone is going to get through this, and all these feelings, but for now, I want to work to minimize any surprises. New guy will be here -- he can park down the street. If I find out from your dad when he's coming to get you, I'll tell new guy to be respectful and wait 20 minutes."

S12 said, "30 minutes."

[Matt]

"Why are you mad at me?"

"Because new guy was here and N/BPDx saw him. How do you think that makes me feel?" (tears welling up in his eyes)

"You are mad at me because you are worried N/BPDx will get angry and take his anger out on you? Or you are mad because you don't want N/BPDx to feel upset?"

"Both. You don't know how I feel."

"You're right, I don't. But I can see that you're mad. I understand that."

"But you do it anyway! You keep having him over here."

"N/BPDx came by earlier than usual. I have been respectful and aware, but wasn't expecting the schedule to change."

"N/BPDx was talking to me and then he saw new guy and just stopped talking."

"I'm sorry S12. I know it's hard. "

"Then why are you doing this to me!"

I am going to date new guy because I'm a grown up, and I am divorced. I'm not married to your dad anymore. Just like he wasn't married to half-brother's mom when he started dating me."

"Please just go. I want to be alone."

"You're in my room."

"I don't have anywhere to go."

"You have your room."

"I don't want to go there, I want to be here. I want you to leave."

Silence.

Racing thoughts!

I don't think I handled it well. The worst night of S12's life was when N/BPDx dysregulated big time and had a psychotic break, sent over 100+ messages in a 12 hour period, all night long. N/BPDx was on prescription drugs, drunk, and in a paranoid vortex, thinking that I was having an affair (we were divorced), threatening to not return S12. I think S12, on top of not wanting his mom to date for normal reasons, associates me having a boyfriend with N/BPDx becoming unglued. I think he knows that N/BPDx will probably start a hate campaign, which shreds S12 up inside, because he isn't strong enough (yet) to tell his dad to stop.

No idea how to maneuver through this. New guy is saying that he wants to get to know S12 better, and is willing to do whatever I suggest, but I know that S12 can't see new guy for anything except the source of a lot of trouble for him.

S12 is in therapy, and T said he doesn't mention it too much. I'm going to go back to T in January to get some help with this.

I'm both empathetic with S12, and also worried. He's been having a hard winter  :'( But I'm also so tired, and a little irritated. I didn't date for two years after leaving N/BPDx, then didn't introduce new guy and S12 until almost a year after we started dating. Maybe I've protected him too much? Given him too much say in something that he ultimately has no choice in?

Halp. 

My reaction to this conversation is that I think it's good you're being sensitive to S12's feelings, and I also think you're tip-toeing around some basic truths.  Sooner or later you'll need to have a little different kind of conversation with S12... .

You are an adult and you get to decide a lot of things, including who you go out with, who you invite to your home, and how S12 will deal with your guests (within reason).  You can't make him like New Guy, but you can let him know that having a new guy in your life is completely normal and healthy, and probably good for S12 too.

"I understand this is awkward for you and I'll try to be sensitive to that, but I will have New Guy over when I choose, and I expect you to be courteous to him.  If you act right and are open to him I think you will like him, but you have to pretend you do - it's part of growing up - you treat everybody right all the time.  Then when he's not around you and I can talk about how it's going for you and I'll always listen and try to help."

But... . "try to help" can't mean "do what you want me to do".  It needs to mean "help you deal with the choices others make".

I guess this is what I'm trying to point out - it's not your job to comply with S12's wishes.  It's your job to help him learn to deal with choices you and others make that he doesn't like.

I'm making a point of this, because it was a big issue for us, and I suspect you're in a similar dynamic.  From birth to 8 and 10, the kids were exposed to their parents as a couple, and what they saw was Mom giving Dad orders, as a normal thing.  When you want Dad to do something, you tell him to do it, and if he doesn't do it, you throw a fit - that's how you deal with Dad.

When we separated, both kids did that for a while, and I had to un-teach them that behavior, and teach them how to ask nicely, and how to accept it when somebody doesn't do what you want them to do.  It's still a challenge - I'm still dealing with it 7 years later, but much less.

My guess is, you have some parallel stuff.  S12 saw how his father dealt with you, and you were in the habit of responding to his father's ways of communicating, and now you and S12 are to some extent in that same dynamic.  S12 sees his father's ways of talking to you as normal, and expects you to respond the way you responded when his dad tried to control you.  It's probably going to be an ongoing challenge, to un-teach that dynamic - especially hard when you're maybe also having to un-learn it yourself - and consciously, continuously teach better ways of dealing with people.  What is learned at a young age can be hard to fix... .

