Moving out with kids?

[nevaeh]

I am going to be leaving uBPDh in the next few weeks.  We have 3 kids - D16, S13, and S9.

For many years I stressed about telling H I wanted a divorce because I didn't know how I could get him to leave our house.  I have always known that once I tell him I want a divorce that I need to NOT be living with him.  

However, the stars have aligned for me and I have a place to go.  My sister lives a few blocks from me and will be moving to another town at the end of January.  Her house is in a price range I can afford and so my plan right now is to tell my H that I am divorcing him and then I and the kids will move to her house and will "rent" from her while the divorce is being worked through.

Here are some other "relevant" facts:

- We have a large amount of equity on our current home, which is also one of the most expensive homes in our small town.  I don't know how long it will take to sell it, although I am hopeful that it should sell quickly due to location, size, being a new house, etc.  I don't think H will choose to stay in the home - it is a 5BR/5BA home - very large for one person and he would have to "buy me out" and I just don't think that he would think that makes financial "sense".  

- We have a decent savings account and as advised by lawyer, I will take 1/2 of that money out and open a new account in my name only so that I have cash at my disposal.

- My H makes about $110K per year and I make about $75K per year.  We have no debt except the mortgage on our $500K "ish" house and the amount of equity in the house is about $300K.  Our mortgage payment is actually very low - less than $1100 per month, but property taxes are $10K per year.  

So here are my concerns... .

- My sister can't put her house on the market right away when she moves anyway because there are a few things that need to be finished in the house - carpeting, some trimwork, etc.  Paying rent to her will help them out since they will also be renting a house for a while until they figure out where they are going to live permanently in their new location.  I can't officially buy her house until our house is sold, because I need my half of the equity from the sale to put down on the "new" house.  I am concerned about how long it will take to sell our house and don't want to hold my sister up from being able to buy a house.  She and I have talked and decided that, worst case, I will have to give up on the idea of buying her house if they need to move ahead and our house isn't selling.  

- I think the lawyer told me during my consultation that whoever stays in the marital home would continue paying the mortgage payment, taxes, etc.  I am counting on the fact that I won't have to pay half of the expenses on our current home if I and the kids are not living there.  Is that a correct assumption?  I am a little concerned that once I say that I am moving out, that my H will say that he will move out and then basically just walk away from the home, essentially "forcing" me to stay and get it sold.  That wouldn't be the end of the world but it would prevent me from being able to buy my sister's house and would throw a wrench in to my current plans.

- Do you think there are any issues whatsoever with me taking the kids with me to a new home?  I will NOT leave them behind but need to have peace of mind that I'm not creating future custody problems by removing them from the marital home.

Thanks all for any advice you might have.  I am going to schedule an appointment with a L to iron some of this out before I actually do anything but I have been operating under the premise that this will all work and am concerned that it isn't going to work as well as I thought it would.

[ForeverDad]

I will touch on some of the things here.  For example, your income is less than his so it's unlikely the court will make you pay more than him.  If he does walk away and you do end up staying in the home with the children, or returning to it, then even if he refused to pay toward the mortgage, taxes and utilities, the court would likely have him pay some child support in a temporary order.

Selling the home... . There are problems if he stays and also if he goes, probably fewer if he goes.  Why fewer if he goes?  If he's out of the home then he can't hinder the preparation and actual showing of the home, though he could delay signing the various paperwork.

• If he stays in the home he can stop paying the mortgage, taxes and utilities and make you worry about credit being trashed, etc.  He can drag his feet with all sorts of delays and inaction and non-responses.



• If he leaves then he can still try to avoid paying the home's expenses, fail to sign required listing, sale and quit claim documents.

In short, from here in remote peer support it's hard to predict how cooperative he will or will not be, but the legal process lends itself to no-fault continuances, delays, and a range of passive and not-so-passive obstructions.  What should be 6-9 months (my lawyer's original estimate) could become a year or even much longer (my divorce was nearly 2 years, my ex was very obstructive and non-responsive since the temp order was in her favor).

It's best if he moves out first, that leaves you possession and de facto control of preparing and listing the home for sale.  However, if you say you're staying and ask him to leave he may decide to be obstinate and refuse.  Your consultations with a few family law attorneys (so you can pick one you're comfortable with, has the best strategy and comprehension of potentially high conflict cases) will help you determine a strategy.

I don't know how obstructive or uncooperative he would be, perhaps ask him to leave and if he declines then you will simply move out and ask the court to order it sold if he doesn't want to pay you your share of the equity.  (He might say he wants to stay but once you leave he may decide to leave as well and then you'd be able to return or get it sold quicker.)   Don't argue when presenting his choices, probably best to have support nearby and easily available when discussing the details, just present the basic/simple options: (1) He moves out or (2) you and children move out and you'll file with family court for him to (a) pay you your share of the house equity or (b) the house is promptly prepared and listed for sale.  Child support is going to be requested no matter which option he chooses of course.

[maxen]

does he have some reason to believe that this might be coming?

I am going to be leaving uBPDh in the next few weeks.

[nevaeh]

does he have some reason to believe that this might be coming?

I am going to be leaving uBPDh in the next few weeks.

