Us (me) vs Them (her)

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Obibens brought up a good point in a recent thread and I didn't want to hijack it.  Those of us who have a codependency/caretaker personality usually carry a mask of a self confident, I am a great catch person who can make anything work. We have developed this mask since childhood to cover our true self esteem issues of not being good enough due to childhood wounds. This mask evolves into narcissistic traits of us believing we have the power to make any relationship work.  

I am not a shrink but looking at myself I believe that a person with BPD evolves the same way but is just more severely damaged than myself. I believe this is because of their extreme soft temperament, extremely faulty parenting, outside family destruction by someone, or by emotional or physical abuse.

I believe the way I felt towards the end of my relationship is very similar to the way a BPD feels every day of their dysregulated lives.  My theory is I picked up her traits through her projection onto me. My self esteem was gone, I feared abandonment. It felt like this was a life or death situation. I was not thinking straight, couldn't concentrate, and would fly off the handle at even the smallest things. I felt betrayed by the one person who was supposed to love me.  I felt so empty inside and caught myself daydreaming constantly. I also was so impulsive that I made horrible decisions I wish I could take back.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts, especially from those who have done a lot of research.  

[Waifed]

Obibens brought up a good point in a recent thread and I didn't want to hijack it.  Those of us who have a codependency/caretaker personality usually carry a mask of a self confident, I am a great catch person who can make anything work. We have developed this mask since childhood to cover our true self esteem issues of not being good enough due to childhood wounds. This mask evolves into narcissistic traits of us believing we have the power to make any relationship work.  

I am not a shrink but looking at myself I believe that a person with BPD evolves the same way but is just more severely damaged than myself. I believe this is because of their extreme soft temperament, extremely faulty parenting, outside family destruction by someone, or by emotional or physical abuse.

I believe the way I felt towards the end of my relationship is very similar to the way a BPD feels every day of their dysregulated lives.  My theory is I picked up her traits through her projection onto me. My self esteem was gone, I feared abandonment. It felt like this was a life or death situation. I was not thinking straight, couldn't concentrate, and would fly off the handle at even the smallest things. I felt betrayed by the one person who was supposed to love me.  I felt so empty inside and caught myself daydreaming constantly. I also was so impulsive that I made horrible decisions I wish I could take back.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts, especially from those who have done a lot of research.  

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Waifed,

All of your stated points are right on the mark as far as my case is concerned, ie. me, the typical CoD enmeshed with a textbook female Waif. (If only I'd known better and read more on the subject before I got too deep in the mess).

I'd just like to add the overlapping aspect of Denial that covers both the CoD and the pwBPD.

And let's see how are our views on the subject.

While the CoD and the pwBPD both show denial in their thinking and actions, the previous seems to have more insight than the latter in what you termed "the mask" of omnipotence.

Denial, I believe runs deeper for the pwBPD than the CoD because of the weak/ lack of self that is suffered by individuals with deep-seated BPD traits.

I do not deny the possibility that Denial will corrode the inner functionings of the co-dependent person. This is especially true in the final portion of the relationship when everything is contrary to the truth that things will not work out, but the CoD will still stubbornly (pathologically) hang on to the belief that he/she could salvage the obviously hopeless relationship with the pwBPD.

As for the pwBPD, Denial often takes over to such a greater extent that they will lapse into dissociation/ psychosis/ cutting/ splitting etc... . that are, at best, more crises that the CoD must cope with, but NOT "catch the flea" and follow suit.

Having said that, as a recovering CoD, I find that the greatest hurdle to conquer is the coping of the EMOTIONAL aftermath of exiting a BPD relationship.

SoS

[Perfidy]

Wow... . Some pretty heavy stuff there soliderofsorrow. I can tell that you are doing a ton of self reflection to come to those realizations.

Waifed, I share similar views as SOS... It defiantly takes two to tango. I like to promote health in healing. When we suffer our broken hearts it's up to us to mend them. They can heal healthy. They can heal deformed as easily. The division that we place between us and them isn't healthy. It creates a stigma. My thinking is that largely the pros make the division and we just accept it. Hate the game. Don't hate the player.

