Finally told him I want a divorce

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Yesterday morning I told my H that I want a divorce.  Below is the update I posted on the Legal board, but I thought I would get some more responses if I post on this board... . I really need advice/help/moral support, etc... .

The conversation went on for FOUR HOURS... .

This happened exactly as I thought it would.

I drove around for 30 minutes trying to get up the courage to go back home to talk to him.  Got home, he wasn't there so I called him and told him I needed to talk to him so he came back home.

I told him I want a divorce.  He immediately replied NO!  Then came the begging, crying, negotiating, telling me we can be better, that he will not agree to this, that he acknowledges that he has problems and needs to work on them, that he needs to give me space to figure "me" out, that we need to rebuild intimacy, acknowledging that we never talk and that we need to be better about that.

Irritated that I saw a lawyer, but not mad.  Did not show any signs of anger whatsoever.  Just extreme desperation and sadness.

**SIGH**

We talked for FOUR hours.

He said he does not agree with this and that I am wrong.  He says that we can/should get couples counseling and really WORK on our issues "this" time instead of the half-ass effort we gave it the "last" time.  He is not going to give up on me.  He has known that since the day he met me that I was the one for him.  I am his "queen".  He does not see divorce as an option, at all, ever.  He will go to counseling with me.  He will sleep in another bed if I need him to.  He loves me with all of his heart.  He lives for me and the kids... . we are his entire world.

I was as honest as I could be but not as much as I should have been... . WHY is that?  I told him from the beginning of the discussion that there would be no changing my mind, that I have decided what I want to do and am not willing to try and work on this marriage anymore.  I told him that we have been in this "place" so many times before that I already know what the outcome will be... . we will try really hard to make things better and then we will both fall in to old habits.  I told him that I am emotionally dead, that I am not able to be a wife to him or anyone else for that matter.  I laid it all on the table.  The problem is that as soon as he started showing his emotions I felt myself starting to cave.  I told him that I heard everything he said and that I had a lot to think about.  He says he doesn't believe me, that he thinks I'm just telling him that to appease him and then am going to come back in a couple of days and say that I'm done.  And, instead of just holding my ground I tell him I'm not appeasing him and that I really will think about it.  What the heck is wrong with me?

I feel like I am going to be stuck in this marriage forever.  I am in my office at work now.  I kept my cool while talking to him, but lost it as soon as I got in the car and bawled all the way to work.

I haven't moved the money yet.  Why?  I guess because I am trying to spare his feelings and not make it look like I'm TOO far along in this process.  Again, why?  Because I am trying to keep him on my good side and not put him on the defensive.  Heck, he even agreed to move the money over to my account and I told him he didn't need to.  I am flipping crazy, there is no other possible explanation.  I hate myself right now.

[nevaeh]

Yesterday morning I told my H that I want a divorce.  Below is the update I posted on the Legal board, but I thought I would get some more responses if I post on this board... . I really need advice/help/moral support, etc... .

The conversation went on for FOUR HOURS... .

This happened exactly as I thought it would.

I drove around for 30 minutes trying to get up the courage to go back home to talk to him.  Got home, he wasn't there so I called him and told him I needed to talk to him so he came back home.

I told him I want a divorce.  He immediately replied NO!  Then came the begging, crying, negotiating, telling me we can be better, that he will not agree to this, that he acknowledges that he has problems and needs to work on them, that he needs to give me space to figure "me" out, that we need to rebuild intimacy, acknowledging that we never talk and that we need to be better about that.

Irritated that I saw a lawyer, but not mad.  Did not show any signs of anger whatsoever.  Just extreme desperation and sadness.

**SIGH**

We talked for FOUR hours.

He said he does not agree with this and that I am wrong.  He says that we can/should get couples counseling and really WORK on our issues "this" time instead of the half-ass effort we gave it the "last" time.  He is not going to give up on me.  He has known that since the day he met me that I was the one for him.  I am his "queen".  He does not see divorce as an option, at all, ever.  He will go to counseling with me.  He will sleep in another bed if I need him to.  He loves me with all of his heart.  He lives for me and the kids... . we are his entire world.