Not specifically, that I would be aware of.  Things have been lukewarm between the two of us for quite some time.  I avoid interactions with him and I know that he is aware of that on some level.  I saw a lawyer about 4 years ago and had been making copies of documents (soc cards, birth certs, etc) and he guessed what I was up to because he was somehow monitoring those files and knew that I was taking things out.  The fact that he knew that was a little creepy so I am very careful about what I do.  I have a consult with an attorney next Tuesday and my parents are going to pay consultation fees as well as the retainer, if necessary, so that I can get some of the legwork done ahead of time.  H monitors our bank accounts daily (if not more frequently) so I can't take any significant amount of money out of our accounts without raising red flags.

We had a fight at the end of October that ended in him asking me if I wanted a divorce and I replied "yes, and I'm not even kidding".  He gave me the silent treatment and moved to the guest room for 4 days then appeared back in our bedroom acting as though nothing had happened.  He never mentioned the fact that I told him I wanted a divorce (in fairness, neither did I).  He has to be in complete denial if he thinks that our marriage is in a good place.  However, he grew up in a household where the parents spoke infrequently and showed little affection for each other and were probably not happy in their every day lives.  He may be perfectly "content" to live like that and just thinks all of this between he and I is just "normal". 

I am getting very anxious.  I know this has to be done.

[livednlearned]

Hi nevaeh,

Even if it makes financial sense, even if it benefits him, even if it costs him money, he is going to create conflict for you. Long, drawn out conflict. So the key is less about what you do than how you do it. That means writing financial settlements and consent orders that have consequences for not complying with the order. A judge has leeway in ruling, but a judge is more likely to rule based on something the two parties consented to. That means making sure your consent order is very, very detailed.

So for example, if your ex stays in the house and is ordered to pay mortgage but doesn't, the consent order should say that the house will be put on the market. He will lose 10% of his share of the equity or the value of the mortgage, whichever amount is greater. If he does not pay the mortgage for one month, you get to pick the realtor, the house goes on the market, and your ex will be evicted within 30 days so the house is vacant during the showings. I don't know if legally you can ask for this, but it can't hurt -- ask that you are given sole decision making to effectively sell the house or refinance it if he does not comply with the items in the order.

Even if those items would not stand up in court per se, the fact that your ex agrees to consequences will give the judge something to work with. That's what took so long in my case -- there were no consequences written out. That's where my lawyer was too soft. By the time I figured it out, we were deep into hearings. In my divorce, N/BPDx and I mediated our consent order in February of 2011. He was ordered to refinance by August of 2011. August of 2012 came and went, and I filed a motion for contempt. He started the refi process and it fell through. Nothing happened. I filed a second motion for contempt and he showed up at the hearing saying the refinance would be done next week and I could sign  . It took 22 months for N/BPDx to take ownership of the house and it cost me thousands of dollars to give it to him.

So do what makes the most sense for you. Do what you think is best for you and the kids. Listen to your lawyer's advice about what would be financially more beneficial for you. And then get everything nailed down as tight as possible. Get your lawyer to draft the language, and don't let anyone rush you into signing it -- slowing the pace during the negotiation and nailing down the consequences may save you thousands of dollars during the protracted conflict. Help your judge rule your way (if it comes to that).

We don't know the specific psychology of your H -- sometimes, being more or less narcissistic makes a difference, and sometimes BPD sufferers will be so incensed by the loss of control that you have to think psychologically and strategically in ways that are counter-intuitive. At the end of the day, though, the healthiest thing you can do is to focus on what is safe for you and your kids, and then go from there.

The one thing I wish I knew then what I know now is how drawn out this would all be. I knew I would be paying legal fees for a while, but I never expected 3 years. Others here have been paying for far longer. Budget accordingly -- it is baffling how BPD sufferers will use the legal system to stay negatively engaged, even when it hurts them.

Good luck to you. Let us know how things go. And be safe -- withdraw funds from your account as soon as you leave. If he monitors money that closely, he will know right away and the door to your old life will slam shut.



LnL 

[nevaeh]

To address some of LnL's other comments:

Good luck to you. Let us know how things go. And be safe -- withdraw funds from your account as soon as you leave. If he monitors money that closely, he will know right away and the door to your old life will slam shut.

Exactly right!  This single fact alone has been one that has stopped me in my tracks literally every time I have contemplated separation.  My H is VERY guarded of our financial situation.  He has done an outstanding job of managing our finances which is one good thing I can say about him.  However, he is also very protective of "HIS" money.  I know for a fact that he feels that he alone is "responsible" for the money in savings and the fact that we have no debt.  As soon as I "take" my half of the savings, it will be like starting WW3.  He has "plans" for that money.  He wants to invest in a very large business venture that would require draining our savings as well as taking all of the equity out of our house.  So, when I take "his" money he will be very upset because I will be squashing his dreams as well as taking something that "really doesn't belong to me".  I have always known that the minute I take that money that there will be no going back.  I have to be 100% sure of my decision before I take that step. 

I honestly don't "think" my H would threaten to "trash" his or my credit rating.  I don't think he would purposefully sabotage the sale of the house to get back at me, because there would be financial consequences to him for that as well.

That being said, I can't rule either of those things out.  If I stay in the house I will be motivated to sell it (although it KILLS me to be leaving it as it is my dream house).  Being able to move to my sister's house, however, simplifies things for me down the road and avoids the issue of not knowing when the house will sell and when I will need to have a new place to move to.  There are good things about staying in our current house - lots of good things, mostly for my kids but also for practicality purposes of selling house, etc.  I think I will be more engaged in the process than he would be. 

But, you hit the nail on the head.  How H will react to all of this is the big unknown, and unknowns are not good for planning purposes.  He may surprise me and be cooperative or he may not surprise me and make this a living hell.  Time will tell.