[Waifed]

I agree with what both of you are saying.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Perfidy,

It takes some "heavy" guns to face a serious situation. (You can't bag a charging rhino with a .22 slug!)

I know it has often been said that the BPD/ Non distinction is a myth but instead, it is a continuum.

But seriously, that is like saying that ALL humans (no matter how many BPD traits we all have) have emotions and subsequent coping mechanisms, hence, we are all humans under the same umbrella term.

Even in the Spectrum theory, there has to be a threshold, a cutting-off point, that one could separate a BPD from a Non.

The pwBPD is someone whose traits are severe enough to interfere with their interpersonal/ professional/ academic functioning.

The "Non", whose BPD traits are often reactionary anyway, is someone who still has his/her s**t together enough to (at least TRY to) make the doomed relationship work... .

And speaking of BPD traits, my humble opinion is that Mirroring and Projection go hand in hand in a dysfunctional dance with these lovely but deadly waifs.

Initially, the Mirroring from their part, tears down all of our defenses and make us vulnerable.

And that's when the Projection comes fast and strong, which disorients us from our own values and boundaries.

So yeah, according to the Spectrum theory of BPD/ Nons, they both have similar, over-lapping issues that pre-existed before the relationship.

But in the end, in terms of self-awareness, and help-seeking behaviors, the pwBPD and the Non are still worlds apart.


SoS

[schwing]

Obibens brought up a good point in a recent thread and I didn't want to hijack it.  Those of us who have a codependency/caretaker personality usually carry a mask of a self confident, I am a great catch person who can make anything work. We have developed this mask since childhood to cover our true self esteem issues of not being good enough due to childhood wounds. This mask evolves into narcissistic traits of us believing we have the power to make any relationship work.  

I can identify with the description of CoD carrying a mask of self confidence.  I also used to have the fantasy that I had the power to make any relationship work.  What was hard for me to accept was that I had no idea what kind of relationship I actually wanted for myself; in my mind, *any* relationship was sufficient.

I am not a shrink but looking at myself I believe that a person with BPD evolves the same way but is just more severely damaged than myself. I believe this is because of their extreme soft temperament, extremely faulty parenting, outside family destruction by someone, or by emotional or physical abuse.

I think pwBPD are just damaged differently.  We can benefit from being in a kind of recovery.

I believe the way I felt towards the end of my relationship is very similar to the way a BPD feels every day of their dysregulated lives.  My theory is I picked up her traits through her projection onto me. My self esteem was gone, I feared abandonment. It felt like this was a life or death situation. I was not thinking straight, couldn't concentrate, and would fly off the handle at even the smallest things. I felt betrayed by the one person who was supposed to love me.  I felt so empty inside and caught myself daydreaming constantly. I also was so impulsive that I made horrible decisions I wish I could take back.

Towards the end of my BPD relationship, I felt very much the way I imagine a pwBPD might feel because I was actually abandoned/betrayed.  I think pwBPD have a lot of their dysregulations because they are often dealing with feelings of fear of abandonment/betrayal that get displaced into their current relationship.  When we go through *actual* abandonment/betrayal, we go through a similar emotional experience; but presumably we have more emotional tools than they did when they had their primary abandonment/betrayal trauma.

As a CoD, I think one of my underlying issues was not fear of abandonment, but fear of intimacy.  Why else was I so compelled to pursue women who were *incapable* of intimacy.

While the CoD and the pwBPD both show denial in their thinking and actions, the previous seems to have more insight than the latter in what you termed "the mask" of omnipotence.

I think that pwBPD can be particularly gifted in having insight into the psyche of *others*.  I don't know how else my exBPDgf was able to show me exactly what I wanted and was willing to almost give up on myself in order to get.  Others have described them as "sirens" for a reason.  However, I would agree that their insight into the human psyche is crippled when it comes to applying it to themselves.  But then again as a CoD, I think that I am also a "cripple" when it comes to self-knowledge over what it takes to cultivate my emotional well-being -- this is where I continue to struggle with some progress.

Denial, I believe runs deeper for the pwBPD than the CoD because of the weak/ lack of self that is suffered by individuals with deep-seated BPD traits.

I think our wounds run equally deep, but are different.

