Please help me understand.

[Wanna Move On]

Please help me try to understand a concept I absolutely CANNOT wrap my head around.     

I've read that the cluster of symptoms diagnostically labelled "Borderline Personality Disorder" predominantly revolve around abandonment fears. (Or is it lack of early-life trust? Or is it environmentally induced? Or is it biologically-based? Or is it some combination of all?)

I CANNOT understand WHY a pwBPD, having achieved marriage with someone who truly DOES love and care for them, who supports them emotionally, who seeks to validate and nurture them in a new and healthy environment -- unlike their original traumatic FOO environment; WHY would that pwBPD NOT be able to adjust to their new environment, to their new validation, and -- in effect -- not "normalize" and/or grow "healthy" in the safety and security of their NEW, loving, validating environment?

WHY would mutual love, in theory, NOT have the power to help a pwBPD "cure" themselves -- even when the BPD fully acknowledges their problem, acknowledges the love of the SO, and desires to change/no longer be chaotic?

Why would a secure, powerful, "safe" attachment bond (a loving marriage) NOT help an attachment-disordered person feel attachment?

Please, no cliched answers like: "it is a mental illness," or "it's a 'disease'," or "that's just the way the 'disorder' works"; those seem too conceptually simplistic.

Why can love NOT help a BPD heal their inner templates?

Please help me try to understand!           

[myself]

In my case, I think deep down she just could not believe in it. Whatever happened to her in the past put up too many walls. She fights against the good instead of appreciating it. Her life is built of lies, which makes the truth her enemy. Feeling bad is what she knows. Does she even love herself?

[Ironmanrises]

The very thing a pwBPD craves the most is love/intimacy and when "achieved" as in relationship/marriage becomes the very thing the pwBPD fears. No middle ground. It is a disorder that exists to deny itself. No amount of love will ever heal the fragmented personality. I hope that wasn't cliche.

[Cimbaruns]

IMO

I think they are emotionally stuck in the world of a child.

In my case my BPDw , having lived as a child in a world filled with uncertainty, unpredictability,verbal and emotional abuse, non trust, and raised in an environment filled with adultery and parental abandonment., they must begin to build walls for protection.

When we meet them , I think they fall in love with us, however it's more like they fall in love with the concept of someone really having empathy for them and caring for them

Most of us are co dependent and we are presented with the perfect person to care for... .

I also believe that since their "world" was continually changing as that "child" they begin to distrust us and what we provide them... . so security probably means. ... . "somthins gonna happen" so they bolt or revolt.

I think the concept of marriage for her in our "dance" provided a perfect fantasy... . but it wasn't something she could hold onto forever.

She found all kinds of ways to make me think it would never work... . once the newness of it wore off... .

The commitment, the security , the wonderful concept of "growing old together" is something she would never be able to hold onto... .

The only thing that mystifies me is their needing to be in constant contact with old relationships, no matter how old... . AND the fact that these people allow toallow them  do this!

She cheated on me 5 weeks ago, lying all the while that things were okay... .

The ultimate betrayal... . and she's still talking to the woman I replaced

So very very hard to comprehend indeed

There a lot of great articles to read on this board... . read them and you may find that it helps you to better understand this very perplexing personality disorder that we've all shared in... .

I understand your pain Wanna move on... .

[fromheeltoheal]

In a clinical sense, a borderline gets stuck when detaching from their primary caregiver.  Before and right after we're born we consider ourselves to be one person with our mother, with no concept that we are two individuals.  At some point our mother leaves us in the crib or whatever, we notice she's gone, have an intense fear that she's not coming back, abandonment trauma as it's called, we weather that trauma and the subsequent depression, and eventually become our own person, separate from her, a critical part of becoming an autonomous individual.  A borderline never does that, never goes through that abandonment trauma, gets stuck, seeks attachments to become 'whole', literally, and continually fear that abandonment.

Unlike belief systems, which are like software and can be deleted and changed, the 'stuck' thing happened when a borderline was very young and preverbal, rational thought was not yet possible, so it gets hardwired into their personality, and becomes who they are.  It's also subconscious, so a sufferer doesn't know why they feel the way they do or do what they do.  There are no hardware fixes, specialized long term therapy can teach a sufferer to handle the way they're wired and function better in the world, but 'loving' them enough or differently won't work, won't fix it, although we tried, oh boy did we try.  

