Isn't this more about control than a disorder ?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

the two instances i can think of where i had "aha!" moments:

1) near the end i felt that my ex was prolonging arguments unnecessarily, even when i would back down from them and try and be civil. she kept seeming to try and stoke the fires even when i would leave and go to another room physically, she's come back for more and say something snide. one day i noticed she was holding her phone in her hand in a funny way. and it dawned on me--she was recording the arguments. and she was purposefully 'stalking' me because when i didn't say or do anything bad, this angered her because she didn't get the evidence she wanted that i was abusive in the recording so she would keep trying to trick me into being triggered. when i caught her, she admitted it and tried to play me arguments she had recorded from weeks before -- please try and tell me how that is not manipulation.

2) long story short: during arguments sometimes my ex would cry, shake, shrink away and act as if she were afraid of me like i was going to physically attack her. this only happened a few times after the r/s ended but we still lived together. it was nearly impossible to figure this out because i would always leave when she got like that as i never wanted to frighten her. but again--got to trust your gut instincts. one day i did trust it and figured it out. i didn't leave when she started her started her award winning performance. instead i moved past her and made sure that she was free to leave if she felt unsafe--then i told her if she was really afraid of me that she could get the hell out, but i was done leaving on her accord. she promptly shut up, stopped crying, copped a snotty attitude and finished making her cup of tea (i was washing dishes in the kitchen).

if i hadn't trusted my gut and figured out these conscious manipulations on my own i might be suffering like many here. i could have thought that i was a scary and abusive person to her... . but i'm so happy and healthy to find out this wasn't the case. i don't have to worry about that anymore.

waverider, this is why i point out manipulation to others, not as a way to vent but only as a way for us to separate the truth from the lies.

[goldylamont]

the two instances i can think of where i had "aha!" moments:

1) near the end i felt that my ex was prolonging arguments unnecessarily, even when i would back down from them and try and be civil. she kept seeming to try and stoke the fires even when i would leave and go to another room physically, she's come back for more and say something snide. one day i noticed she was holding her phone in her hand in a funny way. and it dawned on me--she was recording the arguments. and she was purposefully 'stalking' me because when i didn't say or do anything bad, this angered her because she didn't get the evidence she wanted that i was abusive in the recording so she would keep trying to trick me into being triggered. when i caught her, she admitted it and tried to play me arguments she had recorded from weeks before -- please try and tell me how that is not manipulation.

2) long story short: during arguments sometimes my ex would cry, shake, shrink away and act as if she were afraid of me like i was going to physically attack her. this only happened a few times after the r/s ended but we still lived together. it was nearly impossible to figure this out because i would always leave when she got like that as i never wanted to frighten her. but again--got to trust your gut instincts. one day i did trust it and figured it out. i didn't leave when she started her started her award winning performance. instead i moved past her and made sure that she was free to leave if she felt unsafe--then i told her if she was really afraid of me that she could get the hell out, but i was done leaving on her accord. she promptly shut up, stopped crying, copped a snotty attitude and finished making her cup of tea (i was washing dishes in the kitchen).

if i hadn't trusted my gut and figured out these conscious manipulations on my own i might be suffering like many here. i could have thought that i was a scary and abusive person to her... . but i'm so happy and healthy to find out this wasn't the case. i don't have to worry about that anymore.

waverider, this is why i point out manipulation to others, not as a way to vent but only as a way for us to separate the truth from the lies.

[Pou]

Wave, Goldy and Max and everyone  … your input are valuable and the opposing views are making this a balanced discussion. 

I am tilting to the view that I do believe NPD/BPD are capable of controlling their behaviors.  Wave, you mentioned that your SO had two broken up relationships and is a low functioning BPD, this does not mean that she is not "smart".  I know many smart people who know how to manipulate people to get what they want, they may not be very good at it, but it never stopped them from trying.  The difference is that some of NPD/BPD are better at their tricks then others, so quite a few actually do well in corporate ladder.  I think in order to climb the ladder fast, many have to kind put their conscience aside and in a very general sense, I think our capital structure favors the people with PDs.  Not always true, but it does appear to be the case.  If you are empathetic, you will have hard time climbing over someone else.  When I stopped pushing the idea that my wife has NPD and there is hope to make her better … I become "enlightened" and accepting it is what it is … and began to see that my wife made conscious decisions to be destructive toward our relationships and our family dynamics, instead desperately trying to "rescue" and "fix" something that can not be repaired, I come to accept and work around and put up as much I can in order to ensure my kids are taken care of and they get to enjoy our presence, separately or together.  So far, my wife's target is just me … I am the whipping board. 

