BPD Behaiors...

[arn131arn]

Maybe someone can help me understand this? How is it that our BPDSOs possess the same behavior patterns (push/pull, Triangulation, character assasination, gaslighting, projection, victimhood, lying, cheating, false acusations, alieanation, verbal, physical, and emotional abuse, witholding sex as punishment or control, and threatening to leave to control). How can ALL of these women and men come from so many different worlds, social groups, and while there past may be different in many cases, they ALL exhibit the same traits. How can this be? Is it all centered around that core feeling of abandonment? Thanks, kinda thinking deep today. Arn

[santa]

Why does everyone with allergies sneeze?

Why does everyone with a cold have a runny nose?

It's just symptoms of a disorder.

[arn131arn]

All of my character defects are a symptom of my alcoholism. I can work on those, santa. I can get better rather quickly actually. Why can't they?

[LilMissSunshine]

Why does everyone with allergies sneeze?

Why does everyone with a cold have a runny nose?

It's just symptoms of a disorder.

Understanding this more and more everyday.  Good "catch" Santa.

[santa]

All of my character defects are a symptom of my alcoholism. I can work on those, santa. I can get better rather quickly actually. Why can't they?

That's a good question.

I guess it's because their disorder only manifests through having relationships with others and for them to get help, they'd have to trust others. You can stop drinking alcohol, but she can't stop interacting with people.

Personally, I feel like they should be able to get better too. They just don't though. It's sad. That's just how it is though.

[Moonie75]

There's no logic in BPD, so before we start lets rule any out chance of the explanation including any logic from the 'non' world.

Right then, that leaves us having to exclusively employ only the ridiculous, & wholly illogical to  fathom this interesting mystery!

My money would be on vegetables being at the route of explaining the phenomenon of similar behaviour by thousands who've never met! Vegetables giving off BPD lifestyle instructions at a frequency audible to the disordered, but not Nons! A BPD king & queen residing somewhere deep in the amazon rain Forrest, guiding their disordered flock via transmissions from a magic potato!

I'd bet a tenner on that!  Because its so illogical & disordered, I might be right on the money!


Just my two cents, Moonie

[LilMissSunshine]

Sometimes too, the cause is the cure.  In other words Arn, you got rid of the "cause" (her) and are getting your drinking under control.   She, on the other hand, will never be able to get rid of the "cause" and is doomed.  Like Santa said, she can never stop interacting with people.  You, however, can put the glass/bottle down.    You.

[Take2]

It's the way their brains are wired and how they behave as a result.  They don't process things the way we do.  There is no "cure" because it's not an actual "illness" - it's more of a different wiring mechanism in their brains.  Those with this afflication can get years and years of therapy but it's almost impossible to get them to change the way they process information.  

Think of it this way, all the physical therapy in the world won't change a physical deformity of say someone who was born with only two fingers.  It can help but it will never "cure" it to be 4 fingers and a thumb.

It can help them manage how to better use their other hand and how to manage using what they DO have available.  But it will still never give them two complete hands... .

That makes me sad.  

[LilMissSunshine]

There's no logic in BPD, so before we start lets rule any out chance of the explanation including any logic from the 'non' world.

Right then, that leaves us having to exclusively employ only the ridiculous, & wholly illogical to  fathom this interesting mystery.

My money would be on  vegetables being at the route of explaining the phenomenon of similar behaviour by thousands who've never met . Vegetables giving off BPD lifestyle instructions at a frequency audible to the disordered, but not Nons. A BPD king & queen residing somewhere deep in the amazon rain Forrest, guiding their disordered flock via transmissions from a magic potato.

I'd bet a tenner on that.  Because its so illogical & disordered, I might be right on the money.


Just my two cents, Moonie

Have you guys ever read the "Botany of Desire" by Michael Pollen?  An amazing read... .

[santa]

There's no logic in BPD, so before we start lets rule any out chance of the explanation including any logic from the 'non' world.

Right then, that leaves us having to exclusively employ only the ridiculous, & wholly illogical to  fathom this interesting mystery!