[livednlearned]

I think I get what you're saying... . I'm doing both things, it seems. Maybe that's making things harder for both of us.

I've made it clear that I hear his feelings -- he doesn't like me dating, he's angry -- and also that it's good that I'm dating, and he kinda needs to roll with it, although I am being sensitive, not putting him in awkward positions without regard to his feelings, etc.

You're right about the dynamic with his dad. He's really channeling it right now. His dad went out of his way to say that he has a friend, but she isn't going to live with him because it's always going to be S12 and N/BPDx, all the way. Something like that, making it seem like the better parent would never do what i'm doing to S12. So idealizing their relationship, trying to create a weird loyalty bind complete with unhealthy enmeshment.

All of this with a S12 who doesn't want to talk about anything at all. And is winding up for the teen years, when things get crazy even without divorce and a mentally ill parent.

[Matt]

Yeah, I don't want to imply that I got it all figured out, because in 7 years it's gone from being a small problem with D10 and a big problem with S8, to being a very small problem with D17 and an occasional problem with S15.  7 years, and I've focused on it that whole time, and the kids are great, but we're still dealing with it.

Just a couple weeks ago, S15 told me, "You have to pick me up early because we have finals tomorrow so we get out early today."  "Uh, no, I don't have to pick you up early, or at all - you can walk home.  But if you ask right I can probably do it."  "Will you please pick me up at 2:00?"  "Sure, if I can."  I joked about it with him - "You can try going through life giving people orders if you want, and let me know how that works out for you.  Or you can say 'please' and 'thank you' - your choice."  He got it - we had talked about it a hundred times over the years - and made a very good effort - I noticed him saying "please" consistently since then.

This was one of my ex's most striking behaviors, after she got pregnant and had me trapped:  She almost never made requests, usually demands, and followed up with punishments if I disobeyed - usually verbal abuse but sometimes other types of punishment.  It was very clear to me that these demands were orders not requests.  I was careful not to comply with her demands, and in couples counseling this was one of the top issues, so I know she understood that I was not accepting this behavior, but it made no difference - didn't matter how many counselors told her "Why don't you try 'please', and see how it works?" - she held tight to this dynamic, and it's what the kids learned when they were most impressionable.

I'm not surprised that a 12-year-old boy is struggling with these issues, but it is striking that he thinks he can tell you what you should do in this area.  If one of my kids laid that 30-minute rule on me, I think my answer would be, "No, I'm not going to do that.  Your father is an adult and he understands these issues so there is no reason he can't deal with seeing me with New Guy.  If you have a problem with it, let's talk about that."  My S15 still pushes back when I tell him "No", but in general he seems to benefit from strength and structure, as long as it's fair and sensible.  My guess is your S12 needs that too.

[livednlearned]

I'm not surprised that a 12-year-old boy is struggling with these issues, but it is striking that he thinks he can tell you what you should do in this area.  If one of my kids laid that 30-minute rule on me, I think my answer would be, "No, I'm not going to do that.  Your father is an adult and he understands these issues so there is no reason he can't deal with seeing me with New Guy.  If you have a problem with it, let's talk about that."  My S15 still pushes back when I tell him "No", but in general he seems to benefit from strength and structure, as long as it's fair and sensible.  My guess is your S12 needs that too.

S12 has more of my traits than his dad's. He isn't demanding, and not at all assertive, though he's getting better. That's what we've been working on these past three years. To get him to say what he wants, to express how he feels, to share what he's really thinking. His dad was strict to the point of cruel and irrational.

Having said that, I think everything is going to change now that the difficult teen years are starting. It's going to to be much more about manners and respect. He already has a lot of structure, but not as many responsibilities as he should have for a 12 year old. I can see how he might think that manipulating is the way to go, and he has a world-class teacher in his dad to show him the ropes. And S12 is mad at me, probably for the first time, at least in a big way, all based on this dating thing. I can see how he might think ally with his dad as a way to deal with his hurt, since I've made it clear that I'm going to keep dating, and new guy is going to keep coming over.

