What is empathy to them?

[Depression = 72% of members]

This might come out strange because I am not really sure what I am asking.  It seems that my exUBPDgf had little to no empathy toward me.  She did however seem to have empathy toward children, people how had children pass away, children with special needs, animals.  But almost all other situations she never showed any.  And again toward me none.    Does any of this make sense, or can anyone relate to this?

[Tincup]

This might come out strange because I am not really sure what I am asking.  It seems that my exUBPDgf had little to no empathy toward me.  She did however seem to have empathy toward children, people how had children pass away, children with special needs, animals.  But almost all other situations she never showed any.  And again toward me none.    Does any of this make sense, or can anyone relate to this?

[Perfidy]

Empathy is abstract to anybody. To them, to us. To anybody. She most Lilly had empathy but didn't act on it. She didn't show it so you didn't see it.

Was she good at hiding her feelings?

[Tincup]

Perfidy-Yes she was very good at hiding her feelings. I could almost read her eyes to tell me if she was hiding her feelings. 

We both had children, and we did not live together at any point in our relationship.  That being said we had two different households etc.  If I was in a bind with my kids, she just could never put herself in my shoes (or she just wouldn't put herself there).

It wasn't just kids, it was anything.  If I ever asked her to take a day off work she couldn't, but if she asked me and I couldn't she would break up.  Even when I tried to talk to her about this she just could not see it.  I think she really did not have the skills to show empathy at all.  I wonder if she just plain related to young kids better than adults?  She was physically and emotionally abused as a child.  She is a teacher and is around young kids all day.  It almost seems like she sees certain young kids as herself at that age.  The more I come out of the fog and process this failed relationship the more screwed up I see it was. 

[Perfidy]

That lopsidedness is standard in sick relationships. I experienced this too. That FOG is tricky.

[seeking balance]

This might come out strange because I am not really sure what I am asking.  It seems that my exUBPDgf had little to no empathy toward me. 

Was this also true in the beginning, the idealization phase?  

She did however seem to have empathy toward children, people how had children pass away, children with special needs, animals.  But almost all other situations she never showed any.  And again toward me none.    Does any of this make sense, or can anyone relate to this?

Actually, pwBPD tend to have a lot of empathy, as any emotion they tend to feel quite strong.  Many higher functioning are in nurturing roles - teacher, T, P, Dr, nurse etc and a lot of the superficial patients/peers can feel very comfortable because of level of empathy.

Likely, the dynamic with you is specific to the disorder.  It is a disorder that shows itself in intimate relationship - thus, you.  The push/pull is the way to keep you at a distance, yet close.

I know it is confusing when we are the love and the target.

Best,

SB

[Moonie75]

PwBPD have no problem showing empathy... . It's only that they cannot empathize with any situation they have had a role in! Too much SHAME involved.

They can fully empathize as much as you & I with events where someone else owns the shame. That's because there's no need for them to look inwards at their action then, the focus is on somebody else's actions or misfortune!

[Tincup]

Seeking Balance--Yikes I didn't think about the beginning stage and empathy until you just mentioned it... She showed almost nothing but empathy in that stage.  Before we started dating she knew a lot about me and my situation with my divorce and my ex.  She was hyper empathetic, almost to the point that it was creepy.  And she always kept the ability to empathize as far as this one thing went. 

I really wonder what she is like with her own kids behind closed doors.

[seeking balance]

Seeking Balance--Yikes I didn't think about the beginning stage and empathy until you just mentioned it... She showed almost nothing but empathy in that stage.  Before we started dating she knew a lot about me and my situation with my divorce and my ex.  She was hyper empathetic, almost to the point that it was creepy.  And she always kept the ability to empathize as far as this one thing went. 

It is during this idealization that we tend to overlook the big Red Flags.

I really wonder what she is like with her own kids behind closed doors.

push/pull - kids are objects

Go read the board of those parented by a pwBPD for a good account of the self esteem damage it can do.

[Ironmanrises]

Empathy to them would be in what context is the pwBPD viewing you from. Pre-trigger(idealization), mine showed tons of empathy(in friendship as well, until of course she started to like me like that and then it would stop). Post-trigger(devaluation), empathy exhibited towards me declined rapidly while remaining steady and/or increasing to everyone else around her(almost as if to spite me). Just my opinion.

[happylogist]

Agree totally with Moonie75.

When it comes to people that are or were close - shame and existential guilt of being step in and empathy becomes less visible for others and themselves as well.

More they feel the pain is caused by them - less emphatic they get, more they want to leave and defend their own ego by blaming.  Push and pull and never saying the genuine sorry are part of it.