I was as honest as I could be but not as much as I should have been... . WHY is that?  I told him from the beginning of the discussion that there would be no changing my mind, that I have decided what I want to do and am not willing to try and work on this marriage anymore.  I told him that we have been in this "place" so many times before that I already know what the outcome will be... . we will try really hard to make things better and then we will both fall in to old habits.  I told him that I am emotionally dead, that I am not able to be a wife to him or anyone else for that matter.  I laid it all on the table.  The problem is that as soon as he started showing his emotions I felt myself starting to cave.  I told him that I heard everything he said and that I had a lot to think about.  He says he doesn't believe me, that he thinks I'm just telling him that to appease him and then am going to come back in a couple of days and say that I'm done.  And, instead of just holding my ground I tell him I'm not appeasing him and that I really will think about it.  What the heck is wrong with me?

I feel like I am going to be stuck in this marriage forever.  I am in my office at work now.  I kept my cool while talking to him, but lost it as soon as I got in the car and bawled all the way to work.

I haven't moved the money yet.  Why?  I guess because I am trying to spare his feelings and not make it look like I'm TOO far along in this process.  Again, why?  Because I am trying to keep him on my good side and not put him on the defensive.  Heck, he even agreed to move the money over to my account and I told him he didn't need to.  I am flipping crazy, there is no other possible explanation.  I hate myself right now.

[Surnia]

Speaking about divorce and sticking with it is such a hard moment! 

I think its important for you and for him that you follow with some actions. Actions speaks louder than words.

Do you have any idea what keeps you back doing so? Is it real fear he could get physical?

Or is it more about you? Being "not allowed" standing up for your needs?

Fear about making it at your own?

[nevaeh]

I went in to work yesterday afternoon to escape him.  I got home around 6:45 and immediately he was clinging to me, crying, telling me how sad he is, etc.  Constantly wanting to hug or touch me in some way.  Insisting that we can fix this.

I reiterated last night that I went into the conversation yesterday morning 100% sure that I wanted a divorce.  After our 4-hour conversation I would say 95% sure.  I told him that he needs to understand that I don't know if I am capable of trying.

This morning he apparently was up at 4 am.  I am concerned that he may have taken my office keys and gone to my office to snoop around. He did this the last time I told him I wanted a divorce about 4 years ago.  Our building has security cameras so I am going to find out and if he did, there will be no more of this easing him into it.  If he did go there he would have found everything... . new bank acct information, divorce papers... . everything.  He left to go run errands a bit ago saying that he is just really upset and can't talk right now.

Someone commented on my other post that he sounds like a waif... . I'm afraid I didn't know what that was until that comment was made.  I did a quick search on the forum and found that he does fit him.

So... . question is... . how in the heck do you break it off with a waif?

He is making all kinds of promises (which I am NOT surprised about at all).  It feels horrible to me that he is so upset and I knew this was coming.  I am trying really hard not to give him false hope.

Again, I knew this would happen.  I have an appointment with my counselor on Wednesday and I told H that I needed to work through my thoughts with her.  I also told him that I need space from him which I know is killing him because he just wants to talk and talk and talk and lay around "holding" me.  I won't let that happen.  I feel suffocated and manipulated.

[Monarch Butterfly]

I told him I want a divorce.

Congratulations! After I finally got the guts to tell him I slept better than I had in years! When I told him I was shaking. Since then I feel so light and free... . 



He immediately replied NO!

Same here... .  He is still in denial, acting like everything is going to work out. I have come to the point that denial is better than splitting black. I keep reminding him every know and then and he says that I'll change my mind.



Then came the begging, crying, negotiating, telling me we can be better, that he will not agree to this, that he acknowledges that he has problems and needs to work on them, that he needs to give me space to figure "me" out, that we need to rebuild intimacy, acknowledging that we never talk and that we need to be better about that.

I went through the same... .  He said I did not have permission to leave me. I kind of laughed when he said that, and he took it back as soon as he realized what he had said.