I've asked S12's counselor about whether it's advisable to tell S12 that his dad is N/BPD. She said she needed to think about. More and more, I think it's the right thing to do. Presented in the right way (which is what I need the T's help with) I think it will help S12 make sense of a lot of confusing behavior. Like stuff that's been hard for me to make sense of, much less a kid.

I do get your point, and your advice is really good. It's given me a lot to think about, especially about manipulation, and whether S12 is doing that more than I'm aware of. In terms of thinking he can just tell me what to do, that's not an issue, at least not yet. He's a pretty polite kid. Definitely slips up like a lot of kids do, but he knows what's expected of him and also knows I stood up to someone far more intimidating than him. It's kind of an unspoken thing between us -- that's why I make sure he knows that anything that happens in court is my decision, and not the judge's. I asked for the outcome that the judge gave me, therefore the judge is just following my directive. It feels weird just to write it that way, but thinking in those terms has helped me make sure that my son understands that I made this new life happen, it's my strength, my determination. I don't want a kid who treats me, or other women, the way his dad does.

Maybe it's a slightly different dynamic, the one with your kids, and the one with mine, because of the roles our spouses played in terms of gender.  

[Matt]

I'm not surprised that a 12-year-old boy is struggling with these issues, but it is striking that he thinks he can tell you what you should do in this area.  If one of my kids laid that 30-minute rule on me, I think my answer would be, "No, I'm not going to do that.  Your father is an adult and he understands these issues so there is no reason he can't deal with seeing me with New Guy.  If you have a problem with it, let's talk about that."  My S15 still pushes back when I tell him "No", but in general he seems to benefit from strength and structure, as long as it's fair and sensible.  My guess is your S12 needs that too.

S12 has more of my traits than his dad's. He isn't demanding, and not at all assertive, though he's getting better.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but look at the stuff in blue:

"Why are you mad at me?"

"Because new guy was here and N/BPDx saw him. How do you think that makes me feel?" (tears welling up in his eyes)

"You are mad at me because you are worried N/BPDx will get angry and take his anger out on you? Or you are mad because you don't want N/BPDx to feel upset?"

"Both. You don't know how I feel."

"You're right, I don't. But I can see that you're mad. I understand that."

"But you do it anyway! You keep having him over here."

"N/BPDx came by earlier than usual. I have been respectful and aware, but wasn't expecting the schedule to change."

"N/BPDx was talking to me and then he saw new guy and just stopped talking."

"I'm sorry S12. I know it's hard. "

"Then why are you doing this to me!"

I am going to date new guy because I'm a grown up, and I am divorced. I'm not married to your dad anymore. Just like he wasn't married to half-brother's mom when he started dating me."

"Please just go. I want to be alone."

"You're in my room."

"I don't have anywhere to go."

"You have your room."

"I don't want to go there, I want to be here. I want you to leave."

It's good that he is - in this example - telling you how he feels about the situation, and what he would like you to do.  But he is expecting you to do what he wants, not because it makes any sense, but just because it's what he wants.  "Why are you doing this to me?" sounds honest - great  - but not mature or sensible - a good starting point for a conversation but not a sensible outcome.

Maybe he's not phrasing these expectations as demands, but he sure is telling you what to do, and letting you know that it's not OK for you to not do it.  Not the best way for him to deal with you.

To be fair, of course, he's 12.  I'm not suggesting he's any less mature or more selfish than any other 12-year-old.  Only that he is not dealing with you appropriately, and I think he needs some strong guidance as to how to ask for what he wants, and how to accept when he doesn't get it;  and moreover, how to focus on his own choices and allow others to make theirs.

I hadn't thought about how things are different because of the roles our spouses played - yours vs. mine - and the gender difference.  Not sure I understand it but I'm sure you're right in some way about that - no two situations or people are the same.  My guess is, these are probably some issues that are common among those of us who have boys these ages - the child isn't happy about the situation, and doesn't know how to communicate that, and ask for help, so he acts out a little, and follows patterns he's seen among the adults in his life, til he learns better ways to deal with his stress and work out issues.

I guess I'd sum it up by saying I think both our exes (and most others here) did some bullying, and we put up with it, or didn't deal with it skilfully, and a pre-teen or teenage boy might be a little tempted to try bullying to get what he wants too - or manipulation.  So we have to teach them to ask for what they want, and to be willing to cooperate and work out ways to get his needs met, and sometimes accept what he can't change.