[Waddams]

Would taking all the cash instead of half be an option for you if you just let him have the equity in the house later?  Does it balance out?  Could just quit claim it to him?  Or consider it an early version of him buying out your interest in the house with his portion of the liquid cash... . you're just expediting the process?  With no court orders and nothing filed, don't you have as much right to the money as he does?

I know it's sneaky and dirty pool tactics, but D with BPD is gonna go to that territory really quick anyway and being nice and fair only gets you taken advantage of and behind the 8-ball when dealing with these sorts of situations.  It could be years otherwise before you see a cent from the rest of your interests in non-liquid cash marital assets.

[livednlearned]

Would taking all the cash instead of half be an option for you if you just let him have the equity in the house later?  Does it balance out?  Could just quit claim it to him?  Or consider it an early version of him buying out your interest in the house with his portion of the liquid cash... . you're just expediting the process?  With no court orders and nothing filed, don't you have as much right to the money as he does?

You will need him to refinance before signing a quit claim deed so you aren't on the mortgage anymore. That's what took me 22 months to get done.

But about taking the cash -- in court, that will be treated like an advance against the settlement. It's common, especially in high-conflict divorces. It gives you some leverage and you won't be punished for it. I took out half, plus the money I had been squirreling away, and then backed a moving truck up to our house and moved half of my stuff while N/BPDx was at work. My L implied that I would be smart to do that, given how N/BPDx functioned. Honestly, I think the judges and Ls think you're being smart to take care of things on your own, tho they won't say it.

I know it's sneaky and dirty pool tactics, but D with BPD is gonna go to that territory really quick anyway and being nice and fair only gets you taken advantage of and behind the 8-ball when dealing with these sorts of situations.  It could be years otherwise before you see a cent from the rest of your interests in non-liquid cash marital assets.

Exactly. In my situation, I took half out, and then within an hour had made sure he couldn't wrack up debt on our joint credit cards, blocked his access to my phone, moved into an apartment without disclosing the location, and talked to the school about what was going on so they knew there was a high-conflict divorce. I was proactive and strategic, and it mitigated a lot of damage. Not all of it, but lots.

Get ahead of the conflict if you can.

[GaGrl]

Everything happens quickly on the day you have THE conversation... . you might want to lay out a checklist and schedule for the tasks.

[momtara]

By the way, you can post on avvo.com for free and ask a lawyer. 

[nevaeh]

Would taking all the cash instead of half be an option for you if you just let him have the equity in the house later?  Does it balance out?  Could just quit claim it to him?  Or consider it an early version of him buying out your interest in the house with his portion of the liquid cash... . you're just expediting the process?  With no court orders and nothing filed, don't you have as much right to the money as he does?

I know it's sneaky and dirty pool tactics, but D with BPD is gonna go to that territory really quick anyway and being nice and fair only gets you taken advantage of and behind the 8-ball when dealing with these sorts of situations.  It could be years otherwise before you see a cent from the rest of your interests in non-liquid cash marital assets.

$145K in savings and $300K (ish) equity in the house.  So, no, doesn't balance out... . I thought the same thing as you.  Just take all the cash and be done with it.

Also to be considered are retirement savings.  He has been putting the maximum amount of his salary allowable into a deferred compensation account, which means his retirement is technically inflated as compared to mine.  In a way we've been living mostly off of my salary alone.  He is also an officer in the military so his military retirement also will be considered.  I think this will be complicated.  I don't want to be tied to him later on in life and I will have to talk to the lawyer about whether it's better to have him give me cash now in order for him to preserve his retirement OR if it's better to somehow legally be able to earmark a part of his retirement earnings for me later.  I honestly don't know how that works.

So, while I'm not "worried" about finances and whether I can make it on my own after divorce, I am concerned that the working out the finances will be complicated.  I have also not been very involved in the finances so just knowing what all there is could be a bit challenging as well. 

[nevaeh]

Everything happens quickly on the day you have THE conversation... . you might want to lay out a checklist and schedule for the tasks.

No kidding.  I have started a list.  I'm sure there are things I won't think of. 

I called our bank and found out that I can withdraw half of the money but since his name is on my current account I would need to open a new account without his name and deposit the money in there.  Both of our names are on all three of our accounts and either of us could CLOSE any of those accounts without the "approval" of the other.  But, we can't take the other person's name off of the account without his/her approval.  So only option is to open a new account and transfer 1/2 into the new account.  This will have to be done right before or immediately after conversation with H.  This is priority #1. 

Then I am making a list of what credit cards we have and which ones I want to keep vs. not.  He is not reckless with his money so I have no reason to believe that he will go out and start charging a bunch of things on the credit card, unless he knows I will be the one having to pay them off. 

Don't know how to deal with the phone situation either.  I guess I wasn't thinking about the fact that I might need to get out from under his control in that area since he could technically cut off my cell phone.

If I end up being the one to move, I am thinking it best to hire someone to come and help pack up the things I plan on taking with me (which essentially would be the kids' bedrooms, our kitchen table, a few various other items).  I would like to get the move done in one day while he is at his weekend military job.  I plan on leaving him the master bedroom set as well as the guest bedroom set and all of the other furniture in the house.  So, it's not like I will be emptying the house when I leave.  Not sure what he would want to take if he were to be the one that leaves, but I'm open to whatever.  Furniture is the last of my concerns right now.