[Waifed]

I believe that empathy patterns with loved ones are tied to their passive aggressive behavior. As someone who has been in therapy due to PA issues I can say that I had very strong empathy for others but once the honeymoon stage of a close relationship ends my empathy for that person virtually vanished and was replaced with resentment. My empathy for non loved ones never waned.

It was a defense mechanism to control my fear of abandonment. My partners always told me that they felt like i could them or leave them. In reality I would have fallen to pieces if they had left me. I would control my partners by methodically messing with their heads all in the name of making sure they would never leave me. Some of the manipulation was intentional and some was unconscious.  I would then lose respect for them once they were under wraps. I would convince myself that my partner was the one destroying the relationship and I was justified by my actions. I would resent my partner, especially during stressful periods.

My PA would calm down for periods and I would be happy with my partner again but the resentment was always just under the surface. I also had very bad engulfment issues and basically felt like my life was over when locked in to a relationship. The engulfment and resentment would culminate in me making things so bad between us that I would justify my leaving because she was impossible to be happy with. The saddest part of all is I walked away from every relationship with almost no thought about my ex partner. No empathy. No remorse for my actions. No sympathy for the hurt my ex partner was going through. I would have never become aware of my issue had it not been for the trauma of this relationship. I am ashamed of my actions now.  My ex wife (not BPD) acknowledges that I have become a totally different person after just 4 months of treatment so fixing PA behavior is easy if the person is aware and willing to work on things.

I am not Borderline but I believe that because most have strong PA (my expwBPD destroyed me even though I did my best to control her) traits they probably follow similar patterns. I assume their empathy issues are related to the effects of PA and their underlying issues with fear of abandonment, fear of engulfment and the resulting necessity for control.

[karma_gal]

I believe that empathy patterns with loved ones are tied to their passive aggressive behavior. As someone who has been in therapy due to PA issues I can say that I had very strong empathy for others but once the honeymoon stage of a close relationship ends my empathy for that person virtually vanished and was replaced with resentment. My empathy for non loved ones never waned.

It was a defense mechanism to control my fear of abandonment. My partners always told me that they felt like i could them or leave them. In reality I would have fallen to pieces if they had left me. I would control my partners by methodically messing with their heads all in the name of making sure they would never leave me. Some of the manipulation was intentional and some was unconscious.  I would then lose respect for them once they were under wraps. I would convince myself that my partner was the one destroying the relationship and I was justified by my actions. I would resent my partner, especially during stressful periods.

My PA would calm down for periods and I would be happy with my partner again but the resentment was always just under the surface. I also had very bad engulfment issues and basically felt like my life was over when locked in to a relationship. The engulfment and resentment would culminate in me making things so bad between us that I would justify my leaving because she was impossible to be happy with. The saddest part of all is I walked away from every relationship with almost no thought about my ex partner. No empathy. No remorse for my actions. No sympathy for the hurt my ex partner was going through. I would have never become aware of my issue had it not been for the trauma of this relationship. I am ashamed of my actions now.  My ex wife (not BPD) acknowledges that I have become a totally different person after just 4 months of treatment so fixing PA behavior is easy if the person is aware and willing to work on things.

I am not Borderline but I believe that because most have strong PA (my expwBPD destroyed me even though I did my best to control her) traits they probably follow similar patterns. I assume their empathy issues are related to the effects of PA and their underlying issues with fear of abandonment, fear of engulfment and the resulting necessity for control.

Waifed:

Thank you so much for posting this.  I have read literally thousands of pages of info about PA behavior -- because my H is the KING of it -- and had my "aha" moment more than ever reading your post.  This explains my H's behavior more accurately than anything else I have read or been told.  I felt like I had been punched in the gut when I read it, because it was so dead-on. 

I don't want to hijack the thread, but could you please either post or PM me and let me know what it was that made you realize your behavior was unhealthy and destructive that led you to therapy?  I'm not sure that my H sees the behavior as destructive yet -- he's still blaming me -- but if there's a way to get through to him, I would be willing to try it. 

[Waifed]

Karma

I don't think we are hijacking because I really think this is why their empathy is so poor with loved ones.

I always knew that my relationships followed the same pattern with me always leaving. The trauma of my BPD relationship lead me to search inside myself. I came across an article that described PA. It was my aha moment and I have never looked back. The article stated that it was very treatable but unfortunately most with PA will not acknowledge it without some sort of traumatic life altering event. Feel free to PM me or if you start a new thread I will be happy to post.

[LilMissSunshine]

PwBPD have no problem showing empathy... . It's only that they cannot empathize with any situation they have had a role in. Too much SHAME involved.

They can fully empathize as much as you & I with events where someone else owns the shame. That's because there's no need for them to look inwards at their action then, the focus is on somebody else's actions or misfortune.

Moonie... . you just sent shivers down my spine.  Not only can't they "empathize with any situation they have had a role in", they simply project it back on us.