Goldy, looks like our experiences are similar … and our views are similar too.  But I do feel most NONs probably see the way we experience it... it is just that society has already classify it as a "disorder".  My thoughts is unless we bravely let go the romantic notion that they will one day understand how bad we are hurting and miraculously one day they will start to see our view, we will never be free from the pain and suffering they inflicted on us.  I don't view the word "hope" is a good thing in a NDP/BPD relationship.  The odds are stacked against you and even you are able to get a nice pad on the back for the hell that you walked through … what does that mean?  True love prevailed?  is it really true love?  S/he made your life miserable for the 99% of your life spent together and for that one moment that she turns around, and that is good enough for you?  We worth much more than that.  I don't hate my NPD/BPD wife, I just want to manage the situation so I can survive in one piece and perhaps at the end of the day… dare I look and hopefully found some happiness.

[Jonie]

A good subject, as this theme comes up often in reactions and posts. From my experience and insights, I agree with Waverider. I see BPD as an affliction that can touch all kinds of people, both kind- and evil hearted. And it will act out accordingly. As for my partner, I strongly believe he was not evil. He did some really awful things, but I think he is in essence a good person, but just incapable of behaving as such. Deep down he probably feels very guilty, ashamed and inadequate for being the person he is.

As for manipulation... . hmm, I’m not sure... . We always had to do things his way. But I never experienced it as a control things. More in the sense that he needs to feel comfortable and safe by doing things the way he has always done them. He always dresses the same, cooks the same way, makes love the same way... . Essentially, his way of behaving has not changed since adolescence. It’s part of his identity.

Added to that is his lack of empathy. He just doesn’t notice our wishes not even if we spell (or yell) them out and is not capable of making compromises.

The thing he does manipulate, are his own thoughts. He simply ‘forgets’ things that are unpleasant to him or are too difficult to deal with.

By the way, I had the impression that being manipulative is something else with BPD’s than with NPD’s. I’m not well informed on NPD, so I may be completely wrong, but I had the impression that for NPD’s egocentrism is the core issue of their disorder, the cause of their behaviour, while for BPD’s egocentrism is a result – namely of their inability to control their overwhelming feelings and emotions. This is why for NPD’s egocentrism is not problematic, as it comes naturally, so to speak, while many BPD’s feel guilty and ashamed of it (unless they’re of the evil hearted kind, of course). Another difference related to this is, that as feelings cloud their way of thinking, BPD’s suffer from delusions and psychotic episodes, while NPD’s are more often clear and intelligent thinkers. Which will also have a different effect on their 'manipulation skills'.

From the posts I see that there are people here having experience with both BPD and NPD: do you think this makes any sense?

[Pou]

… As for my partner, I strongly believe he was not evil. He did some really awful things, but I think he is in essence a good person, but just incapable of behaving as such. Deep down he probably feels very guilty, ashamed and inadequate for being the person he is.

As for manipulation... . hmm, I’m not sure... . We always had to do things his way. But I never experienced it as a control things. More in the sense that he needs to feel comfortable and safe by doing things the way he has always done them. He always dresses the same, cooks the same way, makes love the same way... . Essentially, his way of behaving has not changed since adolescence. It’s part of his identity.

Added to that is his lack of empathy. He just doesn’t notice our wishes not even if we spell (or yell) them out and is not capable of making compromises.

The thing he does manipulate, are his own thoughts. He simply ‘forgets’ things that are unpleasant to him or are too difficult to deal with.

…...