My money would be on vegetables being at the route of explaining the phenomenon of similar behaviour by thousands who've never met! Vegetables giving off BPD lifestyle instructions at a frequency audible to the disordered, but not Nons! A BPD king & queen residing somewhere deep in the amazon rain Forrest, guiding their disordered flock via transmissions from a magic potato!

I'd bet a tenner on that!  Because its so illogical & disordered, I might be right on the money!


Just my two cents, Moonie

Have you guys ever read the "Botany of Desire" by Michael Pollen?  An amazing read... .

I haven't read it. That's a really cool title for a book though.

[Moonie75]

Really?

Do the book back up my theory ?

[Notthesame64]

I don't know, I don't like to label anyone. Whom am I to say what he thinks or feels.  He's still a human being, that cries, worries, bleeds and gets hurt.  I've seen it in him especially when his past floods over his thoughts and he reminisces in all the could be's, would be's, guilt and shame trip.  I've never seen somebody so guilt ridden and full of shame.  I can tell you this from what I've observed in the last 6 years, he carries a lot of weight on his shoulders. He has pushed almost everyone that loves him on the farthest side of the room.  Most of his family avoids him.  He says things to them and me included that are offensive or just plain out there.  He can help it and he also can't help the fact he doesn't understand things like ramifications and cause and effect from the things he says.   I know he's tormented with thoughts of failure, not being good enough, never catching a break, I'm no good to anyone, along with I'm better than my coworkers, a better brother, uncle than anyone else.  Contradicting thoughts but they all live in his house... his head.

To make things worse, he lives with debilitating disease, MS.  MS itself can do havoc on ones mental health; put both together and now you really have a party!

So the logic of BPD is just different wiring.  As a human being, I love him but his wiring not so much.

[maxen]

my w has the BPD bad enough to wreck a marriage and someone's emotional stability (viz., mine), but she didn't do the push/pull, the gaslighting, the false acusations, the alieanation, the witholding sex, or the threatening to leave. the rest of it, yes. some clevertrousers once figured out the number of permutations: 9 criteria, 5 of them for a diagnosis. i read the resulting number on this site once.

ironmanfalls put it nicely, one of the characteristics of the disorder is the denial of the disorder. it's a mechanism to protect themselves form examining themselves. very few have the awareness and, equally important, the courage to face it. that's why very few of them can work on it. a few used to post here (oceanheart and a. j. mahari - read their posts, it's very enlightening).

so they don't all exhibit quite the same traits. they've got personalities too. mine has a large circle of friends, some she's known for decades. but, you know, it still sux. more for us than them tho'. i really have a hard time sympathising.

[LilMissSunshine]

Really?

Do the book back up my theory ?

Depends on how you look at it.  Regardless, it's an awesome easy read... . makes you think.

[arn131arn]

So, they have to be involved in a relationship in order for their traits to maifest? My ex was realy close to her family probably bc she needed them to triangulate. But they are all disordered and have their own issues. But her friends do come and go. So, it's only in relationships, it seems the best way to handle a RS with them is to show no love, no vulnerability and no interest

[Moonie75]

So, they have to be involved in a relationship in order for their traits to maifest? My ex was realy close to her family probably bc she needed them to triangulate. But they are all disordered and have their own issues. But her friends do come and go. So, it's only in relationships, it seems the best way to handle a RS with them is to show no love, no vulnerability and no interest

Yeah, that comes with an inherent risk though... .

The thrill of the chase being fired up again!

I'm not joking! It runs that risk!

[zsazsa]

BPD is a disorder of attachment.

It manifests itself in very early childhood.

The baby has to come up with inventive ways to get the attention of it's mother, and unfortunately bad behavior is what works.

It is important to remember that those that suffer from BPD have a lot of trauma to overcome ,  they usually come from very dysfunctional enviornments,  they are human beings that never had their needs met as babies, children.  They often are not pointed to the direction of help in early childhood.

Please don't misunderstand,  I was unable to remain in a rs with my BPD partner,  but as I heal more fully and find compassion for myself around not being able to help him,  I am finding compassion for him. 