I do not deny the possibility that Denial will corrode the inner functionings of the co-dependent person. This is especially true in the final portion of the relationship when everything is contrary to the truth that things will not work out, but the CoD will still stubbornly (pathologically) hang on to the belief that he/she could salvage the obviously hopeless relationship with the pwBPD.

I see denial as a universal human defense mechanism/coping mechanism.  None of us are able to see anything unless/until we are ready to see it. 

Having said that, as a recovering CoD, I find that the greatest hurdle to conquer is the coping of the EMOTIONAL aftermath of exiting a BPD relationship.

I think handling our emotional aftermath is what we are all struggling through, CoD or BPD.  CoD or BPD are both able to make the same kinds of good choices as well as bad choices.  We can all either choose to work on ourselves, or else not.

My 2 bits,

Schwing

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

CoD or BPD are both able to make the same kinds of good choices as well as bad choices.  We can all either choose to work on ourselves, or else not.

Exactly my point, schwing!

That could very well be the point of distinction in the continuing spectrum between BPD's and Non's.

I mean, how many people (fellow Non's) are here on this board seeking help and sharing our experiences about the pwBPD in our lives who refuses any/all forms of therapy?

[Waifed]

I am in therapy. I once suggested therapy to the ex and she looked me right in the eyes and said "I don't need therapy". Not much you can do with that.

What makes them so resistant to therapy?  Lack of trust? Stronger Narcissistic traits?

[heartandwhole]

I think that pwBPD can be particularly gifted in having insight into the psyche of *others*.   Others have described them as "sirens" for a reason.  However, I would agree that their insight into the human psyche is crippled when it comes to applying it to themselves.  But then again as a CoD, I think that I am also a "cripple" when it comes to self-knowledge over what it takes to cultivate my emotional well-being -- this is where I continue to struggle with some progress.

I think in a way we are, too (sirens).  A lot of us had insight into exactly what the pwBPD needed.  I think co-dependent traits are part of what makes me good at homing in on what someone needs and giving it to them, all the while hoping one day to get something similar in return (!).

Learning to turn that around toward myself hasn't been easy, and I'm still learning.  It has been much more difficult to meet my own needs than those of someone I love (which for me, has meant "need" too).

Very insightful thread.  

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Waifed,

In the early years of the relationship, I have tried to get my ex to try a basic treatment with SSRIs to counter her mood swings/ PMDD.

She never adhered to any drug treatment(s) long enough to stabilize her moods.

I think this was partly due to the "exquisite sensitivity" of pwBPD to the side effects of the drugs.

And if it wasn't a magic bullet type of quick fix, she would reject it and stop treatment.

Then I suggested that she see a counselor. And before I knew it, she has split the psychologist black.

Next came a few more years of futile cycles of attempts on drug treatment/ talk therapy/ CBT... .

Nothing stuck. It was all like water running off a duck's back.

Why was my case of pwBPD resistant to treatment?

In retrospect, I think it was a mixture of lack of trust (defensiveness) due to longgggg unresolved childhood traumas with parent/authority figures, Narc tendencies of an infantile magnitude, that attitude of "Just Give Me What I Want NOW,Or Else"... . , and also, the fear of losing control of their own psyches (however diseased they are).

After all, they have been surviving in a closed system of internal working that they have tailored made to protect themselves from a world that has failed them for as long as they could remember.

ANY therapy from the "external" world is a dire threat to their sense of internal stability.

If you were in their shoes, wouldn't you reject external interventions, too?

SoS

[Waifed]

It's like everything they do, or don't do leads to self destruction. It's literally worse than a cat chasing their own tail. At least the cat eventually tires and gives up. It's so tragic.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

It's like everything they do, or don't do leads to self destruction. It's literally worse than a cat chasing their own tail. At least the cat eventually tires and gives up. It's so tragic.

And a cat chasing its own tail wouldn't end up hurting any other creatures nearby... .

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

But then again, the tragic days of the cat chasing its own tail are over.

We are OUT of that self-destructive BPD cycle.

Stay strong, stay sane, and look to the future!

[schwing]

What makes them so resistant to therapy?  Lack of trust? Stronger Narcissistic traits?

I think it's a combination of issues.

