He says "I feel rejected... "

[empath]

Last night uBPDh and I had a long talk about how he is feeling. It started off with him saying, "I feel rejected by you" and "I'm worried about us". I responded that I was frustrated because any response that I have to him is a "rejection" even positive responses.(we've had similar conversations -- I have mentioned that any response I give is automatically labeled as a negative, even things that most people understand as positive) He said that he didn't feel like I loved him; I said that I do love him. I said that it sounded like he was angry -- he said he wasn't angry, but it really hurts and is painful. I took his hand and said that I was sorry that it was painful for him.

Later in the conversation, he said that everyone has expectations of him and he doesn't feel like he can meet their expectations. He doesn't feel like he can do the things that he does to make himself feel better because of all the various expectations. Some of that is true, he is not able to go out and buy things -- I mentioned that. I didn't mention that he can't quit his job right now, but he said that himself. I said that I had to work, too; he replied that he liked that I was working because then he could be in his "hamster ball" (alone time). I said, but you kinda like me to be in your "hamster ball" too and when I'm working, you don't get to see me as often. He agreed.

The big thing about the talk was that he is not anticipating this feeling that he is experience ever getting better -- because he is undergoing a career change that he believes is going to include this type of feeling and an inability to regulate his emotions in the ways that he has done in the past. He is under a lot of pressure from external sources to be 'responsible' and 'stable', but in reality, these are both areas in which he has struggled. Right now, he is using alcohol to self-medicate and 'deal' with his emotional/mental state, but I cannot bring that up as an issue because he will become defensive (we've been down that road) and that is the only way he thinks he can cope right now.  

When we were talking about the expectations that others have of him, he said he 'had to meet' everyone's expectations. I asked what if he didn't? He said he just had to because 'that's what he does'. He said that he didn't know how to 'fix' the feelings that he is having and he wasn't even sure where the feelings were coming from.

So, my thoughts and a question... .

I wanted to suggest that he talk with a counselor (um, preferably one with a bit more knowledge and insight who might be able to see that this is more than straight up 'depression' -- it is a long term issue). This need to meet everyone's expectations will be detrimental to the career field that he is trying to pursue. There are things that he can do to keep himself healthy, but he feels pressure from others to deny himself those things as well. He has been taking his anti-depressant medication, but it isn't working for these feelings.

If I suggest counseling and the counselor figures out things, there is a possibility of him not being able to pursue this career field for a while. (he probably doesn't know this yet) He has done counseling about 13 years ago for 'depression' with suicidal thoughts. The other issue is that counseling costs money, and we have financial expectations that are being placed on us in relation to this new career field.

So, since he doesn't anticipate these 'feelings' improving and he doesn't know what to do about them (and honestly, I need him to be a bit more self-sufficient in regulating his emotional states), how can I go about bringing up counseling?

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[empath]

I found out that he talked with one of his mentors who suggested he talk with a small group of people who he has been involved with previously. At least, he is trying to take steps to help himself deal with his emotions. I'm not sure how much these people are going to be able to really help him with the fundamental issues that he is having or how much he will be able to describe what is really happening inside his head.

[an0ught]

Hi empath,

you are touching on an important and complex topic here.

When we were talking about the expectations that others have of him, he said he 'had to meet' everyone's expectations. I asked what if he didn't? He said he just had to because 'that's what he does'. He said that he didn't know how to 'fix' the feelings that he is having and he wasn't even sure where the feelings were coming from.

So, my thoughts and a question... .

I wanted to suggest that he talk with a counselor (um, preferably one with a bit more knowledge and insight who might be able to see that this is more than straight up 'depression' -- it is a long term issue). This need to meet everyone's expectations will be detrimental to the career field that he is trying to pursue. There are things that he can do to keep himself healthy, but he feels pressure from others to deny himself those things as well. He has been taking his anti-depressant medication, but it isn't working for these feelings.

If I suggest counseling and the counselor figures out things, there is a possibility of him not being able to pursue this career field for a while. (he probably doesn't know this yet) He has done counseling about 13 years ago for 'depression' with suicidal thoughts. The other issue is that counseling costs money, and we have financial expectations that are being placed on us in relation to this new career field.

So, since he doesn't anticipate these 'feelings' improving and he doesn't know what to do about them (and honestly, I need him to be a bit more self-sufficient in regulating his emotional states), how can I go about bringing up counseling?

PwBPD often have weak boundaries. It is not always obvious as there can be a lot of aggressive pushing but that is just the symptom of not feeling safe within their boundaries. With a bigger job and being responsible for more stuff of course the risks of overload are very real and the ability to deal with overload are not much developed. A new job can be daunting and you don't want to let anyone down. There are now more conflicts you have to deal with and that is tough. It would be great if you had a neutral third party (i.e. not from the company) to whom you had a standing relationship, to whom you could talk when overloaded and who can help you working through decisions. <-- may be a way to sell it. Lining up some support (you may don't need it but it is only proper planning and you will feel stronger) would be best.

Helping your H yourself is a delicate matter. Getting too deeply involved in his matters would be crossing boundaries, taking his responsibility and a more enmeshed relationship. On the other hand you are a third party here and may be able to do some coaching (like you did " I asked what if he didn't?" or asking questions clarifying responsibilities). And there is an argument to be made that you have even the responsibility to work with him on boundaries as work issues flooding in are also impacting you as a couple - the boundaries of your married life vs. his job demands are genuinely 50% your responsibility.

Depending on how your H is learning a book on boundaries may also be an option (although most pwBPD benefit a lot more from doing than reading).