I often read that there is no cure,  but there is help,  but most often people who suffer from BPD do  not seek help,  not having the ability to trust the world in anyway is unimaginable for me.

I know that my ex is suffering,  sometimes I see him with compassion in my heart and I feel very sad for him.  But I know I can not help him and i can not live with the chaos and abuse of BPD.

[Moonie75]

Zsazsa, yes I love my uBPDex, don't mind admitting it. But I have to love myself enough to keep her out of my life.

I've Love for her, but more for me!

I've compassion for her, but more for me!

How it is! And how it should be!

[zsazsa]

I get it Moonie.

I really have a deep respect for those who are able to work within the confines of a rs with someone who suffers from BPD.

I was not in a place in my life where that was possible.

I knew he was suffering,  that is why I stayed so long,  my suffering had to come first,  and a relationship with him caused me a lot of suffering.

[Tausk]

It's the way their brains are wired and how they behave as a result.  They don't process things the way we do.  There is no "cure" because it's not an actual "illness" - it's more of a different wiring mechanism in their brains.  Those with this afflication can get years and years of therapy but it's almost impossible to get them to change the way they process information.  

Think of it this way, all the physical therapy in the world won't change a physical deformity of say someone who was born with only two fingers.  It can help but it will never "cure" it to be 4 fingers and a thumb.

It can help them manage how to better use their other hand and how to manage using what they DO have available.  But it will still never give them two complete hands... .

That makes me sad.  

This is the essence of the point here.  Our expectation of our SOwBPD to be able  to change and heal is a projection on our part.  Yes, we project what we want onto them as well.  For the vast majority, they simply can't change.  The pathways into certain areas of the brain just were not developed.  And even in DBT most of those pathways are not developed.

I would not expect a person with Autism, Aspergers, or Down's Syndrome to change and cognitively comprehend certain concepts.  The same is true of a person with BPD.  They are who they are, and of limited development. The sad and pathetic fact is that I became attached, and fell in "love" with a person of so little capacity.  

My friends saw this from the start.  But I wouldn't listen.  If one of my friends fell in love with an person with Autism and got angry because the Autistic person wouldn't change, then I'd say to him... . time to get into counseling and look at yourself.  My friends said those words to me in an intervention and it helped me.

[musicfan42]

All of my character defects are a symptom of my alcoholism. I can work on those, santa. I can get better rather quickly actually. Why can't they?

Motivation is one factor.

You mentioned before that you're in AA so you're clearly willing to work the 12 steps and do whatever it takes to recover from alcoholism.

I don't know your BPD ex however I'm guessing that she simply doesn't have the motivation or desire to change. I've read that DBT's success rate is highly reliant on the clients being highly motivated i.e. clients who are prepared to do the homework, be honest about their behaviors, co-operate with all the individuals and professionals on the course, work hard.

Axis II disorders are also more problematic than Axis I disorders. BPD falls into Axis II whereas alcoholism falls into Axis I.

[arn131arn]

So, if the symptoms come up in rlationshipd only, we can expect them to bring the same problems into each relationship. Yet, going back to her family, why does it seem there are no problems there?

[santa]

So, if the symptoms come up in rlationshipd only, we can expect them to bring the same problems into each relationship. Yet, going back to her family, why does it seem there are no problems there?

Looks can be deceiving. There may be problems there you just aren't aware of.

Also, they've been around her forever and she's always been like this. They may just be used to it or just expect the behavior from her and aren't bothered by it because that's just who she is to them. Families have a way of dealing with these type of people so that things don't blow out of proportion even if they do drive her crazy. They're one big support system for each other.

[zsazsa]

What they do in relationship with us,  they do with all others ,  inside a relationship of this type.

It's not personal.  BPD's survive relationships , they don't have them.

[musicfan42]

So, if the symptoms come up in rlationshipd only, we can expect them to bring the same problems into each relationship. Yet, going back to her family, why does it seem there are no problems there?

How do you know that she has no problems with her family? Like they're actually going to tell you about it!  