I can totally relate to how you feel, hopefully the above helped.  Take care of you!

[bewildered2]

great question.

firstly, try reading "i hate you dont leave me" by jerold kreisman. it will open your eyes to what this is all about.

my understanding is that the borderline person can not adjust because he/she is either too damaged by an early life experience, so the damage is permanent, or so called "hard wired" into how the brain works, once the "plasticity" is gone (the same reason it is easy to learn a second language when you are young but very difficult once you are older), so it is like trying to "teach an old dog new tricks". Or, the brain function is not possible because of the way it was made, in other words, something was wrong about them from the start.

the thinking is now that the person with BPD can learn to think differently, but he/she has to be motivated to do so, and it is a 3 year process, like going to university to do a degree. who is going to do that when they have been blaming others for everything that has gone wrong all their lives?

frustratingly, intelligence doesn't seem to help the matter either. the super intellignent BPD finds it easier or more convenient to blame others for their bad behavior, and they get away with it because they are so clever and convincing and typically end up with kind souls who keep giving them more chances, so there is no obvious or immediate reason to accept responsibility and do the hard work to recover. they just move on to the next poor guy or gal, turn on the charm, and then play the same game all over again.

b2

[schwing]

Hi Wanna Move On,

Please help me try to understand a concept I absolutely CANNOT wrap my head around.     

I will make an attempt.

I've read that the cluster of symptoms diagnostically labelled "Borderline Personality Disorder" predominantly revolve around abandonment fears. (Or is it lack of early-life trust? Or is it environmentally induced? Or is it biologically-based? Or is it some combination of all?)

Here is the rub: their abandonment fears may have no basis in their present day reality.

My understanding is that people with BPD (pwBPD) may have suffered an abandonment trauma in early childhood.  The establishment to date don't really understand what trauma does to the developing mind; they are still working on understanding how the adult mind is affected by trauma.  So think of people who suffer from PTSD, like a war veteran.  When they are no longer at war, they still find themselves reacting to "normal" situations as if they might still be at war.

Now take that idea and apply it to someone with PTSD as it relates to abandonment and betrayal.  Even though they are in a context in which the person they are attached to does not want to abandon them, they are still overcome with the feelings left over from that original trauma.  So even though you have zero intention to abandon/leave them, they are still dealing with these feelings and can only attribute the source of these feelings to their nearest available subject, us.

Does this have anything to do with the lack of early-life trust?  If they've *never* established what trust is in early development, much less internalize that kind of relationship, then they have no frame of reference on how to trust.

Is it environmentally induced?  Trauma is a product of the environment, yes?

Is it biologically-based?  You can have genes that predispose you to anxiety or depression.  I don't think it takes a stretch of the imagination to suppose that genes can predispose you to PTSD or BPD (if you see it as a product of PTSD).

Is it some combination of all?  Probably, and the distribution of that combination probably varies from case to case.

I CANNOT understand WHY a pwBPD, having achieved marriage with someone who truly DOES love and care for them, who supports them emotionally, who seeks to validate and nurture them in a new and healthy environment -- unlike their original traumatic FOO environment;

Getting married to someone does not resolve a mental disorder no matter what the characteristic of that mental disorder.

Can you love anyone sufficiently to overcome a mental disorder, if the sufferer is in denial of their mental disorder?  I'd say the same thing about an addict, or alcoholic or codependent.

WHY would that pwBPD NOT be able to adjust to their new environment, to their new validation, and -- in effect -- not "normalize" and/or grow "healthy" in the safety and security of their NEW, loving, validating environment?

Because no matter how healthy you are *after* you sustain an mental injury, you still cannot recover, until you recover.  And you cannot recover, if you have spent your entire time running away from that recovery.

Just as we, if we do not take the time to recover from our emotional injury in the aftermath of these kinds of relationship, it would not matter if we "achieved" marriage, we'd still be haunted by the aftermath.  Until we *integrate* our experience the pain and all, we will not move past it.

WHY would mutual love, in theory, NOT have the power to help a pwBPD "cure" themselves -- even when the BPD fully acknowledges their problem, acknowledges the love of the SO, and desires to change/no longer be chaotic?

This depends upon what you define as "mutual love."  But if this were truly how the mind works, then psycho-therapy, or all of mental health disciplines would be vastly different from what they are today.