Telling him about BPD:  I've done that with all my kids, attempting to shine light on the situation.  Philosophically I think it's best for everyone to understand stuff, and not to keep things hidden.  I can't say that it's been a very good or bad thing.  All of them, in different ways, pretty much didn't react, and didn't seem to want to hear it.  Few questions, little discussion, just quiet acceptance.  I still think it's probably best to tell them, at some point, but I can't say it's solved any problems, and of course the prevailing view among courts, lawyers and counselors tends to be not to tell them, so you gotta keep that in mind, if there's any remaining risk of court.

(I think our court order more-or-less says I'm not supposed to tell them.  But it says a lot of other stuff, like their mom should be in "psychotherapy".  So I'm not worried about how this would play out if we went back to court.  And my youngest is 15 1/2... . )

[livednlearned]

It does look bad when I see the blue... . hm.

I do notice that S12 feels relieved when I tell him that I am the grown up, he is the kid, I make the decisions. This incident in particular had me reeling, and I don't feel like I brought my A game.

Thanks Matt. It really helps to have other adults, especially those who understand coparenting with a pwBPD, look closely at this stuff, knowing that there are dynamics that can be hard for me to see, especially when I feel guilty or emotional. Which I do -- I feel guilty about bringing someone into S12's life. I think S12 can sense that, and maybe that's why he spoke so strongly about what he wants me to do. He knows I'm soft on this.

We both also know that it my dating will dysregulate N/BPDx. And it did. This latest interaction with new guy and N/BPDx fired up some old stuff, the dread, the hand wringing, worrying about what N/BPDx will do. I'm really glad you dug into this with me and persisted -- it seems clear now. I'm in my old role, and S12 just tried on his dad's role (in a tween kind of way) to manage conflict.

Dysregulation is definitely underway. I just got this from N/BPDx tonight:

"Even though the only evidence of abuse of the minor child has been that entered against the appellee, LnL, Ms. LnL's lovers have more access, time, and influence over the minor child than the minor child's father, appellant N/BPDx"

That's all it said. He's sending a snippet of whatever it is he's alleging that is in the Supreme Court pleading to reverse the custody order.

I'm not worried about how it will play out -- my L said even if it held water, he missed the deadline to file an appeal -- but it does tell me he is dysregulating.

[Turkish]

It could be him mirroring his dads dissaproval to bond with him, too.

[livednlearned]

It could be him mirroring his dads dissaproval to bond with him, too.

Yes, hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. I can tell that S12 is feeling confused. He's still his same self with me, but something a bit dark is going on. I just don't know how to address it directly when everything is so indirect and under the radar. It would be easier if S12 talked about it, but he doesn't. It's all tea leaves.

And Matt, I don't know if it will help to talk about the disorder to S12 directly or not, but I was thinking while reading what you wrote that I want it to be easy, and learning about the disorder did make things easier for me, because it helped explain behavior. Maybe it doesn't work that way with kids, though. Especially if they just want their parents to be normal.

I'm not going to do anything impulsively, and will talk to his counselor about it more. My T is out of network, and she costs a lot, so I haven't seen her much. But I think maybe I need to go in for a tune up to help with this.

[Matt]

I feel guilty about bringing someone into S12's life.

Why?

[Matt]

Learning about the disorder helped me too, a lot.  And it seems to me such a huge part of of these situations that keeping it secret just makes no sense.

But... . that's the reaction of an adult with at least some broad knowledge of psychology, and some life experience.  All four of my kids are smart, and their ages span 20 years, and their personalities are pretty diverse, but none of them were immediately or obviously helped by the information.  When our marriage counselor turned me on to BPD, I read "Eggshells" and other stuff, and came here - I wanted to know more.  None of my kids reacted that way.

Thinking about it, I do think it's been helpful to my older son, who was in his 20s, and in rehab, when I told him about it, because he talked about it with his counselors, and it formed a part of his whole process of self-discovery.  A very different situation from your son - much older and in a 24/7 therapeutic environment.  None of the other kids - even my stepdaughter who was 19ish at the time - were very receptive.  My guess is, most kids wouldn't be (until, for some reason, they are).

I'm not trying to discourage you from talking to him about it, only telling you how it worked for me.  Maybe the key is looking for signals from S12 that suggest he is receptive, eager to understand... .

[livednlearned]

I'm not trying to discourage you from talking to him about it, only telling you how it worked for me.  Maybe the key is looking for signals from S12 that suggest he is receptive, eager to understand... .

