Question about communication w/ ex

[Mutt]

I'm at a loss or maybe I'm misinterpreting. Communication tools such as SET, PUVAS and DEARMAN found here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0 are they to be used IF your in a r/s with a BPD SO?

Can they be applied when your divorced to communicate and try to move forward with your ex when it comes to children?

I'm asking because I'm having difficulties in communicating with my ex. I know that I trigger her in the way that I respond or react to her when it comes to her projection, blame storms etc... . I want to try a pragmatic approach when it comes to communicating.

Has anyone applied these communication tools sucessfully when your BPDex has left you and has split you black? Since I have known her in the last 8 years this is the longest that I've been split black for. I'd say it's been around 10 months, but only until recently have I noticed that she's been splitting me back to white (white for roughly 6 weeks), then black again today. I know that it's not something that she can control or any actions on my part can change "splitting", any suggestions when your separating, divorcing for communication would help.

[Matt]

I think those tools can all be used whenever you are trying to deal with someone who has BPD or a similar problem.

I also think the first thing to do is decide how much communication you should have, and how it should be structured.  For example, if you are not living together, and are only talking to her because you have kids together, then I would suggest using e-mail not phone or face-to-face, and keeping it focused on specific things related to the kids.  Just "I took Child to the doctor and she gave her an antibiotic.  I'll send the medication and instructions to you when I drop her off Saturday." or whatever - nothing about the past, nothing emotional, just the facts.

Is that where you're at now?

[Mutt]

Yes that's where I'm at Matt. Everything is in e-mail regarding the kids.

Divorce has come up from time to time (barely) in the last year. It's not something that she wants to talk about. 12 months ago she threatened to call the police on that subject because she said I was harassing her. I'll deal with D in court through my L whether she likes it or not. It's secondary for now.

Communication goes like this. E-mail. Kids.

I'm asking because I don't know if I'm doing it wrong with her when I call her out on projection. I got 50/50 (interim) last week. Now there's more communication about the kids, that's how things are changing.  I'm using this behavior as one example.

Without going into a long rant this is the current issue: My S6 friend(s) mother said that she doesn't want my son at her home anymore because of the conflict/games my ex with plays with her. There's a bit of history there between the 2 in the last 2 years. My ex was trying to get it out of me as to why my son is not allowed there and I said it's not my choice and I can't control what someone else does. She's been attacking me and trying to distort that I'm not give her information, etc... . She wanted me to talk to the woman about something that didn't happen. It's not for me to "defend" my ex to someone else. The replacement should take care of that. The fact of the matter is, my wife is projecting her feelings on me. She feels bad because my son is not allowed to play over there by himself anymore because of the drama that she causes.

I call her out if she is projecting/emotionally abusive behavior.

Do you defend yourself by calling them out on bad behavior?

Simply ignore all of it and take the high road?

I know that none of this gets through to her because she deflects/distorts/projects her behaviors unto others because she's never the problem and it's all about her feeelllliiiings.

Can it make her symptoms and behaviors escalate on me and unto others? Can she became crazier? I've told her straight out that she's a personality disorder (I've heard that's the worse thing to do to a BPD is to call them as such)

I'm consciously concerned about making things worse for her and those around her (my kids) by possibly triggering her. That's why she left in the first place. I'm a trigger.  She can't tweak her rapport with me because it's a part of her personality, I can adapt and change. 

[Matt]

Well of course this is 20/20 hindsight, and I don't know all the details, but here's what my gut tells me... .

Focus on S6, and on his friend and his friend's mom, not on Ex:

* See if you can have a talk with the friend's mom, and form a relationship with her, that doesn't involve Ex.  Don't defend or explain Ex, except to say, "I'm sorry that happened.  But how can you and I work it out so S6 and Friend can keep being friends?"

* Maybe offer to have S6 and Friend over to your place, and make it a good time - have healthy snacks - be a good "mom".

* Or maybe offer to take them both someplace, like a movie or pizza.  Maybe include Friend's mom and/or dad and get to know them better.

* Thank the friend's mom, no matter what - even if she says no to what you suggest - "OK, well, I understand.  Thanks for your time."

* Maybe let S6 have other kids over too, so if that one friend doesn't show up, he can have fun with the other kids.  Encourage him to have more than one friend.

It's all about S6, and his friend and his mom are important to you because they are important to S6.  Ex doesn't have to enter into the equation!

In the meantime, don't engage Ex on the subject, unless it is productive.  If she raises the subject, and you sense that there's a way to have a good, productive discussion - if she seems genuinely interested in what went wrong and what she can do better - great.