He said he does not agree with this and that I am wrong.  He says that we can/should get couples counseling and really WORK on our issues "this" time instead of the half-ass effort we gave it the "last" time.

Oh God, I got the same speech... .  He is even going to counseling but he's working on how to become a more sociable person. He thinks that's the problem. I told him he has deeper issues, but he wont listen.

He will sleep in another bed if I need him to.

  Mine did for two weeks! Then he moved back in our bed.  He loves me with all of his heart.  He lives for me and the kids... .  we are his entire world.

Mine said he could live without friends, without his parents, but just not without me. I was his safe place, his support, his life... .   I do realize what my leaving is going to do to him, but I wish he realized what he was doing to me first. Bummer... . 

  And, instead of just holding my ground I tell him I'm not appeasing him and that I really will think about it.   

I thought the same thing... .  I had all the things jotted down to say but didn`t say half of what I meant to. It came horribly unplanned and a bit over the edge. Kind of like f**** off. Anyway, I'm glad I said it that way, because he got the point and it saved me hours.



What the heck is wrong with me?

Nothing... .  don't beat yourself up. It's hard enough to say bye to a boyfriend, much worse to break apart a marriage. Don't expect the conversation to be easy or the way to planned.  I said I still wanted a divorce but would stay here until house payments we done. UGH!    Why did I say that! So here I am, counting the months to go by.

But nothing is wrong with you. That is what a pwBPD wants you to feel and they are pretty good at doing that.

I hate myself right now.

Don't. You are hurting and it is normal. Heck, I cant seem to pick up the phone and call a lawyer, so you're way ahead of me. Just go slow. Don't expect to resolve all the issues in one conversation. This will take a while to sink in and if you go one issue at a time it will be better than having all the little odds and inns in one hard draining conversation.

Feel proud of what you did accomplish! Not of what you should have done and didn't get around to doing.

[nevaeh]

Speaking about divorce and sticking with it is such a hard moment! 

I think its important for you and for him that you follow with some actions. Actions speaks louder than words.

Do you have any idea what keeps you back doing so? Is it real fear he could get physical?

Or is it more about you? Being "not allowed" standing up for your needs?

Fear about making it at your own?

That is a good question.  Honestly, the only reason this is working is because he seems SO genuine!  And I guess he is.  The crying is awful!  I acknowledged that I realize that if I divorce him that he will lose everything in one fell swoop.  He said he won't have a purpose if I leave him.  All of that stuff just pulls at my heart because I don't want to hurt him.  I have told him that he is asking me to ignore a lifetime of hurt to give him another chance, even though he's had hundreds of chances before.  He of course said this time will be different, that we will work harder.  I told him I don't think I have anything left in the tank to work on it at all, and that is the truth.  So he is basically asking me to do something that is impossible for me to do, just because he is upset.

I foresee that in the next several days I am going to have to tell him that if he loves me he needs to let me go.  He will not agree to this divorce.  I have even told him a few times that maybe he should go talk to a lawyer to see what he should be doing given his circumstances.  He doesn't want to do that.  He is upset that I have seen a lawyer without telling him.  I explained that I didn't know what his response would be so I had to plan ahead.  He says now that he won't fight me on anything.  But at some point he is going to get angry about this and then all bets are off.  

I knew that I wouldn't  be able to be around him once I told him.  I was right.  In retrospect, the reason I wanted to move out without him knowing wasn't because I was afraid of him getting physical, but because of this, the emotional breakdown that I am being forced to witness.  He knows he has anger management issues.  He says he will go to counseling and that maybe the kids should be part of that.  He says he will be more "open" to me calling him out when he starts being a jerk.  I told him that's impossible because when he's in the middle of a rage there is absolutely no stopping him.

I want out of this marriage.  I have to stay strong and make this happen.  I cannot give in to this emotional blackmail.

[Monarch Butterfly]

He is making all kinds of promises (which I am NOT surprised about at all).  It feels horrible to me that he is so upset and I knew this was coming.  I am trying really hard not to give him false hope.

