Any validity to this?

[Wanna Move On]

Hello, everybody.   

I was surfing the the web earlier this evening, looking at articles pertaining to BPD. I stumbled onto a blog written by some psychiatrist named Dr. William Hay, based in Canada.

He boastfully claims (in a sloppily written blog, posted a little after 3AM, on October 14, 2009) that he has worked with BPD patients all his life, and that he "has seen so many 'successful resolutions'." (All of these "successful" results were supposedly created through his uniquely skilled and insightful therapeutic work.)

Is this guy for real, or is he a quack? I have done extensive reading on BPD and have NEVER heard of this guy.     

If he was so uniquely skilled, or if he had created so unique a form of BPD therapy that produced so many "successful resolutions" (and posted it in his blog space 4-years-and-three-months-ago!), then why is he and his work not well known?

Has anybody ever heard of him and his supposed work, or is he a blog posting fraud?       

[santa]

I'm pretty skeptical.

I've done quite a bit of research on the issue and the consensus is that BPD people are hopeless as far as relationships go.

I know they can have somewhat normal lives if they keep to themselves. As soon as they fall in love though, it's game over. They can't handle relationships without serious symptoms surfacing.

[Turkish]

Id wager that those of us in LTRs with BPDs are probably qualified more than this guy to boast about success stories.

[Perfidy]

So you made a note of the time when it was posted why? Mmmmm hmmm... . DRUNK! A preformed opinion. Shoot...

[Lady31]

My sister is a psychiatrist.  She is only a few years out of med school but has worked with patients admitted on an emergency basis for all types of mental illness (many BPD) & also in clinic setting.  She was in top of her class - works with very good and well respected Doctors and she asked me point blank where I was getting my information from when I would relay much of the opinions presented on this site.

She told me from what she has seen so far and has been counseled by her mentors is that that is not true.  That there are many people who suffer with BPD who can and do make great progress.  Of course, it is dependent on many factors including how functioning they are - and yes that have to be willing to get help and stick with it - BUT it is not anywhere near this unbreakable hopeless curse of a life that is presented here.

I believe that.  People don't fall in hard molds - there are many shades.  Human beings were created with astounding capabilities - and we do have an all powerful God.

No, BPD is absolutely NOT hopeless - and I think it ridiculous to think so.  However - you have to take that with balance and the understanding that the people suffering are 100% responsible for themselves and it is totally in their court if/when/how they get help... . and whether or not they CONTINUE to do so.

[Lady31]

Furthermore - I think a big problem we can get stuck on is the whether or not there is hope for the BPD to get better.  As, if we are convinced that there is no fixing them and absolutely no hope they can get better - it helps us with our codependent traits to actually accept it and try to start to let the relationship go.

The SECRET in this is that it DOES NOT HINGE on whether there is hope for the BPD to recover.  The decision to stay in or get out of the relationship should not hinge on this - it should hinge I believe on the ACTIONS of the BPD to GET the help.

So - even if there IS hope they can get better - if they are not doing anything about it - why are we still letting them abuse us, etc.?

If you are married to a spouse who is a serial cheater, can they get help and heal whatever wounds they have and learn to be in a committed relationship?  Of course can.  But is the fact that they CAN recover and change enough to keep you in a toxic situation?  I would hope NO.

In the end - it doesn't matter so much in figuring out if they can be cured or not.  I wouldn't be worrying about that unless they were actually ATTEMPTING to with any serious commitment.

Most of the SOs with BPD on this site do not sound like they are attempting to - so then, again, back to the crux of the matter - who cares.

Of course they can't get better if they aren't even trying to ON THEIR OWN.

[santa]

I think your sister may be looking at this through rose colored glasses a little bit. I know a lot of brilliant people think there's a fix for everything. Theoretically, maybe there is. As far as these BPD people go, I don't see it though.

Has she ever lived with a BPD? It's an entirely different universe than just seeing them for an hour occasionally.  

[santa]

Furthermore, I find what you said about us using BPD as a crutch to make getting over the breakup easier a bit insulting.

