i've just gotta say it--have i signed up to be a nun sex-wise?

[DreamFlyer99]

Seriously, I've been saying "it's been at least 3 years" for a year now, so I guess I need to start saying "it's been at least FOUR years now!" as far as any interest from my uBPDh in sex.

I've said "this is not what I expected" about so many things in this 30 plus year marriage, but sex? really? did that have to go?

I'm 60, not dead.

With my uBPDh at least, any subject that borders on intimacy whether physical or emotional is taboo, and worthy of some vigorous shoving it back on me: "well if you didn't want an argument you should have thought about your phrasing!" or anything that changes the actual subject.

I'm no troll, so I know it's not that, and in fact it upsets him more if I think it might be because of something about me. Such a quandary--"don't take the focus away from me, but do take the blame!"

Just had to voice this---again.

Anybody have any brilliant words for me? (Please try to avoid phrases like "stay strong!" and "fight the good fight" though.  )

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Hydroman]

Dreamflyer

I wish I had words of encouragement for you.   Its been a long dry spell between my wife (BPD and bipolar) and myself (well over a year).   There was zero interest in sex on her part.   They recently changed meds on her and her libido is coming back.   Only problem is that she thinks she is gay.   No interest in me but fantasizes about being with lesbians. 

Staying strong is very difficult.  I won't tolerate infidelity from her so I can't either.  its very sad for both of us.  Un-met needs, unrealized joy, lack of intimacy.   For me, what hurts a lot is not being wanted by your partner.  My self esteem is at an all time low.  If things don't work out between us, I am damaged good from her BPD.   I think I have sexual issues now from being told its all my fault, in debt, 3 kids - no one in thier right mind would ever want me.

I'm a scientist, I'm constantly researching, reading-desperately seeking hope, hope that things will get better, a new treatment will be discovered, that others will not have to endure this, that my children will not get this disability.   There is a lot of exciting research going on.   

For today, the pain is still there.  I feel for you as your relationship with your BPD husband has been longer than mine with my BPD wife.  This must be very hard.   Hang on, never give up, and pray.

[elemental]

When I was married, my husband treated me this way. From the time I was 23, until I told him I was divorcing him at 32 years old. He was taking meds that tended to kill sex drive, but he blamed me for the problem. ( the main reason I gave up and wanted the divorce).

At 32 I decided that, in addition to other reasons, meant my life would end up lonely, unwanted and unfullfilled. So I said I was ready to divorce. I did divorce.

I don't have advice for you, except to offer some support. 

[joethemechanic]

He might have some ED problems that he doesn't want to face/deal with. If he doesn't try to be intimate he can kinda put them "on a back burner" in his mind.

Basically, if he doesn't try, he didn't fail, (at least in his mind)

I'm guessing he is 60ish also? That is the time in a man's life when this kinda crap happens.

[waverider]

I think pwBPD spend a lot of their time blocking certain realities and thoughts, and sometimes sex, along with other issues, just gets caught in this as collateral damage.

[Theo41]

DreamFlier, A couple of additionl thoughts:

1. In a high conflict marriage the conflict can mortally dampen the desire for intimacy . Who wants to be intimate with someone they are in ugly conflict with. At a younger age the sex drive overcomes this dynamic, but after 60 testosterone levels are lower and many men experience erectile dysfunction they won't deal with.

2. The Internet is loaded with vicarious sex. Studies have shown that men who indulge in this tend to find their partners less attractive than the idealized women they see or read about.

In my case I have repeatedly asked my wife to go to counseling. In a week moment she agreed to as long as I go too. Yes! A breakthrough. When we go I'm sure this will be on of the issues we tackle. Theo

[DreamFlyer99]

Thanks all for the support! I know there are no easy answers with these conflicts, just some days it gets to me, yunno?

Hydroman, you said:

Un-met needs, unrealized joy, lack of intimacy.   For me, what hurts a lot is not being wanted by your partner.  My self esteem is at an all time low.

"unrealized joy"--that's beautifully put! And I know the unmet needs things is difficult because I feel that for so long I really did try to meet his needs because I was trying to make him happy, and I didn't realize that wasn't totally my job, cuz he gets to see things his way (which can be quite negative.)

And it seems such a normal reaction to think "they don't want me" but it isn't even that, it's some whole other kinda self-involved party in their heads, even if unintentionally. I think that once I started seeing his behaviors overall as the result of his faulty BPD thinking, I was better able to tell myself "It's not actually about me, it's about him." My self-esteem took a bit of a dump too, but then I realized I was using his view of me as my scale for "am I worthy of being loved" and went the next step further and saw that I needed to base my view of myself on what I know to be true about me. It's still easy to feel sorry for myself sometimes though!