I feel suffocated and manipulated.

Mine made huge promises and some of them he is keeping. But I just cant go back to where I was. I need out for my own good.

He did go into this horrible phase for 2 weeks where the truth was accepted, but he was very hostile towards me. He painted me black and man I got he short end of the stick. He raged and gave me silent treatment and afterwards confessed that he was very suicidal during those weeks. But then, after two weeks had passed, he decided to make his own truth. Now he loves me. In his mind he can either hate me or love me, so he has decided to love me. It disturbs the crap out of me. Since I have to live here (not by wish, but by finances) I'd prefer we get along. He cant do that. It's either love or hate. It's very very odd.

But I do keep telling him that I am leaving at the end of the house payments. He rolls his eyes and shruggs his shoulders like, yeah, right.

I'm so gone baby... .  checking out day by day. One day he'll understand.

[nevaeh]

Wow, Monarch, thanks for sharing your story!  Our stories are so similar and i guess it gives me comfort to know I'm not the only one.  

In a weird way his desperation is helping me with knowing I am making the right decision.

I  did tell him yesterday that he was reacting exactly as I thought he would... . because we have been down this road before.  So, his reaction was actually just confirming for me that I am making the right decision.  I told him I have wanted to leave him for at least 10 years, maybe more, but that I stayed in part because of the kids, but also in large part because I didn't want to hurt him.  I told him I HAVE tried  but he says we've never really tried TOGETHER.  That is such crap.  

One thing that is really helping me is that I told so many people what I was doing that I know if I back out now that I will look like a complete fool.  I did that on purpose, knowing that if I told people that it would hold me accountable when this happened.

So right now I'm just riding the storm.  Trying to stay emotionally strong for ME!

[nevaeh]

He is making all kinds of promises (which I am NOT surprised about at all).  It feels horrible to me that he is so upset and I knew this was coming.  I am trying really hard not to give him false hope.

I feel suffocated and manipulated.

Mine made huge promises and some of them he is keeping. But I just cant go back to where I was. I need out for my own good.

He did go into this horrible phase for 2 weeks where the truth was accepted, but he was very hostile towards me. He painted me black and man I got he short end of the stick. He raged and gave me silent treatment and afterwards confessed that he was very suicidal during those weeks. But then, after two weeks had passed, he decided to make his own truth. Now he loves me. In his mind he can either hate me or love me, so he has decided to love me. It disturbs the crap out of me. Since I have to live here (not by wish, but by finances) I'd prefer we get along. He cant do that. It's either love or hate. It's very very odd.

But I do keep telling him that I am leaving at the end of the house payments. He rolls his eyes and shruggs his shoulders like, yeah, right.

I'm so gone baby... .  checking out day by day. One day he'll understand.

How much longer do you have to wait?

[Monarch Butterfly]

How much longer do you have to wait?

Longer, way longer than I'd like. He says 2-3 years.   I'm thinking of moving out anyway, before the payments are done. As in payments, I mean renovation payments. We tore the place up to make it bigger and no one will buy the place the way it is now. As soon as it's done, I'm out.

I'm checking out ways to do that. He cut off my contacts, family, friends, work during these 17 years, so work-wise I have to find a job that can pay for my rent, for one.

He did agree to pay for some further education for me so I can leave without having to flip hamburgers. I appreciate that, but I do recognize it's a way to keep me here too. I'm not sure if it's good to stay that long around someone I don`t love anymore. Because either I'm his lovely wife or I'm satan's accomplice.

Well, I do love him, but I hate what he does and how he acts. The first way I tried to get the truth by was to tell him I didn't love him anymore. Well, he read into that one quickly and in three days was saying that I do love him and listed 100 things I did to prove that statement wrong. He's right. I do love him, but I love myself too and would really like to live a life worth living. I tried to tell him I love him but cant live with him anymore, that didn`t go well either. He just couldnt get it.  If I stay with him I'll be slowly loosing myself... . living the life he wants me to live.