It's the opposite, really. More like how you describe your younger kids responding. S12 wants it to all go away. I think he's living in parallel worlds, trying to keep the factions separate. Doing his best to avoid anything that makes him feel bad, which is everything to do with his mom and dad's relationship.

It's this latest dust up over new guy that's making me want to talk about it with S12, to help him understand what the dysregulation is, why it's happening -- but maybe that's because I'm exhausted by the slow parenting approach. I just want to explain it so he knows where n/BPDx is coming from when he starts blowing smoke.

It doesn't sound like talking about it hurt your kids, though?

[Matt]

It doesn't sound like talking about it hurt your kids, though?

No, I don't think it did.

My oldest - who was in rehab - I think it's not his favorite subject, but he has come back to it from time to time, and it's given me the basis for some stuff, as it's happened through the years;  if his mom does something very BPDish, I can say, "That behavior is pretty common among people with BPD", and discuss it in that context.  So over the years, I think he's probably gained a fair understanding, without ever deciding to dig in and really understand it well.

(By the way, he's a big Chicago Bears fan, and one of their best players, Brandon Marshall, came out as a BPD sufferer a year or two back, and has set up a foundation to help others with BPD.  So that's given me another way into the subject - I send him articles about stuff Marshall has said on the subject.  Pretty much the only "celebrity" I know who talks about it openly, though I bet lots of others have it.)

SD25 was the only one who reacted somewhat negatively to the information, but so passively that I'm not sure it was a mistake.  For a while she seemed to be taking her mom's side, but not very overtly - some nasty remarks at my expense, but not really engaging me in a discussion, and mostly she's been more and more distant from us all, so I can't really tell what's going on with her.  Even in her case, I suspect it was the right thing to do, to tell her;  it's my truth, and not to talk openly about it would not be a healthy relationship between SD and me.  But it may take a long time to know for sure... .

The younger kids are probably more relevant to your S12.  15 and 17 now but I've talked with them each (separately) about BPD a few times over the last few years.  Now it's context for stuff that happens - probably comes up a couple times a year.  I think it's been good to be open about it, and to share what I know, and not keep it a secret.  I have to be very careful to check my motives when I talk about their mom, and most times I mention her, it's either positive or, more often, neutral - "Well your mom went to NAU and she liked it." or "Your mom probably won't work on Monday because she works for the government and they get that day off."

So I think maybe I've earned their respect as somebody who doesn't trash her unfairly.  When the subject comes up, it's because of something she has done, so there's a context for me to mention BPD, and what I've learned about dealing with their mom.

Long story short, I'm still of the opinion that telling the kids about BPD is probably the right thing to do, but it's hard to say when, and super-important to do it carefully.

One more thought - you mention that there may be some differences between your S12 and my kids, because of which parent has BPD.  There is that issue, which I think we discussed before, about a boy assuming that he will be like his dad.  I did see this big-time in my oldest - his biodad is (I'm told) a recovering alcoholic, and for years that was one of SS's hot buttons - any suggestion that he had a drinking problem got "I'm not like him!".  I haven't seen that in any of the kids with respect to their mom - none of them seem to fear that they will "inherit" BPD from her.

But your S12 might.  Maybe if you can teach him what we know about the roots - that it's associated with a strong feeling of abandonment at an early age - maybe you know what in his father's early life might have contributed to that - you can get him to see that he is not at risk.

I've talked with all my kids about their mom's early life - what I think I know of it - her mom died when she was a baby, and her father drank, and she and her sisters were sent to live with relatives of a different race, in a different state - pretty traumatic stuff all through her first 10 or 15 years.

If there's a similar tale about your son's father, it will give you the chance to explain that BPD isn't genetic, and also to express some sympathy for his father, so it's clear you are describing what you know, and not making an accusation.  Kind of tricky, since it may be S12's first exposure to the concept that trauma in early life can cause a life-long problem like BPD.

[GaGrl]

My DH's children are all adults now.  They knew nothing of PDs when they were children/teens (neither did my DH) -- they just knew something was "off" with their mother.

Now that they are adults, we've had the conversation with the bio son and daughter (one adopted daughter is only sporadically in our lives).  DH's son is high-functioning but has his own set of anxieties.  He is VERY much like his mother is many ways -- not necessarily the PD behaviors, just strong personality traits as well as a stronger identification with his mother's culture of origin.  However, no one is the family can point out the similarities -- if we say, "You are so much like your mother," he has an immediate denial fit.