[ForeverDad]

Everything happens quickly on the day you have THE conversation... .  you might want to lay out a checklist and schedule for the tasks.

No kidding.  I have started a list.  I'm sure there are things I won't think of. 

I called our bank and found out that I can withdraw half of the money but since his name is on my current account I would need to open a new account without his name and deposit the money in there.  Both of our names are on all three of our accounts and either of us could CLOSE any of those accounts without the "approval" of the other.  But, we can't take the other person's name off of the account without his/her approval.  So only option is to open a new account and transfer 1/2 into the new account.  This will have to be done right before or immediately after conversation with H.  This is priority #1.

Then I am making a list of what credit cards we have and which ones I want to keep vs. not.

Since credit cards are debt instruments, try to close any "joint" accounts.  If he's the account holder and you're the card holder, no problem, just stop using it or cut it up.  If you're the account holder and he's the card holder, then call the company and cancel his card.

Don't know how to deal with the phone situation either.  I guess I wasn't thinking about the fact that I might need to get out from under his control in that area since he could technically cut off my cell phone.

Or worse, he could see who you call or even monitor your calls.  That brings up the issue of confidentiality and privacy.  He likely monitors the computers used in the home to some extent.  Could even have spyware on them, who knows for sure?  So post sensitive information and post here only from secure computers he doesn't have access to... .  your work, your trusted friends (not 'mutual' friends), your family, the library, etc.

We have here a thread about privacy & confidentiality:

FAQ: Frequently asked technical questions

Look in the Information group of links for Could I be found out?

If I end up being the one to move, I am thinking it best to hire someone to come and help pack up the things I plan on taking with me (which essentially would be the kids' bedrooms, our kitchen table, a few various other items).  I would like to get the move done in one day while he is at his weekend military job.  I plan on leaving him the master bedroom set as well as the guest bedroom set and all of the other furniture in the house.  So, it's not like I will be emptying the house when I leave.  Not sure what he would want to take if he were to be the one that leaves, but I'm open to whatever.  Furniture is the last of my concerns right now.

Be sure to take before/after photos or videos.  Have PROOF you did nothing extreme.  Go the extra mile to protect yourself.  Just in case.

Huge point here:  Beware of sabotaging yourself by being too nice, too polite, too thoughtful, too fair, too whatever.  Do you think he would do the same for you?  (Likely he doesn't know the concept of reciprocity when it comes to spousal matters, so don't assume it.)

Believe me, family court seldom is concerned about fairness, niceness, politeness, etc.  More or less this is how the courts view things: The spouse behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the spouse behaving better seldom gets credit.  However, as the more responsible parent, the court might expect more from you than from him, hard to say, and if you did 10 things right and one detail wrong, it could be the exactly wrong thing to flub up.   But most likely that won't happen and with an experienced lawyer and extensive peer support here, that's such a remote risk.

[GaGrl]

Take care of the money transfer BEFORE the conversation. He sounds financially savvy enough to race you to the bank.

Would it be possible to arrange to move on his duty weekend, have the financials done, then talk when he gets home with the move a done deal? You wouldn't have to stay for an extended post mortem... . just leave.

[nevaeh]

Take care of the money transfer BEFORE the conversation. He sounds financially savvy enough to race you to the bank.

Would it be possible to arrange to move on his duty weekend, have the financials done, then talk when he gets home with the move a done deal? You wouldn't have to stay for an extended post mortem... . just leave.

That's basically what I'm thinking.  I would go to the bank on Friday afternoon and move the money.  Go home and tell him I want a divorce and that I'm moving out on Saturday.  He would be at drill on Saturday and Sunday and hopefully I could be fully out on Saturday.

Still thinking that through.


ForeverDad... .

I don't use our home computer for anything.  I busted him having an affair with keylogger software installed on the laptop so I know better than to use that computer for anything.  However, I do need to make a backup of that computer as it contains a bunch of kids pictures, and other various files, including taxes.  I will do that on his next drill weekend which is on January 11-12.  

I don't know how he would monitor my phone.  Is there a way to do that?  I know he can probably see phone numbers I have called but can he read text messages if they have been deleted?  I don't call anyone from my cell phone that I don't want him to know about (esp lawyers, etc).  All of that is done from my work phone.  Emails are sent using my work account as well.  

Also, very good point of taking video before items are removed from the home to show that I didn't do anything unreasonable. 

[livednlearned]

Take care of the money transfer BEFORE the conversation. He sounds financially savvy enough to race you to the bank.

Would it be possible to arrange to move on his duty weekend, have the financials done, then talk when he gets home with the move a done deal? You wouldn't have to stay for an extended post mortem... .  just leave.

That's basically what I'm thinking.  I would go to the bank on Friday afternoon and move the money.  Go home and tell him I want a divorce and that I'm moving out on Saturday.  He would be at drill on Saturday and Sunday and hopefully I could be fully out on Saturday.

Still thinking that through.

Too risky. Wait until he is at work, then go to the bank Saturday morning (if they're open) to move funds. Have the moving truck come in as soon as he is gone. I wouldn't risk taking out the money and then telling him, and then moving your stuff. And if you are AT ALL worried what he will do to you, do not feel obligated to tell him about the divorce in person. It is not a matter of integrity when you are trying to protect yourself. It's a matter of safety. Divorce is a huge trigger for normal people, and it is hugely trigging for BPD sufferers. He is going to lose you AND his assets in a single swoop. There will be no hugging and terms of endearment when you walk out the door. 