So I had to re-work that statement. I had to get it across to him in a way that made sense to a six year old. I finally came up with married life just pins me down, and after all the neglect, abuse, emotional adultery and hurt and I want to be free. That I dont want to live for anyone else anymore and I just want to be single again. God, how I long to have a long lasting relationship and it was just pure lies on my part, but I was desperate.

I could never have a normal conversation with him, much less now. So I had to get something across that he related to and could understand. I told him he hurt me so much that I just wanted to stop hurting and be free. He related to that more.  But now he goes around saying "I love you and I know you love me... . ". I have to work on that part a bit more.

I wish i could just go... . hand him some papers, have him sign and move on.

Not sure if I answered your question. if I can sum it up: way too long.

[nevaeh]

This past weekend was pure torture.

H is literally falling apart.  He is constantly wanting to talk about things.  He cries at the drop of a hat.  He wants to hug me and touch me all the time.  He has told me over and over again that he is willing to go to counseling with me, knows that I have an appointment with my counselor this Wednesday and has offered a million times that if I need him to go with me he will do that.

He holds on to me for dear life when we are laying in bed.  I should tell him to go sleep in the guest room but I'm worried about him.  I am not falsely giving him hope that I am going to change my mind, although I think he thinks he can convince me to give him another chance.

Last night he literally started sobbing while we were laying in bed and he's clinging to me.  I finally pushed him off of me and said "you have GOT to calm yourself down!".  I told him that aside from understanding that he is hurting, I really have NO feelings about this... . explaining that is the result of 23 years of being with him and having to continually guard my emotions.  I said that I am completely emotionally numb.  

I have a call in to my lawyer as I need to find out from her what happens if he refuses to "accept" this divorce as a course of action.  I think in our state he can "force" counseling for 90 days.  I know if that happens I cannot live with him during that time.  I cannot take another 3 weeks of this, let alone 3 months!  He really believes he can "win me back".  He says this time is different.  This time we will BOTH try harder.  I told him last night that when he was acknowledging that he has always known he had an "anger" problem and has always felt badly about it, yet until I told him I wanted a divorce he never bothered to think that it might be a good idea (on his own) to get counseling or figure out how to get better.  His response was that, for him, divorce has never been an option and he "thought" I felt the same way (apparently he thought I only threw that word out during fights and that was only because I was mad).  Since he thought I didn't see divorce as a REAL option, then he guesses he just didn't think it was important to get better (deal with his anger issues) because I wasn't going to leave him.  I don't think he realizes that by making this statement he is immediately discrediting himself.  So, he thought I would never leave and he didn't have to try to get better despite the fact that he has always known he had an anger problem.  Now that I want to leave he feels it is critical that he work on getting better.

The other thing I told him is that he has to want to do this for HIMSELF.  If he isn't doing it for himself then it won't work and it's for the wrong reason.  Well, he IS doing it for himself, but in order to KEEP me and the kids, not because he really wants to get better (IMHO).  If he had "gotten better" 15 years ago FOR HIMSELF, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.  But, he didn't, so here we are... . AGAIN.

I think deep down he realizes I'm 95% out the door and I am seeing his panic.  I really DO feel horrible for him.  I get it!  I understand that by leaving him I am taking away his "purpose" for living... . US.  He seems to be accepting his role in the demise of our marriage and for my current status.  I want to tell him that if he really loved me he would just let me go.  If I stay now, I would be staying for HIM, not for me.  I told him this.  I also told him he is asking me to forgive/forget a lifetime of hurt and broken promises.  But, he says, this time it WILL be different so while he realizes what he is asking me to do, he also says that he will be different.  I told him that I AM DIFFERENT... . I AM DONE.  But it is still about him... . being able to "prove" to me (and himself, I suppose) that he can be different.  I have told him several times that he has the opportunity to fix his issues and start fresh with someone else, without having all of this baggage weighing them down.  He doesn't want anyone else, just me, his QUEEN.  Blech!

The more he clings the more angry and indifferent I become.  If he is unwilling to accept this divorce then I am probably going to have to move out of the house with the kids or give him the ultimatum that either he moves by X date or I will move.  This is going to have to happen in the next couple of weeks.