Jonie, I am not saying NPD/BPDs are "evil" to everyone.  But I do believe to the NONs, their actions are "horrible" and "evil" … otherwise, how do you describe the senseless and relentless attacks and controlling ways?  I think for myself, the hardest part to reconcile about my partner's NPD behaviors are also the inconsistencies on her interactions with others and with me on daily basis.  My point was that I used to feel the same way as you do and as the books tell me how to see NPD/BPDs … see it as a disorder, try to walk around it at times and be firm and define the boundary ... and etc.  Well … didn't really work.  I felt worse about myself everyday because now I feel that I am the failure that my partner wasn't getting better.  Essentially, the book and the conventional wisdom made me take responsibility of her actions … in reality, as I have experienced this ... I realize now that it is not my responsibility to empathize and feeling obligated to fix this situation.  I am not the one who chooses to be destructive.  Some may say ... oh, BPDs don't know when they are being destructive and then proceed to make up tons of excuses for them.  I like to inform you that many many people had twisted childhood and yet not everyone turn out to be dysfunctional.  The point is that for the NONs … stop torturing yourself and feeling that you can fix it.  My advice is that we either accept that this is how they work or back out as carefully as possible.  I notice because this is a controlling issue.  If you "announce" that you are leaving or confront him or her in any unpleasant way … it will elicit a "control" response, and next thing you know your life will be made to be in hell.  Although the prefer method is not suitable for interacting with normal human beings … my advice is not to disclose your true intention but slowly fade away … it is very very hard for normal people to do.  I myself has not been remotely successful … far from it.  But I do genuinely believe that if the NONs really want to obtain happiness again, 1) you will need to first slowly detach yourself from your relationship slowly and don't worry about who is right and who is wrong, focusing on wanting your own happiness; 2) slowly fade from your relationship by creating small distance on daily basis.  And if you are lucky, someone will swoop right in and take your spot, but you have to act as if you are disappointed and fits in what his/her script calls for.  Otherwise, it will elicit his or her need to unleash tactics to "control" you again.  

Simply put, I think the manifestation of this "disorder" is really from the desire to insert unreasonable control over another human being.  :)ominating his or her life … perhaps, by doing so, they feel a sense of empowerment.  I don't think there is a need for the NONs to continue to make excuses for this person who suppose to love us, and instead they torture and manipulate us like cheap puppets?  And driving us into deep depressions, zero self worth and living in a state of fog.  Is this love?  They may not be evil to anyone else, but they are surely evil to the receiver.  If we keep making excuses for them, then we will be in a state of perpetual limbo … back and forth… and without a clear resolution, our mind can never find peace and constantly be confused and lost.  

[waverider]

 My point was that I used to feel the same way as you do and as the books tell me how to see NPD/BPDs … see it as a disorder, try to walk around it at times and be firm and define the boundary ... and etc.  Well … didn't really work.  I felt worse about myself everyday because now I feel that I am the failure that my partner wasn't getting better.  Essentially, the book and the conventional wisdom made me take responsibility of her actions … in reality, as I have experienced this ... I realize now that it is not my responsibility to empathize and feeling obligated to fix this situation.  I am not the one who chooses to be destructive.  Some may say ... oh, BPDs don't know when they are being destructive and then proceed to make up tons of excuses for them.  I like to inform you that many many people had twisted childhood and yet not everyone turn out to be dysfunctional.  The point is that for the NONs … stop torturing yourself and feeling that you can fix it.  My advice is that we either accept that this is how they work or back out as carefully as possible.

This is a good point, but it takes a while to reach this realization. The focus is on fixing "us" and our interactions. This will have a flow on effect to the pwBPD. Some may react favorable and things will improve, other swill only react badly. As you say it is then your choice to stay or go once you have got your head back into reality.

I am lucky I have reached a position of pretty much rediscovering me and even developing further than I ever was before. I have more control and say in my own life than before including my previous RS's (It was me who had two priors, not my partner). A lot of this has been hard fought but it is now established.

Her "manipulations" are on the level of a kid who has scoffed all the cake but flat out denies it even though they have cake all over the face. Just silly little things based around fear of being blamed. Luckily there are no big issues.

Biggest complaints I have are an apparent lack of effort applied to most things, reluctant to do things out of obligation or responsibility. Avoidance issues if you like. She is quite happy to openly hand over control of everything to me, this never used to be the case.

I believe the reason she is low function is because she was the weakest link in a disordered family, so was the subject of endless invalidation and controlling ways (much as you describe) of her mother and siblings. Who in turn I believe have a fear of not being in control.

She was straight A student (due to obsessive approach to study I believe), yet now can't even plan her day effectively, no consistency in thought process whatsoever

Which brings up another question. Is the desire for control driven more by a fear of not being in control of their environment in case the internal chaos is allowed free reign?