[ForeverDad]

I would go to the bank on Friday afternoon and move the money.  Go home and tell him I want a divorce and that I'm moving out on Saturday.  He would be at drill on Saturday and Sunday and hopefully I could be fully out on Saturday.

Still thinking that through.

Too risky. Wait until he is at work, then go to the bank Saturday morning (if they're open) to move funds. Have the moving truck come in as soon as he is gone. I wouldn't risk taking out the money and then telling him, and then moving your stuff. And if you are AT ALL worried what he will do to you, do not feel obligated to tell him about the divorce in person. It is not a matter of integrity when you are trying to protect yourself. It's a matter of safety. Divorce is a huge trigger for normal people, and it is hugely triggering for BPD sufferers. He is going to lose you AND his assets in a single swoop. There will be no hugging and terms of endearment when you walk out the door.

What I said about being too fair and too informative would risk sabotaging yourself applies here.  While no one can say to what extreme he might react, the point is that it's not worth the risk.

If you were striving to keep the marriage open then being informative and open would make sense.  But not at this point, not when the marriage is failing and has risk to implode.  For example, as for being informative and fair, was he informative about that affair?  Clearly not.  Then why are you feeling you need to be far more open and informative than he ever reciprocated?  Of course, you don't want to go out of your way to trigger him to overreact - he will probably overreact no matter what - but you also need to do smart moves that, while being reasonable and practical, will also protect you and not weaken you or your goals.

He is going to lose you AND his assets in a single swoop.

His perception is all that will matter to him.  You will see it as "about half" the marital assets, he will see it as "all his" assets.  Even though you've been funding the everyday bills more than he has, he won't see it that way.  His perceptions would be biased in his favor.  You can do something logically reasonable which no objective person would criticize - taking about half - yet a person with BPD/NPD/xPD will see it as an attack, hugely personal and triggering.

I suspect that my stepgrandmother was uBPD.  They're both gone now, but I recall as a young adult I was doing religious volunteer work.  I had just enough money for my needs.  One day he gave me $5 on the sly, would have been in the 1980s, and told me not to tell his wife.  Later I shared incident with my mother and she said SGM had so much money that she had to pay taxes on the interest.  My mother's own words, SGM saw her money as Hers and his retirement money as Theirs.

If you could not reach a settlement and it went before a judge, most courts would rule that in addition to splitting the current assets you would also get an appropriate percentage of his retirement funds or a portion of his pension. Don't be guilted or pressured into gifting it away.

If you think it is at all possible he is hiding some of his money or if he refuses to divulge the accounts you think he has, then you'll need a forensic accountant, also called a Special Master.

[nevaeh]

Thanks for all of the good advice. 

I will be honest... . I am terrified.  This money thing is really scary to me because I really believe it is going to be a huge trigger for him.  But, you're all picking up on the fact that despite the fact that I am aware that the money could be a huge trigger, I still have this strong desire to "not hurt him" ... . I guess more for the purpose of trying to minimize his reaction as well as the fact that I really just don't want to hurt him (or anyone for that matter).

H has been "fine" lately.  He is withdrawn but I think part of that is because he is picking up on my emotional distance from him.  I have been trying to work through how this will play out but frankly I am just scared because of the unknown.  My counselor observed and told me that she feels that I have basically been surviving the past 18 years trying to "orchestrate" everything so that I have some sense of control as well as to minimize or eliminate H's temper/rages.  She was very right, although I had never looked at it that way, specifically.  I know I am trying to do that with this situation but on some level realize that there is no "orchestrating" this situation and that there will really be no way to minimize H's reaction and that absolutely terrifies me.  I keep saying I'm not afraid that he will physically harm me, but at the same time it is in the back of my mind "what if".   

I am going out of town with my daughter the weekend of January 17-20.  I can't let on about this or tell him before that because he will be home with our boys that weekend (which I'm not thrilled about, but they will be miserable if they have to be at a tournament for 3 days straight).  My sister moves out of her house the first weekend of February.  I think my husband has his monthly guard drill on the 8-9 and my daughter has a volleyball tournament on the 9th.  She also has an out-of-state volleyball tournament on the 14-16 so my best option for leaving would be on February 8, provided I could get everything moved in one day.  Otherwise, my next "best" option would be February 22-23, but he will be home that weekend. 

When I start thinking about all of this my head starts spinning because I have some saying it's best if I stay in the house and I completely "get" why that is.  I don't WANT to leave our house, but also moving to my sister's house is a great option particularly since I should be able to purchase her house.  Except that I'm concerned that if H stays in the house he will stonewall and delay selling which would potentially prevent me from being able to buy her house when she is "ready" to sell it.  If I stay in the house and he decides to leave then I will do my best to sell it quickly but then will have to find a new place to live because my sister won't hold hers for me as they need the money from their house to buy a new one.  There aren't a lot of houses for sale in our town and I could build once my house sells but then I'm potentially having to do a temporary move. 

So... . these are the thoughts constantly churning around in my head... . along with constantly trying to "predict" how my H will react and what is the "best" way to do this without triggering him and is it even possible that we will part amicably?  Ugh... . this is SOO hard and I am driving myself crazy with the "what-ifs". 

What I said about being too fair and too informative would risk sabotaging yourself applies here.  While no one can say to what extreme he might react, the point is that it's not worth the risk.