It has been a really hard few days.  I predicted all of this but it's still really hard.

[nevaeh]

I really just want to tell him to shut the F*** up!

He is unrelenting.  He is throwing everything at me but the kitchen sink.

He "sees" all that is wrong now. 

He is seeking spiritual counseling and is asking me for grace.  I told him that I HAVE shown him grace for the past 18 years.  Over and over and over again.  Of course this time is different.  He thinks we need to start building our spiritual lives. 

He is telling me that we have to tear this thing down to rubble in order to build it back up again.  I told him that I have been rubble for years and I don't emotionally care that he has hit "rock bottom".  I told him I don't know if I have any desire to attempt to help build him back up. 

He is telling me that he is ready to change.  I told him he's told me this before.  And he does, for months, sometimes up to a year at a time. 

He is telling me that he accepts everything that he has done wrong in the past 18 years.  I told him he doesn't even know half of it.  He wants me to tell him.  He is ready to deal with my anger.  Heck, I am not ready to deal with my anger... . let alone letting HIM deal with it.

He says we wouldn't "give up" on the kids if they had a problem or needed our help.  Very true... . but they are my flesh and blood and he is someone who has hurt me over and over again despite the fact that I told him that whatever was hurtful and he chose to do it anyway.  I don't have the same tie to him that I have to my kids. 

The longer he talks the more angry I get.  He repeats himself over and over and over and over and I just want to scream at him to shut the F&*( up!  Just STOP talking!  I tell him I need time to do some soul searching to figure out what I need to do.  When I tell him that he goes back and just formulates 100 more "points" to tell me to consider.  I get that he is desperate and I get that maybe he has had an epiphany and wants to finally change.  I am just SOO not there right now!

I just needed to vent. 

[Monarch Butterfly]

I feel for you, nevaeh. Hang in there.   You are strong and keep thinking about what is best for you.

From my experience, which I might add is only a month ahead of yours, this is where he is going to give you all he's got to keep you. My separation has been way better than my marriage, which on the other hand, makes it harder for me to leave. I finally got to the point I had to keep reminding myself what the 17 years were like, not the last month. I keep thinking if this was the way our marriage was from the beginning, it would have worked. He is going to counseling but the other day I found out he was talking to the T about how to raise more sociable kids... .     hello! What about talking about his anger problems, the abuse, the problem solving methods, the core issues... . 

He has changed. But they are short term changes. The tip of the iceberg is looking very nice... . 

Freedom is around the corner. Hang in there!

[nevaeh]

Monarch,

That is good to hear.  Yes, I can say that if H had been willing/able to be like this for the past 18 years I wouldn't be here right now.

I was reading something on another post about how one of the beliefs that makes us stay is the belief that things can be the way they used to be.  I told H that there have been plenty of happy times during our marriage.  But in reality I don't know how "real" those times were.  They were usually on the tail end of a huge fight or one of my threats to leave him.  They sometimes lasted for months, maybe even over a year.  But they always ended.  Always.

I think you would agree that they do give us pause when they start acting how we need them to act and it makes it almost impossible to see why we wanted to leave them in the first place!

I told H earlier today that I could decide to give him another chance.  If I do that, I would be exercising one of my core values... . grace.  If it works and he was able to make permanent changes then it would be the best decision ever in the history of making decisions.  This would also be a great lesson for my kids in showing that we should always give loved ones a second chance (or as many as they need, in this case).  Him making permanent changes would show them that it's worth sticking it out and that good things come to those who persist.

However, if I give him another chance and he eventually slides backwards I have taught my kids the opposite lesson.  I have taught them that it's OK to treat your loved ones like crap because you'll get unlimited chances and you get to act however you want.  I will have also taught them that if you continue to give chances that you will always get screwed over and will be taken advantage of for the rest of your life, with no power to change your situation.

History tells me I'm looking at the negative lesson even though the promise of the positive lesson is extremely compelling.  What to do?