Every family has skeletons in the closet-things they hide from outsiders. You're an outsider to them so they're not going to tell you the truth about what really goes in the family, even if they have a problem with your ex's behavior.

[maxen]

Yet, going back to her family, why does it seem there are no problems there?

(speaking of your own w i presume) don't be sure there aren't problems. my w comes from a prominent family in her state. to all appearances this is a family of success and distinction. yet, her older brother wrecked his fist marriage through adultery, as now my w has also. her father is an abdicator, and her mother, however high her IQ and however deep in her state's history her family runs (right back to the 1600s), has the emotional development of a child. my w told me horror stories of how her mother treated her, and how her father never did anything to protect her (my w). so appearances mask a very disfunctional family.

it doesn't have to be genetic, it can be environmental too.

[Take2]

 If one of my friends fell in love with an person with Autism and got angry because the Autistic person wouldn't change, then I'd say to him... . time to get into counseling and look at yourself.  My friends said those words to me in an intervention and it helped me.[/quote]
The autism comparison is a good one that I need to keep focus on... .   what makes it so difficult is the intermittent reinforcement they give us.  Those with BPD do seem to be completely loving and stable and "normal" to us at times - and it has been that intermittent behavior that has kept me trying and trying.  Of course the longer my r/s went on, the less often came the "reward" - but it had to come sometimes, otherwise, I'd leave.  And then it makes you wonder, is he doing this on purpose?   

I guess it gets more complicated when you take into account that those with BPD are all different with their own other overlapping issues potentially... .   maybe that's where the "does he do this on purpose" comes from when I wonder about things he does and if he grasps what he's doing.  Yes.  He does. 

Anyway - thanks for that comparison... . gives me food for thought... .

[Tausk]

So, if the symptoms come up in rlationshipd only, we can expect them to bring the same problems into each relationship. Yet, going back to her family, why does it seem there are no problems there?

Looks can be deceiving. There may be problems there you just aren't aware of.

Also, they've been around her forever and she's always been like this. They may just be used to it or just expect the behavior from her and aren't bothered by it because that's just who she is to them. Families have a way of dealing with these type of people so that things don't blow out of proportion even if they do drive her crazy. They're one big support system for each other.

With family, my ex usually was in the state of a dissociative personality.  The one that seems most rational, yet doesn't usually have much emotion.  She also used this with most of her friends and at work.  And she would adopt this mode, when I would catch her in a lie, or ask her a question that she didn't understand.  But the Abandoned child comes out only with a primary relationship.  But the mirroring from the Abandoned child can only last so long before the dysfunction begins with the Anger and punishment, and push/pull, and disregulation. 

It is one of the reason why it seems like so much of the behavior is deliberate.  I screamed once, "if you can keep to a schedule at work and be on time, why can't you do it with me when we are to do something with my friends?"  But the sad fact is that the neurosis of having to share me with my friends led her to think I was leaving and her response was sabotage.   

PwBPD have very little choice in many of their actions.  They cheat, lie, self harm... . because they feel it will protect them in the long run.  Do they only self harm in relationships?  Of course not. That's why a significant number kill themselves, and a significant number hack themselves up with a steak knife. 

So when I ask myself why did she do those things, "to me",  I also ask why does she have scars on her legs from when she used to cut herself. And why has she destroyed most everything she has had.   Then I realize a bit that her actions are not personal to me, but just primitive and seemingly self-destructive responses hardwired into her wetworks.    The behavior made not sense to me, and I thought I could be changed.  But it was never about me.  I was just the random person who was there as the willing participant. 

[Moonie75]

Last year on these boards somewhere when I was totally green to BPD... .

Someone told me "try not to take any of it personally. It was never personal! It was just your turn to take her hand, and dance with her for a while".

It broke my heart. Because its as sad as it is completely true!

[arn131arn]

So it's only present in the primary relationship? Going back to the core fear of abandonment? My ex's dad left her with an abusive mother when she was 5 yrs old. But she loves her dad to death today and now lives with her mother and our son. Bc her dad told her he was sorry 20 years ago, her sisters and her act like he's god.