I completely "get" this but it is so opposite of who I am!  I don't know how to BE that person!  Even though I know it is in my best interests.  Because... . if him being left in the house isn't the best option but I still want to move to my sister's house then I need to have him "in a better place emotionally" so that he will hopefully work WITH me and not against me.  Again... . trying to orchestrate. 

I have an appointment with a lawyer tomorrow morning and I am going to try and get some advice specifically about the housing situation.  I then will have to use that information to make an informed decision and then just go with it.  At some point I have to just take the plunge.  I caught myself several times over the weekend just telling myself that it would be easier to just stay with him and deal with the intermittent rages - this line of thought is why I have been with him for so long.  I always told myself that I could "handle" the rages as long as he was "decent" the rest of the time.  I had to keep reminding myself that I don't want to be in this marriage anymore and that the best thing for ME is NOT to stay and tolerate, but to get out and live my life.  This is just so hard!

Anyway, thank you everyone for your advice.  I will post more after I talk to the lawyer tomorrow... .

[livednlearned]

I will be honest... .  I am terrified.  This money thing is really scary to me because I really believe it is going to be a huge trigger for him.  But, you're all picking up on the fact that despite the fact that I am aware that the money could be a huge trigger, I still have this strong desire to "not hurt him" ... .  I guess more for the purpose of trying to minimize his reaction as well as the fact that I really just don't want to hurt him (or anyone for that matter).

This is a really, really important! Guilt seems to be common among people who get into (and stay) into BPD relationships, ie: us, those of us who are here on bpdfamily. It's part of the FOG (fear, obligation, and guilt) dynamic and now is the time to begin healing it. When you leave, you are taking the first step toward caring for yourself. It will feel strange at first, and you will feel guilt, but focus on what the law determines is fair and legal because that's what this is about -- being fair. I needed to focus on what the law recommended when I left because I felt the same way. I was so apologetic to N/BPDx! Even though he was so toxic and abusive. Your ex won't be able to treat you fairly, and those laws are there to protect you from his narrow view of what you deserve. You are protecting yourself, not hurting him. Protecting yourself and having boundaries does impact other people, and recognizing that, and learning how to be ok with that, is probably the most powerful thing you will learn this first year after divorcing him. He is responsible for his feelings and reactions, not you.

[Waddams]

Just wanted to add - tell him as little as possible.  If he's got a duty weekend and will be gone the whole time, do the move then.  Don't tell him.  Just let him come home to you gone.  Don't tell him about swiping the money.  Just take it, then close the account.  Time a process server to show up monday morning and serve him after you've moved out.  Leave no joint accounts open with him.  Nothing.  Transfer your cell, everything.  They can do that in an hour at a cell store.  Pick a different carrier, transfer your number, and get your own account.

It's simpler than it feels right now to just do it all.

[livednlearned]

Just wanted to add - tell him as little as possible.  If he's got a duty weekend and will be gone the whole time, do the move then.  Don't tell him.  Just let him come home to you gone.  Don't tell him about swiping the money.  Just take it, then close the account.  Time a process server to show up monday morning and serve him after you've moved out.  Leave no joint accounts open with him.  Nothing.  Transfer your cell, everything.  They can do that in an hour at a cell store.  Pick a different carrier, transfer your number, and get your own account.

It's simpler than it feels right now to just do it all.

It's true. I accomplished a lot in the day I left -- I think a bunch of angels showed up and helped me. I also wrote N/BPDx a letter that detailed why I was leaving, but had worked on it with my T for a few months. If you do this, make sure your L knows what you are sending him. Nons tend to self-sabotage by saying we feel bad for taking the money, or leaving him, that we are the problem. But after you get out for a while, you see the disorder much more clearly. You break the spell. And you don't want a document trail that plays into his hands.

It will be hard, but honestly -- it's better on the other side. So much blissful peace.

[nevaeh]

Update... .

I saw a lawyer yesterday and met with her for almost 2 hours.  I felt a lot better after talking to her.

We talked through the dilemma of whether to tell H ahead of time or just move out and not forewarn him.  She helped me work through the legal ramifications as well as being aware that there are some definite personality issues that need to be considered.  She said several times "you know him better than me... . but this is what I would recommend as a lawyer... . "  We were all over the board on what would be "best".  At one point were in agreement that it might be best to not tell him ahead of time and just move out, notifying after I was out that I want a divorce.  However, when I asked her a question about what I could/should tell my kids (and when)... . the conversation took a complete 180.  I had already asked if it was "OK" for me to take the kids from the home and she said it was.  When the question about what/when to tell the kids, I had this moment of realization that there is no way I can wake the kids up on a Saturday morning and tell them that we are moving out that day.  I cannot do that to them.  My S13 does not handle transitions well anyway and to do this to him with absolutely no warning would probably put him over the edge.

So... . I have decided that I will tell him the week after my daughter and I return home from an out-of-state volleyball tournament from the 17th-20th.  H will be home alone with boys that weekend and so I won't tell him before I leave, it will have to be when I come back.  My sister moves out of her house February 1-2 so that gives me two weeks to "talk" all of this through with H to determine how he is going to react to all of this and to figure out if I will need to stay in the house (and he move out) or if I can/should move to my sister's house.  Lawyer was adamant that I have a safety plan and that I remove anything from the house that I absolutely don't want to lose in the event I have to leave quickly.  I will do that this weekend, although there are some things I can't take without it being obvious to H. 