There is subjective impossibility and then there's objective impossibility. Subjective means "you couldn't do it" and it's not an excuse for liability. Objective means "nobody could do it" and it is an excuse. I honestly believe that having a successful and healthy relationship with a BPD is objectively impossible. Nobody can do it. No matter what they do. It just can't be done.

Now, people can stay in horrible marriages and pretend they're fine. I'm sure plenty of that goes on. I know that in every one of those relationships though, there's a non who's miserable.

It's not worth it to fall on the sword and ruin your own life just to cater to some psycho forever hoping they'll see the light one day. Why be a martyr when the person you're with doesn't care anyway? What's the point of that?

They should just find an island somewhere and put all these BPDs there so they'll stop bothering decent people.

[myself]

hoping they'll see the light one day

They've seen the light. They turn away.

[santa]

hoping they'll see the light one day

They've seen the light. They turn away.

Exactly. You can't make life good for them. They don't want a good life. They want chaos. You can do everything in the world to give them exactly what they want and all the peace and joy that comes with it and they will literally destroy it on purpose just to give themselves some excitement. They have to have chaos. It's the only thing that makes them comfortable. And if you aren't willing to do that with them, they don't want to play any more.

[Learning_curve74]

There is subjective impossibility and then there's objective impossibility. Subjective means "you couldn't do it" and it's not an excuse for liability. Objective means "nobody could do it" and it is an excuse. I honestly believe that having a successful and healthy relationship with a BPD is objectively impossible. Nobody can do it. No matter what they do. It just can't be done.

I understand where you're coming from, especially if most of the BPD stories you hear about are here on the leaving board. Many high functioning borderlines don't have enough incentive to change or adapt enough to have long lasting and healthy relationships.

However, I do feel that saying it's impossible to have a successful relationship with a pwBPD is very black and white thinking. There IS a sticky topic at the top of the staying board titled SUCCESS STORIES.

There is also the bias that people on the boards here are in relationships that are often failing or DOA. If somebody was in a successful relationship, there is not much need to come here for support, so we probably do not hear the positive stories very often on the boards.

[strikeforce]

Saying that BPD is not curable or gets worse is an easy way to help us detach.

I'm guessing a lot of people on here are scared that their BPD ex will meet someone and make it work and get better.

How long does the various types of therapy take to be 'successful'? What is the measurement of success?

First off they need to want to get help and get better. But even if they do what studies are there to show that the therapy helps with intimate relationships?

[mitchell16]

this is a very interesting topic. Im not an expert on BPD nor would claim to be. I can only explain or commment from my own experience. I dont now if a relationship could work with BPD, i do beleive that if the BPD person gets therapy can live somewhat a a normal life and possible have a successful relation but that is a big if. I could have stayed in my relationship with my exBPD, still could have her back. shes been steady throwing out the lines about every 3 weeks, Im just not biting anymore. BUt yes, I could have made it work if I did the following, have no opinion of my own, put up with her insulting me, raging at me, always coming last, been at her complete beck and call, have no needs for myself, have no sickness of my own, lose every ounce of my self esteem, self respect, let her have an affair anytime she wanted to and when that failed to pan out to be what she thought she wanted be waiting for her to come back with open arms. yes, I could have made it work.

Of course at the end of all that I would probably been a lifeless slug, without a bit of self esteem and such a lack of respect for myself I would hated to look in my mirror everyday. My ex once told me she had been treatment all her life and it hasnt worked on her yet. she to my knowlegde was never official diagnosed with BPD, but all the symptoms match, our therapist the few session she attended said he beleived she was. based on what I had told him and what little he observed.

and by the way I tried to do all the things she required and then she had no respect for me at all and would still break up and walk away. so its been my experience even giving them exactly what the want, they still cant be happy for any sustained length of time. Mine was married for 13 years, I can only imagaine what the poor sole went thru, by her own admission she had 4 affairs on him and in my opinion was probably more that she didnt tell about and he never knew. two while dating and 2 while married. Once attmepted suicide because he refused to change jobs for her. and that the things i knew about. she once told me after they divorced she begged him to get back together and that he loved her so much that he didnt want the divorce, and he refused. when I thought about it,  I thought to myself what man who didnt want to get divorced in the first place wouldnt want to put his family back togther. I relized a man that had enough and said no more. he got way from it and decided he never wanted it anymore, because he had enough, he couldnt win, he couldnt make her happy. i guess what im trying to say is, she was with him for 13 years, they attended therapy, he gave over to her every whim and put up with alot of crap and in the end he still had to get out because she still couldnt be fixed or make it work. and it was destroying him and his child. another interesting twist was she had custody of their child and she raised him until about 12 years old and the child then wanted to go live with his father.