[maxen]

hi empath. i had experiences like this in my marriage, not identical but the gist was the same:

Last night uBPDh and I had a long talk about how he is feeling. It started off with him saying, "I feel rejected by you" and "I'm worried about us". I responded that I was frustrated because any response that I have to him is a "rejection" even positive responses.(we've had similar conversations -- I have mentioned that any response I give is automatically labeled as a negative, even things that most people understand as positive).

(also the bit about alcohol and defensiveness.)

in fact, she was still saying these things even after she left, though we had been through them time and again in the marriage (we're starting divorce).

part of it may be as anought says:

PwBPD often have weak boundaries.

i know that my stbxw took even the slightest opinion of mine as an order that she had to follow, with resentment following as she felt she was being compelled. (but i think there's more. depending on the severity of the condition, it varies from hard to impossible for a pwBPD to feel loved. my w was forever looking for ways to feel hurt, then said that she "didn't feel cherished" by me.)

so i see that you are in a hard spot with how to suggest counseling to your h. would you be willing to go with him?

[empath]

Depending on how your H is learning a book on boundaries may also be an option (although most pwBPD benefit a lot more from doing than reading).

He is very good with learning from books. In fact, he has read at least one book on boundaries. However, I think it is difficult for him to understand the concept because he really doesn't have a sense of himself. Lately, he has been having what he calls "stress dreams" in which he is doing a job (different ones that he has done in the past or the new one) and things that are out of his control happen. He feels "stress" because these things that happen in his dream prevent him from doing his job -- or he is confronted with one of his phobias. When I ask him why it is stressful for him, he says that he can't disappoint people and they are disappointed in him (because of the things that he can't control).

We were talking last night about an incident in the old past that he has 'regrets' about. He described it as 'disappointing' someone. In that situation, I was involved and had been giving him warnings about his actions as well as a better way to act. He was also receiving advice from another person that went against my advice. He chose poorly because he wanted to not 'disappoint' this other person who was giving him advice.

He described a conversation that he had with one of his work friends about one of the things that he was doing. He said he mentioned that he was really nervous about doing this thing because he is worried about something going wrong. When he was telling me about the conversation, the theme of disappointing other people came up again.

In my own mind, I cannot imagine how much energy it would take to go through life like that -- being dependent on the approval of others and knowing that someone will always be disappointed. When I try to insert reality, like 'you can't control everything', he rejects those; he has to have everyone's approval.

Maybe I should try pointing out that he sounds like he is dealing with anxiety rather than 'depression'. I've mentioned before to him that he 'can't do what he usually does to help himself feel better' which seemed to go okay.

[an0ught]

Yeah, reading is not doing. Dabbling in validation is possible - every little helps - getting it wrong may trigger but triggering is our daily life. Dabbling in boundaries is not so effective - they take focus and need to be established one at a time and doing them wrong can do major damage. Without thinking through the consequences for ourselves it is hard to stand our ground. Without being mentally prepared for an extinction burst we risk being swept from our feet.

In my own mind, I cannot imagine how much energy it would take to go through life like that -- being dependent on the approval of others and knowing that someone will always be disappointed. When I try to insert reality, like 'you can't control everything', he rejects those; he has to have everyone's approval.

This may be a bit controlling and invalidating and is thus rejected. Validating would be: "You try to get this 100% right.". You can't regulate his desire of perfection down - only he can - once he realizes what he does. He needs time to get his head around that now imperfection is the new normal. He may need a few failures in perfection to get there. He can only do his best but has to accept that the results are what they are. Here is where support vs. enabling comes in. Helping him achieve perfection could be enabling. Supporting him through recovering from the disappointment would be support.

[Mike76]

I recently asked for a divorce... .   (I do know this is the staying board, but I have made not progress forward yet).

After asking for the divorce has caused my wife to do a 180 degree... . I realize this is most likely only temporary, but it has enable several conversations.   

After my dBPDw apologized for some of the abusive... I was able to ask... . "Why did you say and do the mean things to me?"   What my dBPDw wife responds back to me is the following... .   " I have felt rejected my entire life even as a kid... . during my childhood people made me feel rejected... . So I felt it was ok to treat you way I have and did"

I feel rejected so I am going to make you feel rejected... .

[empath]

Validating would be: "You try to get this 100% right.". You can't regulate his desire of perfection down - only he can - once he realizes what he does. He needs time to get his head around that now imperfection is the new normal. He may need a few failures in perfection to get there.

I had already said "you feel like everything has to go right and everyone has to feel good.' He has had many 'failures' (or things that he thinks of as failures) which he thinks of as examples of times when he should have tried harder. Imperfection is not 'normal' in his mind; it is bad and means that he is a bad person. He even knows that he does this; he is just stuck there. His stress comes from not being able to control everything; that's the theme of the dreams that he has been having.

We had a discussion in the recent past about one of my job activities. He was giving me advice and communicating his own stress about how things should go. I could feel my stress level and anxiety increasing. During the conversation, I mentioned the idea that there were things that I couldn't control about this activity. He rejected that idea as well. Then I nicely thanked him for his input. 

I'm not going to 'help' him achieve perfection; although, some of the 'failures' were because he chose not to listen to my advice. I usually get quiet when he mentions these times because they are hurtful for me; I had to deal with consequences of these 'failures' as well.

[empath]

I feel rejected so I am going to make you feel rejected... .

Or I feel rejected so I'm going to reject you... .    

[maxen]

I feel rejected so I am going to make you feel rejected... .

Or I feel rejected so I'm going to reject you... .    

during the Final hour my stbxw said 1: "i didn't feel cherished" and 2: "i always thought you would be the one to leave."