I will withdraw money from the account on a Friday morning and go back home to tell him while the kids are at school.  This gives us a few hours to talk it through, uninterrupted, and if things go south I will pick the kids up from school and we won't go home.  Sister moves out on Feb 1/2 and I will move to her house on the 7th/8th if things are horrible at home with H.  If H is being decent then I will try to talk it through with him as to what is best for kids - kids and I staying in current house, or kids and I moving.

In talking to the lawyer, I think I have some things in my back pocket that will help me.  H is extremely frugal with money.  If we can work through things mostly through a mediator (and our lawyers) and court time isn't required, then that will keep costs down.  If H starts fighting me on every point just to be difficult, then it will If at any point he becomes "difficult" about the whole thing then the courts will have to get involved and costs start going up exponentially (for both of us).  Lawyer told me that we could get by as cheap as $2K (although she doesn't see that happening in our case) and as high as $10K-$15K for BOTH of us!  I know pwBPD can be unpredictable, but I don't see him thinking that spending that much money is in anyone's best interest.  I will be going for full custody and if he doesn't agree with that then we will again face court time.  While we both have good retirement accounts, I believe that I may be able to make some concessions where I give up some of that retirement money in exchange for full custody.  Obviously don't know how this will play out, but I have a feeling that if he can't logically see that the kids should be with me that the threat of taking half of his retirement account may help him see the light.  I told the lawyer I only want to be fair, I have no interest in "screwing him over" or getting more than my fair share.  I made it clear to her than he could make this very easy or very hard. 

So, now I have a pretty good plan.  My dad gave a check for the retainer to the lawyer today and the lawyer is drafting the paperwork.  When I'm ready she said to just give her a call and they will file the dissolution paperwork.  I am a bit nervous today, but also feel a weird sort of calm.  I feel like I'm not going to be able to back out of this now which is good because historically I always just backed out because it was easier than moving ahead.

I know I have gotten a lot of great advice about what I should do.  I'm probably going the opposite way that some would recommend but I feel that is what I need to do.  The perspectives on leaving without telling him were very important, however, because it helped me think through that scenario in detail.  It basically comes down to the fact that he will trigger when I tell him, he will trigger when I remove money from the account, and he will trigger when I actually move out.  If I do all three at the same time I am concerned that he will literally blow.  If I parse it out into pieces I think it will go better.  Lawyer also pointed out that if he is a "planner" that telling him ahead of time might actually make it a bit easier because he will have time to "adjust" to the idea and figure out how it will impact him.

I'm sure I'm going to be a nervous wreck the next couple of weeks until this finally comes to pass.  Then, maybe, I can breathe a bit of a sigh of relief. 

Thanks all... .

[Waddams]

I know I have gotten a lot of great advice about what I should do.  I'm probably going the opposite way that some would recommend but I feel that is what I need to do.

You know your situation best and I don't see anything wrong with how you're proceeding.  I think one of the biggest reliefs is always when the uncertainty and indecision gives way to a firm plan and clear decisions and directions you will take.  You don't feel like you're spinning wheels anymore and are actually making progress.  It feels good!

Good luck! 

[livednlearned]

It's good that you are thinking about the kids, what each one of them needs, and how to tell them, what's best for them. You may want to start a thread about that -- lots of us here learned after the fact about things that would've helped the kids. And what kids want to know depends largely on their ages. I did a good job explaining to S12 that my job was to keep us safe, and I didn't think I could do that anymore, so we were going to live somewhere else and I was filing for divorce. S12 was seeing a T, and she helped me think of other things to say. I also talked to the counselors at S12's school, and when S12 acted out (he was 9 at the time), they knew why, and responded with support and understanding instead of the wrong kind of discipline.

One good indication about how your H will respond is that he gave you the silent treatment after you mentioned divorce -- he did not get physically abusive. Still, you may want to have someone on speed dial when you tell your H. Have your car parked in a place you can easily get away if you need. Tell someone when you are about to inform your H, and have them be nearby just in case. Maybe ask them to call or text you at a certain time, and have a signal if you need them to come. I know it sounds over the top, but this is going to feel like true abandonment to your H, and sometimes people snap. We can only hope for the best and plan for the worse.

Good luck to you. Please let us know you're ok.

[GaGrl]

In addition to your retirement accounts, I assume you'll also have the leverage of 50 per cent of his military pension?

[ForeverDad]

Beware of being too fair, too nice, too whatever.  Why?  Many reasons.

• You don't know what your finances will be years from now, so be reluctant to gift too much away.



• A pwBPD won't appreciate your fairness (neither will the courts care) and it won't be consistently reciprocated either.



• A pwBPD will make sure you get shortchanged about other things, without any sincere empathy.



• Before you gift things away make sure you have the entire package wrapped up, loose ends may get sabotaged.

[nevaeh]

One good indication about how your H will respond is that he gave you the silent treatment after you mentioned divorce -- he did not get physically abusive. Still, you may want to have someone on speed dial when you tell your H. Have your car parked in a place you can easily get away if you need. Tell someone when you are about to inform your H, and have them be nearby just in case. Maybe ask them to call or text you at a certain time, and have a signal if you need them to come. I know it sounds over the top, but this is going to feel like true abandonment to your H, and sometimes people snap. We can only hope for the best and plan for the worse.

I believe his initial response will emotional - sad, crying, negotiating, pleading his case, etc.  If I know him well enough, if he has anger about this it will take place later... . hours, days, weeks.  I have a backup plan to move out of the house if I see that happening and he has refused to move out.  My parents, sister, and a few friends know what is going on and I will tell them the day/time I will tell him and they will be available if I need them.