But if she is trying to start a fight with you, or trying to get you to fix things, you don't have to engage in that.  As soon as that comes out, just end the conversation - no need to be subtle.

Ex says, "This is all your fault!" and you say, "So I'll drop S6 off on Saturday at noon as usual.  Bye." and hang up.

Ex says, "OtherMom is a creep - why don't you tell her she's out of line on this?" and you say, "So I'll drop S6 off Saturday at noon as usual.  Bye." and hang up.

Get good at ending conversations quickly, and keep doing it, any time she takes it away from what is best for S6.

I even had to learn to hang up the phone on my wife, before we were divorced - she would start in, and I found that my only choices were to listen to her abuse, or hang up the phone, so I learned to just hang up the phone, and that worked very well.

Your relationship with her is over.  You can't fix it.  You only talk to her about specific things for the kids.  You don't have to respond in any way, or continue a conversation, unless it's productive and focused on the kids.

[Mutt]

Thanks Matt. I appreciate the post. I'll take what I need from it and it helps immensely.

I don't understand the entire thing myself from this last incident.

All that I know is that the friend's mother said that my son saw an action figure or something to that effect that had scared him. Ex has been blowing it out of proportion and saying to her kids that they are telling him scary stories and to stop. I heard about this about a month ago. Ex wants me to approach this woman and tell her to tell her kids to stop telling my son scary stories. I've seen this myself with my son at his birthday party, someone had an app that showed ghosts in the environment (AR) and he was talking about it for hours. I know that it's something that bothers him and I explained to him at his birthday that it's a game and there is no such things as ghosts, it's make belief like movies or stories.

My ex and this woman have had issues at the school over the last year since I separated and that's why I'm vague on the details because I'm at work and I don't understand all that transpires between the two. Knowing my ex and the capacity with the truth and her behaviors towards me in the r/s and especially with her lying about replacement in the last 2 years. Who am I supposed to believe? There's no reason to trust ex and automatically defend her.

The other woman's issues started with ex when ex saw that her kids were playing outside and she asked if my kids could play with her. My ex would then take off for hours and not say anything to her. She dumped my kids on this woman in the summer of 2012. I'm guessing it was to go and see the replacement because that's when he started coming into the picture. Irregardless of that, this is where this woman lost respect for my ex. I can understand that. She simply told me that she doesn't want to get involved with anything with my ex that comes back to her and causes conflict so it's better that my son doesn't come to her place anymore. I don't like the fact that she also put me in the middle of this. I told her it's her decision, I support it but I don't entirely agree with it because it affects my son directly and it's my wife that has the problem with her because she can't admit that she was wrong in what she did, so she wants things swept under the carpet and wants people to act as if nothing happens. I also don't agree with her extreme thinking, but it's her choice.

Ex has been trying to pull me in this for the last couple of days and I got caught in a circular argument with her and she's trying to project this on me. It makes me feel sick inside dealing with her nonsense and getting things twisted like I'm not being a good father to my S6 for nothing saying anything to the woman. I simply told my wife that she is projecting this on me, it has nothing to do with me, it's the other woman's decision and it's out of my control. I'm not going to automatically defend my ex because I can't trust anything that she says. I used the replacement as an example. I had asked her if there was another man and she simply laughed at my face and said "no". That's one example of MANY where she distorts or lies. I told her if she wants someone to defend her, go to replacement and not me.

I'm not proud of my actions in getting stuck in a circular argument with her and I'm tired of feeling bad/sick because of dealing with her malaise when she attacks me on this stuff. It stressed me that I explained my wife to the other woman as well. I'm done with being the in-between with explaining her behaviors to others.

Your relationship with her is over.  You can't fix it.  You only talk to her about specific things for the kids.  You don't have to respond in any way, or continue a conversation, unless it's productive and focused on the kids.

This. Thank you. I'm going to change my approach. This will also make me feel better not getting sucked up/enmeshed with her emotional drama. Focus on kids and not her.

Rome wasn't built in a day, but with time and practice, I'll get there.

[Matt]

I've found that if I raise my profile a little - I talk directly with the kids' teachers, coaches, doctor, and friends' parents - they all have the chance to see me as myself, not through my ex.  I have relationships with all those adults - not close relationships maybe but they know me well enough to make their own decisions.  They all deal with me reasonably.

This is a big change from how it was before I stepped back away from my ex.  Neighbors and relatives had a very different picture of me.  Some of those relationships will never be fixed - they will always see me the way my wife described me, not as I really am.

So I think you're going through this same process.  You might not be able to fix things with that one woman - S6's friend's mom - but you can raise your profile with many others and some of this baloney will go away.