[Pou]

Waveriders, I would like to comment your observations and thoughts from your last post,  … and without quoting them here again, I will try to comment on your insights. 

First of all, it is very interesting to be on this board, because I notice NONs are very intelligent.  There are many talks about how NPD/BPDs are very smart, but I think you can be very smart and being a very good person to. My definition of a very good person is simply someone who doesn't do things to hurt another human being and able to feel remorse and understood what is right and what is wrong. 

Waveriders, you mentioned that your partner came from a home full of PDs.  I found this is usually the case as well.  It is strange, but I am unable to attribute the manifestation is more due to genetics or environmental.  As right now, I think it is 80% genetics and 20% environmental.  I leave it 20% of cure rate … I guess.  Also, I think NPDs do well in society is not purely due to their intelligence, it is largely due to their false sense of confidence that is very contagious.  Most people will not appear to be confident unless they are aware that they have the ability to back it up.  NPDs are not like that, they feel that they deserve more then what they earn/given at all times, so they constantly looking for ways to climb and appear to be self confident at all time.  So in a corporate / structured environment, they thrive … and they elevate.  Of course, they also have to possess certain degree of competency to start with in order to climb.  Waveriders mentioned about your partner who is BPD and used to be an A student and now seem to be a low functioning BPD.  I also have encountered people like that who are not close to me … but I know enough to see her as a BPD.  I think this downward spiral has to do with this BPD individual's ability to deal with "controlling" her internal inadequacy …. chaos churning inside.  As a friend or a family member with a healthy distance, these people are ok to deal with.  However it is very tough on their spouses or partners.  Constant blame and drama … they find ways to control and manipulate their close ones just to regain their internal sense of control of this world.   If you should decide to leave, their world would go to hell and anything can happen.  I think this has nothing to do with characterizing BPD/NPDs as evil or not, the reality is that you being "normal", her perception is that you will "destroy" her world, so she must do anything she can in order to keep her "world" as is.  That is where the controlling behavior coming from.  NPD/BPDs don't know how to play fair.  They only care about how they feel and what they want.  They essentially NEGLECT their partners' needs and in a spousal or romantic relationship, this is essentially abuse if this were to be repeated day after day.  They also flat out refuse your emotional and physical needs as a way to gain control over you.  You need something, they won't give it to you … just so they know they have the upper hand and ignoring the meaning of what a relationship is about.  In that sense, they are also sociopath … because they do not observe or practice societal definition of relationships and they have no problem breaking their responsibilities in order to achieve what they want.  I think it is hard to be a NPD/BPD without having some sociopathic tendencies.   

Waveriders, you asked: "Which brings up another question. Is the desire for control driven more by a fear of not being in control of their environment in case the internal chaos is allowed free reign?"  I think my above comment has addressed your question, which is a hypothesis driven from my own experiences and materials that I read. 

I am a sucker for love, but all my life, I have very very hard problems in finding that.  My own life experience prior to my wife has kind enhanced my attraction for NPD/BPDs.  I just hope that as this NPD/BPD field starts to become more visible, we can start to see less of this type of problems … or will we start to see more due to some of them now have an excuse to commit bad behaviors due to the labeling of them as a "disorder"?

[goldylamont]

I just hope that as this NPD/BPD field starts to become more visible, we can start to see less of this type of problems … or will we start to see more due to some of them now have an excuse to commit bad behaviors due to the labeling of them as a "disorder"?

Pou i agree with much of what you are saying, however for me having the label "personality disorder" is a good thing. I don't see it as an excuse for this person's behavior (you can probably tell from some of my posts). I see it as a simple way to categorize behaviors. finding out about BPD and then seeing that my ex behaved pretty much exactly like others has helped me immensely. so in a way i feel categorizing this as such makes it easier for us to label and predict the behaviors of pwBPD.

i do think some use the label as an excuse and i think others do not. however i feel it's useful to have this label as it represents an understanding of what's going on. as in, through all the lies this person spins about who they really are, i now know what you are, just a pwBPD, predictable.

[Pou]

Goldy, I don't mean that we should not put a "name" to some like BPD/NPD … what I was saying is that when we classify it as a "disorder", it immediately becomes an excuse in the court of law for people to misbehave or for people not to claim responsibilities of their actions.  I am with you regarding being able to give this problem a name helps tremendously.  One thing that I notice that it helped me is knowing that I am not alone.