First is their "splitting" behavior, or black and white thinking. If you only have room in your mind to believe that you can only be either "perfect" or else "perfectly worthless", you're going to choose to see yourself as "perfect."  Or else the degree of self-criticism and scorn will be so great it would lead them to depression and suicidal ideation.

For them to be able to accept that there is something wrong with them would require that they would have to be able to break this kind of distorted thinking.

Even if they agree to go to therapy, the kind of relationship they might end up developing with the therapist could also mimic their interpersonal relationships: mirroring, idealization, enmeshment, devaluation, et al.  Some therapists find pwBPD too much to handle because pwBPD are likely to figure out all of the therapists' buttons and push them.

Another handicap pwBPD have to deal with is the tendency towards impulsiveness.  It is much more appealing to believe that you only need to find the "right" person, than to commit towards a long and drawn out (and painful) recovery.  It is easier for them to believe in a fantasy quick fix, than to choose a long slog.

But some of them do, because some recover.  And in the same vein, some CoD choose never to break their cycles either.  You probably don't see too many of those around here because the community would call them out.

I think in a way we are, too (sirens).  A lot of us had insight into exactly what the pwBPD needed.  I think co-dependent traits are part of what makes me good at homing in on what someone needs and giving it to them, all the while hoping one day to get something similar in return (!).

I believed for many years that I was a magnet for pwBPD.  I don't think I've ever had the kind of allure of a siren; I'm more likely to be the sailor that crashes his rowboat onto the reef (or car into a street sign) because I can't not listen to their sweet song (or keep my eyes on the road).

As a CoD, I share that trait with you: my delusion is that I can find someone to take care of, so they can in turn take care of me.  This is not to say some degree of dependency is not a normal part of a healthy interpersonal relationship.  But rather, my unhealthy tendency is take care of others in lieu of taking care of myself -- because I find taking care of myself to be the most difficult thing for me to do.

Learning to turn that around toward myself hasn't been easy, and I'm still learning.  It has been much more difficult to meet my own needs than those of someone I love (which for me, has meant "need" too).

I don't know about you.  But I think one of the reasons why this is so hard for me is several fold: my parents conditioned me to believe that any attention to myself is a selfish action... . I was "rewarded" for spending my time and attention to focus on what they considered important (usually themselves even if it is a convoluted connection).  Also when as a child, one's feelings are often invalidated enough (i.e., you're not allowed to be sad, angry, etc... . ), then you learn to ignore your own feelings.  And when you learn to tune out your feelings, how do you know what your needs are?

Trying to change this has required a kind of re-parenting.

[santa]

Excellent post, Waifed.

Very thought provoking. 

[Waifed]

Excellent post, Waifed.

Very thought provoking.  

Thanks Santa.  My mask is permanently off nowadays and I let it all hang out  

[Turkish]

I think that pwBPD can be particularly gifted in having insight into the psyche of *others*.   Others have described them as "sirens" for a reason.  However, I would agree that their insight into the human psyche is crippled when it comes to applying it to themselves.  But then again as a CoD, I think that I am also a "cripple" when it comes to self-knowledge over what it takes to cultivate my emotional well-being -- this is where I continue to struggle with some progress.

I think in a way we are, too (sirens).  A lot of us had insight into exactly what the pwBPD needed.  I think co-dependent traits are part of what makes me good at homing in on what someone needs and giving it to them, all the while hoping one day to get something similar in return (!).

Learning to turn that around toward myself hasn't been easy, and I'm still learning.  It has been much more difficult to meet my own needs than those of someone I love (which for me, has meant "need" too).

My x used to say something like this about me. I think she had a point. My T even asks.me the same thing. "What do you do for you?" I still find the question kind of incomprehensible. All in all, however, my mind and my life have always raced miles a minute. I never felt the need to make a production about "doing for me." Being a latchkey kid, I learned to do for myself from a young age. I think at times my BPDx felt that I did not need her. I think there is some truth to that as well. I did a lot of the running of our lives, though I tried and tried to engage her in things (financially, I see that she did learn a lot from me). But that wasn't what she needed from me. In the end, our needs became mismatched, the dynamic of having children complicating everything, and the relationship unraveled rather quickly. In summary, we no longer needed each other but we both refused to realize it.