And I am a praying girl, I think that sometimes I just let my anger and frustration at my situation block me from even thinking of praying... .

Zencat, you said:

He was taking meds that tended to kill sex drive, but he blamed me for the problem. ( the main reason I gave up and wanted the divorce).

At 32 I decided that, in addition to other reasons, meant my life would end up lonely, unwanted and unfullfilled

Okay, you were very young when all that happened! I can understand the choice you made. And at 60 I have grown kids and lovely grandchildren, and they're so important to me. And somehow that makes it all more complicated, having this long relationship together with so much more to it than just him and me, yunno? Plus at 60 I think my options could be a bit more narrow, and life has no guarantees, etc... . (these are the things that swim in my head.)

Joethemechanic, you said:

He might have some ED problems that he doesn't want to face/deal with. If he doesn't try to be intimate he can kinda put them "on a back burner" in his mind.

Basically, if he doesn't try, he didn't fail, (at least in his mind)

I'm guessing he is 60ish also? That is the time in a man's life when this kinda crap happens.

That is possible for sure. And I guess it must play with his sense of self knowing that he's having trouble in that area. Yup, he's 60. He's said things like "I just need to lose weight and i'll be fine" and then keeps on eating his garbage and drinking extra calories. It does seem like he's hiding, huh. Plus he takes blood pressure meds, and won't do anything to try to improve these things to the point of not needing all the extra meds. he even tried some sort of guy med but he said it made his stomach bleed so he couldn't use them. *sigh* Things don't matter to him apparently as much as they do to me at this point, and in many ways I've seen his BPD traits more clearly as he's gotten older (and as I've stood up for myself.)

Waverider,

I think pwBPD spend a lot of their time blocking certain realities and thoughts, and sometimes sex, along with other issues, just gets caught in this as collateral damage.

Is the blocking just to keep up their fragile story of self, if that makes sense? Like, he can't be a failure, he has a huge fear of being a failure (in many parts of his life, even though he is brilliant at his job) so if we just don't look at the places where failure is more possible, it keeps his story (as he tells it to himself) intact? I hate being collateral damage.

Theo41, you said,

At a younger age the sex drive overcomes this dynamic, but after 60 testosterone levels are lower and many men experience erectile dysfunction they won't deal with.

I think this HAS to play into this. And I know there have been times I didn't care about being near him since he was being so dysregulated. It seems like he is trying to keep himself from being so attacking with me, so things have been a little better, calmer and more pleasant. I just feel like the live in housekeeper, although the news would show that even they get sex sometimes... .

Again, thank you everyone for your compassionate and aware words, they helped.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm afraid that accepting your H has interest in sex with you and may never is the least painful thing you can do right now.

However just because he doesn't want sex doesn't mean you can't have any.

Choosing to have sex with a third person has all sorts of issues, and I'm not recommending you open that can of worms. (At least while staying in your r/s)

You can have sex alone.

It helps to focus on what you can do, instead of what you wish was different.

[DreamFlyer99]

Grey Kitty,

I know you're right that acceptance of the fact is the least painful thing to do, and I know that has to factor into my overall thoughts about the next 20 years.

I'm not someone who would go outside my marriage for sex, and that "alone" thing must be much easier for guys... . but I have definitely given that serious thought! i know focusing on what i can change is the optimum, sometimes i just let it get me down, yunno?

And of course sometimes i just feel the need to bi*** about it.   

[Musicescape]

While my situation is different, I think that MANY couples who are stuggling with BPD have issues surrounding sex.

It isn't that I have a decreased urge for sex, I just have to be mentally in it. My wife equates sex with love. When there is no sex, that must mean I don't love her. We could get into an argument and she would immediately afterwards need to make love as a reassurance of being loved. My mind might still be in recovery mode from the argument and I am not able to respond with her romantically. That doesn't mean I don't want it, it just means at that particular moment we are not in the right place emotionally for me to "perform". That, to her, is  indefensible. She may say something like, "If you really loved me you would make love to me because I need it badly right now". She also is really good at bringing up little tidbits she's learned but is taking out of context. She could say something like, "I read that men can get sexually aroused simply by looking at a picture so don't tell me you can't get in the mood." She would say this in the waning moments of an argument where nothing had reached a resolution yet there was the expectation that we would have sex. At a point in time somewhere in the future I would be reminded of my refusal to have sex with her. She would say that I used sex as a tool to punish her. This would be proof to her that I don't really love her. Hearing her say that would incite what I suppose you could say is a passive/aggressive response. There is nothing sensual or sexy about being berated for "withholding sex". She would be saying these things to me in the hopes that it would shame me into having sex with her? I don't know. It definitely has the opposite effect. It leads to me further distancing myself. It's a terrible cycle and I'm not sure how to break it.