[Turkish]

another interesting twist was she had custody of their child and she raised him until about 12 years old and the child then wanted to go live with his father.

I'm studying the article on the effect of Borderline mothers on their children and frankly it frightens me, because I have two children with mine. She is high functioning, but I see the devaluation, mostly of S4. It is subtle now and then, but it is there. She thinks this is mostly me (she takes responsibility like a politician... . keeps doing what she is doing... . like a little kid). I get stuck in the FOG sometimes, but then I look on how she treats her brothers as well. She alternates between loving them to death, but she also has no mercy for "failure." She has r/s problems with everyone in her family, almost. The ones she doesn't she talks to, but doesn't really have that r/s I would think siblings should have. The only really close one she has is with her mother. She loves our kids to death (finally... . after 8 mos of teen mom behavior), and I like seeing it, but I know that will change. She takes her anger out on everyone when she gets triggered. Everyone.

[Perfidy]

All that... Now throw in drug addiction. Meth. Who has time for that?

[Changingman]

Saying that BPD is not curable or gets worse is an easy way to help us detach.

I'm guessing a lot of people on here are scared that their BPD ex will meet someone and make it work and get better.

How long does the various types of therapy take to be 'successful'? What is the measurement of success?

First off they need to want to get help and get better. But even if they do what studies are there to show that the therapy helps with intimate relationships?

Absolutely,

BUT I suspect knowing my ex and my ex ex and my mother this becomes hardwired, Jesus even with healthy people life and culture are hard.

What are the parameters of recovery

They are only hurting/abusing one person instead of six

Their are 'coasting' until the next episode

Seven plus years of s*** while they 'recover'. I'm a father and I would spend the rest of my life getting my D/S well. I have all the time and love for that.

I have warned my son about these demons. I would kidnap him to save him. It is not his responsibility to save a woman from her FOO, it's theirs. Really her's.

So where does that leave us?

No son

How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?

The lightbulb has to want to change itself

[Turkish]

How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?

The lightbulb has to want to change itself

Mine wants to, but her Love Addiction always wins. I found stuff she wrote about her last LTR, and it was the same thing. The stuff she's written about our r/s: same thing. She says she's aware of her issues now. So what? She's still the same person emotionally. When she starts to feel better, she will stop therapy. That's her pattern. and I suspect it will ever be.

[Bulgakov]

I think both the DSM and ICD (or whatever it is called) explain that BPD can get better, and in many cases it gets better with age just through contact with more stable people who don't abandon them at the first sign of trouble. Also, DBT and schema therapy have shown results. I think a big problem we have, is that we are so emotionally intertwined in this vicious cycle that we cannot validate the way an outsider would be able to. Validating mine makes me sick to my stomach. Someone with no emotional investment would find it much easier to validate.

It is understandable why our perspectives make us think it is incurable. I'm sure in many cases there is not much hope. And indeed, it can take 1-10 years for therapy to make a difference; sometimes more sometimes less. Obviously comorbid traits are going to make things more complicated. For instance mine is becoming more and more narcissistic. I recently scored her (while trying to be liberal, mind you) very high on a psychopathic check list. Lets just say if she lived in the UK she could be diagnosed as a psychopath as their criteria requires like 5 less points than in the USA. I would describe her as cluster B, more specifically N/BPD, but the fact that I could score her b/w 25 and 30 on the psycho check list is a bit scary, and gives me less hope of making anything better. I would hope we could be friends in the future, but I can't continue to support her emotionally with what I have seen her do during our time together.

[Pearl55]

Probably he was drunk when he wrote it! There is NO cure for BPD!

The full blown borderline splits the mind off from the body and feelings. She may be very analytical, further cutting off from feelings. Automatically going to the head reinforces the non-feeling self.

I've learnt a lot from this and proved to me that their brains are very different.