You can also do what we all have to do - it's been 6 years for me and I still have to work at it - minimize interaction with Ex and keep it all about the kids.

[Mutt]

I've found that if I raise my profile a little - I talk directly with the kids' teachers, coaches, doctor, and friends' parents - they all have the chance to see me as myself, not through my ex.  I have relationships with all those adults - not close relationships maybe but they know me well enough to make their own decisions.  They all deal with me reasonably.

This is a big change from how it was before I stepped back away from my ex.  Neighbors and relatives had a very different picture of me.  Some of those relationships will never be fixed - they will always see me the way my wife described me, not as I really am.

So I think you're going through this same process.  You might not be able to fix things with that one woman - S6's friend's mom - but you can raise your profile with many others and some of this baloney will go away.

You can also do what we all have to do - it's been 6 years for me and I still have to work at it - minimize interaction with Ex and keep it all about the kids.

Good advice.

I've lost all mutual friends with ex a year ago. None of them believe in "there's two sides to a story" My family knows what she's like but don't understand what I say when I try to explain things. I've given up on that.

I agree with creating a profile or rapport with teachers, kids friends parents, doctors. I had not thought about that and it makes absolute sense. Kind of fireproofing future distortion campaigns in a sense.

[Matt]

I agree with creating a profile or rapport with teachers, kids friends parents, doctors. I had not thought about that and it makes absolute sense. Kind of fireproofing future distortion campaigns in a sense.

Yeah, and it has other advantages:  When a Custody Evaluator or some other neutral court reporter talks to those people - as they did in my case - they will find that you are communicating well with key people for your kids' benefit.  Everybody our CE talked to said good things about me.

Plus you'll get help with a lot of things - suggestions that moms give each other but dads don't always get unless we open our ears real wide.

[Mutt]

I agree with creating a profile or rapport with teachers, kids friends parents, doctors. I had not thought about that and it makes absolute sense. Kind of fireproofing future distortion campaigns in a sense.

Yeah, and it has other advantages:  When a Custody Evaluator or some other neutral court reporter talks to those people - as they did in my case - they will find that you are communicating well with key people for your kids' benefit.  Everybody our CE talked to said good things about me.

Plus you'll get help with a lot of things - suggestions that moms give each other but dads don't always get unless we open our ears real wide.

Matt thanks again for the insight. Your posts have been very knowledgeable and opens my eyes to a bigger picture.

I recalled thinking today about my P and what she said. She said she can't diagnose someone that she hasn't seen. She said I would teach you some tools on how to communicate with her, but she's in a committed relationship with someone else and you said you are done.

[Matt]

I recalled thinking today about my P and what she said. She said she can't diagnose someone that she hasn't seen. She said I would teach you some tools on how to communicate with her, but she's in a committed relationship with someone else and you said you are done.

Yeah - different tools for a different situation... .

[Mutt]

Yeah - different tools for a different situation... .

The SET, PUTAS, DEARMAN ship sailed a long-time ago Matt.

Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

She's been reaching out to me more since the 50/50 order.

I panicked and thought "whoah, am I supposed to be applying something else here?"

[Matt]

"reaching out to me"... .

For the first year or so, my ex "reached out to me" in very hostile ways - threats, accusations, etc.  That's when I had to be really disciplined about not engaging with her except simple practical e-mails about the kids.

Over time that has largely changed.  She has at times "reached out to me" in more productive ways - to let me know about the kids' behavior or to talk with me about some problem she perceives.  Sometimes I don't agree there is a problem, and sometimes I think her perceptions of the kids' behavior is different than mine.  But mostly the conversations have been appropriate and she hasn't attacked me or tried to bully me.

So there's hope.  But I do believe that if I let down my guard, and lapsed back into the kinds of conversations we used to have, she would take advantage of it, and start up again.  I don't think she's any healthier than ever - I haven't fixed her, I've just stepped away from her.

[Mutt]

"reaching out to me"... .

For the first year or so, my ex "reached out to me" in very hostile ways - threats, accusations, etc.  That's when I had to be really disciplined about not engaging with her except simple practical e-mails about the kids.

My ex throws around a lot of blame... . and yes accusations, threats, intimidation. She proclaimed to have moved on. People that move on don't say it, they just do.

But I do believe that if I let down my guard, and lapsed back into the kinds of conversations we used to have, she would take advantage of it, and start up again.  I don't think she's any healthier than ever - I haven't fixed her, I've just stepped away from her.

She's estranged, but I'm not divorced... . yet.

No need for me to have conversations with her as if we're married.