My SD is more worrisome to us, in that she's had two relationships that she will admit were "marrying a male version of her mother."  I'm not sure how introspective she is in attempting to figure out why she works out her conflicts with her mother in her own relationships.  In any case, we've been very open is talking about BPD and NPD in clear terms as a mental disorder that her mother will probably never address, and how her father chose to deal with it, and how we choose to deal with it now that it is a more distant irritant.

Neither of DH's children have chosen therapy as a means of working through their life-long conflicts with their mother.  I wish they would.

Both of DH's children appreciate that we speak the truth and do not excuse or cover up the really dysfunctional behavior.  At their age, and our distance, that's really about all we can do.

[livednlearned]

But your S12 might.  Maybe if you can teach him what we know about the roots - that it's associated with a strong feeling of abandonment at an early age - maybe you know what in his father's early life might have contributed to that - you can get him to see that he is not at risk.

I really like this idea.

If there's a similar tale about your son's father, it will give you the chance to explain that BPD isn't genetic, and also to express some sympathy for his father, so it's clear you are describing what you know, and not making an accusation.  Kind of tricky, since it may be S12's first exposure to the concept that trauma in early life can cause a life-long problem like BPD.

N/BPDx did have early life trauma. His mother was hospitalized after he was born, they thought it was postpartum stuff, including depression and what sounds like psychosis, and then they diagnosed her as bipolar. She sounds BPD to me, a very nasty woman, and N/BPDx has been estranged from her for most of the past 15 years. N/BPDx was in an out of a hospital for surgeries as an infant, then back at home with a young mom who was really struggling to cope with a baby and toddler.

But honestly, I'm no longer sure if that's true. His mom sure seemed crazy, but I don't know the specific details of his early life.

Right now (still waiting to talk about this with the counselor), I'm thinking of talking to him about N/BPDx's thing with "drinking poison and expecting the other guy to die." I want to see if S12 understands what that means. It might be too complex... .

There's just no easy way to talk about this... . I understand what you mean about carefully checking my motives. I feel pretty good about that part, it's talking to S12 in a way that makes him feel safe.

[Forward2free]

Hi LnL, I've been on a self imposed break from boards to focus on new custody orders. It's going ok, but there are so many new challenges with increased contact and I've been back in the firing line, dealing with verbal contact after years of no contact is tough.

I was reading your thread and wondered if some of your questions might be answered on the Coping with an abusive parent... board? They cover a wide range of topics and walked in S12's shoes, and are reflecting as adults. It's powerful and confronting and I think, helpful.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=216288.0 As a child, when did you realize your parent with N/BPD was different?

There are many more, I'm sure, but this is a start.

Perhaps posing a question there would give you some more useful information for your decision?

[Free One]

You know, my first thought was that it is a problem with new guy, but after reading your word-for-word description, and realizing I went through almost the exact same experience after the last exchange (ex told S9 I would call police if they were late; son was very angry at me), it makes me think it's not so much the new guy as it is just a reaction to triggers and stress.

It sounds like you son was triggered by being in a situation with new guy and dad present. There are a number of very valid reasons for him to feel this way. Possibly his anger at you was simply that he feels like you were the one who created the situation. It may feel like a betrayal to him because he depends, right now, on you for keeping things calm and safe for him. He also probably doesn't feel safe being angry at dad.

I would guess your son may be experiencing symptoms of PTSD and is easily triggered. It's the same reaction I see from my son when I know he's triggered. It's frustrating as a parent because when my son is triggered, he doesn't respond to rational thoughts and logic. He's operating solely on an emotional level.  Have you spoken to T about PTSD? I've used a technique called EFT successfully with son to deal with triggers and emotions. There's videos on YouTube about it, and I particularly like the ones by Brad Yates.

[livednlearned]

You know, my first thought was that it is a problem with new guy, but after reading your word-for-word description, and realizing I went through almost the exact same experience after the last exchange (ex told S9 I would call police if they were late; son was very angry at me), it makes me think it's not so much the new guy as it is just a reaction to triggers and stress.

It sounds like you son was triggered by being in a situation with new guy and dad present. There are a number of very valid reasons for him to feel this way. Possibly his anger at you was simply that he feels like you were the one who created the situation. It may feel like a betrayal to him because he depends, right now, on you for keeping things calm and safe for him. He also probably doesn't feel safe being angry at dad.