[Pearl55]

Wanna move on

My husband is a psychiatrist himself I think you can guess if is curable or not!

[Turkish]

I think both the DSM and ICD (or whatever it is called) explain that BPD can get better, and in many cases it gets better with age just through contact with more stable people who don't abandon them at the first sign of trouble. Also, DBT and schema therapy have shown results. I think a big problem we have, is that we are so emotionally intertwined in this vicious cycle that we cannot validate the way an outsider would be able to. Validating mine makes me sick to my stomach. Someone with no emotional investment would find it much easier to validate.

It is understandable why our perspectives make us think it is incurable. I'm sure in many cases there is not much hope. And indeed, it can take 1-10 years for therapy to make a difference; sometimes more sometimes less. Obviously comorbid traits are going to make things more complicated. For instance mine is becoming more and more narcissistic. I recently scored her (while trying to be liberal, mind you) very high on a psychopathic check list. Lets just say if she lived in the UK she could be diagnosed as a psychopath as their criteria requires like 5 less points than in the USA. I would describe her as cluster B, more specifically N/BPD, but the fact that I could score her b/w 25 and 30 on the psycho check list is a bit scary, and gives me less hope of making anything better. I would hope we could be friends in the future, but I can't continue to support her emotionally with what I have seen her do during our time together.

That is interesting.  could you provide a link to this test?  thanks... .

[Pearl55]

Lady31

How many case studies your sister is able to prove to us?

[Bulgakov]

Turkish

Check out Hare's PCL-R. The wikipedia article on 'psychopathy' actually has the checklist items listed as well as how to score it. I'm not gonna pretend this is the all out criteria for psychopathy. There are certainly other checklists, but most of them overlap in the more crucial areas. The DSM and ICD actually just list antisocial and dissocial personality disorders (which are cluster B along with BPD in the DSM) claiming that some of the patients with these disorders will be psychopaths, with others not meeting certain criteria. What leads me to look into psychopathy is that my stbexBPD has displayed some serious manipulative game playing with other people, such as at work, and is very elated when 'she wins'.

[Wanna Move On]

Hey, everyone: 

While I am enormously appreciative of all the responses this thread (subject? posting? What is the correct term?) has generated , I wish more people would have responded to the initial question.

I know the Internet is flooded with crackpots/frauds/quacks -- and I am especially skeptical of doctors/PhDs who post sloppily written articles, on their own obscure blogs a little after 3AM, claiming counterfactual "successful resolutions" to an intractable problems.   

In that context, I wish I could have gotten more feedback vis-a-vis a ":)r. William Hay" from Ontario, Canada. If he is so uniquely talented and has developed such "successful" techniques (YEARS AGO!), then why is there ZERO mention of him in scientific or professional journals?

I know that my obvious skepticism is built into the questioning, but I actually wished one or two people would have Googled the great ":)r. William Hay," and provided some feedback.

Well, anyway, I hope everybody "Out There" is well.   

WMO

[Bulgakov]

I have been trying to look into him with little luck. His blog doesn't seem to want to load on my computer. I guess in a side tracked kind of way, I was agreeing with him that BPD is curable. But, they do have to want it and comorbidity can complicate things further. To my knowledge DBT is the standard for the treatment of BPD and though I have not read much about it, I have heard it works if they are willing.

Ph.D.'s in Clinical Psychology often publish and do research as well as clinical stuff. Depending on what kind of doctorate he has, research may not be a requirement of his position. Some only do clinical work for example (Psy.D. instead of Ph.D.). It is hard for me to say without reading more into him (whenever my computer decides that is alright), but there are always quacks out there. Some researchers and doctors seem to start programs very similar to those of other researchers and doctors. Sometimes things are simply worded differently but it is the same concept.

It does look like he is on the psychiatry end of things. I think a professor of mine mentioned that psychodynamic (newer psychoanalysis) is not as helpful as DBT. But he does mention group therapy, a part of DBT. I breezed through the blog post a bit (thanks computer) and I didn't see anything too quacky. Seemed like more of an opinion post. We shouldn't discount him immediately, but we should never believe what we read immediately. That last line was not at all supposed to sound condescending by the way.