Why cannot all physical ailments not be cured by taking a magic pill?

Why would a secure, powerful, "safe" attachment bond (a loving marriage) NOT help an attachment-disordered person feel attachment?  

If an "attachment-disordered" person never learned how to form an attachment.  How would they know when they actually had a secure, powerful and safe attachment bond?  Since you've learned how to form an attachment, you have no idea what it is like, never having formed one.

It is not unachievable.  But it is not as simple as you suggest.

Best wishes, Schwing

[Cimbaruns]

Great post Swing


Thank you well said

[Wanna Move On]

I am blown away by the quality of responses -- by the combined wisdom, insight, empathy and intelligence. Thank you all!   

The concept I am still viscerally struggling to wrap my mind around is the concept of very early life "preverbal" (possibly even prenatal?) trauma becoming irreversibly wired-in -- not as a verbal [software] "recipe" that can be consciously understood and undone but as an actual, non-verbal/"preverbal" physical [hardware] sensation!

Someone also mentioned that one can be born with genetic vulnerabilities; that one can have biological predispositions that may make her (yes, I am using the female pronoun) especially vulnerable to the devastating effects of both early-life and REPEATED, SUSTAINED childhood/adolescent existential traumas!

Another mentioned the concept of the infant/toddler having to build self-protective "anti-trauma" walls around from the very beginning of her existence -- explaining that those internal "filters" ARE her default filters; that that is all she knows; that she has no other internal frame of references. It was also alluded to that, basically, she was ___ed from the beginning -- possibly as early as prenatal days inside the womb of her BPD mother. (Yes, her mother was BPD and daddy was a highly "respected" High Society incestuous sociopath who completely controlled ALL aspects of her life.)

Furthermore, "I hate you; don't leave me!" was specifically recommended. I know that book is a classic, but is it THAT good? Is it that informative? If so, I will get it and read it.

Finally, a personal note to Schwing: you are THE best! (Not second best --THE best!)

Thanks, all!     

[seeking balance]

Schwing is a rock star!  I would not be where I am w/o Schwing - his insight and his kick in the butt at times 

The word that helped me wrap my head around this the most was - PERCEIVED

The abandonment is real or perceived by a disordered mind.  All the love in the world cannot change someone who has faulty wiring on perceptions.

Great thread!

Peace,

SB

[fromheeltoheal]

The Search for the Real Self by James Masterson is good for a clinical perspective too, addresses the preverbal part which really helped me understand how she's wired.

[charred]

Great responses!

I always have felt that pwBPD are stuck in a loop, they replay  trauma from childhood. Noticed it seemed like no matter what I said, my pwBPD only heard what she wanted to hear (actually didn't want to hear... ) and ignored reality, the present, and me.

Been told that my view that my pwBPD was stuck at emotional level of a 3 yr old was ridiculous... but I was sure of it from how she acted. The explanation that they haven't differentiated from the mother YET... is both enlightening and disturbing... 3yr old may have been generous. Never would have considered that to be the case.

It is pretty easy to forgive a 3 yr old... . they don't know better, they are impulse driven, have no empathy, love to play games and run around. When the 3yr old is an adult, but still acting like a toddler... . it is hard to forgive them and very hard to forgive yourself for mistaking them for the mature adult your eyes and prior experience led you to expect them to be.

Don't know how much predisposition a person has to a PD... . but PD ridden parents are terrible at making a good environment for raising a PD free kid.

Popular ideas and even gadgets add to the issues... . for years Dr. Spock (and others) pushed that parents should get kids to sleep away from their parents, that parents should not give in to the crying and demands of kids... . lest they cry more, and even that a "child should be seen and not heard." Daycare is how two working parent families cope with kids... often as not... and I shudder to think how many kids get marginal responses to their needs because the parent is "just checking my mail" on their phone, or chatting on the computer... versus validating the kid. TV and video games are babysitters... . and in time I think we will have more and more people that are less and less securely attached.

Kids need their parents with them, mother in particular, close bye, for a long time... not only to reassure them, but to help them learn to regulate themselves. When you meet someone that is "really needy"... and clingy... most people are repulsed by them... . it is opposite of what a healthy person wants. Our pwBPD... interpreted something as abandonment... and it shook them up, enough they were developmentally stuck from it.