Her view of sex has an almost mechanical, on cue persona to it. At least as it applies to me. Sorry for your struggles. I really can understand, though.

[DreamFlyer99]

Musicescape,

I know I read somewhere that shame motivates guys to want sex so don't tell me--oh WAIT! I took the wrong side.

Yep, there is definitely mood involved, at least when a bit older. In those early years the desire is about all that's needed for either side... . I do get what you're saying, especially since it reminds me of when I was a young mom and I would have been putting kids to bed and mending clothes, and then expected to go from sewing to sex in 60 seconds. Not a smooth transition! So I get what you're saying, definitely.

[Grey Kitty]

I just found another perspective on it... . I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, though.

I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. The author is both a marriage counselor and a sex therapist, and the book is the result of his observation that the two fields work at cross purposes to each other... . and I would recommend reading it anyway--I very much like his explanation of "differentiation"

Anyhow, where this comes in is that he points out that when a marriage is long stalled out as a r/s, sex usually suffers as well. That and also that sex at its fullest is about connection, and that requires emotionally mature people. (So unless your H makes some progress on BPD issues, sex is likely to continue to suffer.)

[PaulaJeanne]

If you have a spouse with BPD, especially a 60 year old man, if you actually do attempt to have sex, it's going to turn into a big drama thing that is somehow going to be your fault.

[Stalwart]

I not only feel for you Dream but I can so easily identify with the situation. Like others there was a time when I was put off my wife because I so totally felt sex was used as a tool of absolution from any thing done, much like HYDRO. I've also been on the other side of the coin with infidelity and having to come back from those difficulties to accept my wife. Most times I still feel that sex is not a want but a 'necessity' she feels must be accomodated in a relationship. None of that leads to a perfect sexual relationship. The dry spells are certainly concerning though, four year? YIKES!

Just in way of clarifying things we aren't so different in age and I really can't say about your husbands ability to perform but definately this isn't an afflication with all men of that age.

If I were to offer a suggestion it would be to work your way slowly back into a situation that might encourage sexual contact. Small things you lose over the years of togetherness, (listen to me, usually this is a woman complaint, they amake for strange bedfellows eh?). Maybe just starting slowly with holding hands when walking together. Sitting a little closer on the couch when your watching television. Snuggling a little closer in bed without being overly suggestive and work your way slowly into more physical contact and seeing how that progresses perhaps become a little more aggresive with suggestive acts. Encouraging him whatever manly praise you can validate, particularly in front of other family members may also be cause for motivation. As you know going the derogatory route certainly isn't going to be productive, perhaps slowly buuilding up his ego may help.

I wish I had other suggestions, it's actually difficult to associate with being a man who has a healthy and somewhat normal mojo, well, it's just hard to associate with turning down the desires of a wive. Best of luck.

[DreamFlyer99]

Grey Kitty, you said:

Anyhow, where this comes in is that he points out that when a marriage is long stalled out as a r/s, sex usually suffers as well. That and also that sex at its fullest is about connection, and that requires emotionally mature people. (So unless your H makes some progress on BPD issues, sex is likely to continue to suffer.)

This rings very true. Connection at a really trusting level does not come easily for someone suffering from BPD, either emotionally or physically. i'll have to get that book, I'm curious now. And I love the comment about will it make me feel better or worse to hear these thoughts!   

PaulaJeanne, it sounds like you may have some background with this problem, eh?

Stalwart, not sure if I can say this here, but I think I may qualify for "secondary virginity" after this "dry spell."

I do like your thoughts on slowly being more affectionate. And the validating. Really, I have tried this though. I usually feel put off when there's not a response at all. i know that it has so much to do with not really accepting himself, and the hormones don't drive him like they used to... . Maybe i just need to be more consistent with that route.

I also think that the fact that I've been trying to work through my own issues and place some boundaries probably makes me a little scarier, and not quite the same person I've been for most of the marriage.