In addition to your retirement accounts, I assume you'll also have the leverage of 50 per cent of his military pension?

Yes... . he will not be happy about this, though.  If we were to stay married, both he and his spouse will get health insurance coverage when he retires, which is a huge benefit.  Once I divorce him I will be giving that up and have to try and predict what it will cost me to purchase my own coverage.  Granted, that's 20 years, but that expense could be huge and I may need it. 

Beware of being too fair, too nice, too whatever.  Why?  Many reasons.

    You don't know what your finances will be years from now, so be reluctant to gift too much away.

    A pwBPD won't appreciate your fairness (neither will the courts care) and it won't be consistently reciprocated either.

    A pwBPD will make sure you get shortchanged about other things, without any sincere empathy.

    Before you gift things away make sure you have the entire package wrapped up, loose ends may get sabotaged.

I appreciate that input... . after talking to the lawyer I do feel a bit better about my situation.  It's a bit tricky though because both the military pension and his pension for his current job are defined benefit that are based on his rank and/or salary when he actually retires, so the amount of the benefit is unknown at this time.  My lawyer explained how they try and estimate that the dollar value is, but it's really a guess because it takes into account life expectancy, etc.  If he dies when he's 65 then there would be no benefit.  If he dies when he's 85 then that's 20 years of benefit.  Same with military pension.  So that is probably the most complicated part of this.  He also has deferred compensation but that one is easy because we could just transfer my portion to my own account.  I also have a good retirement account so that will have to be split as well, so we'll see how it all equals out. 

My lawyer will be very important in telling me what is best for me, financially.  I intend to really only make concessions in order to make sure I get full custody.  We are in a good enough position financially right now that I don't "need" the extra cash to make a go of things.  If I didn't have a good job then I might be in a very different situation.

ForeverDad... . you have some very good points and I have to keep reminding myself of those things.  I hope that H and I can "agree" on most things but I have to stay firm with the fact that all of those agreements will have to run through my lawyer first.  I know H will try and manipulate me and/or trick me into making agreements that will benefit him but will disguise them as better for me. 

[livednlearned]

My lawyer will be very important in telling me what is best for me, financially.  I intend to really only make concessions in order to make sure I get full custody.  We are in a good enough position financially right now that I don't "need" the extra cash to make a go of things.  If I didn't have a good job then I might be in a very different situation.

I understand this thinking because I did it too -- but if your H is like other pwBPD, you may find yourself using the court system to get him to comply with the order. First, you have to work with high-conflict personalities to settle. Then you have to work with them to make sure they comply. There are really two stages to the divorce process. For many of us, the settlement process, the first stage, was tough. But then there are people like me, in the second stage, who have had to hire a lawyer every step of the way to get the disordered spouse to comply.

I gave him the house -- all he had to do was refinance. That was my concession so I could get a better custody arrangement. And then it took him almost 2 years and a bunch of court hearings to refinance. He was found in contempt of court and I was awarded legal fees that I have yet to see and needed to hire my L to get the fees from him. I'm still waiting.

That's what FD is saying -- if you can afford to make concessions, that's one thing. But when you make them, don't think that it will get rid of the conflict. People with BPD aren't consistent in their emotions, so what he agrees to and feels one day does not necessarily mean he will feel the same the next day (or the next minute).

Whereas we do think that way. "If I give N/BPDx the house, he will not fight me on these other things."

Didn't work that way for me. I wish I had fought for the house so I had enough money to cover the legal bills it cost me to get him to take the house I gave him.

[Iforget]

I appreciate all this info. In similar situation. My spouse is already retired military and working again. One thing u can ask for in divorce agreement  is him to purchase survivor retirement plan. If he dies before you, you would continue to collect half his retirement from military. I am waiting to see tax return. I don't work due to health reasons. Spouse hides finances from me. They will be visible on tax return, which I will make sure I see this year. Good luck.

[nevaeh]

My lawyer did mention the survivor retirement plan, so I think she is knowledgeable enough to help figure this out.  My H is in the National Guard and their retirement is different because even if they officially retire before age 62, they don't actually get to draw retirement until they turn 62 (or 65, can't remember which).  When my H hit 20 years in the military, he had an option to purchase the survivor retirement plan or not, and the idea was that he would purchase supplemental life insurance to cover.  So, right now, if he were to die tomorrow I don't know what my status would be for getting his military retirement, which has bothered me anyway (regardless of divorce or not).

My H doesn't hide finances, per se, but he takes care of all of the bills and investments so I'm sorry to say I'm a bit in the dark.  I have a general idea of what is going on but not as much as I should. 

I wonder if all of your finances would show on your tax return (for example, your H's work retirement, etc).  I think the only things that will show up on the tax return are any investments for which you receive a 1099 or interest statement.  I know we don't get anything for taxes in relation to our retirement accounts.  Your H's W2 should show how much he is contributing to retirement and if he is contributing anything to a deferred compensation account I think that comes out of a different category and would also show on the W2. 

My H has a stash of silver coins in our basement (he purchased as an investment).  He isn't hiding them from me, he has shown them to me and I know they are there, but I am afraid those might disappear once I tell him of divorce.  My lawyer has advised me to take an inventory of what is there so that it can be included in marital assets.  Hopefully your H hasn't gone to extreme measures to hide money from you.  If you have a way of looking back at bank accounts to see if any large withdrawals were made that would be your first clue. 

Good luck... .