The havoc and destruction, just in my life, that my pwBPD caused was heartbreaking. There are hundreds of stories each day on bpdfamily.com from pwBPD, we are told about 5% of population is BPD and maybe as much as 15% has some kind of PD. It isn't an organic problem that a pill or vitamin will fix, its a complex problem.

My mother is waif uBPD... . her mother died when she was 5 and she was dumped by her father on her grandparents, left to largely raise her two younger sisters.  That is abandonment... . by her mother and father... and it was not bad parenting. Her mother isn't at fault for dying, her father was drafted in to WW2 ... . also not his fault.  But even with no fault, thats going to hurt.

I understand where the problem came from...  but understanding it doesn't help my mother... . and understanding that having her BPD, makes it likely that I would fall for someone BPD... . didn't help the pain of the breakup and fighting... it just answered all the "why" questions I had enough to let me accept that reality is the way it is, and wishing it were different, wishing my exBPDgf could be the nice sweet dream girl I imagined her to be ... . keeping that kind of hope alive, is what stopped me from moving on.

I dated and then was dumped by my pwBPD... . about 28 yrs ago... and in a sense got stuck myself... . till she came back and corrected my thinking (that she was my dream girl, perfect... . or sane even.)  Accepting them as they are... fully, requires giving up the hope that keeps you rationalizing and making excuses for them,  it requires giving up deluding yourself that things will work out happily ever after with them.

For me it meant accepting that my pwBPD was the person I had treated as an  unconditionally loving mommy-substitute, put on the pedestal of a primary r/s... . had wild sex with... . and then when she turned in to Mr. Hyde... I reacted like a parent died... was depressed and inconsolable. My pwBPD was not to blame... . she was acting like she always does, stuck in her emotional loop. While I wish things were different... . they are not.

[patientandclear]

In my case, I think deep down she just could not believe in it. Whatever happened to her in the past put up too many walls. She fights against the good instead of appreciating it. Her life is built of lies, which makes the truth her enemy. Feeling bad is what she knows. Does she even love herself?

Building on what myself said: in my case, I can see that the anxiety about whether the good might not be real, might go away, might betray, might not be lasting, was unbearable.  Rather a tragic certainty (he used the word tragic many times) than an anxious hope and agonizing ongoing fear of loss and betrayal.

It makes most sense to me when people describe the self-destructive, r/s sabotaging actions of pwBPD as obtaining relief.  They obtain relief from anxiety by starting r/ships, and they obtain relief from anxiety by ending r/ships.  There is always anxiety, and lacking skills to manage it and awareness of the origins of those feelings, they are left with very crude coping skills of impulsive change in hopes that will help.  For a little bit, it does.  pwBPD describe the immense relief they feel when they end a r/s.  For a little bit.  I stuck it out with my ex long enough to see that.  He'd make an impulsive call to change his life radically, and for a little while was very self-assured & self-congratulatory about it; then the doubt crept in; then he needed a new round of certainty about a new change.

[Changingman]

There is also an idea that the egg has difficulty attaching to the womb, and this may have an effect.

Sounded a bit esoteric for my liking, then remembered that both my BPD xs mothers had real issues carrying full term with pregnancy. Both only children, mums had multiple miscarriages.

The hiding is also important, who are they? They are thinking/feeling thighs they won't reveal, sometimes psychotic episodes that you are unaware of. This becomes their reality, and they act out on this confused twisted wrong thinking.

A lack of identity, which leads them to become parasitical to the new object, person and become them to a huge degree. When they feel they have not 'become' this new butterfly and start to feel overtaken by this effort of pretence they become ... . angry

They are empty inside, and this boils up and they try to fill it with... anything, drink, drugs, sex, spending anything that makes the feelings stable or repressed.

A lack of real empathy, therefore they cannot love, not in the way that is any good to you or them. Really they just feel infatuation, which burns out quickly. They have no friends and cannot 'weigh' relationship, so a new 'person' becomes their 'soulmate' only to disappoint later.

Love and pain are confused, intensity is their buzz. Anything to make them 'feel'

Too close push, too far away pull, it's exhausting.

They break everything and cannot repair anything, eventually they have broken so much... . running away from it becomes their only option, hoping to leave it with you... . forever. But it is within them so it starts afresh with the new.

Oh! And they are crazy, really crazy