I would guess your son may be experiencing symptoms of PTSD and is easily triggered. It's the same reaction I see from my son when I know he's triggered. It's frustrating as a parent because when my son is triggered, he doesn't respond to rational thoughts and logic. He's operating solely on an emotional level.  Have you spoken to T about PTSD? I've used a technique called EFT successfully with son to deal with triggers and emotions. There's videos on YouTube about it, and I particularly like the ones by Brad Yates.

I hadn't thought of that. It makes sense. I felt pretty triggered myself. And when I think about it, my instinct was to feel angry at new guy. Which is ridiculous. All he did was walk out the door. And he's been so considerate of this deal where he has to be out of my house promptly so my ex doesn't see him.

I did have a really good conversation with S12 last weekend. I read through Divorce Poison again, cover to cover, to get some help dealing with the latest texts and emails from N/BPDx. He is clearly reacting. And that's hard for S12.

So I tried a tactic recommended in the book. We were having a good time in the car, joking around (Warshak recommends waiting until the kids are in a good mood). I made a joke referencing S12's aversion to new guy. S12 responded well. That kinda turned into an amazing conversation where S12 said that N/BPDx doesn't want to admit he has a problem, so he feels like he has to come up with reasons why I left, and is always searching for a way to be the victim.

Pretty amazing insight from a tween. He didn't seem mad or sad about his dad. It was very matter of fact. It took my breath away, because I didn't know if he really got his dad. I think he does.

Then he went on to say that he doesn't think N/BPDx will ever get help, and S12 knows he can't fix him or change him, but if his dad ever wants help, he will support him.

Other stuff, too. I said his dad might feel sad thinking that S12 could like someone I date, and S12 said that's why he doesn't want to get attached to new guy. He told me, "Please don't tell me new guy is a nice guy because I don't want to feel like I'm supposed to like him."

So that's a bit more complex. And it's honest. I'm not going to push it because it's how he feels.

And this last go around makes me realize that I don't have a lot more drama in me, which helped me clarify that I only have S12 for five more years at home and don't want to upset his world. So no cohabitation, no re-marriage, no blended family. Just dating and companionship, and then me and S12 on our own. It's the right thing for us.

Anyway, I think you're right Free One. That S12 was feeling some kind of PTSD triggering, because our later conversation made me realize that S12 actually has this whole thing much more sorted out than I originally thought. He knows his dad is a poked bear no matter what, even when things are going ok.

I'm actually relieved that S12 understands his dad's psychology, even if it's ultimately terribly sad for everyone involved.

[Turkish]

 that's a great story,  I'm glad things are calmer.  maybe you can offer one thing,  validating him first,  is that you request that your son try and treat him with the same respect he would anyone other human being and make it clear that you aren't requesting that he like him,  just to not be impolite,  while you say that you understand his feeling and that you won't pressure anything in your side.  additionally,  that you will request your bf  to do the same,  nothing more.  add he matures,  your son may just come around naturally.  it must be a hard act to balance,  but it looks like you are doing ok.

[livednlearned]

that's a great story,  I'm glad things are calmer.  maybe you can offer one thing,  validating him first,  is that you request that your son try and treat him with the same respect he would anyone other human being and make it clear that you aren't requesting that he like him,  just to not be impolite,  while you say that you understand his feeling and that you won't pressure anything in your side.  additionally,  that you will request your bf  to do the same,  nothing more.  add he matures,  your son may just come around naturally.  it must be a hard act to balance,  but it looks like you are doing ok.

I did tell him a while back that I expected him to be respectful, and S12 has been, although he cuts it pretty close. He is polite, says hi, but barely has eye contact with new guy. And new guy has a teen-aged son who is very disrespectful toward him, so he's actually super accommodating. No pressure from that side, thankfully.

S12 has a therapy appointment next week, and I'm going to bring this up and shine some light on it. I want to talk to him about what my plans are -- to not live with new guy -- that my job right now is to raise S12 and get him to college. After that, who knows. I really had a hard time figuring out where my heart was at, but the last couple of weeks I realized I don't have the drama in me. My kid has been through enough, is reluctant to engage with someone new, and is finally stabilizing after a pretty rough start in life. He's with me for 5 more years, and some of those years are going to be the terrible teens. It just seems best for everyone. I know it might be different for other people, but not for me.

Feels great to get clear about that.